I don't mean this to nag in any way, I'm just curious as to what the progress behind them is. It's a major step forward, one that I'd be excited to see the site take. Are they in the works still? Are they closer? Do we have a timeframe?

Care to give us an update, O gracious moderators?

Whenever they come in.  I keep on thinking "after the next update" but that thought seems to keep on repeating itself.  So at this stage - after the next update.  (c;

To borrow an obscure movie quote, "Two weeks..."  (I've never looked at home repair estimates in the same way since seeing 'The Money Pit'...)

Oddly that's how long I told my husband our relationship would last. Two weeks.

That was five years, marriage, and one baby ago. He does occasionally ask if the two weeks is up.

But we were working for a company whose motto was alternately "Soon!" or "When it's ready!" when asked about products so ... it may have rubbed off on us.

In reply to facemaker329 (msg #3):

It's funny, a month ago I wouldn't have gotten that reference. Absolutely hilarious movie though.

Can't wait for subscriptions. I will await the next update eagerly, as I likely will the one after that =P

You worked for CCP Jhael?

I remember that their responses to when the next nifty thing for eve online would be Soon^TM

Ha! No, I had no idea they were fans of the same technique :)

https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

At least one more update, Miss Swan.  As always.

Hehe...

I saw the change in the subscription notes and got my hopes up. Then saw the ...soon.

I just got through with a move out of state, so I am probably just noticing something that has been there for a while.

I hope you find the time soon to get it up and running.  Love the site!

Slippshade

I'm looking forward to the subscription thing with trepidation. I'm concerned that it will lower the population for and the quality and diversity of Adult games.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:23, Thu 12 July 2012.

The "soon" is there as I've been revisiting the payment methods in the hope of doing it with the next update.

Unfortunately all I've managed to secure at this stage is PayPal.

Google Checkout is only available in US/UK, so that's ruled out.

Paymate was another option I considered, but that has a buyer fee (3% + 50c).

Neteller was another, but with a signup process required for everyone I wasn't sure how viable that was.

Amazon has a payment system, but that requires you to be signed up with Amazon, so not sure if that will offer any advantage over PayPal.

Having PayPal only seems a bit restritive, so currently pondering my opitons.

Have you looked closely at PayPal's TOS? They are allergic to adult content; every site I know of that deals in it, no matter how mild, has had constant hassles with PayPal and eventually has had to switch to a different payment provider.

I'm in the US and looking forward to the subscription service, so for what it's worth I'd be happy with either PayPal or Amazon.

Does Amazon have the same problem as PayPal with the adult content?

In reply to Metal Fatigue (msg # 13):

Care to share which provider?

In reply to jase (msg # 15):

It varies. You're in the UK, right? I have no idea what would work there.

Have you looked at Moneybookers/Skrill? I know very little about them except that some adult sites do use them and they're UK-based.

I believe he is Australian, not UK.

On a side note, jase, what do you intend to mean with your bio lines? Some of those words have a couple of meanings.

Considering Amazon sells adult products, I doubt it... dunno for sure though.

And jase is from Australia (unless that's changed in my absence?) Servers are in the US... the worry, if I understand right, is about users NOT in the US or UK being able to subscribe.

Never mind, Moneybookers no longer supports payment for adult material either.

I'm in no rush, myself...from the sound of things, subscriptions are looking likely to cause as many or more problems than they'd solve.  Not my site, however, and therefore not my decision to make...

The vast majority of the Adult games I've been in haven't had much adult content. The rating was, as far as I can tell a) for better safe than sorry purposes, and b) so that people under 18 couldn't play. Those were great games and great gamers. I'm afraid that those games will disappear once the subscription comes up.

But again, not my site.
Though, it would be cool if there were perhaps a new category created that wasn't restricted to paid members: adults only (for those who don't want to play with minors) but mature rather than adult content. This way the adult category will be used for just actual adult content, as opposed to my expense with it...which is adult people.

You mean like the Mature category we already have?  GMs are free to set any age restriction they like on their own Mature game.

Can you restrict the age of players in a Mature game?

As the GM of a game, you're free to decide who can join your game, based on any criteria you want.

You just put it in your RtJ requirements.  "No Book of Ultimate Awesome characters, no ninjas, no psionics, all players must be over 18."

The GMs can certainly restrict the ages in Mature games if they want to -- however, I certainly hope the site will not do so.  The moderators have enough to do as it is.

We restrict ages for both legal and ethical reasons involving 'adult content' and age of players.

It should not be up to the site, IMO, to restrict ages to account for user preferences.  If you don't want to play with a certain type of player, it needs to be handled in game at the discretion of the GM/players.

But that's the beauty of the Adult rating--it is an age restricted category. So if you don't want to play with 15 year olds, then you just make the game rated Adult and then everything is settled from the get go.

I mean, I've played in a number of Adult games and only one had any sexual content. None of the rest had anything you couldn't have had in a Mature game. But the GMs wanted to err on the side of caution. Where is the line between mature violence and adult violence? Just to be safe, make the rating adult. Adult becomes the better safe than sorry choice and makes sure there are no minors around. That is how the GMs I've played with have used it.

So what I mean to say is, people already use the Adult rating for not only content but also for user preference. And that has facilitated some of the best gaming I've experienced here. I'd be sad if that were lost.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:25, Thu 12 July 2012.

Trooper: There are some really great adult games out there, but also others not so great. A lot don't have any sexual content (or it's minimal), and others do. It really depends on the game and the purpose of its creation, more often than not. If you want to restrict age but avoid some types of adult content, what you could do (for example) is list the game as adult, but add a game rule that no sexual content is permitted in the game (beyond a fade to black). It should get you something close to the equivalent of a mature game with 18+ players, at least insofar as sexual content.

Adrasteia, the games you and I are talking about certainly exist right now--I've enjoyed playing in them! I'm just worried they won't exist once the subscriptions come in place. Why? At the moment is seems like their are two times of Adult Games: Adults Content/Adult Players and Mature Content/Adult Players. Because I'm concerned that the vast majority of the people who get the subscriptions will be only those who want the adult sexual content and the people who just prefer playing with other adults won't subscribe. This could result in a loss of the Mature Content/Adult games...which is the kind I like.

The point you're missing, trooper6, is that right now? It's up to the GM's discretion ANYWAYS. Yes, young'ns get caught eventually, but if you REALLY don't want to support the site that one time to get a subscription and access to adult content and A WHOLE SLEW OF OTHER FEATURES, then join games who are listed as 'mature' and the GM requires an age statement.

It's the *exact same thing* as an adult game that has no graphic sexual or violent content. Even process wise right now, the only difference is the "M."

I imagine subscriptions would take a HUGE load off the moderators from having to take care of the adult games section from kids because too many GMs (one is too many) let them in, whether on purpose or accident... and you know what, the mods shouldn't HAVE to do that.

Anyone can post an age statement. How does a GM without the resources of a mod catch a liar? (How does a mod catch a liar, for that matter?)

Trooper: Often the games with little or no adult content still have some players who would engage in it under certain circumstances. Others might not, but they're probably not bothered by its mere existence if they join adult games.

I think when subscriptions become active, you're going to have a mixed bag of adult game players, simply because that's what there already is. Yes, a good few games might be dropped down to Mature, but adult players who can afford it will likely subscribe simply because they want to keep their options open or don't want to lose out on games they might enjoy/be playing in.

If players are in it for the sexual roleplay, there are free web sites MUCH more targeted to it than RPOL. It's why I think you may not get a huge shift in the types of players that sign up for adult subscriptions.

Metal Fatigue,

The GM is required to use common sense, and in an adult game if they have any reason to SUSPECT that someone has lied about an age statement, they should remove that person from the game and notify the moderators of their suspicion.  The onus is not on the GM of adults to 'prove' doubt, the onus is on the individual user not to provide suspicion.


As for the steps the moderators use, you'll just have to keep wondering.  Discussions of the method generally just provide a check list of what not to do, and that is counterproductive.

adrasteia1, I hope so! I mean, as an adult, I can afford the subscription and will in all likelihood get one...even if all it gives you is adult access (I hadn't heard specifics on any other extras--and can't even imagine what they'd be...this site is pretty no frills and I can't even imagine any frills to add...it is pretty awesome as it is.)

In reply to Shannara (msg # 32):

Fair enough on the last part.

Suppose that little Joey Faker is believed by GM Alice, who is running a Mature game with an age requirement, to be underage. She boots him and reports him. Will the mods then pass along this suspicion to Joey's other GMs, or post it somewhere? Is violating an age statement in a non-Adult game a site-banning offense? Or is it up to GM Bob, who is also running a Mature game with an age requirement, to catch Joey separately?

Not trying to be an applecore about this, just trying to visualize the process.

Trooper: I'll sign up for a subscription, simply because I've been GMing and playing in adult games for around 5 years and I don't want to stop now. I spend hrs a day on RPOL, every single day, and I don't want my options limited.

I was pouting about it.. a year or two back, but I spend a crazy amount of time on this site. I suppose it's like one way of giving back, though in a way GMing is doing that too.

I can think of a few frills, mostly of the customisation variety. I'd like to artify my games a bit more, add more pictures and backgrounds, stuff like that, but I don't think it's that necessary or important.

There is no official age requirement for a Mature game on RPoL, therefore site moderators would only become involved if the player was also signing up for Adult games.

An age requirement for a Mature game is, just like any other GM-instituted requirement for joining any game, entirely up to the GM to enforce.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 36):

Thank you for the clarification.

  I'll get a subscription, but the only extra I'd really be interested in is more themes (ala Halloween, St Patrick's Day, Christmas). Not that I won't enjoy the rest, just that that's all I'd like to have.

I will be subscribing, even with out frills. But there are a few things I could see as useful, like potentially a brief history of prospective players when they submit an RTJ, (number of games they have/currently play in, average length of time in a game, stuff like that)so you have a better idea of the reliability of the player. I loathe going though the back and fourth of the RTJ process, and getting them introduced to the other players, and fitting them into the story in a way that hopefully makes sense, only to have them drop out in a couple weeks time, sometimes with out warning or notice.

Is there a danger that could lead to player discrimination, and eventually to players leaving the site? Of course. But I personally think that is a sacrifice worth making, because it would make for a stronger, more committed community, and increase the enjoyment of everyone. And for the record, yes, I have been guilty of doing exactly what I said I dislike. I am not proud of it. But I try to refrain from that, and only do it when my pre-RTJ perception of the game differed substantially from my post-RTJ experience, and I found that the game held no real interest for me. I fully believe you should break ties so someone who will enjoy the game can be found, so you don't lessen the fun for everyone with your apathy.

Also, more groups per game would be nice, but not necessarily for every game. I could see that being a payed for extra. I would say priority access to site support, but that does not seem to be a problem here. (Kudos to the excellent mods and admin for that one.)

One thing I hope never to see, and not just for bigbadrons hilarious Lost Souls posts, is the availability of secondary accounts. I fear that the potential for abuse is too high, and am glad that the Mods and Admin keep such a tight reign on that.

I'm thinking most folks would find another venue that wasn't charging but I could be wrong. For me personally it would depend on the fee. I prefer the donation option and that seems to be at least covering server expenses.

It seems to me that charging GMs a subscription and giving them "goodies" would make the most sense.  If players remain free, the site should still attract a lot of players, but (hopefully) the quality and consistency of the games run on the site would be improved by weeding out the games that might otherwise die really fast.

But as rogar points out, the danger is that there are probably other places that many games would migrate to because they are free.  (I'm flashing back to the PBW migration about 9 or 10 years ago.)

I don't know about the leaving part, not if the non-adult section was still free.  I wound up here because the site my group was gaming on suddenly decided to cut all adult-oriented games (sex, violence, etc.) and this was the best place we found to start our game anew.  Heck, most of what he were playing was "mature" rather than "adult" anyway, but we went for the adult just to be safe.  I honestly haven't looked since then, but I recall running into site after site that flat out prohibited games with any kind of graphic content in them.  Being able to play the way I want to play would be worth a small fee to keep things going.

Though I have to admit to preferring a one-time annual payment option over a monthly debit charge.  Especially if paying for a year up front got me a discount.  :)

You're extremely unlikely to get anything like that, simply because

1. Providing you with such information breaks or policies on privacy.
   
   
2. The information would be worthless without further details - sure you could see that the player dropped out of two games last week, one of them after only a month of play, but it won't tell you that one of them he applied to, then realised that it wasn't for him so asked the GM to remove him, and the other GM disappeared six months ago so the player asked us to remove him from the game.
   
   
3. It won't give you any useful information on a player who joined the site a couple of days ago, and your's is the first game he's applied to.  It will just tell you he's not in any games, without explaining why.
   
   
4. It would lead to discrimination against players who may have done nothing wrong (see point 2).

I'm thinking charging GMs makes the least sense...being a GM is hard work! But I trust Jase, et. al. to work out what the best thing to do is.

But a work of love.  Regardless, you are using the tools that RPoL provides to sponsor your game.  No one complains about buying Word or MS Office (well, maybe some do) to do their "work."

This statement is made against my interest since I only run games currently, but $1 per month per game you run might make sense.  (I'm not saying to make it expensive or anything.)
This message was last edited by the user at 20:05, Thu 12 July 2012.

I agree with Trooper. Many GMs put in the lion's share of work, and while it's a game they want to run, a lot of it is about keeping players entertained. Sometimes GMs keep running games longer than they're inclined to, because they don't want to let the group down. I don't think it would be fair to charge GMs on a game by game basis, otherwise you'll end up with far less GMs.
This message was last edited by the user at 20:09, Thu 12 July 2012.

But ultimately, who will hurt most if RPoL couldn't afford to keep its server?  The players can easily pack up and go elsewhere.  Not so easy for the GMs who've made this home base.

There's no need to use that approach (and I find it unlikely that Jase would). It's simply one way of many, and one I happen to disagree with. It's also one that hasn't been suggested by the mods at all.

The plans for subscriptions have not, as far as I'm aware, changed.  They will be available to anybody who wants them (player or GM) and will not be compulsory for either group.

At this stage, all that's still being considered is payment methods and numbers.

I must have missed that whole conversation.  I'm not sure what the actual plan is, just putting an idea out there.

The plan is exactly as described in jase's original announcement: link to a message in this forum

I was kinda hoping for the rpol apparel and goodies to show up. Not only would I feel good about buying bling because I'm supporting rpol but I would be advertising rpol buy wearing it/using it and probably buy stuff for my gamer friends too.

Cost. $1/month ok, $10/month I'm probably gonna bail. Just my take. I really dislike being forced into paying monthly fees for gaming even though I have done so at times in the past. I prefer the free to play like DDO has with lots of 'hooks' to get you to part with your money. I'm guessing that's a much tougher deal with rpol but the merchandising might work. Get your character portrait on a shirt or something. My character survived nameyourgamehere. Everybody likes dice, maybe rpol dice. I dunno, I'm sure there are a lot of people who have more brains then I do to figure out something that will work. Most days I'm just happy to find my car when I get out of work.

Who's forcing you? >.> It'll be entirely voluntary.

Nobody would be forcing you to pay anything.  It would be voluntary, and non-subscribers would still be welcome to game here.

Please refrain from wildly speculating over costs - if you'd like to see what the cost under consideration is, please follow Ron's link above to the original announcement.

Too many people take the speculation as 'this is what's being considered' and they needlessly worry and it spreads.

If jase decides to consider something other than what has been announced, you can be sure it will come from him, and it will be prominently available on the public boards. :)

In reply to MagickalMelody (msg # 53):

Well in my specific case it may be voluntary but if you are GM'ing a game where they decide to charge it really isn't. You can't run your game if you don't pay. That's not voluntary and an obvious change from the status quo.

In reply to rogar308 (msg # 56):

But jase isn't planning to charge for running games.  So, yes, the subscriptions would be voluntary.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 57):

Judging by the article linked on Jase's proposed plan for subscriptions, it would not be voluntary for the DMs and players of Adult games.  Maybe not an immediate issue, but "eventually" it will become a requirement, if I'm understanding the following properly.

Actually it would still be voluntary for them.  Running/playing Adult games would not be made compulsory.  If they choose to do so (and it would be their choice) then they would need a subscription to do so.

(Plus, you can always remove all graphic content and change the game to a mature one)

I'm not suggesting that running or playing in Adult games would somehow become a requirement.  I'm suggesting that the 'choice' of abandoning your game, be you a GM or a player, is not really a comfortable 'choice' to force someone to make and that to many it won't feel voluntary at all.  They will feel as though they have to pay up or lose out.

I'm totally up for subscribing if the price is right.  I'm also absolutely in agreement that you guys shouldn't have to deal with the apparent craziness that seems to be a good number of Adult games.  I just don't think the two merged make for a perfect solution--though I definitely do think that there's no perfect way to deal with Adult games.  I am a relatively new user, and try as I might to get caught up, I'm not.  I've read Jase's plan a few times prior to reading it again before posting my previous comment, and I'm still not comfortable.  Then again: you can't please all the people all the time.

A basic economic principle is that for there to be things somebody has to do it.

While gaming in your house is free there are resources needed to have website. Your own personal share may be a micro amount but it is there.

I'm among those who made a voluntary donation to this site. IT was about a year or so before I did. Figured that for all it does espically in making available a huge pool of players & GMs its good to have around.

One thing they have stated is that the traceability associated with subscriptions makes it safer for RPOL to have Adult games. I'm okay with them protecting this site. That should be true whether you do or do not yourself participate in such games. The contrary is that one would want RPOL less-safe and thus more prone to being shut down and losing all games. That would be bad so subscriptions are good.

Subscription, well I'm listening to the RPOL staff (bigbadron and others). Input and opinions they like but only they will be giving official announcements. Kinda been wondering when this thread might get closed to avoid confusion with said official things.

You wouldn't have to abandon a game if you convert it to a non-adult game, right?  The choice is still there.  You can archive the old and start a new one that is not adult or remove objectionable materials through archiving or moving it off site.

Any chance that those with adult games that have been running for XX number of months might be grandfathered into the first few months of subscriptions?  People starting new games would have to sign up.

That would give current GMs the ability to keep going with their games and decide whether or not they want to pay for the privilege or shut their games down (or just clean them up to the mature level and down-grade).

And as a marketing ploy, it's easier to hook people with a free sample.  :)

Please don't assume that I'm trying to suggest that I want RPoL to be unsafe, or that I want it to shut down.  I'm very happy to have RPoL stick around and for it to be as above-board and protected as possible, but I just don't think that a subscription method is the perfect way of managing it.  Jase mentions it himself that if a parent bought a subscription for a child the parent could specifically ask for the child to have access to Adult games.  It isn't perfect.  Nothing is, or will be.

And yes, if you could convert the game you certainly could keep it going under that header.  But I assume for many there will be a lot of confusion as to what can be converted and what can't.  And since Jase is unwilling to set hard and fast rules, it will have to be case by case, and will continue to give the site staff stress and grief when GMs trying to circumvent the necessity for a subscription to run an Adult game attempt to run it under a Mature flag instead.

I think that a lot of your assumptions are very much incorrect.

Please remember the old adage about 'assuming' -- or at least to give jase and the moderators the benefit of the doubt and assume that maybe there has been a lot of considering about how to proceed if/when behind the scenes.

In reply to Shannara (msg # 66):

I'm feeling exceptionally confused right now.

I've assumed that there will be confusion in what Adult games can be converted to Mature games, and that the Adult trouble-makers will likely become Mature trouble-makers.  I'm curious as to how it's going to go over with players who feel that a subscription will be a necessity.  I don't feel that a subscription is the perfect answer to the Adult game situation.  I'm not really sure why trying to get answers and clarification is a bad thing.

I'm not trying to suggest that no one subscribe.  I'm not trying to suggest that a subscription shouldn't happen.  I have suggested that I don't think marrying Adult-control with a subscription is a great method, but it's an opinion and wasn't intended to be a hurtful or harmful one.

My intent wasn't to spark a debate or argument, but to find some clarification on the things I brought up.  I apologise if that's caused an issue.

  The only players who feel that subscriptions will be necessary are those who aren't listening to what the admins are saying.

It's hard to clarify things when there is no more information available than in the post you've been linked to  - the best time to do that is when the time for subscriptions and more definite details for how they will work are announced by jase.

Right now, the only official (and therefore accurate) information is available in the announcement linked by Ron above.  Anything postulated beyond that that isn't posted by jase is speculation.

You're welcome to state your opinion that you have doubts that adult by subscription is the best way to go.  By all means, offer suggestions of better ways ... but please keep in mind that a lot of consideration has been given to the potential ramifications both before the announcement and after (it's been 7 years, after all). :)

7 years ago, I remember people deciding that they weren't going to run or play in adult games on RPoL because there were going to be subscriptions to adult eventually.  That's a lot of time lost doing something you might have wanted to do because of speculating about something that might happen before all the information was in.

I remember adult access having a 1 time fee option for age verification purposes, is that still going to be the case?  I don't care about the bells and whistles, I just want my adult games.

*grin*  Ummmm...if I'm following the thread correctly, the answer to that is, "Does it say anything about that in the thread that was linked to?"  At this point, sounds like that's the place to go to find out what actually HAS been decided on...and it sounds like there's a lot that still has yet to be decided, as well.

When it happens, I'll worry about it.  Until then...*shrug*  It's kinda like the curving drive coming down off campus, where I went to college...from the time I started driving, I always got the willies driving down that way, because part of my mind kept asking, "What happens if the steering fails right here?  What if you're going too fast and the brakes don't work?" (because if you went through the barricade, you were basically aiming at someone's bathroom wall or something like that).

Lost track of how many times I drove down that way.  Never had a single problem.  Finally got to the point where I realized that worrying about it wouldn't help me if something DID go wrong, and all it was doing was making me edgy when nothing was going wrong.  No sense freaking yourself out about what may or may not change with subscriptions...when the time comes, they'll tell you the changes, and until then, everything is still negotiable.

Where the heck is the fun in that!? I'm docking you 2000 xp. :)

Why deal with reality when we are all playing imaginary games? Next thing they'll start asking us to think logically.

---

I think it's good to vet some things out. Sometimes there may be an angle, approach, or detail that may come in from somebody that wasn't thought of before that can help shape the final solution to be a better one.

How hard would it be to start with Paypal and then add others with a later update?

In reply to slippshade (msg # 73):

I think the trouble is that if they can't make sure that everyone can pay for a subscription, they can't make it mandatory that adult gamers have subscriptions.  And if it's not mandatory for all adult games, that means there's no reason to have the subscriptions at all.  And waiting until he can cover everyone who would want/need to join takes more time, but means implementing the changes only once.

PayPal also takes a percentage of the payment, so keep that in mind.  Otherwise, it's convenient.  I used it for my rental property.

I also used it to pay on a recurring subscription, and it was handy because it was automatic, no fuss.

In reply to Evil Empryss (msg # 74):

Makes sense.

I paid for a summer ultimate frisbee league fee recently with paypal and they set it up so that the paypal fee was put on the buyer/payer side rather than the seller/receiver. I'm not exactly sure how they did that only that it is a possible option.

In reply (msg # 73):

I'm not sure how having paypal only makes things restrictive.  You don't have to have a paypal account to pay with paypal (they will accept most any credit card).  But you can also pay with paypal.

And yes, paypal takes a percentage of each payment, but so does any payment gateway.  Paypal generally takes less than other services, at least here in North America.

By "payment gateway," you probably refer to a third party service provider.  Paypal's fee seemed high to me, but I haven't run a comparison and it does probably seem a lot when the payments are in the thousands of dollars each compared with only a few dollars.

I think, depending on the country, PayPal fees are between 2.4% and 3.4% (average of 2.9%), plus a transaction fee.  Merchant Express has a lower percentage fee, but the merchant pays a monthly membership amount (I think it's just like $10).

Obviously, mailing in a check or something wouldn't have that kind of fee, as inconvenient as that would be to mail.  ;)

Mail a check is IMHO less reliable in an international setting like this. For one bank A country X may or may not take bank B from country Y.

There may be fees for handling the piece of paper too. Certainly expect 2-4 days/weeks for cheques to clear. The fees of one bounced mailed-in cheque can ruin the principle of saving money with it. Every get paid a day late so that meant you bounced rent/insurance/a mailed cheque?

As RPOL is an internet service we do know all subscribers have internet access. Therefore internet payment is a good idea.

I think in principle there should be more than one money handler though. Person A in Country X may have a reason (legitimate or preference) for not going through a particular service.

Secondary methods though ought to be able to be set to forward payment to the RPOL master account.

I was joking, Brygun.  Hence the smiley face. :)

Actually, I did run a comparison about a year ago for my employer.  Wrote up a report and everything.

For customer ease of use and international availability, fees, least burden on the merchant (e.g., no merchant account needed; no expensive security certifications), some other things that escape my beer-addled brain right now -- and no fees that you pay unless you're actually using the service (that's an important one), lack of cancellation fees (another important one), I found that paypal was, by far and away, the best alternative for small sellers needing an international reach and processing less than around $5 million a year in transactions.  Paypal's fee include a lot of stuff others charge you extra for in the fine print.

At least in what I've found by hours and hours pouring over service agreements, security requirements, &c. &c. &c.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:44, Sat 14 July 2012.

You might be right as to small transactions too.  For example, if Jase charged $1 per month, a 2.1% or 2.9% fee would probably both round up to 3 cents, making no difference.  It would only make a difference if the subscription was, say, $4 or $5 or more per month.

EDIT: I should add that Merchant Express that I mentioned above does have a lowest cost guarantee, if that means anything, but I've never used them personally.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:46, Sat 14 July 2012.

The current adult checks work well with the existing framework, but I don't (and I don't think anyone should) expect the moderators to do all the dirty work forever.  It could be argued it's a labour of love; but a chore, even for a site you enjoy/like/love, is still a chore.  Yes the current plans do mean we'll asking for something of value from the users instead, but think about it this way -- Currently adult policing (for lack of a better word) involves the requirement of something else very valuable; the moderators' spare time.

I do not believe that it's unfair to shift the burden after 12 years.  Shift and disburse over thousands of users, rather than three or four.

It's been said that the current plan isn't perfect, even that it's flawed.  I don't believe, and others have echoed this, that any plan is perfect.  However in the absence of a better plan, the current one is all we've got.  I'm aware of all the potential issues and pitfalls with it, people have poked holes in the current plan -- but without a real, workable alternative, all you end up with is a well ventilated plan.

I find it quite intriguing how on the Internet it's expected that the provider of content wears the cost of providing said content.  Users tend to not want to see adverts, nor do they want to pay for the entertainment they're receiving.  Unfortunately generally one or the other is required (just look at pretty much every other entertainment medium, even other sites on the 'net.  As a user I fall squarely into the category of wanting it advert and cost free, but as a provider I know that doesn't quite work.  The two halves argue about it all the time.

Users here have freely admitted to getting hours of entertainment per day on RPoL (and that's absolutely fantastic), but there seems to be a strong reaction if we ask to pay, per year, for what is around the cost of one movie -- which will only give you an hour or two of entertainment, once.

PayPal, and a lot of places, have a transaction fee as well as the percentage cut.  PP's is $0.30, so don't get your hopes up too high about a $1 per month subscription.  $2; most likely.

Though I recognise and understand that many do not like the subscription, complaints unfortunately ultimately aren't going to help.  If you don't like the idea of some of the burden being shifted to you, then you are going to have to come up with an alternative solution -- you can't also expect the burden of coming up with a "better" solution to also be our (the moderators and myself) responsibility.

As always, RPoL will remain free to play.

If it's a choice between $24 a year or having annoying adverts in my game site, I say gimme the advert-free subscription!

That's how I'd vote too.  I really dislike ads, but I'm pretty happy to pay what is, for me, far, far, far less than my monthly cable bill -- less even than a magazine subscription -- for what gives me solid place for my gaming leisure every single day.

I don't know how many other people are in my boat, but as for me personally, I wouldn't pay for a subscription. Simply put, I've never really had success on RPoL in general, as far as playing in games in concerned. So while I certainly understand the the moderators and jase's stance on this (its very understandable), the day subscriptions are implemented is the day I'm gone entirely. I've had a number of bad experiences on here, and I'm not in enough games, adult or not, to make such a thing worthwhile.

To be honest, if the adult games are that much of a chore to police (not that I'm disputing that they are), why not just get rid of them altogether?

Simply have a link on the front page, the game creation page, or something, that says that if you want to play adult games, Elliquiy is the site for you. It was founded a while back over that very issue, or something near it, from what I've been led to understand.

And it would remove the burden of having to police the adult section entirely from the moderators of this site.

I really just don't understand that mindset, and it seems to be a sentiment shared by many who are worried about the change. To me, that is the same as saying, "I refuse to watch the local news because you have to pay for HBO."

If you are not enjoying your time here, by all means, leave(and I am not singling you out, FallenLord, you just happened to post the trigger). I don't think anyone wants to hold people to the site against their will, even if such a thing were possible. But, don't make it about a completely optional thing that has not even been implemented yet.

In reply to FallenLord (msg # 87):

  So you're okay with getting rid of the adult section...So long as everyone loses it, and not just you?  I'm trying to understand this.  It sounds like you don't even use it, so why does it bother you if the admin start charging for it?

Honestly, if the only issue were adverts versus subscription fees, I'd lean towards adverts.  I actually enjoy going to sites like webcomics or podcasts and seeing an advert for something with a similar theme that I really want to order.

Adverts for things like euro-style board games, T-shirts, video games, Amazon, etc. would be appropriately targetted (giving us access to fun stuff we might not otherwise see) and would give a steady revenue stream to both the advertising company and RPoL.

That said, doing something to ease the burden on the moderators is just as important, and adverts don't fix that.

I'm reluctant to jump on the me too bandwagon, but I'm also rather confused about this stance.

If you're happy for us to get rid of the adult section entirely, then subscriptions will have zero negative impact for you, because -- from your point of view -- they'll be gone.

At the risk of repeating myself (well, risk is the wrong word here, I am definitely repeating myself, I can see my previous post) -- There's no obligation to subscribe to use the site.  Subscriptions are, if I may so be so bold as to put it this way, a way for regulating donations and providing those who do with extra perks.

The only few games I'm in now are adult games. I'm not in anything else, actually, and I wouldn't know where to start looking for good games in the non adult category. There's one that I've been in for years now, even if my role has been written out entirely, and I'm more or less of a lurker now. So yes, I would indeed be losing out on them. Not that I particularly want to, but I understand why the mods would be doing it. It is a lot of work to police them, and most of the time, its thankless.

I said as I did because there is an entire site that sprang out of this one dedicated to adult games. Indeed, on their home page, you have to be eighteen to even enter.

RPoL has always struck me as wanting to be more family friendly. Indeed, many of the people in the adult games I'm in seem to feel (at least, so they've told me) that the mods and RPoL staff have never really liked that there's an adult section on the site. They feel as if its here now, and they've more come to terms with it than anything.

I'm just saying that if there are two RP sites, one of which wants to be more family friendly, one of which is exclusively aimed at adults, and the family friendly one is considering curtailing/restricting adult access because its a lot of work, my point is why not simply eliminate the section, and direct them to the other site, where they seem perfectly happy to put in the effort required to have adult RPs on there (indeed, they don't seem to have much else).

The problem in my mind, is twofold:
- The line between mature and adult on this site is confusing. The game I've been in that has run for years is PG-13 (what I understand mature to be), but because of the lack of comprehension about where the line is, and being afraid of stepping over it, its classified as adult.

- Putting the adult label on a game seems to attract a certain quality of writer. I don't know why, but it does. Generally people capable of putting the same amount of effort into their posts as I do mine, and assemble paragraph posts (one at a minimum) without even being asked. Also the maturity level is higher, as a general rule. Not that there are people in adult games that aren't, but I've been in and part of both adult and non adult games, and I can tell you there is a vast difference between the two, at least in my experience.

As for why I would be gone, and not pay for a subscription, is quite simple. Dollar democracy. If you're against a certain thing, say the way Tyson does business, but you buy their stuff anyways, then you're effectively saying that you're all right with it.

However, I do not say this, not having another solution in mind?

What would the thought of doing something like what the Something Awful forums does, and simply having a flat fee? Then, if your account gets banned, you have to sign up with a new account, but you also have to pay the fee again. This provides an incentive for the person to not act up.

Nothing is ever going to take the work out of policing the adult section of the site. The only way to make it easy, is to simply get rid of it, and do as I described earlier, with the linking to the other site.

You could even make it site wide, for that matter. A ten dollar, one time, fee isn't going to break anyone's bank, but it would provide strong incentives for people to follow the rules. And it might free up the time of the people who managed the RPoL donation side of the site, to where they would be able to manage the enforcement more effectively.

Or, you could make it an ad based experience (I've never minded tasteful ads), just like the SA forums do, and then that ten dollar, one time, fee is to get rid of them. Seems to work rather well for them, so why not do it here?

Unfortunately advertising would probably not provide the level of financing that subscriptions would.  Yes, ads work well for a larger site, but advertisers pay depending on the amount of exposure they believe their ad will receive.  For a site with RPoL's levels of membership and traffic, that would not amount to very much.

A ten dollar one-time fee would not provide long-term support for the site.  Once the ten dollars is spent, it's gone.  Subscriptions on the other hand provide that ten dollars on a regular basis.


And you immediately lose that ten dollars, as your duplicate account is banned.

Edit: Also note that not everybody will be getting subscriptions purely so that they can access Adult content.  I intend to purchase a subscription, and have no interest in participating in Adult games.
This message was last edited by the user at 17:15, Sat 14 July 2012.

I second this. I don't play in adult games due to my personal beliefs, but provided I have the money at the time I still plan on buying a subscription to support the site.

Right, but why tie adult game access to it would be my point?

I say this, in full knowledge that its your guy's site, and that you have every right to do with it as you like. I apologize if any of my earlier posts said or implied otherwise, as it was not my intent.

The problem I have with is coupling adult access with the subscription. That part bothers me. The subscription for extra features part is fine.

So why not decouple the two?

10 dollars gets you adult access, and maybe access to a slight more advanced feature set. Indeed, it could be designed to encourage you to subscribe?

2 dollars/month for the subscription gets you the extra features, and other bells and whistles, and also supports the site.

The dollar amounts are variable, of course, but that would be the basic gist of it. Myself, and most of the people who I've talked to about the idea, are perfectly fine with a one time, flat fee for adult access.

It would also provide the litmus test of a payment method. Not saying that it would keep out everyone who shouldn't be in the adult games from them, but it would take out a part of them. And take the acrid taste out of my, and many of the people I've talked to, mouths at the thought that a monthly subscription will be required to access adult games.

I have a hard time describing exactly why that single idea bothers me so much. The only thing I can equate it to is if a hobby shop charged a monthly fee to simply come in the door and hang out and do things with other like minded people. That's the closest I can come to describing why it bothers me, and I still respect that its your site. You can do with it what you like. That's doesn't mean I have to like it. :)

Because, for one thing, by allowing only subscribers to access Adult games, we can use the subscription process to verify ages automatically, rather than requiring an age statement from every player in every single Adult game.

+1

To hold a method of payment requires the pay service to check/agree that the person can enter legally binding agreements. That means checking they are an adult.

Reduces risk to RPOL by having another service.

Even if it turns out the player had lied to everyone RPOL could recieve reduced penalities as they did not single handedly allow an illegal act.

Its also a lot less likely to happen as the pay services have far more recources then our unpaid volunteer moderators like bigbadron, cruinne etc.

Does the adult access have to be tied to the financial stability of the site?

I support the idea of a more robust and streamlined age verification process, if I understand correctly. Most of us would support anything that makes life easier for the  moderators here.

I don't know the specifics, but donations to cover costs seems to be an additional goal of this proposal. This may appeal a different subset of the rPol population, but it is certainly a valid objective. If the two groups, adult-content players and players who want to support the site, don't overlap then the idea of subscriptions for adult access looses some traction. I'm not saying there is no overlap, but it's probably only a portion of these subsets that want to subscribe to get adult access.

If the donations weren't levied against adult subscribers, but they still had to go through an improved age verification process, this might be ideal.

If the costs to run rPol were covered by other subscription types (which could include adult access), then the free-to-play adult gamer wouldn't be turned away.

There are lots of successful KICKSTARTER projects in the works nowadays. Content producers create different prize thresholds for various donation levels. One project only asked their fans for about $60,000, but by the end of the bidding they had collected over $1M in donations. Of course they ran out of the prizes they cooked up fairly quickly and had to come up with more elaborate offerings to cater to the big-money fans, but in the end everyone seemed happy.

Maybe rPol could run a Kickstarter drive to ensure the site remains funded, and some of the prizes can be more elaborate memberships and features.

We already have a kickstarter project, except we call it Friends of RPoL (FoRPoL) and it collects donations to keep the site running.  The prize you get for donating is a good feeling that the site you love keeps going. ;-)

I don't think there needs to be an even bigger burden on RPoL to try to stay financially healthy (and putting together prize packages and presentations seems a bit on the more-burdensome side).

Also it seems to me that it's a one-off thing to kickstart a project.  We're not kickstarting a one-off project.  We're already here.  But RPoL has  ongoing expenses and ongoing maintenance -- RPoL therefore needs ongoing support.


(Note too that part of the reason adult is usually noted as one of the things that will become subscription only is because it takes up the bulk of the site's ongoing moderation.  Not just age checks, but wrangling in content we don't allow and the like.  Solutions need to take that into account.)
This message was last edited by the user at 20:54, Sat 14 July 2012.

Kickstarter, as I understand it, is for new projects that are in the process of raising funds to get started (hence "Kickstarter").  That would not apply to the ongoing support of the site.


Actually covering costs of the server, and for further development and maintenance, is the primary goal of this.  The fact that it will allow more streamlined age verification is secondary.  Of course age verification will only work if the adult gamers actually give something that can be used to verify their age (such as, say... the details they give when making a payment for a subscription).  Otherwise we're just back to checking ages in every game again, and I'm sure everybody would love that.

The specifics of why we're introducing subscriptions can be found here: link to a message in this forum


Which is what we've been talking about all along.  You pay for a subscription and get all the benefits of that subscription.  One of those benefits is that you can request Adult access.

The Something Awful forums have a very different model from RPoL, possibly due to their target audience, their user base, and also their development cycle.

For example, it costs $10 just to register an account.  Further to that it costs $5 to not have adverts, and $8 to get your account name changed.  That's $23 to get what you already get for free here.  It could be argued that you also get the equivalent of their "platinum upgrade" on RPoL, which brings the total to $33.

This all clearly works well for SA, but it won't work for us.  That said -- If you've read the thread that BBR linked to you'll see that we are actually proposing a one-off access fee for permanent adult access (providing you stick to the ToU).

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I've had a debit card in my name with which I could buy things over the internet since I was 13 or 14. Using payment for a service as a form of age verification is broken, IMHO. On the other hand. I don't have an alternative, but I don't see how it will take any of the work away from the mods if they still need to verify every user in every adult game anyway.

Interesting point on the debit card.

Don't think paypal takes debit cards though I have seen a chequeing account. They do use credit card verification on some transactions. Credit cards have done pre-paid though.

Might be in error afterall on the accounts dealing with adult verification.

PayPal  used to accept debit cards in the short term (they want direct access to a bank account).  In fact there seems to be no reason why they wouldn't.  The disadvantages of debit cards fall on the user, so there's no reason why anyone who already accepts credit cards would reject debit cards.

In reply to PaulK (msg # 104):

That's not really 100% true.  Businesses that accept Debit Cards still have a per-charge fee to pay.  In most cases, that fee is greater than the ACH fee that the direct banking info costs them.

As for younger individuals having cards, at least some (if not all) major, developed countries have banking laws requiring that individuals under the age of majority (for contract law, not necessarily social laws) have their accounts noted as an account of a minor.  That's part of why virtually all Adult Entertainment sites require credit card info to sign up for even for free trials.  It's the easy way of documenting that the site at least tries to screen for minors and places the onus on parents to keep adult accounts out of their kids' hands.  Just because minors have bank accounts doesn't mean it wouldn't help site owners from screening for minors.

In reply to erbridge (msg # 102):

I'd expect you would be, and I hope you'd certainly be a rarity indeed if your parents never check(ed) your statements.

Moderators wouldn't need to check every user in every adult game anymore, I've never said such.  This would be a complete replacement for the labour intensive work the moderators currently perform.  That's not to imply we'd no longer moderate adult games, we'll still be maintaining the entire site, adult games included, but hopefully an adult game will only require as much attention as, say, any other game.

In reply to Godzfirefly (msg # 105):

I think that you misread my statement.   I was comparing credit cards with debit cards - and the fees for processing a credit card transaction aren't any lower than for a debit card (in fact I believe that they’re usually higher)

Just wanted to note that per Paulk's comment, at a place I worked recently the boss mentioned a Credit Card cost 10% of the purchase price, on average, to process a transaction. A Debit Card cost .37 per transaction flat rate. (I may have flipped the payments, but those were the numbers involved.)

So the "cheaper" payment method depended on the total purchase price.

Now to complicate things... American Express is definitely higher according to what I heard. Also, all of the above depends on who is processing your transactions as their are different plans and volume related pricing issues as well.

That's one of the reasions it's good to go with a service that makes all the various card arrangements themselves, and then just charges you one rate no matter which it is.

Whether Paypal accepts debit cards is entirely dependent on the country you're in.  It doesn't, for example, accept Interac here in Canada for instant purchasing, which is our nationwide debit system (and which is the much-touted reason why many Canadian banks generally won't offer MasterCard or Visa debit cards -- "You don't need them; you have Interac!").

When I first moved to Canada and set up my Canadian Paypal account, I did set it up off my chequing account here, but it usually took about 8 days for the merchant I paid to receive the funds until I linked a credit card to the account.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:58, Sun 15 July 2012.

Here's my issues with the subscription things:

I've got a family, I'm on a disability pension, and I never know when I'll have some money to pay for a subscription.

I'm in a lot of adult games. Not because of the sex, but because of the maturity level and the types of games. Anita Blake, hard core Scifi, and Social style drama games MAY go over the maturity line from Mature to Adult status. Especially with certain concepts and some types of game play.

As a parent bills come up, kids grow two or three sizes in bursts, and I can never guarantee I'll have a certain amount of money at a certain time. On top of that with only a pension it's difficult to arrange for transfers to paypal, payment transfers, or mail in money orders.

So if I don't have the money at a given time or don't have the time to make arrangements by then.. what happens?

Most of the games I play suddenly are gone because they're adult status?

It's hard to find a place to game that doesn't charge big bucks to do so.
Rpol has been the best place to be because it doesn't do that, or hasn't until now. It still won't be big bucks, but issues remain.
I Rp with single moms, soldiers on duty overseas, and other situations where it would be hard to pay up by a certain date.
Do we lose them from adult games suddenly as well?

If there were alternatives;
ways to make donations FOR other players, and a way to not get booted from games suddenly; It would ease the situation a great deal.

I get money at Christmas and would be willing to donate for another gamer and myself then. Yet any other time of year I have no guarantee I could cover the cost on a given date.

One car breakdown, one sick kid, a busy time in life... and poof games are gone?

Is there a solution to this stuff or is it just one more way life gets harder for those in poverty by life circumstance?

As jase has stated before, he is considering a one-time payment for adult which will likely not be a huge amount, though when you're on a budget we understand that any amount may not be affordable at any given time.

Because adult access will be tied to payment with an age statement, you likely will not be able to purchase this for anyone else or have them purchase for you.  However, if you have a paypal account (which is free), there is no reason you can't make your own arrangements to send money to that person's paypal account (or they yours) which they can then use to purchase the subscription.

However, at the end of the day once subscriptions for adult are introduced, some games may have to elect whether to keep the extremely graphic violence and graphic sex out and move to 'Mature' or risk losing players who can't or won't purchase the subscription.

If the game is in Adult not because it has to be by RPoL rules, then the choice will ultimately be the GM's.

I understand the situation and appreciate the circumstances.
The staff here do amazing work that would cost a fortune without your skills and donated time.
For legal reasons there has to be a way to monitor for minors in adult games and methods for dealing with them when they get in. It's an easier task when you have subscriptions.
There's all sorts of costs for the site, the time you all put in, and jase has done something here I've found no where else on the net.

I just needed to know where I stood in the situation, and where people like single moms, soldiers, and the homeless (the homeless have gamed here through library access and such, it's amazing!).

It's not that I think some miracle or special exception can be made.
You've all run things with a growing gamer community for over a decade without asking anything more than donations until now. I have no idea how jase and you all have been able to hold things together for this long.

Thank you jase!
Thank you to all the mods, volunteers, those who donated, and those who have made this a wonderful place to game!

I would like to add that I hope very much that there is an alternate to Paypal payments when subscriptions are applied.  Apart from my own personal aversion to Paypal, I know it is always frustrating to have to sign up for an unrelated company's services just to get the product you want.

Again I'll say that you do not need to have a paypal account to pay if RPoL chooses to use paypal.  They will process all major credit cards without requiring you to sign up for an account.

In these cases, you may not even know you're paying via paypal, as many, many sites use it to process their credit card payments without mentioning that it's going via paypal when it does.  (Just like you don't know what service most stores use when they process your payments either.)
This message was last edited by the user at 19:02, Sun 15 July 2012.

Someone else probably could pay your subscription fee, but you'll need to pay at least one month at the start, which current estimates start at $2, to request adult access.  As Shan mentioned, someone donating to you so you can donate to us is also a viable alternative.

I wouldn't pay for adult access. I can also understand why people are so worried about adult subscriptions. The only other site that offers adult based games and is half decent is Elliqiuy. However:

Games on Elliquiy seem to not get off the ground very quickly on die very quickly

Emphasis on sex is far too great on elliquiy with plot often comming second to sexual situations.

A one-time modest fee for Adult access would be outstanding.  I don't know if I'll subscribe yet or not, but I'd be more than willing to pay for a once-off Adult games access.

To echo Trooper6's points earlier, I'm concerned that the quality of Adult games will decline if they're tied to a subscription.  I'm in one game that's been running for six years now, I think, and it's a fantastic game.  The powers who have stuck with it have seen our characters grow and develop over the course of all the adventures we've played.  The violence is probably harsher and more over-the-top than a Mature rating would allow, and although sexual content does show up from time to time, it's never more than a post or two, and the camera doesn't linger.  I'm concerned that were subscriptions to be required to play Adult games, this particular game would go away, and in my four years on this site, I can say without hesitation that it's the finest, most well-told adventure yarn I've ever played in a pen-and-paper format, online or off.

Another type of game this policy would harm is the ultra-violent arena game (and I'm thinking of one series in particular that's probably due for another incarnation at some point).  The particular GM who runs the series loves his violence, and cutting it back to simply Mature would most likely suck the fun out of the genre, and I can't see this particular GM wanting to make the change.  And if Adult games are limited to subscribers only, recruiting the players needed to make a large arena game vibrant will be much harder, resulting in fewer matches and fewer players involved.

However, a one-off adult access fee would mean that it would be easier to recruit players for the latter and ensure the former would be able to continue (I hope).  I haven't even broached the subject with the GM, though.  I'm not sure what he'll say.

If the price isnt to steep, and the mentioned 2 bucks a month surely isnt,  i don't have any objections to the subscriptions. After all im spamming F5 every free minute i spend near my computer almost to the exclusion of those way to expensive computer games that give me a 6 hour thrill for 50 bucks.

And another reason i like subscriptions is because people who pay for their gaming are usually more inclined to actually stick around so you might get a drop in those 20 people who apply and stop posting for no reason after the first post and all.

In reply to Mortixx (msg # 118):

I was under the impression, from what jase said, that you'd only need to subscribe for 1 month, and then you'd have continued access to Adult, without having to subscribe monthly.

Could you clarify that, jase?

So are you planning on making the statements explicitly say they are for adult verification?

Also, I think you misunderstand what I meant in regards to moderater interaction. I meant that if a card purchase is not viable as age verification, subscriptions would make no impact on the amount of moderation required. Admittedly, the number of offenders would reduce, but ages would still need to be verified, as they currently are.

Regarding debit cards being flagged as belonging to a minor, does that mean that it is possible to flag a purchase as something that requires age verification? Otherwise, how can the payee tell the difference between an adult with a debit card and a minor with a debit card?

I believe all mention of permanent adult access outlines the requirement to pay for a year's subscription, this doesn't change with the mention of being able to get other people to pay for membership (excluding your first payment).

There has to be at least one payment with your own card/account/whatever that, via some mechanism, describes "subscription with adult access".



Firstly, I never said it isn't viable.  I've admitted it's not flawless, but it's a darned good starting point and indicator.

Secondly, yes it will impact on moderation.  A massive amount of moderation time is due to those who shouldn't be in the adult area.  If you're underage are you really going to risk your entire subscription, and thus your money, on the hope that you won't get caught out?  And if you are caught, you can't go ahead and make a duplicate account and run straight back to the adult area, can you?

I wanted to ask how out of county people could pay. Japan is NOT  paypal  friendly.

I have the means to pay but no mode of payment.

What could you recommend people in my situation? If you can set up a way for us to pay by post office that would be great!

Credit cards are hard to come by and I don't have an American bank account. I could try to set one up on my yearly visit to America during the X-mas season.

I am of age and have friends who can pay for me but that may not be allowed. I am wondering if RPoL is trying to get rid of access from certain countries with this....

Never has a Japanese website accepted paypal. You pay through them and their site with the exception of China BUT they have bases in nearby places such as Canada that will wire the payment to China from there. Its not an Asian friendly site.

I hope there will be a way to work with international dwellers who have the means to stay but will be excommunicated due to the North American/Canadian ease of paypal that we don't have here.

Any ideas?
This message was last edited by the user at 10:12, Wed 18 July 2012.

No, we are simply trying to ensure the continuation and future development of RPoL.


You appear to be saying that you can pay through PayPal, so there should be no problem.  The issue seems to be that Japanese sites don't accept PayPal, but since RPoL is not a Japanese site, then that isn't an issue.

Edit: Just checked, yes, payments can definitely be made from Japan, through PayPal.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:03, Wed 18 July 2012.

In reply to bigbadron:

With what credit card?

I live here and can't do it.

I am NOT China. But the Chinese have bases ABROAD


If you know how to send FROM japan post the steps because I can't pay and never had been able to use is.

Maybe my English is bad and you don't get what I mean.

So can paypal be linked to a POST OFFICE ACCOUNT? If so tell me. Link me. Teach me because right now I have no way to use paypal and by you saying it does not make me able to use it since cash is KING here

No credit card and unless you can find a way to help me link it up or point me in the right direction....I would hate to leave here and I don't want to. I enjoy the community.

Hell I can send a flipping money order to you if you would be willing to cash it in

So left high and dry it sucks for me
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 14:12, Wed 18 July 2012.

I can't tell you how, but I bet PayPal Japan can answer your questions: https://www.paypal.jp/jp/home/

In reply to:

Still need a credit card....still....

maybe I can send an international money order or something because it still leaves me at square one and would be kicked when subscriptions start

I just wish there was a way to "remintance" the payment to you since you are Australia

Travelers check? Still lose since you want a credit card verification. Either way I get very "fudged" really hard due to this (;_;)
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 14:13, Wed 18 July 2012.

or...just apply for paypal and/or a credit card and your problem is solved.

In reply to rogar308:

Come here and TRY that.

Its hard enough to get a cell phone. Most places NOT Tokyo, Yokohama, Kyoto, Okinawa or Osaka MAJOR HUBS don't have such a luxury.

So easy fix but not in the STICKS I live in. I am lucky to get 5 trains out a day to the city

I guess its frustrating knowing I want to pay. I have the funds BUT stuck.

If there is a way to figure out payment I want to.  The credit card thing is hard here. Send in ALL your info (finacial and other paperwork) and HOPE they trust you enough to get a card.

It is easier to give blood than get credit
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 14:13, Wed 18 July 2012.

Please, how about not worrying about it until there is a definite date when this will be implemented?

The details aren't worked out, so we cannot provide answers and clarification for specific questions as to how this will work until they are.  Once the details are in, we can work out how to fine tune where the system is lacking -- but right now people are trying very very hard to put the cart before the horse.

In reply to Shannara:

I am trying not to worry but its hard not too. I am trying to figure out how it works. Unless I have a sham marriage with a credit card card I am plum out of luck. Any single men with a credit want to marry me for a subscription?  I need to try and have a sense of humor to not worry >.<
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 14:13, Wed 18 July 2012.

I'm wondering what, in the twelve years of running the site and not asking for a single cent/dime/whatever (FoRPoL was setup by users at their insistence after they found out I was paying for everything out of my own pocket), I've done to deserve this kind of comment.  I'm wondering how these endless talks and compromises have left you feeling like we don't do everything within reason to accompany any and all users.

If I wanted to ban a country, adult users, or Pokemon users, I'd just do it already without bothering to post in this thread at all, let alone investing hundreds of hours investigating all this.

As much as I want to accommodate each and every user, I cannot possibly hope to have a payment that every single user is going to be able to use, it's just a logistical nightmare (impossibility, really).  If homeless people using a library cannot get adult access then unfortunately I can't be expected to change our implementation, which will suit almost all of our users who wish to subscribe, just for them.  Similarly, and as harsh as it may seem to say it, if our subscription payment methods don't suit a user without a credit card living in Japan, then the onus might be on the user, rather than us, to find a way to subscribe.

In reply to jase:

If I could have donated I WOULD. I love it here. I love the people. I am very sad you took it out of context like that. I was hoping you could find if you could a KINDER method is all. Not attacking you at all. We are not a bunch pokemon users and thats rather hurtful to say the least.

I guess it is saying just because I forgot my insurance card I should not have my life saved. I was just expressing concern and my worry about here. I am not homeless. I have means but never was provided with a way to help server costs ever. I am grateful for the work you do and all you do to keep this site running. Sorry if I could not have showed you with money signs as I wish I could but heartfelt thanks is all I can show with my credit card problem and I know it it not much but is worth saying to you.

I hope I can and many other international users can be worked with and not tossed aside. That is all. I never meant to hurt your feelings or rattle your cage. Believe it or not I am searching for a way to PAY and PROVIDE. I just feel hurt that you think this badly of me.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 14:14, Wed 18 July 2012.

Perhaps this may help: http://injapan.gaijinpot.com/l...anese-credit-card-3/

Mika, it sounds like you're upset, but please take a step back.  jase did not accuse you of being a pokemon player, for example, he merely listed that as an example of "If I wanted to ban anything I could".   And I believe he too was feeling attacked by some of the things you had said.  If everyone is feeling attacked, this can't end well. :-\

But his point is true: If there were anything he wanted to ban on this site, he could, and he would not be here talking to us calmly about it and trying to figure out what's best for the majority.

In the end, RPoL will need to go with what is best for most people.  Some individuals might suffer as a result.  We'll do what we can to help out given the opportunity.

If you end up not being able to subscribe, then all that happens is that you will no longer be able to play adult games on this site.  This is hardly comparable to us being heartless enough to let you die for lack of an insurance card, ne?

Such hyperbolic comparisons do demonstrate how seriously you take wanting to support RPoL, but they do not help the conversation move forward.

Nothing is finalized yet: While we do talk about paypal (for example), even that is not set in stone.  Yet, I would be surprised if Japanese Paypal didn't permit you to link your paypal account to your bank account.  When I first moved to Canada, I didn't have a credit card here so I set up my paypal account to work with my bank account instead.  It was slower, but it still worked.

Something else to consider: I haven't been in Japan for a few years now so I don't know, but can you buy pre-paid credit cards there that are worth two-thousand yen or so?  I myself have used a pre-paid credit card to put credit on a paypal account, so that is also possible.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:23, Wed 18 July 2012.

I don't have a bank account >.< Post office. Banks here close 3pm no way to get it

Post office....taking a step back because I am rather hurt....he may not have meant it but using pokemon users just hit more of an insult but text can be hard to understand intonation and tone so could have read it in a bad voice in my head

I will look up prepaid if I ca find them. Tokyo is a LONG way from me and have not seen them in Miyagi at all. I never seen prepaid cards here. I think that is a very American notion

I wish you luck!  I know I was very frustrated that my ATM card in Japan could only be used when the bank was open, which made it very less than useful -- it's always hard to get there before 3 PM to do all your banking!  Most everything I could I took care of at 7-11 or the post office.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 136):

O_o Japanese Banks sound totally messed up by american standards. However this pans out, Good fortune to those of you struggling to figure out how this will work for you.

Has there been any commentary about what sort of cost will be on a Subscription, when they're avalible?

You understands my pain. I don't have a housewife to run my errands and work 8am-5pm most days.

I have missed the post office and had to walk ALL OVER a city to find a working ATM or sleep at a train station until the reopened.

Yes the Japanese banks SUCK and are a pain and cater to those who don't work normally those hours.

It is nice to NOT feel insane as I was trying to explain this system. I am SOOOOOOOOOOO glad you know a bit about the problems Cruinne!!!

Flarelord messed up is the polite way to put it. It is NOT easy especially when they close for 3-5 days because of Golden week. You better have taken out 50,000 yen or more or starve for the holidays without money

The post office is open to 5,6,7 maybe 8 some places but they are NOT a bank and they will yell at you when you ask them if you can do things.

"We are a post office not a bank, If you want a bank go to 77."

They are not shy about telling you to stop pestering them when you try to pay bills and the banks do it but they don't...stupid Yubin!
This message was last edited by the user at 14:48, Wed 18 July 2012.

In reply to Flarelord (msg # 137):

From msg #115 in this thread, emphasis mine - this figure is not set in stone yet:

So estimated at $2 per month, or thereabouts.  Though that might change.

Maybe it's a little premature to consider this, but would it be possible to create a subscription donation fund for people who are unable (for whatever reason) to pay for one themselves?

It wouldn't help as far as screening for age in adult games, but I think it would still require a lot less personal time from the mods than verifying every player individually. I know that if the rate is $24 or so per year I wouldn't mind paying twice that to ensure that fellow gamers in financial straights could still play. I know that there have been some years where that little bit of extra cash was simply not available.

Just a thought.

If users want to pay for other users to get Adult access, they will likely need to make the arrangements themselves by sending the money TO the other user so that they can pay via paypal or whatever payment method jase decides on.

Asking RPoL to manage such a fund, and then decide on who gets the donations, is a little bit much, I'm afraid.

All this talk of Japan is taking me back to my many years living there.  I ended up with a post office account, a Japanese bank account, and a Citibank account.  (For those who aren't aware, a post office in Japan does many of the functions a bank does, including its own ATM and for paying utility and other bills.)

I highly recommend the Citibank account in Japan because it is international and gives you much more flexibility.  (The ATM closure situation still exists, however.)  Then get a Citibank credit card there.  With that, you should be able to do anything you can do in the U.S., including PayPal.

Unless EvEm is volunteering, of course.

I get what Mika is saying. She would like to pay for adult access (I assume she's a she based on the name) but Can't - at least not through paypal.

I can't either, but for different reasons (like the fact that my SO vets EVERYTHING that goes through our credit card bill and I would not be able to justify paying for a roleplaying game full stop - she hates the fact that I do this sort of thing already!)

However, as I understand it Paypal and Credit Card are only 2 methods of payment under discussion, right? I mean there are alternative methods under consideration?

BTW: Jase you're right. You can't please all the people all of the time. Hell, its often really difficult just pleasing some of the people some of the time...

If we accepted a method of payment that allowed minors to hide the payment from parents (or in this case a SO), it wouldn't really do much to help with the age verification, would it?

Likely any method will require some tie to a credit card or bank account, through some processing service like Paypal which would have the same 'statement' issue.

What about passports? Second life used this form of age verification to good effect. Of course, not everyone is comfortable with giving something as important as a passport number to a third party...

And I don't actually know of very many people who use Passports, anyway. I don't have one X_x;

Sorry, no.   No passports, drivers licenses, personal guarantees of age, pictures, testimonials etc -- at least not unless you're prepared to meet jase and show them to him in person in accordance with his schedule, and probably not even then.

If I could buy him a mug of beer or glass of wine, that would verify my age AND let me say thank you for all of this at the same time!

In reply to Wine Guy (msg # 149):

I think you just won free lifetime subscription?

I wish.  I have to get to Australia first and track jase down second.  That seems kinda stalkerish... but then again, it's what any true fan would do.

All I need to do is convince my wife we really need to go to Aussie-land.

I could go to Aussie since it is near me and near to my time zone AND pay and prove then but I doubt he would meet me. Been planning an Australia visit so I wonder if I could theoretically pay him then.....




I am a she thank you! Yes that is my problem. Want to pay but can't. I wonder if many have my issue of the funds to pay but the means blocks us out and screws us over. You can't please us all I know, but since we are discussing it why not bring up the downfalls of the only methods being discussed. That's why I am voicing difficulties.



Heath VERY right. Very few understand that I am NOT a bank. Never have been a bank. EVER. I pay for net purchases through them or COD (cash on delivery), bills and many other things to live but trying to buy international product is hindered because of the limited functions.

Citybank could/may be an idea. I also live far from Tokyo. I live in Miyagi (If you don't know where it was where the 9.1 eathquake and tsunami hit you all heard on the news), 8 hours away by night bus or 20,000 yen away by bullet train. 2 hours BUT I would overspend to get there.

I will try to take time off to get a bank account started and try to beg for a credit card. May work if I am offering a link to my money. Begging here can sometimes work!
This message was last edited by the user at 21:43, Wed 18 July 2012.

Yeah, Citibank might be hard if you're not in Tokyo.  You might want to see about applying for a credit card online.

Going to try rakuten. I shop so much online I wonder if they would give me one since I COD so much they know I have money. It is a pain. Many friends bought cars in cash. I am nor scared to carry thousands in cash but getting a credit card is a pain in the bum!

If only I could mail a travelers check. I can get one of those easily!

In reply to Mika (msg # 154):

*a voice issues from a shadowy figure in a dark alley*

Psst, hey buddy... wanna buy a subscription?  :p

Don't stress too much about it at this point, Mika.  When the time comes, and they actually have hard-and-fast rules for how to subscribe, then you can try to figure out how to work around your country's crazy banking situation.

In the mean time kick back, relax, and game on as if you never read this thread.  No sense worrying about it at this point.

Besides, everyone knows the world will end in December of this year anyway.  Maybe the subscriptions will be the trigger for that!  *scratches head*
This message was last edited by the user at 23:56, Wed 18 July 2012.

The thing is, no one knows 100% how it will work, it's still being formulated, and has been for the last several years.

There is nothing to indicate that it will happen in the next few years either.

There really is no reason, in the short-term, to worry about your adult access being taken away. Once the system has been finalised by jase, and a specific date for the system going live has been given, then you'll know what the state of play is, and what methods of payment will be available.

In reply to Evil Empryss (msg # 155):

Gotta love how crazy it is. I am still looking for a way to get a credit card or may just date an oyagi with good job to get me one in exchange for being his trophy girlfriend LOL

If the world ends take China or Russia first J/K. I have love for them. Srill bitter about Russia trying to take our northern islands...

In reply to MILLANDSON (msg # 156):

I am anxiously waiting. If I can get a credit card I may think of what I want to use it for....and if I have to get in in American dollars or Japanese yen

@Mika: So how do you pay for internet access now?

In reply to rogar308 (msg # 158):

In Japan, you can pay utilities at the post office, or through some shops like 7-11. Most people just take their bill and the right amount of cash, and get it taken care of there.

In fact, you can pay most bills that way.  Things like online and catalog order businesses nearly always operate COD.  Unless you regularly leave the country, you actually don't need a credit card for anything, and they are a lot harder to obtain than they are in the U.S. or even in Canada/Europe.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:05, Thu 19 July 2012.

In reply to rogar308 (msg # 158):

It is included in my rent. I live in a Leo Palace. An apartment that is easy to move in and out of since job relocation happens a lot.

I pay my bills at Lawson's. In cash with the barcoded bill.

You can pay 99.9999% of your bills at convenience stores and if not you go to the main office. Example water/gas bill at the offic if you are late or in a tiny town.


I COD EVERYTHING and pay the delivery man/woman

Ah, I forgot about Lawson!  It was a shock to see them in Japan since all the Lawson in Ohio disappeared when I was around 8 years old.  Neat!  :-)

Anyway, credit cards are so easy to get in the US that it becomes very hard to see how they're more difficult elsewhere, especially places that, institutionally, do not like to have consumer debt.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 161):

You had a Lawson's?!?!?!


I know Mister Donuts was created in the USA.

For now I am looking into credit cards to see if they will give me one. Summer is soon and I plan to see if 77 bank will have options. I may look into getting an American card....wonder if they will mail it to me here!

If anything, credit cards seem to be even more prolific here in Hong Kong.  It wouldn't be the mall on the weekend without someone hawking a new credit card.  Credit card debt is pretty rare, though, even with people owning as many cards as folks do in the States.

We can pay bills at 7-11, too, but it's generally by debit card (ETS), and Visa Paywaves are everywhere.

Hm - maybe Jase can finangle a deal so we can pay for subscriptions at 7-11 and Circle K.  =)

In reply to rogar308 (msg # 158):

I would usually pay my bills when I bought a sandwich for lunch at the 7-11 in Japan.

My wife got government subsidy money for some things, for which we had to have a yubin (post office) account, so that was another way to pay for bills.

Japan is a cash country.  It was not uncommon for me to walk around with over $1000 in cash in my pocket there at any given time.  People don't use checks (though some businesses do).  Direct transfer of money (wiring) between bank accounts is also very common.  Bill collectors will often come directly to your front door like salesmen, especially the TV guy.

Mister Donuts in Japan, as you probably know, makes donuts very differently from the U.S. due to the aversion to sweet food in Japan.  Denny's is also very different.  I remember buying a "McCurry" from McDonald's there -- never saw that in the U.S. either.  Funny, I never even knew Lawson's was from the U.S. because I've only seen them in Japan.  (I used to go to TGI Fridays and Tony Roma's a lot because those were the only places I could get Ranch dressing.)  Oh, the days...

This thread has wandered pretty far off track now ... perhaps it's time to open a thread in Community Chat to discuss the broader topics of cultural differences and leave this one for questions specific to subscriptions, if there are any more than haven't already been answered with 'it hasn't been determined yet, but we'll let you know when it is.' :)

Yeah don't worry I'm not looking for any special consideration. In fact I'm beginning to like it here so much I'm seriously considering taking out another credit card without my SO knowing about it.



I guess there doesn't seem to be that many downfalls to the majority of people :-(



So what about a bank transfer then, Mika? Is that possible for you?


Edit: Just realised that last question was already answered.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:05, Fri 20 July 2012.

To do that, RPoL would have to have a destination bank account to wire money to and distribute that account number.  I'm guessing that's probably not going to happen.

In reply to slartybadfast (msg # 166):

It just sucks that I would miss out...I will find away to do this...now to find a lonley old man with a credit card I can use LOL

In reply to Mika (msg # 168):

Subscriptions have been in the works for a long time.  I wouldn't go looking for the old guy until jase gives something more definite, like a date, else the old guy might die and his credit card with him, before then!  LOL

Yes but he'd probably die happy. Penniless, but happy. ;-)

In reply to slartybadfast (msg # 170):

Hey, I'm kinda old...

In reply to slartybadfast (msg # 170):

I am not THAT evil!! The older they are the more experience they have right? Not THAT experience I am talking about credit history :P

Brianna you are SOOO right!

Oh Tcost SHOOSH! :P
This message was last edited by the user at 04:29, Thu 26 July 2012.

Besides the older they are the better the chance of you getting into their will fast. ^_^;

I prefer SMBC banking in Japan.
It's the best for non-resident Japanese and foreigners.
Tried a couple of others, but they completly defeated the purpose of having a banking account in some way or another.

I just thought voice my concerns on the subscrition and tie age vertification for it. Firstly in my case I cannot use any credit card until I pay a debt which at moment burns all my credit credentials; in short I cannot pre-order, I cannot take loan and most of all; cannot take any sort credit card. Not even pre-paid one (nor sure our banks even provide one).

So PayPal is out of option for me. I tried use bank account directed PayPal but it was bitchy business until they slammed a update where they refuse (somereason) connect PayPal to any bank accounts (at least in Finland or what my mom said when she checked it).

Now, the debt is two thousand euros, and it stays that way until I get find employment as both my parents are retired with very low retirement money and have lots medical expenses (plus bills, even 90% of my money goes for them already). So I cannot loan from them to cover cost of the loan and also both my parents had lost credit credentials years ago and plan never pay them (as they cannot in present situation; again likely once I get work I pay their debts so they can pre-order stuff again).

Now that my personal case has been said now comes my problems with whole payment and credit card business. Firstly Rpol does not advertise itself as porn site. So if kid loans daddy's credit card to pay subscrition for Rpol it does not register as 'adult entertainment' site so far as I know. It just looks very small subscrition for added perks so kid can outright lie daddy about details what said subscrition gives.

Now as said system is not perfect and even if kid is caught by parents the blame would not fall on Rpol for allowing minor see adult stuff, it kind washes Rpol's hands off from whole affair and so cannot targeted with legal actions what would come from such by angry parents. As the only fault is the parent who let kid use credit card payment to lie Rpol moderators and admins.

Now, my own proposal instead of credit payment is exact same one as it's used on Elliquiy; each and every member who wants participate in adult content must be screened by admins and moderators. In elliquiy is 'doormat' thread where Elliquiy candidates make their posts as visitors and then site mentors, admins and moderators talk with them. Accept process with each invindual varies by 2 days to a week.

However, this process is not long because we check ID's or such (at least far as I know but jase could ask moderators from Elliquiy how they exactly decide when someone is in and when someone is banned, as seen folks banned off hand without inviting them in), but by talking with the invinduals to get measure of their maturity and behavior. It's a social process.

Anyways, once screening process is over then person is taken in and then this site admins or moderators do not need stalk person to each and every game as the adult game features are opened only to those who had been screened out. Now besides age statements and such a certain behavior is expected from said adult; being stalker, being offensively rude or otherwise unpleasant person, will get person banned from both adult side of Rpol and from Rpol itself. Now to make things easier on admins/mods is that if they elect few screened members to mentors; basically members which have willingly taken burden to help in screening process (they have no mods/admin rights, just fancy extra title under their user name). Mentors also work the 'stalking' process where they watch person behaves well and is indeed mature as age statement would say so. So even if in start the doormat thread is going to be massive (and likely take weeks for mods/admins to screen everyone) but overtime it would become easier.

What comes to tracking people who re-apply Rpol with new email and new user name, I am not exactly sure of this but I could swear I have heard about services or programs which allows track person's computer IP address. Now this address can be changed but able to change it you need a certain form of education to do it without screwing up your computer (like major way as it can endanger computer for viruses and screw up lots of programs in there who check the IP).

So jase (or a program) could attach a IP address to each user and if user gets banned then he can lock said IP even connecting to the site at all. Of course net cable and modem has IP code also but modem IP code can change daily, while computer's own IP address which locates it to specific network area is harder to change without kicking your computer to cyberspace where it cannot connect to anything (it would be same as lift train off the tracks and it no longer moves anywhere as it's in off the tracks).

Then if anyone screens or conceals their IP address anyway with third party programs (you know how do it youtubers), then simply Rpol site can ban any IP which is uncertain or not verified. Now irony; I would had said also few kids even know why they are banned from sites (until they study bit about computers), but I just told the reason -_- .

Then third and more sci-fi sort of idea is hope in near future is developed a cross nation crossing workable biometric identification devices which can be applied to computers and use it to identify yourself both biometrically and electrically. I doubt any kid can change their DNA structure or color of their eyes.

Anyways sorry for the long post but I tried my best think a solution which would not involve me start panic and get extra stress to find work (I am stressed as I am already as being poor sod sickens me every day). Studying atm computing and become a datanome but my graduation is now around 7-8 months off and gods knows do I find work even then (have educated in two different professions before already).

Oh, also a plus once you get money involved in Rpol then any tensions regarding bans and such would rise and it would results people become a more upset and more aggressive about their rights as members or as subscribers.

I just fear subscrition creates a huge pit between free players and subscribers over time and the subscribers becoming similar like WoW players are. Also note overall being 18 is far too young considered 'mature' and some people are never 'mature' even in forties or past it.

So that's why I had suggestion for perma ban for those who act bad once they had been admitted to adult side of Rpol, despite are they kids or adults. But so far as I know that rule kind of already exchists in policy rules (a general civility and such).

Yet given the alternatives using information connected to a legal responsibility of payment established by multi-national companies is a safer route for RPOL.

simple: The are far more likely to be okay if they have a credit card.

If court action ever erupted for minor access RPOL has at least a defence of the reasonable assumption that the mega corporation credit card company was also dupped.

simple: If they fooled Mastercard what could you expect of a small company.

Or also another idea; if we go for screening process and you fear your getting overloaded.....why not ask Elliquiy help in said process? Many Elliquiy members are already members in Rpol and I am sure they would be glad to help Rpol get adults screened to adult side of Rpol.

Or if the process how mods/admins in Elliquiy confirm people before they are accepted in you could ask members who had been accepted to Elliquiy and had been long time members there (and so confirmed they are adults) then you can combined the user profiles.

Kind of cooperation between two sites which are related to each other as Elliquiy was born off from Rpol and on same ideals but has more looser rules regarding stuff what Rpol is more stricter about. I somehow imagine Rpol as big old (past thirties) firm mannered adult while Elliquiy as wild young adult somereason O.o

In reply to Brygun (msg # 176):

Same way people can be okay if they got passports, driving licenses or other cards which only adult person can have. So why involve money and credit cards specifically?

Overall this discriminates all who do not have credit card and this is reason why there is so uproar about it. Any discrimination is viewed negatively by general public, may the reasons be any, even good ones. True most have credit cards but as I told you I have my issues about it. No doubt there is more likes me and Mika who have same problem but they just do not know come here discuss about it or do not care for it.

I am ready to do anything to pay, prove or anything else to do so I am allowed to be adult side of Rpol but I simply cannot go ask get credit card and use paypal for it. You need alternatives before you launch this and I know jase is looking. I offered some of those in my post above. Credit cards always ask legally proven secure income, and I do not have that but I get money reliably easy occassions and I can pay. But because lack of job I cannot get credit card.

Also one things what I learned as datanome; any identity vertification is flawed and have loopholes and any breaches just reduce credibillity (and increase paranoia) of said system. But combine 2-3 together and you get more solid package. So besides credit card there must be something else top of that before it can turn secure way prevent minors from adult side of Rpol. Stragedy wise that is. Credit card works as one the ways and it's done by third party; the credit card company and it's called electric signature.

So think other universal companies which can provide said electric signatures if third party options are only options to allow get to adult side. Altough trick which works to fool electric signature works against mostly all same kind vertification methods.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:43, Fri 28 Sept 2012.

We have already considered the options for security and age verification, thank you.  Using another gaming site to do age verification for us is not, in any way, a viable option, as it would mean passing account details and personal information over to them.

We are more likely to use a professional company, which specialises in that sort of thing as part of their business.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 179):

Which is good, because doing the first of those would, in fact, be illegal in many regions/countries - the EU (due to data protection laws, etc), of which Finland is a member (for Kazzaroth's benefit), for starters...

So yea, it could never work that way anyway.

I would SOOOOOOO not post my passport details for any website service!

Credit card companies already provide web connections with elaborate security schemes. They are still the best option.

Discrimination really doesn't apply to a chosen situation like having gotten into elaborate debt.

The plans call for many RPOL services to still be available without subscriptions. It is things like Adult access where it will be needed.

A debt which I was forced to take or else face situation which is lot worse than being in debt. Plus years ago did not think I do not need the credit credentials on anything until Rpol started talk about subscrition and credit cards.

But even if my situation is chosen one but Mika's case it's not chosen one but because of country laws. There may be other spots and situations where person cannot get credit card some other reasons too. They may be few but it does not remove notion that starting use of CC will make people feel discriminated. But as jase earlier said he cannot please everyone but just pointing out why people may be upset about it.

I just feel using of CC does not anyway remove or negate the problem about minors getting to adult side of Rpol. It just adds a extra hurdle for those who want and can be genuinely participate in adult games (those who are determined to cheat, will find way to continue cheating effiently). Using CC as means for age vertification just washes some responsebillity off from Rpol monitor the ages of the members and only investigate if there are some suspicious folks around.

Also if thinking it prevents return of banned players; what if they loan again another CC with new user name? Of course repeat of the offense is long as list of friends who will loan CC for such purpose (friends which are not in Rpol already that is).

It just feels to me it just hinders players more than benefits them :/. It benefits Rpol to reduce pressure on mods/admins but does not solve the situation good as many think of it (or I may be just plain pessimistic who believes no solution which is not solid will not work long run).

As said I am nothing against subscrition to get extra features and for support Rpol continuity. But when it starts hinder my enjoyment in site then it comes issue and I think quite few feel like that. I just wonder what is so different between Rpol and Elliquiy. Elliquiy has never nor plans to use CC as form of age vertification (it has donation function like Rpol has for updates and upkeep of the site). Elliquiy is very friendly community where everyone is mature and speak civilly (even when disagreements occur or if people do not like each other).

Rpol is family-friendly where Elliquiy is friendly to mature folks. So far as I know there is no elaborated scheme how ID mature folks into the site (besides doormat threads). So would not Elliquiy end up trouble if they had minors there or what is different between Rpol and Elliquiy which results in Rpol needing CC for age vertification to minor side feature of site, where Elliquiy does not?

if Elliquiy does use method how ID for sure who are mature and who are not before they are accepted, then why not use same method or why same method cannot be used?
This message was last edited by the user at 21:53, Fri 28 Sept 2012.

Then perhaps the solution is to game on RPoL those games that you want to play that are not adult, and take the adult gaming to Elliquiy.

Quite frankly, I suspect that Elliquiy's method is no less restricting to some players who are legitimately adult and it requires a great deal of quite a few people's time and I suspect it does little to verify who is adult -- though it might limit those who don't 'act' adult more efficiently than RPoL.  It also takes a lot of time to accomplish on the part of the volunteers.

At this point, I suspect that if RPoL does anything further to verify adult access, it will be through paid subscription.  I believe we're all aware that it may impact some people negatively, but so will ANY method chosen.

In reply to Shannara (msg # 183):

So, by your statement can be taken 'if not happy to use CC ID in Rpol go play with Elliquiy'. Then all who want play adult move over to E than bother to pay for said feature even if they are legitimate adults who have CC. Some would use subscrition to support Rpol site, but population in adult side of Rpol would drop dramatically and move gaming activity where it is less troublesome start it if they get accepted to another site which has years of experience running those games (all adult games do not die in E and all are not about sex either altough there is general emphasis for it, drop percentage is around same as in Rpol). Not to mention massive community in Elliquiy so there would be no lack of players either.

Another way reduce the weight of moderators is simply remove alias tags from players in different games. One the reasons it's stressful to monitor is because you need check games where is same person in ten others but under different characther name correct?

Would load be easier if all use their Rpol username and post age statements to single location and given access to adult side of Rpol? So if they are found to be fake they can be knocked off from all games once? Or is there reason why process of age statement must be repeated (instead linear whole process happen only once) every game and every game PM's checked the age statements are found?

  You could choose to take it that way, but that's not what was actually said.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:26, Fri 28 Sept 2012.

Nope - that would probably break RPoL's privacy policy, as it would allow you to trace them between games.



Nope - still relies on people saying they are a certain age and potentially lying, which is what the new system is trying to avoid. If you have the potential to lose out on your subscription by being banned for lying about your age, you have less of an incentive to lie, than if you are going to lose no money. Equally, it's harder to lie when you have to provide payment details, as you would either have to have a card to begin with (unless you use the card of another person, but there aren't many ways around that).

This has all pretty much been decided years ago - I doubt you'll be able to come up with a suggestion that was not already discussed back then, and rejected.

Actually I, and many others, have voluntarily sent money into RPOL without it having anything to do with adult access.

You are always free to stay and enjoy or spend time at other places without the rule X that one doesn't like. We'd prefer people to stay and play. It is voluntary, both ways.

---

on moderators tracking people

People here on rPOL have one and only one RPOL ID. The game database stores that. As a GM I can pull up my list of players to ban, reassign or whatever all a player's characters in one fell swoop.

The moderator database can zap a RPOL login. The chamber of lost souls forum lists various people with site bans.

The mods here though don't inform or auto inform each game the person is in. Once a person's RPOL login is zoinked they can't get into the site anymore.

When doing a RTJ to an adult game you are already require to put in the RTJ thread your age statement to the GM. The GM is required not to give you any characters until that is done. The RTJ thread will show your RPOL login ID.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:00, Fri 28 Sept 2012.

For what its worth I think whatever happens you will lose some adult gamers if you force them to pay in order to continue to play adult games.

I don't fully understand the obsession with anonymity here. I have an account on Elliquiy and can still have my RL identity kept seperate from the Elliquiy one.

I think I'm gonna be unhappy when I have to stop playing adult games here. I find both sites have their pros and cons. As far as adult gaming goes Elliquiy has some massive pros. But rpol has one HUGE pro:-

Elliquiy:-

Pros:-

1. You can tell if a writing partner is male, female or transexual
2. You can see their overall posting history to see what their writing style is like.
3. If they fill in their ons and offs you know immediately how likely they are to be interested in your ideas
4. You know if they are active and online so that you don't have to wait for your timezones to converge.
5. There is much greater freedom of expression on Elliquiy and far less fear of ridicule and finger pointing.

Cons:-

1. Group games occur in a single thread and so it makes group gaming difficult.
2. Group games don't seem to last very long before dying.

Rpol:-

Pros:

1. The absolutely amazing gaming interface and the roleplaying tools provided by the site

Cons:

1. Anonymity to the point of ridiculousness

2. Mods sometimes can be a bit anal (I know that may not be a popular view but IMHO it is an accurate one).

3. Bloody subscriptions coming for adult games


I put the pro for RPOL in bold because its such a big pro! Likewise for con 3.

If I was being totally honest if Elliquiy had the same functionality in terms of its roleplaying tools and site structure then I would not be a member of rpol.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:19, Fri 28 Sept 2012.

This message was deleted by the user at 02:47, Sat 29 Sept 2012.

Which is why its so annoying that RPOL is such a good site, technically speaking. The internet is screaming out for an RPOL style site that is adult friendly.

Edited at the request of Purple.
This message was last edited by the user at 08:33, Sat 29 Sept 2012.

In fact. If Jase sold a copy of the site software to someone willing to host a rpol based site as more adult friendly then he could make a load of money off the sale of the site "Software" and the corresponding support / development package that came with it.

Just a thought!

This message was deleted by the user at 02:46, Sat 29 Sept 2012.

I can almost certainly guarantee that that will never happen, though - neither would I want it to.

Please do not assume because someone here says that "jase and the mods don't want to host adult content" that it is true.

If we did not want to host it, it wouldn't be here at all.  We don't host it just to be nice, and in fact some of the mods themselves play and run adult games here.

The fact that we do have an adult terms of use is because we wish to be as responsible as possible while hosting it, and because while we're willing to host some adult content, there is other adult content we're not willing to host (or deal with moderating).

If we did not want to host adult content, the adult games policy would simply read: "No adult content is permitted on this site."  Since it doesn't, it follows that we do want to be able to continue to host adult content.
This message was last edited by the user at 02:24, Sat 29 Sept 2012.

I apologize.  I was simply paraphrasing.  Nevermind.

Incorrect.  Age statements are always posted under the user name, not the character name.  The character name is irrelevant.  Additionally, requiring players to appear in games under their user name would spoil many other features of the site (like the ability to play multiple characters in the same game without people knowing it's the same person, for example, or the ability of a GM to play a PC secretly).

Then there's the whole immersion thing - which is more atmospheric, a barbarian in a fantasy game called Hro'gar the Bloody Axe, or one called Bob900824?


Yes, there is.  For one thing, we believe that the people who want to run and play Adult games should share some of the responsibility for ensuring that everybody in their game is an Adult.

For another, being able to provide the same information consistently, every time they are asked, is a better check than just making something up once and never having to think about it again.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:10, Sat 29 Sept 2012.

I'm still a little puzzled by the degree of anxiety people have been exhibiting about the prospect of subscriptions.  It's not like this is a pending policy change that's going to happen next week or something...and it's not like RPOL does updates like Facebook, and just arbitrarily changes significant portions of how the site functions without advance notice (in fact, from what I've seen, the vast majority of upgrades are user-driven...someone suggests it and whether or not it becomes reality is all up to how many other users say, "Yeah, that would be useful/cool..."

Yes...sometime, somewhere down the road, RPOL will be starting subscriptions.  However, one of the major hurdles for it has been and continues to be coming up with a reliable, consistent, universally available means for accepting payments.  Sites like Paypal are not viable options in some countries where RPOL users live, and until someone comes up with a site that IS, I suspect the subscription policy will advance little further than it has in the five or six years that I've been here...which is to say, it will remain a 'one of these days' item, something that is still on the horizon, but never apparently coming much closer.

We've been told, we will get plenty of advance notice if/when subscriptions are finalized and go live.  Until then, worrying about them and arguing over what different options are out there is the proverbial tempest in a teacup.  I agree that it's good to keep up-to-date on the changes, but really, I'm amazed at how much stress people subject themselves to worrying about a policy that has an extremely low likelihood of becoming reality anytime soon.

In reply to Purple (msg # 195):

I just didn't want folks to get the wrong idea ;-)

In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 197):

Matter is how long jase and moderators have patience to wait in making the final call. PayPal had been so far the only option for them for long time and as you said; unlikely a more competitive site shows up which provides a absolute universal payment method with greater degree than PayPal.

So it's not unlikely not to occur but more as when it occurs. Seven years this was announced and has been brewing up and I came to attention discussion was active once again by through informative player. So all who have talked now thinks it happens in next year or two and so hold discussion for alternatives (which may have been talked to death between mods and jase themselves but we can't see their PM's or discussion board so we repeat on same tracks).

I would not have probs pay for the stuff but I just cannot pay it in method suggested as I am unable to use said method. This is the main problem for me and is problem for Mika and some others.

What comes to aliases; don't mods see directly what all games (and chars) single user has? Also what comes for repeat process of age statements; it's easy as copy paste for user's part. If it needs edits they will edit it little but structure would remain same. So getting some user caught because they mistyped their birth date only works for fools (and some people may accidentally even mistype their dates in rush).

But I agree on slartybadfast, Rpol's major draw is how well done the site structure is. Elliquiy does not yet have said structure as Rpol has. But if it would someday get such structure then I would shift complete focus on Elliquiy site and it's games.

But I also wonder why user privacy is pressured heavily on Rpol, even if it policy keep user aliases strictly sepparated from immersion aliases. In Elliquiy it has been more positive than negative thing in general. Also it prevents a person A being jerk in two games because he cannot be tracked on and then be nice in third game without consequences. Only one who can track him is GM of the game who gets to see Rpol ID name in RTJ.

While in Elliquiy if your jerk, then everyone who bothers to check is able confirm it. So it sets up certain behavioral standard which then improves quality of the community.

I know, and I'm sorry.  I didn't mean for it to sound like an across-the-board thing, just as an overall it is not something that is adored by the Owner/Mod team and for good reason.  And I completely understand why it's an issue on many levels.  I was just trying to remind the good people of RPoL that what you guys and Jase do is really a massive favor for us, and we should be grateful and work around any small issues we have to the best of our ability.

Anytime I have ever seen somebody with a suggestion, the Mods are quick to jump in with a why it won't work, why it hasn't worked, a quick note about previous discussions for that suggestion, or other information if it is something that probably can't or won't be done, and if it's something that hasn't been suggested or talked about before, good and information discussion follows.  Changes that can and should be made are implemented in what I consider to be a timely manner considering that RPoL isn't a lovely day job that pays you guys lots of any money.

So anyway, I didn't mean it to sound judgmental if it did, nor was I trying to point fingers or lump everybody into a narrow category.  Sometimes I think too fast for my own good, knowing that I know what I mean and forgetting that it might not always come across the same to others.

Because for many users, privacy is one of the site's major selling points.  Nobody else knows how much time a particular user spends on RPoL, which games they play, which characters they are in those games, etc... unless that user chooses to tell them.

That has always been one of the main features of the site, and we believe that is a better approach than revealing information which is nobody else's business.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:07, Sun 30 Sept 2012.

According to repeated statements from RPOL's Powers-That-Be, this particular problem is one of the primary reasons that subscriptions are still 'coming soon', rather than already part of the site's normal operations.  In much the same way that they push user privacy so strongly, they also have a pretty strong stance on fairness for users...which, in this case, means that they don't want to institute a policy that will automatically impact several hundred (if not several thousand) users for the simple fact that they have no access to the secondary services needed to pay for the subscriptions.

The recent rash of subscription questions shouldn't necessarily be taken as an indicator that the policy-change is imminent.  This thread, like the last several (at least) of its forebears, started because users had questions and concerns, and the general answer has consistently been, "Until we find a way to make this option viable for everyone, we're not going to institute it."  (At least, that's the way I've read the statements from Jase and the mods.)  The other thing they've consistently said is that we will, as users, get PLENTY of advance notice before they actually start asking for subscriptions, and that RPOL users will still be able to use the site without a subscription (they just won't have access to all the features, like Adult-rated games).

So, with all those assurances having been made, I'm still at a loss as to why everyone is suddenly so anxious about it.  I don't recall anything said by Jase or the mods that indicates that subscriptions are any closer to becoming a reality now than they were three or four years ago...so why the sudden urgency?

I think it's just a cycle thing.  Every so often there are questions and then a panic.  And that's been happening since I first remember heavy discussions about it five or six years ago or so.  I trust the RPoL team to do what's right for RPoL and its users; and it's pretty clear that if this ever happens, it is so far down the road that people have plenty of time to either search for other arrangements, figure something out, or move their Adult content to E if they just can't find a way to make an RPoL Subscription work for them.

So we have plenty of time to get to the legal age. And to fix our collective and personal issues.
:-)

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 18:49, Sun 30 Sept 2012.

In reply to borderline_dnd (msg # 204):

Basically, yeah...*grin*

Yeah, I hope by then I have got job, got debt paid and so able have CC. But I wonder if this process drags, say, 20 years then would Rpol users who had been registered on site 20 years getting perhaps free pass to adult content? As physically time has gone way past the requirement to confirm are you adult or not ^_^ .

But yeah, it looks cycle thing as one player mentioned discussion and I got panic attack but reliefed it's not near future thing then.

No, they will not.  A subscription will be required to access Adult material, but Adult access will be only one part of that subscription.