In reply to fireflights (msg # 31):

I'm in the exact same situation.

I believe jase realizes that some people may not be able to do subscriptions.

Jase has said that the non-adult portions of the site will always be free, but if adult content is the only point of interest, then some people may choose not to stay.

My advice is to not worry about it until there is an announcement by jase stating specific plans for implementation.

Just wanted to chime in, if you're going ahead with the subscription plan would it be possible for you to accept payment via credit card as well?

Obviously I don't know all the factors and issues involved in what I am sure has been an extensive decision making process, but is there a downside to accepting more methods of payment rather than less?

Same here to be honest. While I'm only in one adult game, I do know a few people who run those kinds of games and don't have any stable income. While I can understand this concept, not a lot of people would exactly like this.

Re: Credit Card and Paypal:
You can pay via credit card using any Paypal-accepting system, without logging in to Paypal or having an account with them.  (Many places do this so seamlessly, you don't even know you're running your card through Paypal.)

When done like this, it uses Paypal in the same way as any other payment gateway (such as Citibank or whatever) with all the same security and guarantees.


Re: Inability to Pay
I'm sorry, and I certainly don't mean to seem heartless, but everything can't be free.

While you will have access to most of the site and all the same features you have now, adult access will go behind a subscription (even if that subscription is a nominal one-time-only payment).

I know that will exclude some people but that is, unfortunately, necessary.
This message was last edited by the user at 20:39, Tue 29 July 2014.

In addition, it seems that you've all forgotten about what jase said in the final post of the 'A change for the better' thread:



So active users should have no problem in getting adult access for life if they just donate twenty dollars as soon as subscriptions are implemented, unless this has changed.  Maybe some people feel that they can't even pay that, but if you can't spare a one-time donation of twenty dollars to support a service that you use possibly every day, or for many of you at least every week, then you probably have bigger problems than not being able to access adult games.  I personally will gladly pay the twenty dollars if it comes to that.  After all I pay a lot more for other services I use a lot less.  Even if the subscription was twenty dollars a year every year that would still be an incredibly nominal fee that even most people without a steady income could probably manage without too much trouble.

This is correct. I run my own small business and use PayPal to handle all credit and debit card payments. PayPal handles the transaction but the customer doesn't need to set up an account (though PayPal will invite you to do so). It will also default to your local currency or give you the option of paying in a foreign currency (I think).

In reply to Silver_Cat (msg # 37):

If this is how it's done, I welcome it. I just don't want to suddenly be shut out of my games because I had to cover expenses (as a working student)

If this thing happens, would it be possible to make a payment via someone else's Paypal account? I don't have one, but use a family member's to do my online purchases.

Once specific details are available regarding exactly what the options will be for payment, etc, there will be a detailed and prominent announcement where everything can be discussed in depth and any necessary tweaks suggested and considered.

Until then, the answer is ... we don't know.

Out of curiosity, say we can't/don't pay for a sub but we already run/play in adult rated games. Do we just get locked out of them or are we grandfathered in for the ones we're already a part of?

 Well, for whatever it's worth,a I am laid off currently, and this is one of the few diversions  I have. And once they go with a pay system, I am out of luck. But then again, the way things have been going of late, why should this be any different. Why can't you do advertising like other sites for income? That seems better then what you are considering.

 And that part about not wanting to " be heartless" I don't buy it.  Shrugs
This message was last edited by the user at 00:37, Wed 30 July 2014.

Once details have been decided, jase will let everyone know.

That's pretty much the answer to any question that hasn't already been answered in this thread.

As has been stated several times, General Rated and Mature games will not require a subscription.

Well going to put my two cents in here for now, then will again raise the concern when/if it ends up coming about.

My main concern is I know there are a bunch who don't like, bother with adult games. And that is fine, not everyone has to. But even with this, it is treated as such a bad thing.

I have been part of RPOL now for many years, on and off. But it is one of my favorite places to go. With that said, I enjoy adult games for my own reasons and it has nothing to do with being a sex fiend. I just enjoy writing all aspects that I can in a story, and I also follow the RPOL rules and call on anyone in my games who do not. I have also been part of a couple adult forum RPG sites in the past also, and I always end up coming back to RPOL.

Why is that? Because so far RPOL is a safe environment, there is no harassment or if there is it gets handled quickly. You just don't have the general ick of the other sites here, and for women and men of course but I know the majority is women. The other sites are just such a bad time. I know several people who have come over from the other sites to join in adult games here, because of that safe factor. They enjoy it more here, because of how everything is. There is not so much weirdness or harassment here.

What I see happening if the subscriptions come in, and the adults are forced to pay to use the adult section. The adult section will dwindle quickly, to a point where person there won't be one any more. And that is because we would have to pay for the privilege to use the adult section, it will basically force people who cannot pay to go to the free forum sites and deal with the crap there because they were forced out of this safe environment.

I would honestly not mind paying for the subscription, but I know a good chunk of people are not willing or able. So if that is the case, if there isn't anyone in the adult section left to work with then why should I bother giving the money.

Most other sites give extra things for people to subscribe, giving people the option to do it if they want the extra stuff. That sounds more worth it to me, then alienating a group. Which is pretty much what you are doing by charging to RP.

 Look, I am not trying to pick a fight, be disruptive, or anything else negative. But most of the games that I am in are rated " adult"  not because we spew foul language, have  orgies, or anything else so low brow. It is mainly due to the descriptive postings if combat scenes or course language that a character might say because of a scene.
 I don't even come on this forum normally, but this is ...... What's the point of going on talking about it. It's sucks to be broke, I understand it costs money to run this site, I get that.... I am just not happy about losing my  one source of diversion to my current circumstances.  I know, it's my problem, so am done talking about it now. Nothing with change.   Sorry

Please stay calm Bannacor, this has been talked about for a long time now and there is no set day when it will be brought out. It still could be years from now. Everyone panics when it is mentioned, best to just go with everything is fine and ok right now. Let's not over worry anything that isn't happening at this moment.

In reply to prophacyks (msg # 45):

This summed up my feelings on the matter quite nicely too. Going subscription-only for adult will undoubtedly kill adult games entirely simply because nobody can be sure that it's worth paying for it if they don't even know they'll have anyone to play with. It's hard enough getting enough people for more obscure games as it is, and doing this would only further fracture the playerbase until there is no playerbase.

Add to that you're basically taking away something people already had and putting it behind a paywall - that is going to go over very poorly just on principle even with some people who can afford it. Still, it does help with the problem it's intended to solve in a different way than intended - when people who mainly or only play adult games disappear, and there effectively is no adult section anymore, the problem will be a non-problem.

I agree with Prophacyks and Eternaldarkness. I feel like if the paywall is put up for Adult games, you'll just see a bunch of mature games pushing the boundaries into adult games more and more until they're basically the same or you start banning / having to hand out warnings on a super frequent basis. Add that to the people that already have long-standing games with players that might not be able to put up the cash to continue in an adult game since they can't pay, and it's mucking up things for a lot of people. I could understand if this was something implemented from the start, but you're taking a free service that has existed for years and years and suddenly making it pay-to-play. I'm more than willing to see where the discussion goes for it, but I'm worried about what it will do to the games that I run and play in if this is what you end up using for subscriptions. Seems like a really cheap way to squeeze cash out of people. I'd much rather see new or improved bonuses for subscribing rather than what's being suggested so far.

Of course it seems like no one's read the previous discussions where jase also talks about subscriber-only features and what those might look like.

We understand the concerns that keep being brought up.  We have heard them.

But, look, everyone: the discussion has been going on close to ten years now.  From that, I think you can rest assured of two things: (1) this isn't going to go in overnight, badly planned, and as a total surprise to all involved, and (2) we've had a while to hear all the concerns and predictions of doom.

What we've not seen in all this time are any viable alternatives to both keeping an adult section on the site and accounting for all the extra work it takes to keep it there.  (For example, no to invasive on-site ads as that doesn't save us any work and it's terrible; no to paying a third party for age checks since the users would have to fit the bill for that anyway.)

And we see very little in the way of acknowledging that yes, adult will be one small part of subscriptions but there will be more than that to it.

If you have something new to add, please do.  If you have a solution we've not already covered, we'd be excited to hear it.  But really, "you owe it to me because, to this point, you've given it to me free" isn't a convincing argument, especially if you actually appreciate RPoL and would be happy to see it supported.

---

A few previous threads if you want to read for ideas that have already been covered:

• The original announcement: link to a message in "General RPoL" <- Read this, at minimum.
• link to a message in "General RPoL"
• link to a message in "RPoL Development"

This message was last edited by the user at 01:57, Wed 30 July 2014.

Considering how much time, effort and money I've invested in the site for the past fourteen years, I hardly see how these comments are fair or justified.

I don't mean to "single" out your comments, but considering how much I've invested into giving everyone this site for free (including advert free) for the past 14 years it's truly shocking and disheartening to see how quickly people are ready to damn me (and those who ensure the site runs smoothly).

If I wanted to make big dollars off the site then it'd be plastered with adverts and "donate now" buttons, but I wanted to give people a safe, annoyance free, site where they could roleplay... and I was (and am) willing to do it at considerable expense to myself.

The site will remain free, I'm not sure how many ways this can be worded, for all general and mature rated comment.  Those who like to donate will be able to donate via an official subscription model instead, which will give them something they don't currently get -- perks.  Perks I've decided I should give to members who donate as a way of saying "thanks".  Just like there's no obligation to donate now, there will be no obligation to subscribe in the future.

Adult access, like mentioned many times before, is unfortunately a constant thorn in our side.  Not because of the responsible adults that participate (they're awesome), but because of the irresponsible adults and non-adults who insist on ignoring the rules of the site and common decency.  Like anything else in life, society has to unfortunately pay for the transgressions of a few, and RPoL has to do something to control the adult access better.  More specifically, we needed a way to verify the age of a member.

This, very un-sudden change, is a rudimentary way for us to verify the age of the member, not for us to control the content of the post -- the latter is already being done.  We already have to manage adult games on a "super frequent basis", but the proposed change gives us a way of stopping underage members getting access to the adult section (which is an excellent thing).  We're still left with the irresponsible adults who think that rules and common decency don't apply to them; it's a shame it has to come down to this, but this gives them a reason to start behaving like a responsible and upstanding member; their money is now at stake.

At the end of the day we were left with the unenviable decision of either closing down the entire section, or putting in some kind of validation system.  We chose the lesser of two evils.  In lieu of a better option that doesn't put a massive workload and/or expense onto us, I have opted to tie it into subscriptions (or at least, a one-off subscription/donation).

We're all ears for better ideas, but you need to actually invest some time into understanding the history of the site and what we're trying to achieve (the links cruinne just kindly provided are a requirement).  If you do have an alternative then you also need to invest time into thoroughly investigating the solution and ensuring it will do what's required plus not require a large time and/or monetary investment from the site.

 I said that out of frustration and anger, but from all I said in two posts,that is what you focus on. Alright. For my part, I apologize for that part of my comment. But the rest stands. I don't want to talk about it anymore, I am powerless to do anything about it.  So it is what it is.  Sigh

Pretty much what Bannacor said.

(Meaningful text required of me to quote the above text since I don't have much else to say other than what has already been stated.)

I have read some of what has been posted. It can be upsetting to some that may not have seen this before today. I actually posted this in my game and there was some chatter with my group about the topic.

I'm sure this has been said before but to satisfy those that may not have read it what are some of the reasons you don't go with ads for games the relate to the membership OR to drive sale that support the site. Just yesterday a GM on this site noted that he was going to buy some books to properly GM on this site. That's revenue that could be in the coffers here.

Any reason you don't have an online store selling the PDFs to the games played here. I'm sure that many player would buy if from this site in support.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:22, Wed 30 July 2014.

Players need to understand that running a website costs money. I run one for my own business, and it costs me money.

Also, running a website costs time. A lot of people put a lot of their FREE time into running this site. They don't do it for profit or kudos, but for the love of roleplaying. They also have jobs, families and real lives to devote their time to.

What those people need is our support and assistance to make this community a fun and happy place, as well as funding to help pay for the costs associated with the running of the site.

As Jase has stated, it would be easy to sell out and have a load of annoying junk appearing on screen to sell us banal crap, but they have chosen not to do this. They could also sell the lists of email addresses to targeted marketing companies, and again have chosen not to do this.

We cannot expect them to keep spending their own time and money while we all use the site for nothing. If everyone donated (and yes I am aware of the irony that I haven't done so yet) then funding would not be an issue. Subscription costs, when they come in, could then be kept to a minimum or even done for free (you can do a credit card verification check without taking a payment, but it still costs money to do the check).

To expect, no DEMAND, access to a managed adult roleplaying site that costs a lot of money to manage, and then refuse to contribute to the costs associated with running it, is grossly unfair. If you can't afford it then, frankly tough. Either play non-adult games for FREE or find some way of paying subscription charges by making sacrifices elsewhere.

Sounds harsh? Maybe so. But if you want the new PS4 game you have to pay. Want a new iPad, you have to pay. Life costs money people.

The fact that entry to this site has been free for so long is a testament to Jase and the mods and they should be applauded for their efforts, not criticised when they discuss ways of trying to keep the site alive for the next generation of RPers.

Rant over, thank you for listening... :)

I rarely speak up on the forums except to ask questions, but on this particular issue, I feel it is necessary.

First and most important, I would like to say thank you to Jase and the entire administrative/moderator staff. I would list you all by name (you certainly deserve the recognition!) except I'm not sure where to find a comprehensive list of the mods, and I would hate to leave anyone out.

Thank you for the time and resources you have invested and continue to invest in RPOL. I don't know the monetary/tangible expense (although I'm sure it has added up over the years), but I know that you have all put considerable personal time and energy into operating and managing RPOL. You all don't get enough thanks for the sacrifices you all make so that countless gamers can have fun.

Thank you for your constant efforts to make RPOL a place we can all gather and play, and thank you for the grace and patience you show towards us RPOLians, especially during times/discussions like these where it must be difficult to be patient with us.

To my fellow RPOLians, I think everyone should step back for a second and point the finger at the community before pointing it at the staff.

It has been repeatedly stated in this thread and other threads that the primary purpose of subscriptions is not to generate income, it is to verify ages for adult games.

I think the staff deserves the benefit of the doubt when they say that. If the sole purpose of subscriptions is to generate income, they would be the worst business people in the world, because they've been operating for almost 15 years without even attempting to institute a revenue generating process. Safe to say Jase and company aren't in this for the money.

A quick trip to the Chamber of Lost Souls should be more than sufficient proof that other than multiple accounts, Adult Game problems are the most common way to end up in trouble. I would guess that many of the multiple accounts are related to trying to cheat the Adult Game rules as well.

Policing all of those violations year after year, game after game, person after person has got to be frustrating. If the mods can drastically reduce that demand on their own personal free time by instituting a simple check system, I say more power to them!

We have yet to see any concrete pricing structure, so any complaints about affordability are far too premature. Jase has already stated it might even be just a one time fee, or perhaps as low as $2 a month (or even lower). I have a difficult time believing anyone cannot afford $2 a month if they really wanted to. You can make that money picking up change off the street. Buy one beer less per month and you've made that and then some. Refrain from super-sizing at the next fast food restaurant and you're halfway there.

I could go on, but the point is, no one can reasonably state the subscription is unaffordable. Any such statement is definitively false, because no one knows how much it will cost. Until we do, I think the mods deserve the benefit of the doubt. Some have stated that even a one-time token fee is too much, that any number greater than 0 is unaffordable. Well suppose the mods charged a token one-time subscription fee of $5. If you can't afford it, either you are lying or you have no business playing games when you don't even have $5 to spare.

I don't mean to sound condescending or confrontational when I say that, but I have to ask, why do people feel their $5, or $2 a month, or whatever, is more valuable than all the time the mods have to spend dealing with the adult game issues?

And if the mods decide to institute a system to cut down on that workload, whose fault is it, theirs or the people running around breaking the rules? Blame the people who try to cheat the system, not the ones enforcing/improving the system!

Would you prefer the mods got rid of the Adult Games entirely? Even if they did, blaming them would be the equivalent of blaming firefighters for failing to save a city rather than blaming the looters who set the fires in the first place.

Jase and company have been working on a solution for over 10 years! It should be crystal clear that any decision they make is an extensively thought out one that looks to do the greatest good for the largest number of RPOLians. Yes it is unfortunate that 100% satisfaction among the populace will not be obtained, but there isn't 100% satisfaction among the populace now. So if they can't make everyone happy, they can at least make RPOL better.

There is also a simple solution that would end the subscription discussion entirely right now: DON'T BREAK THE ADULT GAME RULES!

Then there would be no need to institute more stringent checks, because the existing ones would be just fine. Of course, people aren't going to do that, because god forbid we all follow the rules of the site that we are guests of. But completeness compels me to point out that blaming the mods for trying to more effectively and efficiently enforce the existing rules is pretty silly, especially when the people who should be blamed are the ones breaking the rules in the first place.

I would be fine if the sole result of subscriptions was to more effectively verify ages for adult games and generate a little cash to defray the expenses of running this site. Personally, I believe Jase and the Mods deserve to have more of their time to do things other than police people's bad behavior. And if it helps keep the site more affordable for them, great!

But that isn't the case, because they are trying to add value to the subscription through additional options for subscribers, because they don't want people to feel ripped off. Which is awesome of them. The point is, it should be clear they're bending over backwards to make this transition as easy as possible, as beneficial for RPOL as possible, and as accessible to as many people as possible.

In conclusion, I understand that people are concerned, and while that's understandable, I do think that Jase and company have earned the benefit of the doubt. In my opinion, any concerns should be expressed in a manner that gives them that benefit, rather than just assuming the worst about a policy that hasn't even been revealed, let alone implemented yet.

Sorry for the long post, but I was reading too many posts that just attacked Jase and the Mods as uncaring, money-hungry, and a bunch of other stuff that was nothing more than an emotional response with no evidence to support such claims.

Thanks again to Jase and all the Moderators for making RPOL the best PBP gaming site!