Is this feature still in the works?  "Subscribe to support RPoL and receive added perks!"

I would subscribe, perks unseen.

Still in the works, yes...when they figure out the solution to a few logistical issues (like how to take subscription payments...I know that one's been a hitching point that's been discussed before, as not everyone has access to PayPal, not everyone has credit cards, etc...)

So, as of last I heard, yes, they're still working on it.  Just, don't hold your breath waiting for it.

I think "not everyone has a paypal account" is an odd reason. If you don't have a paypal account or a debit/credit card, then I think the chances of you wanting to buy a subscription and expecting to be able to are pretty slim.

But it's probably pretty difficult to set about getting a site set up for subscriptions. There must be loads of stuff to look into like the legal requirements and security requirements, and how many different payment options are available compared to which ones are most in use and most secure.

It's going to take some time.

Then there's always the "get permission from wife dilemma."  ;)

As I recall the discussion (and it was several months ago, so I could be remembering incorrectly), the problem was that there are some nations where PayPal is not allowed to operate.  If they make that the default method of making payments for subscriptions, all those users will be unable to pay.  Credit/debit cards are problematic because there are RPOL users who are minors and may not be able to persuade a parent to help them get a card (or make a payment with their own card on the minor's behalf).

Since RPOL is more interested in giving its users a fair shake than in making a buck, those have been hitching points in the whole subscription matter.  They're trying to find options that will work for anyone who would be desirous of subscribing, rather than rushing into it and then having to find work-arounds for people who want to subscribe but lack access to the financial resources to work with whatever quick option might have been chosen.

(I'm not sure there's any possible solution for the 'wife's permission' issue...*grin*)

What about "discrete" (ambiguous) billing like the other sort of subscriptions you might not want your wife to recognise :P

I fear you just to have to let your wife know you are a roleplaying geek or go with the free membership. But fear not, I suspect she knows of your roleplaying geekery already.

I wasn't referring to me specifically in the joke because my wife and I have separate accounts.  I just know she rolls her eyes patronizingly if I spend money on anything related to "games" and can imagine how it might be for someone with financial sensitivities.  She finally stopped trying to throw out my boxes of game materials when I told them they were vintage collectibles.  :)

As a young girl I had my id stolen by someone using paypal, as a result I will never voluntarily use paypal.  And I, like I am sure some rpollers, have no consitant income.  For logistical sake and those behind rpol's greatness I am behind the subscribe, but otherwise never have been fully behind it for the reasons listed.

I don't think this is as big of a sticking point as it might appear. One of the benefits of subscription was going to be access to adult games.

I was just hoping that a paid subscription would get me a larger ScratchPad.  I keep so many game notes there that it's constantly full, and I need more space.  : )

In reply to jaberwok (msg # 10):

And yet payment options ARE just about the biggest sticking point.  There are countries where credit cards are not so common, and Paypal may not be an option.

Should we exclude every site member from those countries from ever having access to Adult games on RPoL, simply because only a relatively small fraction of the adult population of those countries have a credit card?

And we have to be careful what other options are offered, since security is, as always, a primary consideration.

That's a good point.  I went for years in Japan never using a credit card (although I was lucky to have a few U.S. cards I could use when traveling or doing something online).

Well, forgive me if I ask a redundant question, what is the benefit of subscribing? I can't remember anyone saying "If you subscribe you get these features (list of things) and If you do not subscribe you do not get them." As it stands I am currently happy with how things are ran here. Is rpol simply low on funding or are you trying to add new features to the site?

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 12):

That's a very good point; I had meant to simply address the comment about minors having subscriptions.

In reply to shady joker (msg # 14):

I don't recall if they were going to add new features or not, but I think part of the reason is that minors tend not to have credit cards, so it would better ensure they do not participate in adult content games or break the ToL.

Yes, there will be additional features for subscribers.  One of the suggestions, a larger scratchpad, was mentioned above.  Others were suggested, but there is no final list.

One thing that has definitely been decided is that only subscribers would be able to access Adult games.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 17):

Then I fear you will be locked in your current PayPal quandary for quite sometime. Of course there are people who are more qualified to weigh in and help with the subject.

In reply to shady joker (msg # 18):

And that is why there is no projected date for incorporating subscriptions.  If/when an option that satisfies the criteria of those making the decision comes available, it'll happen.  Until then, things are working relatively well as-is and I personally think it's better to bide your time until the right opportunity comes along than rush into something and give yourself a few dozen new problems to have to resolve.

Also--access to Adult games doesn't HAVE to be part of the subscription package.  I would imagine someone could, theoretically, subscribe as a minor and get all the other odds and ends.  It's just that, once subscriptions start, ONLY people with subscriptions will have access to Adult games, as I understand it.  I mean, from a purely commercial point of view, it doesn't make much sense to NOT take someone's money because they're too young to access Adult material, if they want the rest of the subscription package.

Regardless of all the back-and-forth about the whats and whys of it, though, the point is, the plans are still in place to do it at some point...but there is no projected date (not even a rough projection) for it to happen.

. . . so, subscriptions aside, is there any way to get a bigger ScratchPad?  : )

Use smaller words?

In reply to Lance H (msg # 20):

I'd suggest saving some of your notes to word or some other document? To use the whole scratch pad must mean you have epic level of detail since your scratch and scribbles are so much.

I certainly use a Word doc.  It's sitting at 128,133 words long at the moment (242 pages)--all material related to my campaign.  So yeah, I wouldn't mind a longer ScratchPad for quick reference. :)

Start a thread in your game in a group only you can see and save your notes there?

If you're the GM... make a thread - set a group only you can see...

Personally, the size of my scratch pad is the number of Z threads I can have in any given game multiplied by 1000 posts. I use GM-ing privelages to my advantage as the others have mentioned.

Doesn't even have to be Group Z threads...just some group that nobody else can see.

Thank you for asking and offering.

By some strange coincidence I've been talking to my accountant about this (how grown up of me) and how it needs to be done.  At this stage it's looking pretty simple, so it might actually be happening soon.

For the interim it'll probably just be PayPal, and we'll monitor it from there.  It's flattering that people do want to help support the site so I'll probably push ahead with the quickest, easiest and most widespread payment gateway first.

Perks we'll flesh out as things develop, as well as other payment gateways you can use to show your support.

I use the GM character sheet or a separate private GM thread for overflow, or just a Word version of what I want handy. There are many alternatives to the limited scratchpad.

Funny
I always thought of the scratchpad as a sticky postit note on rpol. And here I'm reading that folks want to use it to post several .... a thread is much easier since you can also post links in the thread :)

The problem I see with this is it's going to cost you a lot of people on Rpol because honestly, some of us just don't have the income to do what you all are asking of us. I know I have no viable income and you can't use food stamps, I watch my friends kids for room and board so I don't have any funds. If you make it so we have to pay to play our games in the adult section, then I will be forced to leave.

In reply to fireflights (msg # 31):

I'm in the exact same situation.

I believe jase realizes that some people may not be able to do subscriptions.

Jase has said that the non-adult portions of the site will always be free, but if adult content is the only point of interest, then some people may choose not to stay.

My advice is to not worry about it until there is an announcement by jase stating specific plans for implementation.

Just wanted to chime in, if you're going ahead with the subscription plan would it be possible for you to accept payment via credit card as well?

Obviously I don't know all the factors and issues involved in what I am sure has been an extensive decision making process, but is there a downside to accepting more methods of payment rather than less?

Same here to be honest. While I'm only in one adult game, I do know a few people who run those kinds of games and don't have any stable income. While I can understand this concept, not a lot of people would exactly like this.

Re: Credit Card and Paypal:
You can pay via credit card using any Paypal-accepting system, without logging in to Paypal or having an account with them.  (Many places do this so seamlessly, you don't even know you're running your card through Paypal.)

When done like this, it uses Paypal in the same way as any other payment gateway (such as Citibank or whatever) with all the same security and guarantees.


Re: Inability to Pay
I'm sorry, and I certainly don't mean to seem heartless, but everything can't be free.

While you will have access to most of the site and all the same features you have now, adult access will go behind a subscription (even if that subscription is a nominal one-time-only payment).

I know that will exclude some people but that is, unfortunately, necessary.
This message was last edited by the user at 20:39, Tue 29 July 2014.

In addition, it seems that you've all forgotten about what jase said in the final post of the 'A change for the better' thread:



So active users should have no problem in getting adult access for life if they just donate twenty dollars as soon as subscriptions are implemented, unless this has changed.  Maybe some people feel that they can't even pay that, but if you can't spare a one-time donation of twenty dollars to support a service that you use possibly every day, or for many of you at least every week, then you probably have bigger problems than not being able to access adult games.  I personally will gladly pay the twenty dollars if it comes to that.  After all I pay a lot more for other services I use a lot less.  Even if the subscription was twenty dollars a year every year that would still be an incredibly nominal fee that even most people without a steady income could probably manage without too much trouble.

This is correct. I run my own small business and use PayPal to handle all credit and debit card payments. PayPal handles the transaction but the customer doesn't need to set up an account (though PayPal will invite you to do so). It will also default to your local currency or give you the option of paying in a foreign currency (I think).

In reply to Silver_Cat (msg # 37):

If this is how it's done, I welcome it. I just don't want to suddenly be shut out of my games because I had to cover expenses (as a working student)

If this thing happens, would it be possible to make a payment via someone else's Paypal account? I don't have one, but use a family member's to do my online purchases.

Once specific details are available regarding exactly what the options will be for payment, etc, there will be a detailed and prominent announcement where everything can be discussed in depth and any necessary tweaks suggested and considered.

Until then, the answer is ... we don't know.

Out of curiosity, say we can't/don't pay for a sub but we already run/play in adult rated games. Do we just get locked out of them or are we grandfathered in for the ones we're already a part of?

 Well, for whatever it's worth,a I am laid off currently, and this is one of the few diversions  I have. And once they go with a pay system, I am out of luck. But then again, the way things have been going of late, why should this be any different. Why can't you do advertising like other sites for income? That seems better then what you are considering.

 And that part about not wanting to " be heartless" I don't buy it.  Shrugs
This message was last edited by the user at 00:37, Wed 30 July 2014.

Once details have been decided, jase will let everyone know.

That's pretty much the answer to any question that hasn't already been answered in this thread.

As has been stated several times, General Rated and Mature games will not require a subscription.

Well going to put my two cents in here for now, then will again raise the concern when/if it ends up coming about.

My main concern is I know there are a bunch who don't like, bother with adult games. And that is fine, not everyone has to. But even with this, it is treated as such a bad thing.

I have been part of RPOL now for many years, on and off. But it is one of my favorite places to go. With that said, I enjoy adult games for my own reasons and it has nothing to do with being a sex fiend. I just enjoy writing all aspects that I can in a story, and I also follow the RPOL rules and call on anyone in my games who do not. I have also been part of a couple adult forum RPG sites in the past also, and I always end up coming back to RPOL.

Why is that? Because so far RPOL is a safe environment, there is no harassment or if there is it gets handled quickly. You just don't have the general ick of the other sites here, and for women and men of course but I know the majority is women. The other sites are just such a bad time. I know several people who have come over from the other sites to join in adult games here, because of that safe factor. They enjoy it more here, because of how everything is. There is not so much weirdness or harassment here.

What I see happening if the subscriptions come in, and the adults are forced to pay to use the adult section. The adult section will dwindle quickly, to a point where person there won't be one any more. And that is because we would have to pay for the privilege to use the adult section, it will basically force people who cannot pay to go to the free forum sites and deal with the crap there because they were forced out of this safe environment.

I would honestly not mind paying for the subscription, but I know a good chunk of people are not willing or able. So if that is the case, if there isn't anyone in the adult section left to work with then why should I bother giving the money.

Most other sites give extra things for people to subscribe, giving people the option to do it if they want the extra stuff. That sounds more worth it to me, then alienating a group. Which is pretty much what you are doing by charging to RP.

 Look, I am not trying to pick a fight, be disruptive, or anything else negative. But most of the games that I am in are rated " adult"  not because we spew foul language, have  orgies, or anything else so low brow. It is mainly due to the descriptive postings if combat scenes or course language that a character might say because of a scene.
 I don't even come on this forum normally, but this is ...... What's the point of going on talking about it. It's sucks to be broke, I understand it costs money to run this site, I get that.... I am just not happy about losing my  one source of diversion to my current circumstances.  I know, it's my problem, so am done talking about it now. Nothing with change.   Sorry

Please stay calm Bannacor, this has been talked about for a long time now and there is no set day when it will be brought out. It still could be years from now. Everyone panics when it is mentioned, best to just go with everything is fine and ok right now. Let's not over worry anything that isn't happening at this moment.

In reply to prophacyks (msg # 45):

This summed up my feelings on the matter quite nicely too. Going subscription-only for adult will undoubtedly kill adult games entirely simply because nobody can be sure that it's worth paying for it if they don't even know they'll have anyone to play with. It's hard enough getting enough people for more obscure games as it is, and doing this would only further fracture the playerbase until there is no playerbase.

Add to that you're basically taking away something people already had and putting it behind a paywall - that is going to go over very poorly just on principle even with some people who can afford it. Still, it does help with the problem it's intended to solve in a different way than intended - when people who mainly or only play adult games disappear, and there effectively is no adult section anymore, the problem will be a non-problem.

I agree with Prophacyks and Eternaldarkness. I feel like if the paywall is put up for Adult games, you'll just see a bunch of mature games pushing the boundaries into adult games more and more until they're basically the same or you start banning / having to hand out warnings on a super frequent basis. Add that to the people that already have long-standing games with players that might not be able to put up the cash to continue in an adult game since they can't pay, and it's mucking up things for a lot of people. I could understand if this was something implemented from the start, but you're taking a free service that has existed for years and years and suddenly making it pay-to-play. I'm more than willing to see where the discussion goes for it, but I'm worried about what it will do to the games that I run and play in if this is what you end up using for subscriptions. Seems like a really cheap way to squeeze cash out of people. I'd much rather see new or improved bonuses for subscribing rather than what's being suggested so far.

Of course it seems like no one's read the previous discussions where jase also talks about subscriber-only features and what those might look like.

We understand the concerns that keep being brought up.  We have heard them.

But, look, everyone: the discussion has been going on close to ten years now.  From that, I think you can rest assured of two things: (1) this isn't going to go in overnight, badly planned, and as a total surprise to all involved, and (2) we've had a while to hear all the concerns and predictions of doom.

What we've not seen in all this time are any viable alternatives to both keeping an adult section on the site and accounting for all the extra work it takes to keep it there.  (For example, no to invasive on-site ads as that doesn't save us any work and it's terrible; no to paying a third party for age checks since the users would have to fit the bill for that anyway.)

And we see very little in the way of acknowledging that yes, adult will be one small part of subscriptions but there will be more than that to it.

If you have something new to add, please do.  If you have a solution we've not already covered, we'd be excited to hear it.  But really, "you owe it to me because, to this point, you've given it to me free" isn't a convincing argument, especially if you actually appreciate RPoL and would be happy to see it supported.

---

A few previous threads if you want to read for ideas that have already been covered:

• The original announcement: link to a message in "General RPoL" <- Read this, at minimum.
• link to a message in "General RPoL"
• link to a message in "RPoL Development"

This message was last edited by the user at 01:57, Wed 30 July 2014.

Considering how much time, effort and money I've invested in the site for the past fourteen years, I hardly see how these comments are fair or justified.

I don't mean to "single" out your comments, but considering how much I've invested into giving everyone this site for free (including advert free) for the past 14 years it's truly shocking and disheartening to see how quickly people are ready to damn me (and those who ensure the site runs smoothly).

If I wanted to make big dollars off the site then it'd be plastered with adverts and "donate now" buttons, but I wanted to give people a safe, annoyance free, site where they could roleplay... and I was (and am) willing to do it at considerable expense to myself.

The site will remain free, I'm not sure how many ways this can be worded, for all general and mature rated comment.  Those who like to donate will be able to donate via an official subscription model instead, which will give them something they don't currently get -- perks.  Perks I've decided I should give to members who donate as a way of saying "thanks".  Just like there's no obligation to donate now, there will be no obligation to subscribe in the future.

Adult access, like mentioned many times before, is unfortunately a constant thorn in our side.  Not because of the responsible adults that participate (they're awesome), but because of the irresponsible adults and non-adults who insist on ignoring the rules of the site and common decency.  Like anything else in life, society has to unfortunately pay for the transgressions of a few, and RPoL has to do something to control the adult access better.  More specifically, we needed a way to verify the age of a member.

This, very un-sudden change, is a rudimentary way for us to verify the age of the member, not for us to control the content of the post -- the latter is already being done.  We already have to manage adult games on a "super frequent basis", but the proposed change gives us a way of stopping underage members getting access to the adult section (which is an excellent thing).  We're still left with the irresponsible adults who think that rules and common decency don't apply to them; it's a shame it has to come down to this, but this gives them a reason to start behaving like a responsible and upstanding member; their money is now at stake.

At the end of the day we were left with the unenviable decision of either closing down the entire section, or putting in some kind of validation system.  We chose the lesser of two evils.  In lieu of a better option that doesn't put a massive workload and/or expense onto us, I have opted to tie it into subscriptions (or at least, a one-off subscription/donation).

We're all ears for better ideas, but you need to actually invest some time into understanding the history of the site and what we're trying to achieve (the links cruinne just kindly provided are a requirement).  If you do have an alternative then you also need to invest time into thoroughly investigating the solution and ensuring it will do what's required plus not require a large time and/or monetary investment from the site.

 I said that out of frustration and anger, but from all I said in two posts,that is what you focus on. Alright. For my part, I apologize for that part of my comment. But the rest stands. I don't want to talk about it anymore, I am powerless to do anything about it.  So it is what it is.  Sigh

Pretty much what Bannacor said.

(Meaningful text required of me to quote the above text since I don't have much else to say other than what has already been stated.)

I have read some of what has been posted. It can be upsetting to some that may not have seen this before today. I actually posted this in my game and there was some chatter with my group about the topic.

I'm sure this has been said before but to satisfy those that may not have read it what are some of the reasons you don't go with ads for games the relate to the membership OR to drive sale that support the site. Just yesterday a GM on this site noted that he was going to buy some books to properly GM on this site. That's revenue that could be in the coffers here.

Any reason you don't have an online store selling the PDFs to the games played here. I'm sure that many player would buy if from this site in support.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:22, Wed 30 July 2014.

Players need to understand that running a website costs money. I run one for my own business, and it costs me money.

Also, running a website costs time. A lot of people put a lot of their FREE time into running this site. They don't do it for profit or kudos, but for the love of roleplaying. They also have jobs, families and real lives to devote their time to.

What those people need is our support and assistance to make this community a fun and happy place, as well as funding to help pay for the costs associated with the running of the site.

As Jase has stated, it would be easy to sell out and have a load of annoying junk appearing on screen to sell us banal crap, but they have chosen not to do this. They could also sell the lists of email addresses to targeted marketing companies, and again have chosen not to do this.

We cannot expect them to keep spending their own time and money while we all use the site for nothing. If everyone donated (and yes I am aware of the irony that I haven't done so yet) then funding would not be an issue. Subscription costs, when they come in, could then be kept to a minimum or even done for free (you can do a credit card verification check without taking a payment, but it still costs money to do the check).

To expect, no DEMAND, access to a managed adult roleplaying site that costs a lot of money to manage, and then refuse to contribute to the costs associated with running it, is grossly unfair. If you can't afford it then, frankly tough. Either play non-adult games for FREE or find some way of paying subscription charges by making sacrifices elsewhere.

Sounds harsh? Maybe so. But if you want the new PS4 game you have to pay. Want a new iPad, you have to pay. Life costs money people.

The fact that entry to this site has been free for so long is a testament to Jase and the mods and they should be applauded for their efforts, not criticised when they discuss ways of trying to keep the site alive for the next generation of RPers.

Rant over, thank you for listening... :)

I rarely speak up on the forums except to ask questions, but on this particular issue, I feel it is necessary.

First and most important, I would like to say thank you to Jase and the entire administrative/moderator staff. I would list you all by name (you certainly deserve the recognition!) except I'm not sure where to find a comprehensive list of the mods, and I would hate to leave anyone out.

Thank you for the time and resources you have invested and continue to invest in RPOL. I don't know the monetary/tangible expense (although I'm sure it has added up over the years), but I know that you have all put considerable personal time and energy into operating and managing RPOL. You all don't get enough thanks for the sacrifices you all make so that countless gamers can have fun.

Thank you for your constant efforts to make RPOL a place we can all gather and play, and thank you for the grace and patience you show towards us RPOLians, especially during times/discussions like these where it must be difficult to be patient with us.

To my fellow RPOLians, I think everyone should step back for a second and point the finger at the community before pointing it at the staff.

It has been repeatedly stated in this thread and other threads that the primary purpose of subscriptions is not to generate income, it is to verify ages for adult games.

I think the staff deserves the benefit of the doubt when they say that. If the sole purpose of subscriptions is to generate income, they would be the worst business people in the world, because they've been operating for almost 15 years without even attempting to institute a revenue generating process. Safe to say Jase and company aren't in this for the money.

A quick trip to the Chamber of Lost Souls should be more than sufficient proof that other than multiple accounts, Adult Game problems are the most common way to end up in trouble. I would guess that many of the multiple accounts are related to trying to cheat the Adult Game rules as well.

Policing all of those violations year after year, game after game, person after person has got to be frustrating. If the mods can drastically reduce that demand on their own personal free time by instituting a simple check system, I say more power to them!

We have yet to see any concrete pricing structure, so any complaints about affordability are far too premature. Jase has already stated it might even be just a one time fee, or perhaps as low as $2 a month (or even lower). I have a difficult time believing anyone cannot afford $2 a month if they really wanted to. You can make that money picking up change off the street. Buy one beer less per month and you've made that and then some. Refrain from super-sizing at the next fast food restaurant and you're halfway there.

I could go on, but the point is, no one can reasonably state the subscription is unaffordable. Any such statement is definitively false, because no one knows how much it will cost. Until we do, I think the mods deserve the benefit of the doubt. Some have stated that even a one-time token fee is too much, that any number greater than 0 is unaffordable. Well suppose the mods charged a token one-time subscription fee of $5. If you can't afford it, either you are lying or you have no business playing games when you don't even have $5 to spare.

I don't mean to sound condescending or confrontational when I say that, but I have to ask, why do people feel their $5, or $2 a month, or whatever, is more valuable than all the time the mods have to spend dealing with the adult game issues?

And if the mods decide to institute a system to cut down on that workload, whose fault is it, theirs or the people running around breaking the rules? Blame the people who try to cheat the system, not the ones enforcing/improving the system!

Would you prefer the mods got rid of the Adult Games entirely? Even if they did, blaming them would be the equivalent of blaming firefighters for failing to save a city rather than blaming the looters who set the fires in the first place.

Jase and company have been working on a solution for over 10 years! It should be crystal clear that any decision they make is an extensively thought out one that looks to do the greatest good for the largest number of RPOLians. Yes it is unfortunate that 100% satisfaction among the populace will not be obtained, but there isn't 100% satisfaction among the populace now. So if they can't make everyone happy, they can at least make RPOL better.

There is also a simple solution that would end the subscription discussion entirely right now: DON'T BREAK THE ADULT GAME RULES!

Then there would be no need to institute more stringent checks, because the existing ones would be just fine. Of course, people aren't going to do that, because god forbid we all follow the rules of the site that we are guests of. But completeness compels me to point out that blaming the mods for trying to more effectively and efficiently enforce the existing rules is pretty silly, especially when the people who should be blamed are the ones breaking the rules in the first place.

I would be fine if the sole result of subscriptions was to more effectively verify ages for adult games and generate a little cash to defray the expenses of running this site. Personally, I believe Jase and the Mods deserve to have more of their time to do things other than police people's bad behavior. And if it helps keep the site more affordable for them, great!

But that isn't the case, because they are trying to add value to the subscription through additional options for subscribers, because they don't want people to feel ripped off. Which is awesome of them. The point is, it should be clear they're bending over backwards to make this transition as easy as possible, as beneficial for RPOL as possible, and as accessible to as many people as possible.

In conclusion, I understand that people are concerned, and while that's understandable, I do think that Jase and company have earned the benefit of the doubt. In my opinion, any concerns should be expressed in a manner that gives them that benefit, rather than just assuming the worst about a policy that hasn't even been revealed, let alone implemented yet.

Sorry for the long post, but I was reading too many posts that just attacked Jase and the Mods as uncaring, money-hungry, and a bunch of other stuff that was nothing more than an emotional response with no evidence to support such claims.

Thanks again to Jase and all the Moderators for making RPOL the best PBP gaming site!

Along those same lines...

Don't make an issue out of it when it's not even an issue yet.  They've been talking about subscriptions for a decade, trying to work out what would be most effective and least invasive, and after all that time, it's still in the 'we're working on our best option' stage.

Yes, when it happens, it's going to cause some changes...but sweating bullets over it now is somewhat akin to having a nervous breakdown because you heard that you will, in fact, die one day.  It's out there, sometime in the future...the subscription issue, you actually probably have marginally more control over, as you can read up on everything they've discussed and worked out thus far and weigh in with suggestions of your own (of course, you can also eat a healthier diet, get exercise and adequate rest, and get routine medical check-ups to try and extend your life a bit...)

But in the end, pitching a fit about it now won't do anything to alter the end result, it will just put you in a funk about it now.  I, like many others, am on very limited funds...if subscriptions were instituted tomorrow, I'd probably have to drop out of at least a couple of games because I couldn't afford even a one-off $20 payment, at the moment.  That doesn't mean that, when they finally get the bugs worked out and start subscriptions, I'll still be working two jobs just to keep my bills paid and freelancing anywhere that will pay me to try and get a little ahead...I might actually have a better job at that point, or have gotten a raise...there's a whole pile of circumstances that could change my ability to pay for subscriptions.

Worry about problems that actually NEED to be dealt with...jase isn't going to spring this on us overnight, you'll have plenty of time to work out whether or not you can deal with the subscription issue when the issue is actually clearly identified and not some nebulous 'we're not sure what it is, but it's coming...sometime' point somewhere on the horizon.

Jase, after your post I just wanted to chime in and say how much I appreciate this site and the way it is run. I am sure 99.9% of the members feel the same way. Please don't let the few bad apples questioning your motives get you down.

Hear, hear, WinterRat1, hear, hear.

And, jase, it is a vanishingly small minority of the many Rpol members who are expressing vociferous concern over the subscriptions. The vast majority of us understand your reasoning and that change comes to all things. Most of us even agree that this change will be for the better. Thank you.

 This is my last post on this topic, but sticks and stones, as the old saying goes. I wish everyone  blessed and good day.

As someone who has used RPoL for several years and who has donated regularly and willingly over that time, I first want to say thanks to Jase and all the mods for their efforts. I have been happy to donate to something that I find valuable, enjoyable and free. I will continue to support the site with my hard-earned dollars as long as I am using the site. In my opinion, it is the best way to show my gratitude for the service that RPoL provides to RPGers.

The idea of perks for donations on a subscription model sounds like a fine idea. Still, the fact that this service exists is the only perk that really matters.

That reminds me, it is time for my annual donation . . .

I realise this can be quite a contentious and polarising issue for our members.  Just like I don't want people agreeing with me for the sake of it, neither is it constructive for those who are fearful of change to predict doom and gloom with no practical input.

I do, however, greatly appreciate the constructive input that both sides of the fence provide.  Those who recognise the change for what it is (thank you all, I did briefly forget about you) and those who have reservations, which is natural enough.  I even have reservations about it, but alas we don't live in a perfect society and something had to change, and that's the unfortunate reality that we have to keep in mind.

When this was proposed (what, wait, how long ago?) there was a lot of feedback (and backlash), some of it with merit.  We revised not only the proposed solution but the way the site worked as a result of the feedback.



Quite the contraire.  Come up with a better solution and I'll be amongst the first to thank you.  But until a better solution is uncovered the current solution is therefore the best one available.  Far from perfect, I agree, but the best solution we currently have.



Time, effort and (most importantly) I do not have a clue as to how to go about it.

 I have only been on here perhaps a year, so I admit to not reading all the treads on this topic. My comments where made out of deep frustration and anger from another matter. I came on line, read about this and it was the final straw in  a really, really bad day. So I knee jerked a couple of times on here. While I don't like what is coming down, I went about expressing my opinion badly. So again, apologies to anyone that felt insulted. But on another matter, I have apologized twice now, once in this forum, and again in  a private mail to you. So, please stop using snippets of my posts in any future posts you might make. Thank you for your time.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:33, Wed 30 July 2014.

Plus it would probably cost us money for the rights to sell them.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 64):

And a good portion of them do exclusive distributor deals.  Many require that you deal with different distributors for distributing in different countries and/or languages.

Doing an online shop of that sort is a full time job -- managing various distributor and publisher relationships and staying on top of what's coming out and promoting, doing customer support because something invariably goes wrong, paying for the servers and bandwidth to deliver purchases ... and I'd think the chance of our prices being competitive with existing online stores in the same space would be low.  And ... we all already have jobs :-\
This message was last edited by the user at 15:21, Wed 30 July 2014.

Well, you guys could always sell autographed pictures of bbr.  =)

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 64):

The only practical, revenue-generating idea would be to have banner advertising from directly relevant advertisers, such as WOTC, drivethrurpg.com, Games Workshop, etc.

But then this goes back to the whole issue of advertising on the site (puts lid firmly back on that ole can of worms).

I can't speak in this case for jase's reasons for not wanting ads.  I can tell you mine.

Ads don't pay that much, unless they are numerous and invasive to the degree of permitting the tracking of users across the site the and harvesting of data about users.

Without having a person employed to sell ads specifically, you're left with fairly generic options and while you can select the rating and topics of those ads, the experiences with sites I've seen is that those are guesswork at best, and the site has to constantly "report" sneaky ads doing malicious things, or lying about their content so that their NSFW materials get splashed all over sites that request safe-rated ads and the like.

A lot of on-site real estate has to be handed over to ads (not just one tiny portion per page), and then to actually start making any kind of money on them, you have to show as many ads as possible.  This is usually done by creating extra pages the user has to click through to get where they want to go, and generally getting behind Really Bad Navigation to make sure each person sees as many ads as possible on their trip from A to B.

Then users, sick of that, start using ad blockers.  Then the site, to maintain revenue, has to work around ad blockers.  Then the users get better ad blockers.  Then the site gets more invasive ads ... it's a horrible cold-war like face off.

Now one possible solution is like Youtube does, eh?  To force people to watch a 24-second video before they can read a thread.  But I'd stop using a site that did that.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 68):

That sounds pretty horrible... :(

I thought the main issue here was trying to validate that users are 18+. If money is an issue, then I believe everyone should pay. I completely understand the want to keep the Adult games clear of minors, but there will always he ways for them to get around your blocks. Paying included. The main problem I see here for the site more than anything is that users who enjoy Adult games believe the sexual content is more than just that. It's an integral part of the story and offers character development that many find integral to their characters when exploring not only mature themes but also exploring sexuality, est. Many of the people I've talked to have expressed that shifting games to mature settings then having to engage in scenes separately on either a ERP site, or take the time to sit down and instant message makes them not want to do this at all. Thus a chunk of their experience in the game, for that character and the site is diminished.

The reason I bring this up is because adult themes in a game to many should be a choice, and picking out one demographic of players in the site not only makes them more likely to lash against it, but also starts a sentiment of unfairness. As if they are being judged for liking certain elements in their games they find important to them.

I don't know the answer to this problem, and I understand the want to monitor minors as well as find ways to finance the site, but signaling out   Adult game players is not only not fair but also asking for people to react poorly to this change whatever is instigated as they feel they are being signaled out.

If I believe my character's sexuality is integral to their character, but I have to pay in order to explore that whilst someone else who doesn't enjoy those themes don't, yes, I would find that unfair. This is at least a concern I have seen expressed and feel needs to be heard and contemplated upon. It's not as simple as "pay for the privilege to have sex", it's about the themes Adult games bring to the table and how they are being targeted by being subscription accessible only.

I wanted to start by saying that I love this site, as well as the moderators who run it. You guys have been doing and are continuing to do an outstanding job. I've met some great people here and developed wonderful relationships; this is and always has been a play I can just come to and lose myself in. So for that, I thank you, all the moderators as well as the users that I've interacted with.



Eloquent and I agree. But as it currently stands, would this then not be the few paying for society as a whole? The users paying the subscription fee, even if only the once in order to gain life-time adult access, would in turn be paying for the site as a whole. Personally, an I may be alone on this branch here, but I feel as if you want to implement a cost then you should implement it for everyone and not just a portion (whether it's a majority or minority percentage) of your user base.  Everyone should pay or no-one should - it's not like the money I spend here would only go to me. No, it would likely go to cover server costs and other things free users would have access to.

There are many sites that are free and have adult content, some larger than RPoL and others smaller. So obviously there is a way to do it. Yeah, most of them run off donations or have ads or some combination of something that helps them make money, agreed. But when you say "Provide other potential solutions" and users do provide them, even if they are solutions you don't like (ads for example) isn't that then a revenue worth investigating further? Like seeing what your user base would prefer?

A shop (whether some companion thing or personal and unique merchandise), ads, 'facebook games'. Okay I apologize profusely for that last suggestion. I'm pretty sure no-one wants candy crush.




Have you stopped using YouTube, Facebook and many other sites that stream video's/offer ads? I'm not attacking, so I apologize if this context seems hostile. I'm curious. Because if you have stopped using them, you may have stopped (as it sounds) when these things were inconvenient and annoying and you may not know that now, many of these sites now have ads along side banners that are hardly noticeable now and the vast majority of ones that try and make me watch a video (YouTube, network sites that stream shows) now have a 'click to skip' feature after five or so seconds of the video playing.

Again, not an attack, I only ask because if you had stopped using them you may not have noticed that they're a lot less invasive and if you haven't stopped using any of the above sites or other sites I may have not mentioned which use any of the above alternative revenue streams (a single one or some combination) - like Reddit - then why would you stop using RPoL?

I don't see Credit Cards or PayPal as a legitimate way to verify someones age or even identity.  That's not saying any of you do, you used the descriptor 'rudimentary method' so you obviously know how crude it is. Because a child could certainly gain access to a PayPal account or Credit Card just like there are many adults who can't. The problem I have here is, if even you don't think it's much better than the honour system in regards to verifying age. Why get so adamant that that's going to be one of the fundamental purposes of it? Though perhaps that's MY personal hangup, I just can't understand implementing a system for something when you don't think the system is good or secure.

But that also ties in with my belief that if some people are going to be paying, shouldn't everyone?

Also, one problem I see:



So, let's say that theoretically everyone pays this and then cancels their subscription.  Sure you will have a sudden and massive cash influx, but if no-one subscribes after that point, the site would revert to what it is now, running on your time and effort and depending on donations. So why wouldn't this become a problem again in the future?

I gather that the above scenario goes from 'best case' to 'worst case' without any leeway, which isn't likely to happen. But it also doesn't factor in people potentially leaving the site or just deciding to play Mature and PG games. The latter of which would once again revert the site to your dime/time and dependent on donations.  Realistically, you'll have some combination where some people pay, some don't, some leave, some new people join and some revert to just playing PG/Mature games.

But when then do your policing problems travel over to mature games? The adult users who don't want to pay suddenly flood the site with mature games and all of them start pushing the line and limit. How much description is too much, etc...

Also, the people who pay the subscription, even if it's  just once and they get a 'life time access'. I can't imagine you wont get some idiot trying to argue that since they've paid you (once, or subscription basis) they should now be able to write and do whatever they want and treat this site like their sandbox. (I hope this aspect isn't true but my faith in humanity is not unwaivering)

The above ramble could likely be boiled down to: "I can't see a 'one-time fee' resolving any issue. I think that we'll wind up right back here."


I want to apologize for any perceived hostility or condescension that you may have picked up. I've been told that I can project this without even intending to and I want you to know that it sincerely wasn't my intent.

I left this site at one point, over ten years ago when this conversation first came up. Another time I took a hiatus for personal reasons and drama. Both times I returned though, because as I stated above, this site has become something I love and value, as are many of the connections I've made while here. So thank you all for that.

I want to end this by quoting another person in this thread who I think hit true, because despite any reservations I may have, whether or not I voiced them above, I truly do agree with this person and believe what they said:

I find it almost perfect how the last thread seemed to come right after mine. Same issue of signaling out one group. I completely agree. As for options, I think as far as cost goes, it may be as simple as making subscription benefits especially rewarding. Perhaps including a personal portrait gallery they could upload a maximum number to, increasing the sketchpad word count, customization est. I know of course it would be extra work, or difficult to figure out what would be included in the package to make the pot sweet enough, but I know personally that I would purchase a subscription if I know it benefits me, doesn't go to the free rides of others, or make me feel signaled out for my tastes or ambitions.

rpol could always integrate with face book if it is utterly nessisary to monitor minors as it would be far more difficult to fool through an external social site. Rpol nation, infrno and others all go this route, and you can select to make sure no games (of adult content) are posted on time lines est. It seems more secure then the payment as minors could simply borrow money from mom and dad or kids like me who have used online pay pal est since I was 15. These are just ideas and I don't personally know the inner workings if the site enough to claim they would solve everything. But options like this would at least not cut your site into demographics nor cause the issues the above thread have stated. I adore this site and am willing to support it if it comes to it, even on a collage student salary of nada. But I do not want to feel forced nor inconvenienced because of my role play choices or the games I want to engage in, force my players to pay  for my game or completely rework the game itself to keep it free.

If I am to support this site I love I want to do it because of I love it and want to enhance my experience. Not feel as though I have to work around a system that discriminates against me or my players.

Actually, it's even easier to fool a social network than a credit card company:  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06...ewanted=all&_r=0

Mad Mick, they are referring to the pay by credit cards that are now in walmart, I have had one, they don't ask for your social, they also don't require age verification for those. So ergo, there are ways around this for minors.

Perhaps, but it's only an idea. The point is that no matter what is done, there will be a way around it. The internet has always been a playground with loopholes everywhere. A minor could borrow a card under their parents, have set up a pay pal, est, which depending on how subscription goes may be required anyways. Who knows. Most young adults have some form of social media account with facebook, tumblr est all being integrated into sites all over the net. This means either someone finds it more convenient to simply link all accounts they have to that one social site, OR they have to go through the trouble of making a fake one and then integrate it into all those sites. This means they've already found away around countless site's age blocks. Deviant art and others all have filters but are easily bypassed even with a subscription. Then you get Tumblr, and general porn sites which are either not filtered at all or can be washed away with the lying click of a 18+ button. And those places hardly have the strict graphic material rules Rpol does. I know that keeping minors away from graphic written material is to not only protect them but also the site. However, it's a battle the internet and most likely rpol will never win. If a minor can watch porn, it's a good chance they'll find a way to play an adult game where there may be some graphic violence or sex written. Same as if they went to a book store. So my inclination is that it's to primarily protect the site's code of conduct. So signaling out one demographic and basically making them pay in part to fight a loosing battle is disheartening.

 I know there are other reasons of course like site maintenance, but then shouldn't that be the responsibility of all players? And of course keeping as many minors from adult material is important, as well as the fact Adult games have stricter rules so they must be enforced. But all games have rules and those rules are partially there to protect minors, the site and general players. Like I said, I don't know the answers to this issue, nor think the suggestions I made are the best or feasible as I don't know each detail of the site. But I do know there are kinks in the current plan and they should be discussed so that as a site we can find the best possible outcome and keep this place a wonderful role play experience for everyone.

Players in adult games cause the mods more work than any other demographic.
Yes, it's not all players in all adult games, but the reason that demographic is being singled out it because they require a lot of extra work.
That the mods do this instead of removing the demographic and avoiding the extra work it introduces is, as far as I'm concerned, going above and beyond. They deserve a big thank you for it.
Thank you, mods!

If there are players who want adult content in any form, can't play without it, and won't pay for subscriptions if they are introduced then, maybe, instead of complaining about a possible future they should be saying thank you for the excellent service they currently receive.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:36, Wed 30 July 2014.

If a complaint, any complaint is a valid representation of a portion of a userbase, it should be heard and acknowledged, and it should continue being so heard and acknowledged until the eventuality that the issue is decided on with finality.

For pity's sake, people, it's 'singled' out not 'signaled' out.

And its 'etc.' short for the Latin et cetera, not 'ect' or 'est.'

Adult games are currently a right to anyone of legal viewing age. To add a cost to them would currently affect primarily those who play them, but everyone else as well. There are some people who prefer those games because it allows freedom to express certain themes, but everyone can join an adult game when the mood fancies them. If a game someone wanted to play was adult, a really awesome game with thought out lore and worlds and all that, but the GM wants to give the players an option to feel out adult themes, someone who usually did not play adult games or would usually go in with the intention of not engaging in adult content themselves would have to pay. I think it's also a matter of general player privilege. If money must be made on the site, why not make that required to all so that all games remain open to everyone, OR make it related to something not pertaining to the choice players have in games. The benefits of the subscription, I personally think, would be better served relating to adding bells and whistles to the current layout of the site. That way, no one is taken away the choice of their preferred games, no one feels they are being treated unfairly because other players get to play the games they want for free, and the mission statement of this site being the playing of games isn't compromised. I feel people may respond kinder to that sort of change rather than trying to talk people into giving up a core option in their experience on this site. It pertains to everyone, and I think now that explaining the Adult game users as a group separate to everyone else wasn't the best word choice.

Again, these are my opinions and just some suggestions. But I do think that more issue would be made and more problems could be caused for the site if things are done this way. People are upset and unsure, and that directly affects every player on rpol, because it takes away possible players, GMs, and even donators and possible subscribers. We as a whole community, if we really wish to talk about thanking the mods for their hard work, should sort out this problem and be a part of the end result as a community. Thus any changes to the site are done between all participants in the games here.

I hardly doubt every issue on this site that requires maintenance and financing is adult game specific. For every issue in an adult game, there are issues in other games as well. Should those with the possible larger number of issues shoulder the finances of  the other games or finances not pertaining to adult games specifically? This is food for thought, and things I feel and hopefully others feel should be heard and at least considered. I understand the position the mods are in is difficult, but part of being a mod is feeding off the input of the community. I think that they will understand why others and I have taken the time to speak up about what we feel should be listened to. I also hope no one perceives this as an attack or a demand. Just some concerns by a fellow player.

Adult games are not a right for anyone on this site.

That's a word that gets bandied around a lot without people understanding its meaning or its application.

Actually, they aren't.  They're a privilege, not a right.  A privilege which can be removed from any user, at any time, regardless of whether or not they meet external legal requirements.
This message had punctuation tweaked by the user at 20:23, Wed 30 July 2014.

There's one thing I don't understand about locking adult access behind subscription to verify age... how are you gonna do it? Depending on the country you don't have to be 18+ to own a credit card (I've had since I was 16 and a debit card before that) and even if you have there are other ways to pay through paypal that anyone regardless of age could use.

I understand paying for perks and donating/paying to keep the place alive and for your time but as someone who works with PayPal's APIs and business stuff I simply don't understand how that is 'more secure' than asking for an age statement and trusting the member.

Right, so for those who think our plan is bad: please suggest a better one that you've researched.  Not a random idea -- an actual plan to replace the one that we've talked about and whittled on for the last decade.

I'm not saying it's bad, in fact I think it's pretty good, but just that I don't understand that one reason behind restricting adult access. And it's an honest question not trying to pick a fight or whatever.

Anyone want the opinion of a newbie?

I'm working on a character for one game and it's an Adult one.  Really from what I see, it's only rated at that for language and potential violence.  Not for any sexual content.

As a new person to the site I've noticed a sledge hammer like approach to keeping minors out of adult rated games.  I haven't directly seen, but have the impression of that hammer coming down on a Mature game that goes a little too far.  As a GM on another site for a Call of Cthulhu: Delta Green game I would rate my game Adult just to save the hassle.  I've also had bad experience with teenagers in games anyway, so that is only a plus.

The issue is this; if I found this site and noticed all the rules for games (rules that I DO agree with) and noticed I had to pay for access, I wouldn't have bothered to even continuing to look at the site.  You are liable to alienate any "new customers" by a 'pay to play' approach.  So far, very few games have looked to interest me (and I play a wide variety).  You would likely only bring in new blood by those that either get started in a non-adult game or are brought in by friends.  Attrition would slowly whittle down the players.

From reading through this forum, the problem looks to be either access to adult games and conformation of age or playing to keep the site operational.  Or both.  If it's minors accessing adult games we find a solution to that.  If it's paying to keep the site operational, we find it's solution.  If it's both, you don't combine the solutions.

Possible solutions to access:

1. Facebook linking
   
2. ID Pictures (editing out address and number)
   
3. Access upon initial account generation (rather than for each game)

Obviously each of these has it's own issues, but no matter what you do someone will get around it.  Using credit cards to verify age does nothing.  Children can get their own cards or their parent's or a prepaid one while adults might not have one (I don't) due to poor credit or living in a country that doesn't readily have them.  Paying for adult access is just NOT a valid way to determine age.  You'll probably have more kids paying for adult access and lose adults that can't.

Possible solutions to site support:

1. Banner adds.  Many people are opposed to them, but now-a-days, they are everywhere.  Most people don't even SEE them anymore.
   
2. Pay to Play.  This will alienate new players unless some modification is done.
   
3. Donations.  Helpful, but futile.  Too little and too far between.

If it's going to be pay to play (and if you can't make the money off just adds, I don't see any other way) make it fair.  Make everyone pay.  Stage things though.  Either start new players off with access for a time for free or allow one or two free games.  Track IP's with software to prevent multiple accounts.  If you want more games, THEN you start paying.  Stage the price for multiple game access.  This has the benefit of bringing in the most money from the people that use the site the most.  The person that plays one or two games isn't paying the same as the one that plays ten.

Back to the original point.  If I had stumbled across this site the way I did and found out I had to pay to access it, I wouldn't have even given it a second glance.  I've found tons of forum based RPG sites and only play on a few.  Most I haven't but barely looked at because of various reasons, but none I saw I had to pay for.  I would have seen the 'pay-to-play' laughed and never came back.  And a site HAS to have new blood.

Well, another site I am on, before it gave me access to anything I had to go through an extensive application process, this process not only told them a lot about my age, but also told them a lot about my personality and whether I was the type to follow directions given to me in the forms of questions, but also showed them how I interacted with people. Perhaps you could implement something like this for them to gain access to the adult section? It tells them to give an example of something you remember from your childhood, something like that well....it might be faked but the extensive questions and stuff could help you weed out the maturity level of the person because we all know, age does not beget maturity.

I must be weird. I am perfectly happy to donate to the site, even if I did not play adult games. In fact... I should see how to donate some time.

Ah reminds me of Walmart Fireflights. Gave a "management" test that was really just a personality test to try and weed people out of the crowd. Makes me wonder about the people who failed it. We had all sorts work there...

EDIT: I am in one, got so far behind I keep meaning to ask the gm to remove me. For at this point I have no idea what is going on.
This message was last edited by the user at 20:57, Wed 30 July 2014.

In reply to Merevel (msg # 87):

Yes I don't play adult games myself (don't have any issue with them, I just haven't paid any attention to rating and so ... not in any).  Yet I've repeatedly donated to the site and would certainly subscribe (in spite of volunteering, too).

It's a site that's kept me coming back for years.  I've gotten more value from it than from my cable subscription, for certain. ;-)

In reply to cruinne (msg # 88):

Yes, but again, the pay-to-play would repel new people.  You can't look at it from the "I've been here for years and would happily pay."  You have to look at the people that are just coming in.  Are they going to be willing to pay for something that they haven't had a chance to even try?

It's not pay to play, but rather pay for an extra perk of adult rated games.

In reply to Shannara (msg # 90):

Yes, but many people seem to make their games Adult just to avoid the hassle of making sure to keep within certain boundaries.

My Delta Green game (on another site) I would make Adult because of the language and horror and just the fact that I don't want immature kids playing.

In reply to fireflights (msg # 86):

That might work here, if we had a lot less new members every day, and a lot more Mods with nothing else to do apart from interviewing people all day.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 92):

Automate it.  Questionnaire style.

Problem is questionnaires are easy to fake.

Not even sure how you'd automate something like, "Give an example of something you remember from your childhood." and a set of follow-up questions that would apply to their example.

You could ask those who have been here for years that have always followed the rules to the best of their ability to work as approvers, just give them access to that alone? Might help

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 95):

Point, I sure don't know.  Just most questionnaires I've taken were all multiple choice.

The issue I see is bringing new people in.  You have to keep that.  And no matter what you do, you aren't going to keep kids out.  It's like hackers, they'll find a way.

Personally, I doubt I could afford to stay.  I'm a 41 y.o. single and disabled Vet w/ 5 kids.  I can't afford crap.  My computer still runs XP and XP was new when this computer was built.

Adult content may not be a right, but a lot of people still use the rating for other reasons, and the fact it is used by so many people for these reasons beyond graphic content means that making it specifically cost money could put a divide in the players. A far larger one than just those who want graphic content. It's convenient and over the last decade been ingrained in the players as something available. After all, all games technically can be taken from players via a GM or a mod, regardless of rating. I'm afraid if this happens, the site would loose a lot of the ones who have been here faithfully for years and are most likely to buy a proper subscription that would include bells and whistles, or donate. In the end, most people who use Adult content for one reason or another will deem it unfair and probably leave rpol, and thus leave it without the support it would need. That's ultimately what I worry about because I do love this site.

I do think for ideas beefing up the subscription with really nice benefits would help with the finances, as I know that's what most free to play sites do. Also as much as ads are annoying, a banner on top isn't the worst thing in the world, especially if the situation becomes so bad Rpol becomes pay by play. I don't think making people pay for what should really be a free is a good idea, but pushing the entire cost onto one set would be even worse. I don't think most people would see Adult content as being a "benefit" of the subscription because it has been free for so long. It would feel like it's being torn away and people would be far less likely to actually stick around and try to support Rpol. And then of course the issues above are in regards to payment in general for what most deem should be free play.

As someone who plays adult games and has read all the info provided on subscriptions I'm all for them.
Heck, I'd possibly even pay for subscriptions without perks, as long as the subscriptions were optional. That we're getting perks like adult access only makes them better.
However, I'd hate an entry interview.

And @ Gaffer: you're right. Facepalm. That's the second time today I've accidentally turned illiterate...
This message was last edited by the user at 21:35, Wed 30 July 2014.

I think a lot of people are looking at this the wrong way.  it seems lime ultimately it will come down to either making subscriptions required for adult games, adult games be removed from the site, or rpol shut down period.  So saying it isn't fair to make people pay to play adult games is assuming the adult games SHOULD be available.  The adult restrictions are to avoid legal repercussions being brought upon the moderators because of minors seeing adult content.  So They either have to secure it better, or remove it.  It can't remain free like it is now, forever.

So while paying to play adult games may mean some players leave, the alternative would be no players at all for adult games, or possibly any games if the site can not be maintained further.  There really isn't another option.

But that's not entirely true, it's not like that subscription money won't be going to updating servers, new features and other site costs... So again, as I stated in my earlier post it is the few paying for the whole. An it doesn't solve the things that have been listed as issues/reasons for this implementation.

A subscription based on credit cards or PayPal wouldn't be any more secure than the honour system is now in regards to age verification.

If you have issues policing and maintaining the adult section now, subscription wouldn't help that, you need more mods/admins.

An as my above post mentioned, having there be a period which a one-time fee would grant life-time adult access doesn't seem like a permanent fix to anything. It doesn't resolve issues.  It certainly wouldn't help with policing Adult activity, in fact I can see it creating even more issues because if you think people are confused now as to whether or not they have the right to play in adult games (vs a privilege) taking money from them certainly won't help, it would only exacerbate that issue. Want to convince someone they have a right to something (whether or not it's true)?

Take their money.




Expand the site to the point so that you have site wide administrators/mods under you and their task/function is to police things that you can't do alone?



As are age statements. A subscription basis wouldn't be much more secure, as has been pointed out by almost every side of this discussion. If policing adult activity as a main issue, money won't solve that, manpower would.

I'll be the one to ask, fine, what is so bad about how age is verified now?  That question is slightly rhetorical but, it's not like this sites system is any different from the 'Go back if you're not 18. If you're 18 or above click next' method that most places use. This one actually asks for a statement of age and, I assume, logs it.

Why not have that as part of the registration for the site? When someone makes a user account they have to put in birthdate information and what not and that automatically filters content based on age, or at least logs age so that if that user becomes flagged it can be a quick and easy way for the mods to determine/verify?

No, not perfect, that could be manipulated as easily as someone lying about their date of birth, but it's one measure of security at least.

When does trust in the user base over something like age get past the point of total mistrust?

Perhaps I'm alone but, is it wrong that I don't really care what a child reads here? Its not like the content here is any worse than the twelve year old on Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto. Actually, this is better than that...at least on this the child is reading and writing rather than playing some violent video game/watching a horror movie.  Yeah, I'm apathetic to it, but is it really any different than a child reading a book?  Again, I see this as the better of the two, this way the child is reading/writing, not paying a hooker and then killing her to get his money back before going on a crime spree.



Other ideas have been suggested, they are simply ones you don't like, doesn't make the suggestion itself invalid, particularly if it's something your user base is talking about.  As stated in my above post, there are many sites which operate (some bigger and some smaller) without a subscription basis (site wide or group specific) and yes, while those sites often implement ads or some kind of in-site store along with accepting donations from the user base, it doesn't really seem to have deterred the population of those sites.

Again, you mentioned YouTube. Have you stopped frequenting YouTube, Facebook, Reddit or a number of other sites? If not why did you suggest above that the same type of features here would cause you to abandon this one?

You mention having discussed this for the last decade. To me that suggests that either you aren't happy with it or can't think of a way to administer it properly. If either are the case, then perhaps open the discussion up a little more, even if that takes you in a direction you aren't comfortable with. Have a 'focus group' of sorts of the sites user base to determine what's the most feasible thing. Ads, site wide subscription, group specific subscription, etc...

Reddit is massive and it doesn't cost it's users anything, but it has an in-site store with merchandise, has 'perks' that users can buy for themselves or others (Reddit gold), etc...

I do trust that if the site does go with a subscription, whether site-wide or content based, the 'perks' and advantages would warrant the cost. But I think making adult content part of that is a mistake because that cost will not only be filtered to adult content or policing it, it will be used site wide. Everyone pays $20 and then cancels, gets life-access to adult content, that doesn't help police the content, doesn't eliminate issues and doesn't offer a way which is more secure in verifying age.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 21:49, Wed 30 July 2014.

From that angle I can completely understand. I suppose I'm just partially confused by and I'm sure people will be concerned or upset about is the fact that the idea of using pay check to block minors for that reason won't work better than what's already implemented or any of the other options. So then where is that money going if minors can't be permanently blocked either way? I can't speak for others, but I personally would pay for a subscription if it means my games are safe and I can play them. However I think the concern is that it's not exactly clear what the money is going towards, and if its adult content exclusive.

I feel if it was going exclusively to protecting the site from adult restrictions and other adult content issues, people would understand. But it seems - at least from what I've read - there's an overall issue of funding trying to be addressed. So the concern comes from if certain people have to pay for perks, then THEY should get the perks. They should be paying for the ability to play the games, but that cost shouldn't be raised to fund other endeavors or used for other uses to benefit users who pay nothing. I think that's what the main issue is beyond the general notion that some people can't afford it period.

I wouldn't want the money I spend to play adult games used for anything other than rpol's ability to MAINTAIN adult games for me to play. If my money and the money of a select few was used for the benefit of others who pay nothing, or a system of protecting adult games that is no better or efficient than the original system that was completely free to us I would deem and do deem that completely unfair.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:52, Wed 30 July 2014.

Which is likely why this has been discussed for a decade and not implemented.  Subscriptions seemed like the best option for improving security, but that has many problems, as has been stated.  Ultimately it is up to Jase and the moderators to decide how much cost and work they want to take on, ad we will just have to accept their choice, or move on.  Nothing lasts forever, and you can't expect them to shoulder all the cost and responsibility for this site so thousands of players can do it for free.  Eventually it will have to change, and there is no way to please everyone.

Maybe down the line a better option than subscriptions will present itself, and judging by the delay in enacting subscriptions it seems that's likely what the moderators are hoping for.  But if push comes to shove, they will probably have to make a decision and stick to it.

And if you feel it isn't right to make adult content part of the pay portion of the game, and Jase and the others decide to make it that way,then there is nothing to do about it.  The moderators see and experience a lot more than we players do, so they are the only ones to truly be in a position to make this decision.  And they are also the only ones who will bear the responsibility of not putting it in place if it comes to it.  So whatever they decide, we will have to live by.  It's their site.

Of course. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't voice our concerns, or ask questions. The best that can happen is that the community's ideas do help spark some ideas in the mods and maybe better the situation. The worse is that questions can be answered and we as players can at least understand where they are coming from and have as many details available so we can make our own decisions about the site. In the end that's really all we can do: hope things are discussed and even if things aren't perfect, hope that at least some questions can be answered and some fears eased about the situation. :)

One of the points brought up is that people that pay to play, you are now granting them that right.  You can't take it away.  If you find out later that they are under 18 you might even need to refund that money if you deny them access.

And if you have someone over 18 that is just an immature moron?  Good luck getting rid of them.  They have now PAID you for access.  Trying to deny them would be like you paying you cable bill and Comcast deciding you don't deserve HBO.  You couldn't even pass a message around to the GM's stating "Don't let him play".  If that person found that out there could be repercussions.

I still like my idea of a tiered system.

Free for 1 or 2 games.
$ X for 3 or 4
$ XX for 5 or 6
etc.

Seems much better with little chance of driving off new players.

You wouldn't be paying just to play Adult games though.  You would be paying for a subscription, and that subscription includes Adult access as ONE of its features.

Also note that maintaining your Adult games includes site upgrades and maintenance, the two are not exclusive.  Adult games rely on the site, as a whole, being maintained and upgraded.

I would also like to ask that people remember that all users with thoughts on this issue should be heard.

At some point, that means not attempting to restate one opinion multiple times -- once you've made a point, please allow jase the courtesy of knowing that it will read and considered, but stating it 2, 3 or 20 times gives the same person's opinion no more weight than if it is stated just once.

I know that feelings are strong on this issue -- mine are as well.  So please do tell us what you think, but also please read what has already been discussed, and don't take every post that does not agree as a need to post a refutation.

I hope that everyone here can see that there are a lot of issues that need to be considered, and we're not doing anything callously, lightly, or even immediately.

I don't think it would be too difficult to deny access to someone who breaks the posted rules for the site, even if they pay.  As long as the rules are clearly spelled out and say that if you break them you will be blocked from the site, you have no recourse against that action if you then break the rules.

It would be the same as a EULA statement for an MMO.  you may pay to play those, but if you break their rules they can remove your account.  No legal recourse against that.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:05, Wed 30 July 2014.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 108):

True to a point.  The thing is you have to be precise.  Booting someone for being "immature" isn't precise.  You have to lay everything down upfront.  Exactly what is and isn't allowed.

Inappropriate language is quite specific (in regards to EULA statements).  You run into issues where people are being disruptive to games, but aren't breaking rules.  And "being disruptive" isn't precise.  What I consider disruptive and what you consider disruptive are two separate things.

A EULA is a contract, written by lawyers.  Unless anyone here is in business law and wants to give the site a freebie, I doubt they'll have even a close to applicable EULA for this situation.

The most a user could claim in terms of damages for breach of contract would be the amount paid.  I suspect (but do not know) if a truly immature/irritating/whatever individual paid, the moderators would be only too happy to refund the person's money to get rid of him/her.

Particularly given the low amount of money that has been discussed; I suspect Jase et al. would be happy to part with it under such circumstances.

it could be worded that continued activity that the gm of a game considers disruptive would be grounds for removal.  If you agree to pay, you agree to that definition.  And yes, I know any definition will have some problems, but it would be a way for them to limit most negative behavior.

As a GM who runs an adult game, my greatest concern with this discussion is for my players. I've got a very excellent group that's been around for a year and a half. I know for a fact that several of those players have a very tenuous connection to this site. For them, this is a casual hobby, and it's something akin to a miracle that we've been as consistent as we have been. My game is their only game. It is very possible that I could lose players if this policy is implemented as stated.

That would be very troubling to me.

I spend a lot of time on this site. I refresh a lot. I post maps. I'm careful about the formatting of my posts, and I use a lot of the GM features provided. As someone in my position, I really feel like a subscription service should do more to target individuals like me, rather than casual people like my players. My game is adult rated because we want to be able to talk in the same way we do when we're around a game table. We're adults, and we want to interact like adults. This is not something a casual player should have to pay for.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 111):

Disruptive behaviour in a game wouldn't be covered, just as it isn't covered by our current rules.  That sort of thing is handled by the individual GM's using their own tools (removal from the game, game bans, etc) and their own rules, and does not affect site access.

Breaches of the site's ToU are handled by the Site Mods, including inappropriate language in public forums, multiple accounts, violation of the sites content restrictions, and participating in Adult games while not eligible to do so.

Not very practical IMHO.

So you're playing in 2 Adult games. You see some more games you want to join so pay your fee and now you are on 4 games. Then you want to join another so up your subscription to be in 5 games. Then a few weeks later one of the original games dies and you drop down to 4, then a few weeks after that you decide than two other games aren't great so drop out. Now you are back to 2 games.

Your subscription fee could potentially change every month which would require a lot of admin to monitor. Admin costs money.

Far simpler to have a YES/NO on Adult access, then you can play in 1 or 100 Adult games, depending on your personal choices.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:30, Thu 31 July 2014.

It would be awesome to have some kind of donation scheme, too, although I don't know how that would work.  At a Risk site where I play, we can buy premium for other players.  Since part of the subscription's point is to have a better method of controlling adult access, a similar donation plan might not work, but I wonder if we could have some kind of matching donation scheme, or donate toward an account.  If a GM really can't afford the $20 or whatever for the one-time adult access pass, perhaps they could afford a minimum of $5 of the other players can help put up the other $15.  The same with a long-running Adult game that has a player who is on a limited income and really shouldn't be spending $20 on an online roleplaying site.  Surely $5 is doable, and the rest could come from people who donate to that account.

Donations would be made in the spirit of giving to the site, or even in the spirit of thanking a GM for a well-run game.

The concern of a shrinking player base is a valid one, I think.  RPOL has a great community of users and a large pool of players to draw from, but dwindling numbers of premium-only Adult game players may drive games away from the site.  I'd love to see some kind of plan that would prevent that from happening.

Chess sites typically tier access based on the subscription plan bought, with non-premium players restricted to just a few games.  The Risk-like site I play at similarly limits non-premiums to four games.

I wonder if there could be a premium and a premium-lite option, with the latter for people who only play in one or two adult games.  If you want to play in more, you need to pony up the full price, and the premium-lite access would only be good for one year at a time, not in perpetuity.

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 115):

Laudable but unrealistic. What happens when you pay your $5 and two weeks later the GM gets a new job that means no more time for RPOL and so quits. Do you ask for a refund?

Donations are alread in place. Some members are very generous and I thank them for it.

To limit the number of Adult games is, as I stated earlier, unfeasible. If you see a new game that looks good do you quit your current game to take a punt on it, or up your subscription? If you do up your subscription and the game dies a month later do you then drop your subscription level? Too much admin for you and for the administrators of the site.

The only realistic subscription model is one level for normal access, one level for Adult access. Fee levels for each are TBC but any other model is simply impossible to manage in a cost-effective manner.

Easy enough to have the system handle that.  At the beginning of every month it totals how many games you are active in posting in and totals that and compares it to a list.  And it need not be done every month either.

Just doing a flat fee for one alienates new players.  I for one would never pay to play when I haven't even tried the game.  Why would I pay for something I might end up not liking?  There is a reason game companies go through all the work to put demos together.  Not only does it draw people in that haven't thought about it, but it brings people in that might otherwise not even think about it otherwise.

I didn't suggest a free period or demo trial because that would possibly cause havoc in games themselves as people try it out and then don't or aren't able to subscribe.  Having a single free game allows them access to see what is there and tiering the price puts the burden on the more active players.

I wouldn't even see a problem with this enabled across the board for all games.  You have a game or two that is free, above that, you pay.  You literally pay for the server usage you use.  Just like many off site storage companies, you pay for what levels you want.  The free game or so gives the ability to draw in new players, keeps players around who can't afford to pay, and provides structure for the people that run multiple games.

As it stands, I was probably going to run a game on here at some point soon, but without knowing how, when, or the price, I can't do that.  I can't invest the time nor the energy into getting a game going and expect the players to do the same to find out six months from now I'm going to have to play $20 a month to play Hunter: The Reckoning and Run Call of Cthulhu: Delta Green.  Not when I'm scraping by to provide for my family.

I am a relatively new addition to the RPoL family, so I was initially going to keep my head out of this discussion. However, I now think my opinion might actually be relevant.

I bounced between a lot of roleplaying communities before I settled down in this one. Infrno, MyDNDGame, dozens more whose name elude at this time. I settled down here because it had a lot of players, a competent system, and staff who not only knew their butts from their faces but made every effort to ensure the right fluids issued from each. I did notice RPoL had provisions for adult material, but this was just a nice bonus that meant little relative to the above reasons. I wouldn't miss the option of adult games at all.

HOWEVER!

While I, personally, say remove adult access if it's causing such an administrative headache, I don't think that's a realistic solution. You'll just end up with a massive number of people passing off adult content as merely mature, which is far more likely to get this wonderful site into some deep doody. A paywall isn't going to be much better. You'd need a more technical solution, and there are a lot of digital resources that simply did not exist however many years ago when this conversation apparently first came up.

While I was following this discussion (I'm not going to go back and read it from the start; these are some long posts!) someone mentioned Facebook integration as an age verification method. I'm a member of the "Social Media is The Devil!" camp so I'd have to argue against this, not to mention that Facebook seems to be on the way out (if I say this enough times, it might actually become true). What about the big all-subsuming megalith that is Google? I'm sure they have some kind of API for integration and you could set up age verification with that. There has to be other possible candidates as well. Sure, you have to deal with the privacy concerns, but... well... I'm not sure how long RPoL can stay in this idealistic little bubble. No ads! No banners! No social tracking! If you want reliable age verification and not just people stealing their parents' credit cards, something has to go.

This, of course, all assumes everyone is serious when they say this whole discussion isn't actually about money.

Stepping back for a moment, if subscriptions or one-off donations go in, please please please give us a personal portrait gallery. Just five would be fantastic!
This message was last edited by the user at 11:34, Thu 31 July 2014.

Tying RPoL to any social media platform like Facebook for any sort of verification purpose is not under consideration.  For one thing, it mostly verifies that they have access to more information to better target you with ads and/or provide your information to their affiliates.

Age verification services cost money, and if they aren't solely tied to making a payment, then they require the revelation of a lot of very personal information, and someone has to pay for the checking.  If you think there's concern now, do you think people are going to give their name, address, DOB, SS# (or other) to some service to have their age verified?

And then a fee would still have to be paid for verification.  Ain't nobody out there doing that kind of stuff for free.

Google can't verify age -- and while they might be able to sift through their data to have some good ideas -- I haven't noticed that they're offering to hand out their information for free.

If it's not tied to payment here, then how should all those other methods be paid for?  If you know of some that are free, then let us know and we'll check it out.

Otherwise, while it may be true, 'there must be a better way' is a nice sentiment rather than a constructive suggestion.  There probably should be, but we've been looking and we haven't found it yet.

And I apologize if this doesn't sound right -- I don't mean to dismiss anyone's opinion, but only to add that most high profile options have already been considered and rejected for the practical reasons that they cost $$, or the same objections that people have to subscriptions apply there as well.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:43, Thu 31 July 2014.

I hardly did an iota of research on the matter, just speaking from my gut. Anything I said that doesn't sound right... probably isn't!

Right, this is why I said a donation should be considered as a donation to RPOL.  On other sites that allow users to buy premiums for other users, there's nothing to stop the second user from leaving either.  It might be too much of a bookkeeping issue, I guess, but it would be one way to help users who might be financially limited.



Yep, as a user, if you decide to go up to the next level, the subscription needs to be non-refundable.  It's not exactly the same on chess sites, but one I play on has four tiers of premium, each of which allows players to play more games and concurrent tournaments.  If a user chooses to bump up a level to play another tournament, say, and then decides not to join another tournament, they stay at that level until the subscription runs out.  We do have users here that only play in one or two games, and they're not looking for more.

In reply to Shannara (msg # 119):

Re: Tying RPoL to social media like Facebook "not under consideration" --

Thank you!

I guess I need to read more of this thread, but did you just say once subscriptions are in the number of games we are allowed in will be based on the subscription?

No, sorry, the current plan is that the number of games won't be limited.  All users will be able to join as many General and Mature games as they wish, and subscribers can also join as many Adult games as they wish.

In reply to Merevel (msg # 123):

As far as I am aware the suggested model is this:

- Continued free unlimited access to Standard & Mature games for everyone.
- Access to unlimited Adult games for subscribers only.

The debate is the method of subscription, and then the cost level involved.

And Payment, as has been discussed in the past, some members do not have access to the commonality of credit cards or paypal.

Money orders? they are only about 60 cents(varying according to location) but I am sure that takes out 1/2 the reason. How can you verify the age of who sends the money order?

In reply to Merevel (msg # 127):

Or you can buy a pre-paid credit card. Though again, not sure how doing that'll help verify age...

Also note for clarification:
Although not finalized, it has been presented that not only 'subscribers' would have access to Adult games.

Access to Adult games theoretically required:
 Current Subscription (as has been discussed)
  or
 Grandfathered account with a Single payment (of something) paid through chosen means of providing an Age Verified payment.  [making the account a verified, Adult eligible account, for its lifetime (or breach of TOS)]

So someone might not be a subscriber... not getting the 'perks' but still have Adult access.  [unless I am mistaken about the suggestion which was likely going to be a part of it somehow]

I bring it up because it seems people keep jumping back to it having to be a maintained subscription.  [and while that might end up being true in the end, discussion such has implied there would at least be some means of providing current accounts an easier way to maintain their current status, without requiring a recurrent charges/verifications]

Yes. I don't know how C.C. companies offer age verification, but I suspect that if someone used a prepaid CC that had no 'identity or age' attached to it, it would probably not work for payment in the discussed situation.

Then that would be the rub. How do you say no to valid payment methods? Using Paypal/creditcard methods for payment should mean it's just fine using prepaid card. It's just checking to see if the cash is available.

If a CC is not avail where someone lives, a prepaid is not likely available either.

In reply to gillisle02 (msg # 131):

I was more talking about people that might not have a bank account or a CC, but ARE in a place where they could buy a pre-paid card. It was in reply to "some members do not have access to the commonality of credit cards or paypal". I didn't limit that to location and included financial circumstances.

The whole no credit card thing, that's myself.  My credit is shot to hell.  I can't buy a pack of gum on credit.  I don't have a bank account either.  So how do I subscribe?  (disregarding the whole thing of how much it is and whether I can afford it.)

No one seems to want to address the issue of bringing new blood into the games.  You are going to have very little in the way of new players buying into the adult games.

You guys are still looking at this as if it is something that can be avoided.  The site HAS to find a way to better police the age verification.  If a credit card bill is a legal way to pass culpability from the site to the owner of the credit card, then it will work for the site.  It works for pretty much any other adult site or service out there.

If there is an alternative way to verify age that is as accepted as a credit card number, then they would probably accept it's use.  But it seems there really aren't many other options that are accepted legally.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 134):

But if the site has been doing it for 10+ years, why is it that suddenly now this is something that needs to be addressed? I understand that mod's time is certainly a factor, but there are plenty of people bringing up reasons why the idea wouldn't work and would seemingly horribly backfire in a myriad of ways.

• Credit cards can be obtained, borrowed, worked around to falsify age.
• Not everyone has a credit card or access to paypal.
• Not everyone has the funds to pay for a subscription*.

Those are the three main points I've seen over and over and I wholly agree with them. And so I don't get smacked down by a mod for not being "constructive" and "offering up fully fleshed out ideas" which is a ridiculous request in and of itself for a forum seemingly dedicated to voicing concerns and trying to actively work out a communal fix to our worries, I offer my thoughts.

When users sign up for an account here on RPOL, add in an age question where they fill out D/M/Y and, as many people have mentioned up until this point, distribute access based on said age grouping. >18 has access to the Community Forums, General, and Mature games while <18 have the same with the additional access to Adult games. While it won't be water-tight, neither is the honor system or the credit card system. It does however eliminate the possible exclusion of dedicated gamers who love this site and use it for entertainment, escape, etc. The added benefit here is that if people are just coming into the site, they might not even know that the adult games are limited to the upper age category. This preemptive lock out keeps people from seeing that there is one and actively then trying to thwart the system to gain access.

The whole problem I see goes back to that last line. People are coming into RPOL, seeing there are adult rated games, and THEN being asked to provide a statement that they can play in them. Likewise with a donation system like has been suggested, locking them out unless they pay will only encourage the cheating of the system to gain access if they wouldn't normally be able to access it. If they never had access to them in the first place, you would significantly cut down on that sort of behavior. Likewise, those that enter their birth year as something like 1900 can easily be rMailed about the validity of their age statement.

With that sort of front-end verification, you could isolate subscriptions to being solely for perks, bells and whistles, and make it a positive experience for everyone who chooses to buy one (which I'd wager is a large portion of the community. This site rocks after all). In my opinion, the perception problem we're having here is just as important, if not more-so, than the age problem. If people see the subscription as a punishment, you're going to get resentment, dropout, and new player dropoff. And that goes for even if the subscription would otherwise be f'in awesome. One negative thing can easily ruin something meant to be something fun and rewarding for those who want to participate.

Long story short, I really believe that you need to separate the age statement problem from the subscription option altogether or you're going to have a massive problem with many players. This obviously isn't a be-all and end-all solution-- more like a finger in the levy, but it will serve to improve the situation while still keeping the subscription option as a whole a widely liked and accepted idea. And you know what? If it came down to the fact that it still wasn't working and decided to go ahead and do it anyway down the line, you'd already have the existing subscriber's information you think you'll be getting from their payments and be able to gain new subscriber's information after you lock Adult games behind the paywall anyway.

And I do hate that it has seemingly become a prerequisite to have to state how much a person loves the site or appreciates Jase and the mods for their work to be able to post without being torn a new one for constructive criticism like I was earlier on in this thread, but the truth is that I do and I am. I've been on RPOL for 2 years and it's been an amazing experience. I am only posting here because I am invested in the site's future and want nothing but the best for it and its community. The breakdown of the site on something so small and avoidable would not be in my best interest so I'm doing my part to help look for alternatives. I wholly plan on buying a sub myself regardless of what it includes and if adult games get locked to subscribers, will make sure all of my players have an account if I have to pay for the whole thing myself. So please don't think I'm sitting here as someone who just wants to freeload and not deal with single inconvenience or anything.

So, yeah. There you have it.

---

* I see a lot of people trying to justify that point by saying that everyone should be able to cough up some money but the reality of the situation is that just because you can't imagine a case where someone couldn't pay a small service, there are plenty of people living paycheck-to-paycheck and even then barely eking by. Asking them to "just cough up some money and stop whining" is an unacceptable sentiment. There are always situations that you will not think of / understand but have to take into account the possibility of anyway.

My point is, that if a credit card is legally accepted as a verification of age, such as on rental cars, hotels, pornographic sites, etc, then RPOL wouldn't be held responsible if a kid got a hold of the parent's credit card.  The owner of the credit card would be.  This is an accepted form of age verification.

I'm not saying RPOL has to make the decision immediately.  Jase and the mods have said it isn't going to happen anytime soon.  But they have said that they do have to come up with a working plan, that will inevitably have to be implemented.  So if the time comes that it DOES need to be implemented, they will need it planned out.  And unfortunately, protecting the site legally is more important than helping the members that can't afford it.  So credit card verification, right now, is probably the best of a lot of not real great options.

The issue that I see is that in helping the site, you are possibly looking at hurting it.

Most new players are not going to come to a sight and pay for a game they have no idea about.  Look through the Adult games.  How many would you pay money to play in.  I'm not talking about games you're already a part of.  From a new person's perspective.

You'll have the occasional person that comes in through a friend or gets into an adult game from a lower rated one through players or GMs of their regular games.  But they will be a MUCH lower number than what you see drawn in now.

So now we have a much reduced flow of new blood into the Adult games.  Add to that, normal attrition of players and you have the very likely scenario of a dwindling player base in the Adult games.

Maybe the correct solution isn't one solution.  Maybe we can combine solutions.

ok, so if the site is pressed with legal action next week, and told that they have to increase age verification or close down, what are they supposed to do?  They will have to take the one avenue that is most accepted, even though it alienates players.

I'm not arguing that it is a great course of action.  I'm not arguing it won't hurt the site.  But it may end up being something that has to happen.

Er, it isn't "suddenly" something that needs to be addressed.  This is something that has been in planning for ten years (and still is).  Nothing sudden about it.

Say jase were to announce, "Okay.  All adult games have to be removed from the site."  I bet he wouldn't give ten years notice of that change.

I like this suggestion. As Visceri said it won't cure all ills, but at least it should remove the need to make the declaration every time you apply to a new adult game. Once you have entered your DoB at sign up you can be asked to confirm it is correct then cannot change it later.

Maybe for those not adult-approved the Request Access button for Adult games can be greyed out so they cannot even apply for those games. It would make the GMs life a bit easier.

Yes I realise that this might lead to an increase in minors creating duplicate accounts but that is going to happen anyway.

Which is already against the ToS.



I too think this is a good suggestion.  Monitor adult traffic this way by having the user state/declare their age and have that linked to their account.

So, rather than the current system, where GMs have to check ages in every game (which a lot of people complain about), we replace it with a single age check, with no actual means of verification, which never has to be repeated?

Not really seeing this as an improved system, to be honest.

Well, yes, maybe from the PoV of people wanting quick, easy access to adult games (whatever their actual age) it's better, but from a legal and site security PoV it is far worse than what we have now.

What I was considering was tie the date of birth statement with their username, so that when they post on the forum or request access it's there.  Now, how you choose to verify that, I'm assuming, would be something more than 'Click here if you're over 18'  but, if it isn't... That's not really different than any other site that asks once and then never again.

Well, we could verify it with a credit card.  But that seems to be unpopular...


Other sites are free to shirk their responsibilities if they want to.

Yet all of these sites rarely, if ever, see any repercussions for it. Why is it that RPOL needs to be so much more stringent about it? I ask this not as an angry retort but as a genuine question. At what point does it come down to the users liability and not the site?

That's the rub though.  Access to a credit card isn't proof positive of someone being over 18 the same as not having access to a credit card is proof that you are under 18.

Is the goal just to verify age or is it supporting the site?  Or is it both?  I'm not saying that support of the site isn't a valid goal, but if it is site support it requires a different path as just age verification.

Legally, once you have made the attempt to block users from access as minors (even a "Are you over 18" pop up) w/ a terms of service agreement, it is the responsibility of the end user.

In reply to pfarland (msg # 147):

And that's what I thought it to be as well. So instead of having the system where they constantly have to supply age statements in each adult game they play in, a practice with its questionable legal validity when it comes down to being good enough to keep RPOL out of hot water, a blanket front-end question of age should cover not just the adult game populace, but all users on RPOL just to be safe. At that point, you can stop fretting about it and be bale to focus your attention on more important things on the site or *gasp* in real life (gods forbid, who needs that :P)!

For me, it's because it's not that much stronger than the honour system.

Also, I don't really like giving out my banking information to be honest.

Not saying I don't trust you guys/this site, but I have been burned in the past.




Haha, brilliant.

Can I ask.  Is anyone concerned that sequestering the adult content behind a paid-for subscription might actually draw more legal issues?   Because then not only is there a question/argument regarding the distribution of pornography for profit, but there's also the issue of minors still getting around the system and the fact that money is involved does make that a lot more dangerous than the simple text-based fantasy world RPoL is now.  Not to mention the argument one might make regarding RPoL profiting from copyright infringement.

I could be wrong with all of the above though, I'm not saying the above is a fact. They might not be factors or the fact that money would become involved might not make any difference. I'm not a lawyer. Only curious.

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 145):

A lot of those sites do see repurcussions from it.  RPoL for example is not actually blocked from a wide variety of countries that have more stringent rules regarding Adult access.

Did you, for example, know that there are a large number of countries where it is not legal, for anybody (no matter their age) to access Adult content via the internet.  That's why we have the whole "it is legal for me to access adult content in my place of residence." section in the age statements.


Except that RPoL is an international site, and the law varies from country to country (the reason why our age requirements are "Over 18, and over the age of majority in your country").


And we are STILL waiting for somebody (anybody) to come up with a better suggestion - one that protects the site and its users - that hasn't been looked at, and discussed, before over the last ten years.
This message was last edited by the user at 07:13, Fri 01 Aug 2014.

This site discusses a lot of the legal issues around age verification:  http://www.firstamendment.com/site-articles/innocence/

It notes that online adult site age verification is in many cases woefully inadequate, and that other industries have already self-regulated themselves, such as the movie industry.  Credit card verification is seen as one of the acceptable methods of age verification by US law, and that's probably true for other countries as well.   The article says that sites with weak age verification, such as inputting a date or clicking a link that says, Yes, I'm 18 or older, will come under increased scrutiny in the coming years.

Some kind of age verification service would be more authoritative, I'm sure, but people are balking enough at the idea of paying for a subscription.  How much do these age verification sites charge?  I couldn't find a figure, but I bet they're not less than US $25, and they're probably a lot more than that. Who's going to pay for that?

The bottom line is that a simple statement of age is not enough.  It's a stopgap measure at best, and credit card verification, despite the flaws we see with it, is a legally accepted means of establishing age of majority.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 150):

Good point! Beware if logging in when travelling abroad in countries that may have stricter laws...

Overall it is going to be impossible for the site to have 100% age compliance, so all we can do is demonstrate that the site is making reasonable steps to prevent access by minors to adult material.

I don't see a major difference between giving your Age statement at user creation and when joining a new adult game. Both are easy to bypass if you really want to, but at least the site has made the effort. Suspect users could still be reported to mods.

A credit card check does give the site some level of protection. If a minor uses their parents card to access the site then that is the parent's problem, not the sites. And if they lie to a credit card company to obtain a card fraudulently then that is the card providers problem.

Rpol needs to be seen to be making reasonable steps to prevent misuse. 100% effectiveness is a laudable but unrealistic target.

Is there an alternative method of age verification? Sure, get everyone to scan their passport and email it to the mods for verification. Oh wait, you could just use your Dad's passport.... and not everyone has a passport... and that would mean a lot of work for the mods... back to the drawing board then! In all seriousness I can't think of a more legally effective method, and after 10 years of searching it seems nobody else can either.

From the new York times 2012 [Verifying Ages Online Is a Daunting Task, Even for Experts]

“I began to learn that age verification technologies would not address any of the major safety issues we identified,” said Danah Boyd, a senior researcher at Microsoft and co-director of the task force. [Internet Safety Technical Task Force]

“Companies do age verification because they know they’re supposed to, but everybody knows it doesn’t really work,” said Hemanshu Nigam, the former chief security officer at Myspace who now runs SSP Blue, an online security consultancy. “The truth is, there is no silver bullet.”

From Pinsent Masons, an international law firm, in the legal info section. [2009]

"Interactive Media in Retail Group's (IMRG) director of business development Andrew McClelland said that the body had no clear idea yet what a useful age verification system might be. He said that it was not possible simply to use credit cards to prove that a customer was over 18.

"Payment networks were not designed as a method of age verification and some pre-payment cards are coded as credit cards so it is difficult to judge what type of card is being used," he said.

McClelland said that to block pre-paid cards would bar certain kinds of customers from online shopping, which would not be acceptable.

"If we were to stop prepaid cards being used there are two million non banked people in the UK and the Government has a digital inclusion strategy. If we block them then they will have no access to a method of payment for online shopping," he said."


The Internet Safety Technical Task Force worked for 4 years and you have people in it saying 'age verification doesn't work but we do it because it looks good'. Then you have the other article that the credit card method doesn't work well and is bypassed by pre-paid cards. And getting rid of pre-paid cards affects 2-million in England. I imagine the number for the US is much greater.

So I can understand if the site wants to do it to get 'the man' off his back but I don't see it as being a good method of weeding out the young. At best it'll weed out the poor, the remote and the wary. Or worse, it'll force adult games to 'mature' ones so all that time saved by the age verification just goes to extra monitoring for the new 'hardcore mature' games that push that category to it's limits.

This, and a great many other of the arguments against the current vague, general brushstrokes of a plan for implementing subscriptions, is making the assumption that them majority of players are coming here to play Adult games (since the General and Mature games would be largely unaffected by the Subscription plans).

Given the HUGE number of non-Adult games currently running on RPOL, I can easily see why all the doomsday predictions of how much subscriptions for Adult Access don't seem to ruffle many feathers.  Most new players would likely come to the site, see what's available (outside the Adult areas, since they wouldn't yet have access to those), and decide, based on that, whether or not they were impressed enough to pony up the funds for a subscription to get all the extra bells and whistles.  And a lot of the people I know on here would likely still opt to play if they'd come here and hadn't had the option to start with Adult games right off the bat...

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 153):



This. Everything in elecgraystone's post is spot-on with my own feelings on the matter, but the final two statements really sum it up for me.

Much, much larger companies with vast amounts of resources have tried to tackle this issue, and even they don't appear confident in their success. I know you guys (the mods) are looking for solutions, rather than just complaints, so here's my attempt: have you considered implementing your subscription system in smaller steps?

Step 1: Set up a subscription payment method that is purely voluntary. Evaluate success.

Step 2: Add a small number of features to incentivize subscriptions. Evaluate success.

Step 3: Based on evaluations, determine risk of gating content.

Once things are in place, it might become more clear to everyone exactly what the viability of gating games by age might actually be. Financially, there might not even be a need for it. The site may even prove profitable enough to use a 3rd party age verification system of some kind, or a new solution might present itself.

In reply to Carakav (msg # 155):

Steps 1 to 2 are already planned (and mostly coded), as previously outlined.



If a parent doesn't investigate a charge on their credit card that says "One year subscription to RPoL including adult access for woof" then that's not the fault of the system.



Which is why we're investigating other methods of payment (and verification).  One of the main reasons that the initial idea stalled was that PP wasn't as far reaching as it is now.



We're continually investigating alternate ideas, including this, but there's a lot of problems with requesting a DOB.  Firstly, US law dictates that we can't ask a child under 13 their birthdate.  Secondly, collection of DOB for those 13 and over requires a specific set of consent forms and data security.  Thirdly, data privacy laws indicate we must delete the birthdate when the user leaves the site.  Fourthly, we are liable for the information collected and stored.  That's just the US requirements, there's many more.  Collection of personal information is a real can of worms.



I'm not sure which sites you're referring to, but I know a lot are only interested in covering their own arses.  That's been put as an option to the moderators many times but none of us are comfortable with doing the bare minimum.  It's part of being a responsible adult, a responsible member of our community, and because we're in a position of authority.

How many parents would be happy if our response was "meh, we did the bare minimum required by law"?

Happy to see jase touch upon the issue of data security, but let me be more explicit about this. The primary risk comes in the form of centrally locating a user's PII (personally identifying information) where I assume will at least partially be on-site on rpol servers (in the event of the use of a third party age verification system). This includes:

- DoB (obviously)
- Billing Address (which is stored within the financial exchange third party, and hopefully never touches rpol, though since different countries or even state/province/prefecture have varying laws about age of consent, the system has to know some of this).
- Name
- IP addresses (I don't know much about how rpol tracks multi abuse but this might be part of it), though that is not widely accepted as a legal means of verifying identity, it can be useful for criminal purposes.

Keep in mind that paypal itself, while it handles your actual financial data via the exchange, doesn't hold some of this data.

If you think legal action due to adult games is a problem, the site getting hacked to steal people's PII is a much worse one.

So I have a few questions:

- Does rpol employ legal council on retainer?
- Does rpol have a dedicated security team?
- What sort of encryption does rpol plan on implementing to facilitate this?
- Do we have an idea how the subscription system or new features added for it will impact system performance?

I am surprised this isn't the primary concern for people; when a corporation like Target, which has its own crime lab and enormous revenue can get hacked, the idea of having your data handled by rpol and a third party makes me nervous, as a past victim of identity theft and credit card fraud. Lots of things can go wrong with this process, and somewhat like the proliferation of dangerous weapons, the risks increase over longer time scales.

It seems to me that the site may be denying itself years of revenue due to the desire to have it also address the adult games problem. I am not qualified to give legal advice as to how else to address that problem (but an rpol legal fund is a good place to start, I think), but I would rather see my donations go to hire some interns to help manage and police adult gaming violations than to be used to pay to have my PII stored here and elsewhere.

Wow! Lots of discussion (as always with this issue) and lots of passion. Now that we've had so much airing of opinions/venting, I have two alternatives to suggest.

Alternative One: Go ahead and implement subscriptions right away -- by the end of the year, let's say -- and see how much doom occurs.

Alternative Two: Get rid of Adult content in a similar time frame.

Vote for one.

[To mods: These suggestions are tongue-in-cheek and don't require serious response.]

Having worked for an MMO which required a reasonable amount of information in order to register an account, and then been involved in verifying ownership of those accounts, the alternative strategy I would be comfortable with, apart from the subscription method, is to remove adult access from all players, until they can satisfactorily prove that they're:
a) in a jurisdiction which allows access to adult material
b) of appropriate age in that jurisdiction to access adult material

To begin with, I think either a passport or driver's license + statutory declaration signed in front of a JP would be a good start.

I can't imagine the approval process would be overly fast though, as examining ID scans for alteration/faking is time consuming and frankly, annoying.  So I don't think we'd get through many in a week, seeing as we're all unpaid and already donating what extra time we have to the site.  So it would have to be done around our existing workload.  Which, admittedly, would be much reduced by the lack of need to slap people round the head for adult area violations, so there is that.

But it wouldn't require money spent by the players.

I'm saying this, not as a random "I have read this on the internet and ...." but as someone who has dealt with stolen and faked IDs, stolen and scammed credit cards, and liaising with police in multiple jurisdictions about credit card fraud.

And that's before we even get into the whole "financial pain as behaviour modification tool" method of ensuring people follow the rules, which in my personal (as opposed to "site official" opinion) is sorely needed.

Any time people would like to pay the admin and moderators for the work they do already to manage and police adult gaming violations, please flag your donation to RPOL with a note to the effect that you're contributing a salary payment.  :)

In reply to Vej Farende (msg # 157):

So... if we want to do proper age checks, we need to have all manner of extra security on the site.  And a team of lawyers/legal experts, just in case.  And a dedicated security team.  Which will all, no doubt, cost the site money, because I'm sure these people wouldn't work for free, the way the mods do now.

Anyway... all of these things for a feature added specifically because of Adult games on site.

Sounds like a very good reason to ask Adult gamers to start paying a subscription.

On the other hand, we could just ban Adult content altogether, and save the hassle.  *shrugs*

Question that one of the mods may be able to answer.

How many of the 8,627 games listed on the site are rated adult?

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 161):

If the purpose of age verification is to cover the site's butt for legal reasons, you would need to store our information so that you can send something to the court when those records are subpoenaed. And so if you plan on storing that information, there is no way I am going to give it to you unless there is a demonstration of a satisfactory level of security for those records. The site doesn't even use https. So when you think that this is the best option to deal with this serious but "unaddressed for 10 years" problem, and then make light of my concerns, that doesn't really help my level of confidence. My point is exactly that the necessary security and infrastructure to facilitate this is very expensive and work intensive, and would change the nature of the site.

I fully support subscriptions, but without being tied to adult games, it seems like it would be much easier to implement, but more importantly, much cheaper.

I was not making light of your concerns at all.

In fact I thought your post demonstrated exactly why Adult gamers need to think twice when they say that they shouldn't be paying for a compulsory subscription when nobody else has to.  Collecting age statements, and keeping the information securely, will (as you have shown) cost us money.  It seems only fair that the people responsible for creating that cost should be expected to pay something towards defraying it.

Also, this has not been "unaddressed for 10 years".  There has been a lot of discussion regarding the matter, and investigation into the best method of implementing subscriptions, and the legal ramifications of doing so.

As you can see from this thread, whenever it is brought up again, there is a lot of debate on the topic.  The main reason it has not been implemented yet - we want to get it right, and minimise its impact on the majority of site users.

Ok, thank you for the response. I'll wait to see what the eventual policy is going to be, but I hope it is worth the risk the site will be taking. As someone who works with sensitive information, internet security is largely an illusion, no matter how much money you throw at it. When I say "necessary security measures", what that really means is the base level of security so that you don't get sued for negligence, not so that you can actually guarantee the safety of our records. The only way to be 100% safe is to never store such records at all.

As a parent of five kids (teenagers down to a six year old), blaming you or any other site for my lack of parental oversite of my children's internet access is just poor parenting.  It literally, is not your job, it's mine as a parent.  If I can't be bothered to watch what my children access, why should I expect you to?  Have I caught my older two on sites they knew they shouldn't be on?  Yep, just as I'm certain I haven't caught them at others.  Just my 2 cents as a parent.

Now it was mentioned that RPOL was trying to cover bases to permit access to other countries as well.  This opens up a whole new level of difficulty in everything.  You end up in situations where you either have to SEVERELY cut back on just about every game (look into how restrictive internet site access is in Turkey or Saudi) or situations where to make everything legal in one you actually make the process of verification illegal in another.  Base it off your home country, the US, UK, and Canada.  The majority of RP's are from there.  Whenever conflicts arise, base it off where you are from.

Look at the statistics for the games.  How many games of each category are being run?  What is the average length of each game and number of players in each one?  Find out where the site's focus lies.  And you have to be thorough, just looking at the number of games throws the numbers off.  You might find that there are more regular games, but more active players in Adult.

I said it once before, but it seemed to get lost in all the other posts, perhaps the solution lies in just not one answer.  Maybe combining some of the solutions into one overall answer is the best option.

1. Have a temporary period to let new people into the system to see it.  Bait the hook so to speak.  For this, use the current system.
   
2. The subscription solution.  Have bells and whistles.  Make it worth the while.
   
3. Another verification method.  Scanned licences (just mark out your address).
   
4. Provision through third party identification.

Now the last two solutions will either be free to the people on the board or something they already pay for.  I know there are third party source verification, but I don't know more than that.  The issue with these is that it will need mod involvement to verify.  Make it part of the reason to go with subscription.  You can't complain if you have to wait and you're getting it for free.

I think that in assessing risk, however, the mods are saying they have to look at the risk of someone who takes a very different approach from you -- because there can be cost incurred in responding to complaints (especially legal complaints) even if the complaints have no merit.  My firm bills me out at $625/hour, regardless of whether the complaint brought against our client is meritorious or not.  I couldn't afford to hire myself if I need representation.

For example ...  the Jack Thompson-led litigation over Grand Theft Auto.

That has to be part of the assessment, even if jase and the mods weren't also motivated by



<insert token acnkowledge of risks -- discussed far more ably by others already -- that come with collecting PII and all the various legal requirements on a jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction basis that must also be weighed>

Ah yes I worked for Walmart so I know what you mean Bevin.

It is why so many companies settle complains out of court, even if the Customer is clearly lying. I remember getting wrote up over a guy getting slightly BUMBPED in his leg by a cart HE caused to move. they paid for the doctors visit even though he was a known con man.

btw anyone could tell you it was his own fault the buggy bumped him. the incident happened a grand total of 2 times the 3.5 years I worked there, one of which was triggered by the con man.

So glad I do not own a business. It seems the world hates businesses... especially governments that make it so easy to hurt them...

So good Luck rpol...

How many users habitually visit RPOL?

Are procedures in place to pass the torch on to other volunteers? Are the procedures apt to work?

What is the approximate FTE for keeping the site functional? Suppose Adult games were banned. How would this affect the FTE? Number of users? Costs?

I don't participate in Adult games, so I have little idea of their nature. I do wonder if RPOL has a mission statement, long-range goals, and how adult games fits into either (if they exist).

In reply to OceanLake (msg # 169):

From the FAQS:

There are 86,854 registered users.

2,950 users have logged in in the past 7 days.
4,077 users have logged in in the past 28 days.
5,358 users have logged in in the past two months.
166 users have joined in the past 7 days.

There is a contingency plan in place, should anything happen to jase (the rest of us are, apparently, expendable).

Adult games represent about a quarter of the games on the site.  Since we have not planned to ban them, we have not considered what would happen if we did.

RPoL has no mission statement, as far as I know.  Its goal is the same as always - continue and expand.

Thanks. I'm going to assume two full-time workers at 45K each. With other expenses, I'll guess a budget of 150K Assuming 3,000 subscribers, that's $50 per year. I can get 2 Big Macs for $5, so that's 20 Big Macs.

If I assume 500 Adult games who have to subscribe, That's $300.

It's fun in a way to play with numbers like that, but darned if I'd know what to do. I do know I like RPOL and that it takes money to keep it going. I contributions aren't enough, money will have to be raised another say (duh). So I hope people will pony up according to income, reallocating money from less lasting pleasures.

If I might make a suggestion, and I apologize if this has been said already but I haven't read everything in this thread:

It might make sense to allow players already in adult games to be grandfathered in to the games they are in when you go to the subscription service.  So if you are in an adult game already you can continue to play it.  But you can't join new adult games without the subscription.

I realize this doesn't solve all your age verification issues in the short term, but eventually it should get the vast majority of them.  On the other hand, it won't kill ongoing adult games by forcing a good percentage of players out.

I run an adult game with about a dozen players.  If I lost half of them tomorrow because they are unwilling to subscribe my game would suffer greatly.  Maybe die.  It would be best to avoid that situation.

In the long term, though, I would suspect you'll get most of the adult players who are going to subscribe to do so because they will be locked out of joining any additional or new adult games.
This message was last edited by the user at 01:24, Sat 02 Aug 2014.

Yeled, I have the same concern as a player.  There's an excellent game that's been going on for seven years rated Adult for violence, language, and only occasionally sex, and I'm concerned what will happen.  I haven't pointed out this thread to the GM, but he's been around long enough to know that this policy is going to go into effect at some point down the road.

I think the issue here is paying + adult content.  If the site remained free, perhaps the controls wouldn't have to be as strict, but once subscriptions are instituted, the site will have users paying to access something that includes adult materials.  I welcome subscriptions as a way for jase to receive something monetary in return for all the work he's out into this site over the years, but once a company starts selling something that includes adult materials in any form, the rules get much stricter.  It makes sense to ask the people who want adult games to be asked to contribute financially in this case.

In reply to OceanLake (msg # 169):

I was under the impression that the site has zero FTE. All work is done by volunteers.

Pretty much, yeah...

In reply to Jarodemo (msg # 174):

You are correct, sir.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 176):

Thank you ma'am.

My two cents on this subject (not that it really matters):

1: asking us to pay for any service on RPOL is.... Logical. Te amount of work that has been done on this sight for free is staggering. IO anyone that does not respect that shouldn't be here. I admire offering free to play services (aka mature and regular games). Adult content is handled very well here, I think, and paying for the service makes sense from a liability and effort stance. I am for paying for the service and would do so now. Much in the same way I pay for music service on free sights to avoid commercials, etc.

2: Running this website is intensive, as you can see from how fast the Mods get back to you and respond in forums. I can't imagine the amount of effort put into data management and design. Kudos to you all. So again, paying a dollar or two a month would make sense. If only 1000 members payed for Adult content here, that would be substantial in funding the site, adding capitol for web design and implementation, plus it would solve many other issues. Again, I'm for subscription and would be happy to be the first in a Beta/Trial context.

3: Allowing members to pay for advanced "content control," might add support for the concept. Maybe, user managed Avatar storage, special ranks etc. People generally buy into that sort of thing.

Good luck RPOL team! I hope the future of this site continues to receive the support of its members.

rob

In reply to Sithraider (msg # 178):

If it's a dollar or two a month, that wouldn't be bad.  But I haven't seen anything that said that's how much it would be.

they haven't said how much it would be, at all.  Which is why saying you can't afford it doesn't make a lot of sense yet.  I think the only price mentioned so far was the post about a possible 1 time payment of something like 20 dollars to let all current players buy for life.  But I'm not sure how concrete that figure was.

Because I'm a single disabled veteran with five kids.  Affording anything is a stretch.  Saying that I MIGHT be able to afford a dollar or two a month should give you an idea of my finances.

But that hasn't been my only issue.  I've brought up the issue of new people coming in.

wasn't only addressing you.  Many people's gut reaction to subscription was I can't afford it, but the proposal wasn't even to the pricing stage yet.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 182):

Ok, but realize that people might be saying they can't afford it regardless of price.  For people with fixed incomes or on the lower end of the income brackets, for site access to cost anything is too expensive.  Remember not all of us have disposable income, some of us have to make some hard choices constantly about what what we do with our limited money.  I'm just one of them and I'm not shy about it.

It's not even for all games, just adult games. The site will remain free for Mature and Unrated games. The point of getting subscription is for access to Adult games and added perks that they have yet to mention. This isn't anything new. The post for subscriptions has been up for near ten years.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 182):

I'm much like pfarland. Paying for all my monthly medications is iffy. The reason I came here many years ago was for the free gaming. I've come to really love the site and would pay if that was possible but that would require a rich unknown relative to die or I don't take my meds. I don't see either happening. So even if it's pocket change to you, I'm unlikely to have it. So I really don't need to hear the actual number to know I'm not going to have it.

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 185):

In which case you simply don't pay, and carry on playing the free games.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 186):

Unless they're currently running or are participating in games flagged as adult for whatever reason. In which case, back to square one again. Honestly, after all of this I feel like we've just gone in circles about the issue. At this point we're best off just waiting to hear more.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 186):

I wasn't complaining about the cost, just explaining why some of us don't need to hear the price to know it's too much for us to pay. gladiusdei seemed to think we where jumping the gun and that wasn't the case.

That's not to say I'd be happy to lose adult access when/if subscriptions come around, just that I wasn't complaining about it in that post. ;)

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 187):

What?  Over TEN YEARS (and counting) warning that this was coming isn't enough time for people to get their act together?  Maybe work out what they'll do when it gets here?  Maybe think twice about starting another Adult game that they wouldn't be able to afford to play if jase announces that subscriptions start next month?

And yes, waiting to hear more is the best idea, rather than panicking over something that might turn out to cost about $20 a year.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 189):

*shrug* There's plenty of reasons why that might be the case. The 10 years thing even being one of them. Maybe they're thinking it will be a long time before it gets implemented or perhaps they aren't someone who bothers with the community forums and is blissfully unaware. You never know.

That really isn't entirely fair. Not everyone on the site has been here for 10 years, and certainly not everybody has been part of this specific discussion for that long, or even for as long as they've been here. The conversation might be ongoing, but it's no more fair to blame folks for "not getting their act together" or not having a plan than it is to blame the administrative staff for not having a plan that 100% satisfies everyone.

It may not be realistic or possible to come up with something, going forward, that both satisfies the needs of the site and works out optimally for all users, but belittling and blaming those who voice complaints or reservations serves no one, even if the mods are legitimately weary from hearing the same things over and over. The fact that those comments get repeated ought to be indicative that not everyone involved has got the full picture, especially considering how much more information and experience the site staff has got with the issue, compared to the average user.

I generally rate my games adult to give my players the most freedom possible in their writing and subject matter; naturally, I'm interested in how this plays out and I'm wracking my brain trying to play 10 years of catch-up and come up with a worthwhile suggestion that might actually help and that hasn't already been considered and shot down for various good reasons. I wish I had a better plan I could just fling out on the table and fix it all. But I didn't even know that this was a major, long-term issue until recently, and now I'm finding out that it's a complex and formidable one, at that—one that still hasn't been totally solved after a decade of intense thinking and consideration.

That proves to me that the staff is doing their best to come up with the least injurious and most productive answer they can; but, it also demonstrates that a lot of ideas have come and gone, and a lot of debate has happened. Being concerned about what happens next for those who already participate in adult games, for whatever reason, and who maybe can't afford to pay or who have some other worry in the face of this all, doesn't make it a user's fault.

So, I have to ask. Has Patreon been looked at as an option?

Just an idle question. If it was mentioned and I missed it, feel free to forget I asked. I won't be offended. ^^;

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 189):

I'm glad at least one of us seems to have enough money to think $20 is nothing to worry about...

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 193):

That must be you then, because it certainly isn't me.

In reply to Sylverthorne (msg # 192):

Just taking a brief look into this Patreon thing and it looks interesting! Seems like this might work in generating a revenue for the games on this site. The look of it people donate an amount of money to the work of art (The game in this case) and get some kind of perk. This is much like the subscription option but seems like a much better and kinder way to make loads of cash from the individual games here. People would carry there weight here by doing what they love and that is gaming. Perhaps it could work. Find people to donate to said game to keep it alive and generate revenue. This idea seems sound. Perhaps I'm looking at this differently though!
This message was last edited by the user at 06:26, Mon 04 Aug 2014.

If that's true, then it seems justified to worry "over something that might turn out to cost about $20 a year". If I don't have it now, I most likely not going to have it then. Seems perfectly reasonable.

In reply to Sylverthorne (msg # 192):

It looks interesting, if for some of my side projects if nothing else. I wonder how the transition from individual donations per game would translate to the whole though. Would donations then be based on a player's enjoyment of a DM's game? New threads / games? There's a lot of questions but, as far as I know, it's a new option to explore a bit further.

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 196):

I really find it hard to believe that anybody can't afford $20 a year, less than $2 per month, and yet still have access to the internet, game books, etc...

I kind of wonder about all solutions being looked at.  I've mentioned a few different ideas, some which were commented on by other users, but nothing that was directly addressed by a mod and told "We looked at this and found that it wouldn't work because of X".

And yeah, some of us haven't been here 10 years.  I haven't been here a whole month yet.  I'm in the process of joining a game (an Adult rated Hunter game).  It will be the only adult game I join now.  And I was planning on starting my own game which I've put on hold.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 198):

Believe it.  Some of us have game books that are borrowed or from back when we had money and I'm sure some have downloaded copies also.  Some of us have internet provided because of where we live, or because there are programs designed to provide free internet access to disabled vets.  Some might have internet access provided by kind neighbors.  I'm sorry you have trouble believing it, but there are poor people that can get on the net.

Patreon sounds a lot like the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread, where people pay a fee based on the number of games they're in.  I don't see that being popular with the people who only ever play Adult games, and are in 30 (or more) of them.

Probably even less popular with GMs who find players cutting out their games to try and get their payments down, while still playing in GM Bob's game.

Then there are issues like GMs who cancel their game the day after you pay to join it.  Would you be entitled to a refund?  From whom?  Why, for example, would RPoL need to give you a refund because of an unreliable GM (who is not an RPoL employee)?

Oh yeah... and what about those games that takes a month long break.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 200):

I wouldn't say a per game fee, more of a tiered system.  Everyone get's one or two free.  It would entice more people into them.  Games 3-5 cost X; games 6-10 cost XX, etc.  But you do top it out at a certain point.  Once someone is playing 15+ games (just a number off the top of my head), they don't pay anymore.  And no, you don't offer refunds.  You're paying for the access TO games, not for the game itself.

It would provide added incentive for GMs to keep up with their games, because otherwise ones that take month long breaks or post every 2 weeks will end up getting dropped in favor of faster paced games.  Another incentive will be games that are more involved AND mature.

And if a player bails on your game but stays in Bob's because he can't afford both?  How is that different that a player that bails because he can't afford adult access period?  And anyone that pays for an upgrade just for one game should take that into consideration that the game might not last.  We've all been in this long enough on this site or others and it's extremely apparent that it happens.

In reply to pfarland (msg # 202):

I actually think that idea might be onto something. There's already a system in place that tracks how many games you're allowed to run based on the time you've spent using the site. Why not have a system where everyone has access based on different levels of fees, so that users have options? People are more enthusiastic when they've got choices, because then they've got a level of control over their own situation and their participation in the site.

Some users will take advantage of the free games, while others will pay a little extra to open up more of jase's generous perks and a few more adult game slots. Still others will consider it to be less of a hassle to just pay the maximum amount for the broadest range of access and call it a day; less bookkeeping. If someone is only allowed, say, participation in up to 5 adult-rated games simultaneously, and chooses not to use them all, then it isn't the site's fault they aren't making the most of their money. Plus, there will be some who don't play adult games, at all, who would still gladly pay in order to get the perks jase is offering. That way, the subscription is offering options and targeting everyone by saying "here are some extras, come get them if you want them, very reasonable prices all round," rather than explicitly targeting adult players only.

I don't personally feel targeted or alienated by the idea that the adult section of the site causes the most work for the mods, or that that tier of access might be asked to pay extra because it comprises the smaller percentage, etc., but it's important to acknowledge some users do feel that way. It's basic marketing: A strategy which entices everyone to participate without making a specific demographic feel singled out will draw in more money from those users who otherwise might not be/feel obligated to pay anything because they don't use certain services. It's got the same effect, but it sends a different message from "the adult users are troublemakers, so they need to do the most in holding the site up." Even if that bit is true, it obviously doesn't taste good to everyone who falls under that umbrella. This way, GM responsibility might be encouraged, as suggested above, players might be more mature because you always value something more when you pay for it, etc., but those more casual users (or even dedicated users with just one game) wouldn't feel "penalized" or similar.

Of course, if the primary and core issue remains gatekeeping, in terms of locking minors out of adult games, then I suppose giving everybody one game for free doesn't solve that, which leads right back to the question of a verification system.

EDIT: I'm sure this is all stuff that's already been bandied about by the mods in previous discussions, in some form or other. :( But it's still not a bad concept, in theory.
This message was last edited by the user at 07:46, Mon 04 Aug 2014.

In reply to Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 203):

Thank you.  And yes, you may have to eat the cost of some verification and make it back on others.  You just make sure it balances out.  I'm not opposed to the site even making money.  I just see the potential loss of new blood along with the loss of current players (albeit probably a small number of us) with a single flat rate to pay even if you just want to test the waters.

I've looked at a few games, applied to two, and been accepted into one.  The two I applied to were both adult.  Before I found out about the possibility of paying to play.  If I had found this site and found that I needed to pay for access to adult games, I literally wouldn't be here.  I would have lurked maybe another week or two (I had lurked for about a week before I found one interesting game).  After a short while longer I would have left.  There are a LOT of other PbP sites out there.

You will get some new blood from people that sign up for a regular or mature game and find that player X who they like has an opening in his or her adult game, but that will be few and far between.  Players will be lost as people drift away from the site.  You're likely to encounter an ever decreasing number of adult players.  That is what I'm trying to avoid by promoting the one or two free adult games.  Plus not eliminating people like myself that will almost certainly not be able to afford paying for access.

In reply to Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 203):

The tiered option, as we've talked about in a few different incarnations, is till my personal favorite fix to the subscription issue. There are a couple things that I think would help to make Adult game players feel less alienated while also allowing new players to still get into the action at the level they want.



Granted, I realize this was from a post from 2005, but why not think of going back to something like this, leaving Adult games to have their sexy-time and making sure that Mature players can still swear like sailors and have their bit of fighting along side it? (Thanks Vej Farende for digging up the quote!) My thought goes something like this:

1. Revert Mature games into being more like adult games sans sex-based content.
2. Introduce tiered subscriptions like Morgan and others have suggested that might look something like this:

Tier 1: $2 Donation - Access to 1 Adult game + 2 hosted portrait slots
Tier 2: $5 Donation - Access to 2 Adult game + 2 hosted portrait slots + Shiny something or other
Tier 3: $10 Donation - Access to 4 Adult game + 5 hosted portrait slots + Shiny something or other
etc.

You can see where I'm going with that. (Figured I'd put a visual representation out there for you more visual learner types like myself)

That way, as Morgan also mentioned, you get the verification for adult games while not making them feel like they're having to pay as a punishment or other form of repercussion from the age verification issue.

If by "hosted portrait slots" you mean players being able to upload portraits themselves, I don't see that happening.

First of all, since portraits appear in a public area of the game (the character description), they would still be subject to the "no adult content in public areas" restriction, and so would be subject to moderator scrutiny and approval.  So why not just use the current galleries?

Before anybody says that people would never upload inappropriate content, ask the portrait editor how often she's had to reject adult images submitted as portraits.

Second - the people who provide the portrait servers, free to RPoL (though not to them) do so on the understanding that uploading to their web space is done by a limited number of people (I believe it's just jase and the portrait editor).

I think the cries of 'we'll lose potential players' would garner more attention if they hadn't already been used on several other occasions...

When they banned political/religious discussion in the public threads, there were swarms of people who swore that RPOL would lose users by the droves, and the new policies would be considered so restrictive that fewer and fewer people would sign up.  Now, I don't know the specifics, but my general impression is that RPOL pretty much continued to run without any significant hitches...new players continued to join, in spite of the restrictions, some of the doomsayers left, others just stopped posting in the public threads...

But, honestly, I don't think that the number of people joining RPOL will be THAT significantly altered if they have to buy a subscription to play Adult games.  Yes, there will be some people who will look at that and say, "What?!!  I have to pay to do that?  Fruit-pie that shnitzel!"  There will be other people that will say, "Oh, hey, look...there's a subscription option for all the extra features, but you can still do the basic playing on here for free..."  (Might even be some people who say, "Cool...I'm not going to subscribe to anything here, which means nothing from this site is going to accidentally turn up and freak my kid out when he's playing on my computer.")

And, in the end, this IS jase's site, which he's been good enough to throw open to the rest of us as long as we play nice.  He does the upkeep out of the goodness of his heart, on his own time, without any paycheck from it.  The rest of the moderators volunteer their time and efforts to keep things running smoothly and provide us with wonderful things like a portrait gallery for our characters.  I'm pretty impressed with the work they've all done and continue to do, and I've got faith that they'll come up with a system that will provide the maximum effectiveness for the minimum amount of fuss.  They've done a pretty awesome job of it so far...I'm not going to start second-guessing them now.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 206):

The portrait thing was just an example as it's something that's been mentioned a few times before. Hence why the second perk was something silly like "shiny thing." But picking apart the most minor of my post aside, how does the rest of the suggestion sound? I've suggested a few things now and I haven't gotten any mod feedback on any parts of it other than small generally meaningless tidbits like that on all but one or two occasions.

In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 207):

I see where you're coming from on the loss of player aspect, but limiting community forums, which in no way impact game threads, and this are two different monsters. I, too, don't believe it will severely cramp the new people joining as long as general and mature remain free, but it will certainly effect the player base in adult games and the content being squeezed through in mature games to avoid the fee.

It seems reasonable to me.  But acceptance depends on a mod consensus, which can still be vetoed by jase, as the site's owner, and the guy who has to code it all.

Question: How much would it be worth to an Adult GM to never again have a player removed from his game by the mods, just because he forgot to get an age statement that fitted the site's requirements?

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 210):

Admittedly, this only happened to me once and the player resubmitted the same day and the game went on. I'm sure there are horror stories, but personally, I can't relate. I feel like the majority of the inconvenience lies with the admin's time invested in remedying the problem, something equally, if not more, important.

Judging by the amount of complaints we get about how the temporary removal of a single player totally destroyed the game, and grumbling about how we should be doing age checks, not GMs, it just seems like it would be a major perk

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 212):

In that light, I would agree that yes, it would be. Believe me when I say I'm not rallying against more comprehensive age verification-- quite the opposite. I'm just hoping that when all is said and done, it's via a way that we can all be happy about (or at least indifferent towards).

*grin*  I think that would be a first in human history (a solution that everybody was happy with...)

In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 214):

Indeed, hence my caveat. But wouldn't it be? I can't imagine what it would have to be to make each and every person happy with it. Perhaps the april fools theme all year round :P (please dear god no)

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 212):

That's their own fault. If you can't follow basic instructions I am probably not going to let you join my game anyway. Of course, I've also never violated or have had a player violate the adult game rules before, so perhaps I can't relate?

Sadly there are a lot of GMs who feel it is the site's fault (or the mods') that they can't follow the posted rules.

Why implement features that cater to them, then?

That's just my way of saying, no, it doesn't contribute much value for me to not require age statements in every new game. It's like Van Halen putting specific colors of m&m's in their riders. Filters out players/venue staff that are dangerous.

We're adding features which cater to everybody.  Adult access will not be the only benefit of a subscription, and the income will contribute to future development of the site (some of which will only be available to subscribers).

Since subscriptions will be used to develop and maintain RPoL, the only people who don't benefit from subscribing are the ones who want to see the site stagnate and/or fail.

There's the library, living with friends *which I do and I watch their kid for room and board but don't have ANY income of my own coming in because I can't work and they won't give me dissability because my doctors won't look into the problems I tell them I have which prevent me from working.* And even living with family. While you are living with someone, they are not obligated to pay for your bills, including things like this for enjoyment but they might still have the internet in their home. So yes, it is possible for someone to not be able to afford such a thing.

You mean the free access I get from fastfood places or bumming off my friends? The 'gamebooks' I read online at places like d20pfsrd. I'm lucky if I'm not in the negatives each month using everything free. You and gladiusdei seem to think it's a given that people have disposable income. I'm here it tell you that's not true.

It's much like people assuming everyone can get cell or highspeed internet where you live. But it seems that you where incorrect bigbadron. You're saying you CAN afford $20 a year, and EVERYONE should be able too, and they shouldn't have to worry about it. That doesn't mesh with "because it certainly isn't me." :P

And I should say, this isn't a debate (for me) on the subscription per se. It's a debate over '$20 is no big deal and there isn't anyone that should have a problem spending that much'. That's a lie, a big fat one. It's really condescending for anyone to think they know more about my finances than I do.

ok, since this keeps coming up.  1 or 2 dollars a month is not disposable income, nor is a 1 time payment of 20 dollars.  I am truly sorry that you may not be able to afford it, but that is a very small price to ask.  If the site has to be paid for, then it is more than reasonable to ask such a small price from those using the service.  If you can't afford that, it is a very rare and very serious situation you are in.  But please stop acting like we are discriminating against you for asking such a price.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:16, Mon 04 Aug 2014.

Dark times I care not to think about friend. I have been there, even with an income. That being said, privileges are for the privileged. I know it sounds like I am being a jerk, but it's the simple truth.

Yes, no, and maybe.

Since this (gaming) is a luxury anything spent on it would come out of a person's disposable income.  And it is more than just one person that can't afford it there are at least three of us so far that have stated as much.  I can guarantee there are more.  Is it a reasonable price?  Yes.  I'm sure if we all HAD the money, we would be perfectly happy to spend it on the site.  It is NOT a "very rare and very serious situation you are in." obviously since there are THREE of us in similar situations posting about it!  Considering the number of people discussing the topic you might REALLY think about what you call rare and what you don't.  Serious?  That I agree with.  And I don't think any one of us feel discriminated against because of the price, we just feel marginalized and ignored because of comments like:




Comments like these only serve to toss salt in the wounds of being poor.  At least being acknowledged and thought of instead of tossed away as "they can't pay, so they aren't worth it."

Sorry.  I got it wrong, yes.


That's weird, because that bit was true.  I really am that short of money, but still reckon I could scrape together $20 a year.


Yes, I too find it condescending.  So please don't assume you know anything about my financial situation and I won't comment on yours.

If you can't afford the subscription, don't pay it.  Yes, you lose Adult access, but a large proportion of the site will still be free.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:44, Mon 04 Aug 2014.

Hmmm, I am going to stop myself from part of this.

@ farland
More importantly, I suppose you think all sites on the internet should be free and asking for money is discrimination? I fail to see how being realistic is rubbing salt on wounds of my own past.

Either way, I am going to go back to ignoring this thread now.

no one said that you don't count.  And your comments imply that we are looking down on people who are not wealthy.  I am on medicare and social service because I can not be a student and work enough to keep a roof over the head of my wife and son.  I have next to no money either.  But I can afford to take a dollar or two away from something else I currently pay for to put it into a subscription for a site I use quite often.  compared to other expenses a price like that is literally about as good as it's going to get.

And yes, it IS rare to not be able to afford a few dollars a month.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I'm not saying you are somehow worse if it does.  But in a discussion about subscriptions, that is a very fair and reasonable price to expect.  Saying a situation that can not permit you 1 dollar to spare a month is serious is not a way of dismissing it.  It's very serious, and I hope that it is something that can be rectified.

@ bigbadron msg # 225

Thank you.

@ Merevel msg # 226

You suppose wrong.  I've stated before, that I don't have an issue with it.  I have an issue with people ASSUMING that because they can afford something and that because it is cheap, that everyone else must be able to afford it.  And nasty comments such as "privileges are for the privileged"

@ gladiusdei msg # 227

The "privileges are for the privileged" kind of implied that, but my issue was with the attitude that "everyone can afford the price because I can and it's a low price".  I DO believe it's quite reasonable, and you are right, probably as good as it's going to get.  Rare, to a point yes, but not as rare as one might think.  Especially since we've already found a few of them here with a limited discussion group.

I still think access should be allowed for a single game, just to entice people into it.  Even if it's only for a trial period.

Yep, already said that before. ALso, it wasn't a comment on the subscription or how reasonable the price may be. My entire point started with the assumption some had that there was NOONE that couldn't afford $20.

Agreed. Same here.

Again, this pretty much is what I think too.

So I feel like we've completely gone off the rails for what this forum post was supposed to be about. Believe me when I say that I sympathize with those of you who are unable to make a subscription payment, whatever the price. There are innumerable reasons why you might not be able to and I agree that it most definitely sucks.

But instead of going back and forth about why or why not someone can or can't afford it, why don't we try to come up with ways that help to make every feel like they're not being left out? Instead, let's come up with some ideas that you feel are fair and we can discuss that rather than what is just going to be a merry-go-round of hurt feelings and stepped on pride for everyone involved.

Something I'd definitely like to see, if it could be reasonably implemented while still serving the needs of the site, would be the ability of users to cover or "gift" subscriptions, at some level, to other users.

It's definitely the case that some people might not be able to afford even a low fee, and that seems to be a recurring point of concern. While this might not be a practical solution for everybody, I would rest easier knowing that I could pay for some of my players who perhaps aren't in a position to do so for themselves, thus ensuring they can continue in their games (specifically mine, I freely admit).

Not every community within the site necessarily has that dynamic in operation, but I think some might be surprised at the willingness of users who can afford it to pony up for friends who can't, and that might ease a few troubled hearts.

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 230):

I posted because even a moderator didn't seem to think people like us are on the site. It's not to say 'poor me' or trying to avoid the subscription. I'd just like to know that they'll at least factor us in when they make the final decision. They should know some just aren't going to subscribe, even though they might have otherwise done so if they actually did have the money. I don't know how many are like me, but I have to figure that some are here for the 'free' part because that's how much they can pay.

So I don't see this as "completely gone off the rails". Knowing people aren't going to subscribe seem right on point for a thread on subscriptions.

Morgan Coldsoul: That would be awesome but I don't know how that'd work with something like a creditcard age check. Part of the point is to make sure adults sections only have adults in them.

If gifting for GMs to continue running adult games were implemented, I'd see no problem with subscriptions.

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 232):

No, you're right; that's why I said "at some level." It might not work to universally satisfy the gatekeeping practices for age requirements, but it could at least allow some users to enjoy subscription perks who otherwise might not be able to, even if those don't include adult access.

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 232):

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree with the need to make the fact known, I was just worried that the back and forth about "yes you can", "no I can't" would derail the thread from constructive to...well you've probably seen where threads like that can lead. I was merely stating that as part of your concern with not being able to afford a sub, suggest what you might think to be a reasonable solution that would allow you to participate equally.

Morgan's suggestion, for example, is something I know I've personally vetted for in the past for my players who might not be able to afford it, and would give you a chance to participate in subscription-only games even if your budget doesn't allow you to contribute yourself. Just something like that :)

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 233):

With gifting and the 'lifetime' adult access for payment at startup and I might be able to swing it. I'd be uncomfortable with having someone pay for a continuing thing, a one time thing is easier to do.

Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 234):

Yeah, if it could work, I think they'd find a significant bump in subscriptions. But I think it'd have to work for adult access somehow, unless the perks are truly awesome.

Visceri22 (msg # 235):

That's cool. I seem to have gotten the point across so I most likely don't have to continue it.

In reply to Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 231):

Part of the point of subscriptions is to prevent minors from accessing the Adult section of the site. The ability of "gift" subscriptions would undermind the whole point of that for the simple fact that you could give a minor access to the Adult section of the site.

elecgraystone and I seem to be on the same page.

I have suggested a few other options and it always seems to steer right back to "It's only going to be a little money, no big deal." line of thought by a majority.  Some of the things I've mentioned weren't even looked at.  At least no one said that "X won't work because of Y".

@ universeman

A credit card or paypal account is about as certain as how things operate now.  You have people that are adults that don't have them and minors that do.  If the fee is for a third party service that does the determination, then someone paying for you would work.

In reply to universeman (msg # 237):

In which case you, as the cardholder, have either knowingly committed fraud, making it your responsibility once it's discovered (at which point you can be banned from the site, as for any other form of fraud or adult ToS violation), or have accidentally (and foolishly) made yourself an accessory to fraud. Either way, that is your own problem, not RPoL's.

Using credit cards to gate for age isn't foolproof, anyway. The easiest way to punch a hole in that has already been mentioned: I can loan anyone my card, if I trust them or am foolish enough, and allow them to use it to make the subscription purchase. There's no difference between that particular vulnerability and someone picking up a prepaid card, etc., in terms of the sheer effectiveness of the process RPoL is trying to institute...except that users who buy "gift subscriptions" are actually more responsible for any violations than the site is, which might actually help to further protect the site, in a small way. People tend to be careful with their financial information.

Now, I'm no finance law or legalese expert; I could totally be wrong about the liability part of it, and if someone knows better, please do correct me. But common sense (often not synonymous with law, I admit) seems to dictate that an adult buying a minor an adult access subscription would constitute a crime on the part of the buyer, not on the part of the site and its staff.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:26, Mon 04 Aug 2014.

Plus that doesn't even get into prepaid cards that you can pick up in Walmart.

you guys are still arguing around the issue.  it isn't a question of effectiveness, it's a question of acceptability.  credit card checks are accepted as a way of verifying age.  So unless someone can find a more effective way of doing it that doesn't require even more work and money from jase and the others, then credit cards may ultimately have to be where the site goes.

I don't think there have been many ideas that have been dismissed.  This conversation has been going on for 10 years, so I think quite a few ideas have been put forward and checked by the site.  Just because they aren't responding doesn't mean they haven't looked into them.

I believe I endorsed the idea of credit cards in my suggestion, albeit with the acknowledgment that they are, as already discussed, not foolproof. That is the point: Allowing gift subscriptions would solve a handful of problems, make the idea more attractive, still utilize credit cards as a gatekeeping system, and make users who bought gift subscriptions more liable for any potential fraud than the site is. Once again, I could be mistaken on that last point, but I believe that's how it goes.

So, are credit cards perfect? No. But this might be a way they could be employed alongside standard or regular subscription options, as already put forth by the staff, to create more and possibly better options as part of the whole package.

I'm similar. Not quite uncomfortable with someone doing a continual gift. Depends on price and interval really. If a person could be paid up for a year, I'd be comfortable with that gift. If they decided on a one time charge, I'd be comfortable with that gift too. Others have mentioned credit cards/prepaid cards. Assuming debit cards amount to the same thing as a credit card, I'd not object to that either.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 243):

Hey, it could be a relatively inexpensive and very meaningful holiday or birthday gift, right? I get enough use out of RPoL that it's important to me, and it's possibly among the only fulfilling entertainment and interaction some people might have. A $20 or $30 per year subscription would be better than a lot of other gifts, and affordable, to boot. I think I could actually get kind of excited about the ability to genuinely do something meaningful for good RPoL friends who live far off, etc.

In reply to Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 239):

While legally speaking there really wouldn't be any type charges filed for fraud, it is the english definition of the word fraud. However, that is neither here nor there.

As far credit cards and use of paypal is concerned,  yes said minor could get access without actually owning one. Though this would generally come from a parent or guardian who would knowingly give them access to their card or paypal account. Now if they don't give them access, and the minor knowingly takes from said parent or guardian then it is up to the parent or guardian to punish them. Under those circumstances it is the parents or guardians responsibility to know what the minor is up to.

Once again they have talking about this for nearly ten years, and while nothing is full proof, I think they have a general understanding what they are doing. However, I believe that gifting a subscription would be a mistake considering that the gifting can either knowingly or unknowingly gift a minor a subscription thus undermining the whole point of subscriptions.

When ever thread concerning subscriptions is started they eventually devolve into this doom and gloom about some people can't pay for the subscription and thus won't have access to Adult games. They think it is just going to be a switch the Jase flips on and suddenly they won't have access to Adult games. In reality I'm pretty sure that Jase will give everyone fair warning and chance to either subscribe or remove all adult material from their so they can change it to mature or general.

It would be difficult for me to even swing a yearly, but on occasion, I might be able to handle it, so to me, that totally seems equitable, and meaningful.

While I am all for the idea of 'gifted' subscriptions, I certainly am against any that renew.  Even upon request.  Too many potential issues with that.

Also transferred liability is an iffy thing.  In many states if you know, or even suspect that a restricted product is to be sold or transferred to a minor, no liability is transferred.  Both the seller AND the middleman are both liable.  If a product is sold in good faith and then ends up in the hands of a minor, it is no longer the seller's fault.

What that means is if worst comes worst and the courts ever did get involved and some prosecutor has some stick up his or her butt about the internet they could come after RPOL.  Which, unless they are a registered corporation or non-profit puts jase and the moderators at risk.  All the prosecutor has to say is that mod so-and-so SHOULD have known that person X was a minor because of such-and-such statement and that mod so-and-so knowingly and intentionally facilitated the exposure of pornography to a minor (by allowing the gifted subscription).

Would they get out of it?  Probably with a halfway decent attorney, and one would probably do it pro-bono.  This would be a good name maker case.

And once again, I already agreed that I have confidence jase and company have the best interests of RPoL and its community in mind—but I think the rate of deliberately (and even accidentally) fraudulent gift subscriptions would be low to nonexistent, for a variety of reasons:

1. People are generally careful with their financial information and would be unlikely to trust people who have a high chance of creating a problem for them.
   
2. Users would be (or could be made) aware of the fact that doing so with deliberate intent is fraud, and a crime, and will result in them getting banned from the site, just like any other breach.
   
3. It still has the same overall level of security as doing exactly the same thing except not offering a gifting option, since the risks and loopholes are the same.

In other words, I highly doubt that there's any more risk of a minor winding up in an adult game via gift subscription than there is now, without it. In fact, despite the potential for completely hypothetical fraud, my guess is that—with the overall action of any sort of gatekeeping system, in general—minor access would actually decrease. They still have other games to play for free, and other sites where they can do adult RP for free with fewer or no restrictions. It seems like an awful lot of work to deliberately fake pay for something when you can get it for free elsewhere; I doubt most people would bother.

I'm 100% certain the staff will do their best, and is doing their best, to make this painless and effective. But maybe it bears some consideration that if it keeps coming up, maybe it's relevant. If it's an issue every single time, then it's pertinent to the discussion in some form—which I'm sure jase and company are taking into account. But brushing others' worries off because they aren't your worries is unfair and uncool.


In reply to pfarland (msg # 247):

We're in agreement on both that first and last bit! Some asinine attorney could push it, if they wanted, but I don't think it would stick. Much more importantly, I don't see how a gift subscription would create any more meaningful liability for the site than a regular subscription.

That's my point, I suppose: One could already fake their way around a regular subscription, if one cared enough to do so. That that same possibility exists in the same way for a hypothetical gift subscription doesn't seem to add any more wood to that particular fire. If it created more liability than a regular subscription, yes, it would be a bad idea, but I don't think it does. Again, though, I'm not a lawyer.

Undoubtedly there'd be some advance warning, but for not a small number of games this would mean that they'd essentially be completely shut down. There's a not-insignificant number of games where adult situations happening is kind of the point, and that'd pretty much kill them instantly, not to mention how some players would probably simply not be able or not want to pay.

I like RPoL. I love RPoL, which is why i've been on here for so many years. But if push comes to shove, people will go 'pay this sub/fee, or just go somewhere I can play free and do so with less restrictions?' and they'll walk. Now, there's always the chance i'm wrong and everything will be great, which would make me happy beyond belief. The biggest difficulty in getting people to play elsewhere i've encountered is the sheer convenience of RPoL - Not having to search through huge, unorganized forums for character sheets and such is wonderful. Having a scratchpad is wonderful. having language groups, a portrait gallery, and just the awesomely-done custom code that makes RPoL what it is - that's all awesome beyond belief.

I just don't think those things are wonderful enough to make people stay when they lose the kinds of games they like to play and then have to pay to get them back, and it doesn't matter if it happens tomorrow or ten more years from now - it's still gonna go the same way. Fair or not, people don't like having their stuff taken away, and people are in general not reasonable nor do they care that it's a service that's provided via someone elses time and loving hard work - all they care about is it was free, they had it, and now it's gone. Do not underestimate the apathy or even spitefulness of human begins. They will rarely let you down if you do.

Now, I also realize that the vast majority of RPoL's users don't care about losing Adult access. Most of you can't fathom ever needing adult access to run a game, and that's fine. I'd wager that a fair number will even be happy to see Adult games go. But it still sucks for the people who love those games, and love RPoL.

Ultimately the point I think that's being missed in the whole conversation is this: Plenty of sites don't charge a single red cent to post adult content. Yes, I know, you say 'then go to those sites you ungrateful jerk!'. Well, okay, I will when I have no choice, but RPoL is quite frankly more convenient. Putting adult content behind a paywall will beyond a doubt kill adult games completely, barring some miracle or a really, really amazing set of benefits for subscription. Everyone keeps saying 'they've had time to think about this, that won't happen', but realistically, how does anyone conceive of any other outcome?  I would love to know what people think is going to happen when/if the subs come in, and how it's likely to shake out.
This message had punctuation tweaked by the user at 00:21, Tue 05 Aug 2014.

I thnk you're missing the point raised earlier that when players in adult games create the most work and arguably risk, then it seems not unreasonable to push the cost of managing that back on those users especially when credit card verification can be used to offset the risk of having minors accessing adult content.

Yes it's horribly unfair etc etc but at the end of the day, someone is already meeting those costs. It just isn't the people creating the work.

I think that needs to be said. It might be "free" for some right now, but it certainly isn't free. Time and money is being spent by others and the assumption that they should continue to pay so others can have it free, is a little ... Blind.

In reply to eternaldarkness (msg # 249):

I agree with you completely on this, it may not happen fast but putting Adult behind a subscription wall you have to pay money to will be the death of Adult games on RPOL. It might not happen fast, but it will happen. Because less and less people will be willing to pay to get to only that, especially when they can go other places. I love RPOL and love the bells and whistles that go with it. As I have stated before, with the right GM's it is a safe place for people to come and write adult stuff without it being overly sexual in nature. Just because some of us write sex in our stories, doesn't mean we write porn.

I have stated before, I would be more then willing to pay to write in the adult part. I would love that it helps RPOL, and the mods and jase who do a wonderful job. But if I pay my money, and there is no people there to write with what is the point. When things eventually come through, this is what I see happening. A bunch of Adult gamers will pay to play. A bunch will not who will move to mature or off the sight completely. After that, then people will drop off because well there is a whole lot of games but either it is the same old people joining or no one at all. New people coming onto the sight, I don't see a lot of them paying for adult access especially if they can't even see in and lurk. Even if they can, as soon as you come onto a website like this and see "Pay Here" most times people are more so to say never mind.

Eventually less and less people are going to bother with the adult part of it, and eventually it will be dead. And I know jase has says it isn't his intent, but unfortunately that is what is going to happen. If it doesn't happen, and it helps the sight and we get a ton of people in great. But I find it hard to think that it will happen.

I very much get that the Adult games are a difficult area for the mods, and geez I couldn't even imagine some of the stuff you have to see. But that is the case anywhere with Adult anything, there will always be issues. Adding the subscription, I don't think will directly help. Like others have said, you will end up seeing more things happening in the Mature games that shouldn't. And just because someone decides to pay money to get onto a website, doesn't mean that they will behave either. This is the internet, lots of people do lots of stupid things.

If the adult section is such an issue, that so much work is going into it to have to deal with the bad people. One it isn't fair to punish the good people, who run their games the way they should be and handle things that come up without Mods getting involved. What might be an idea, and please don't ask how it should be handled because I don't know. But perhaps get the good people who run adult games, behave themselves and make sure their players behave themselves. Perhaps get them involved, get them to help out if they can in some way. I know being one of those good players, these bad people who make things more difficult annoy me, make me angry because they give the good people a bad name.

We are in our own way a community, and people do like helping their community especially if it is important to them.

It's been stated ad nauseam that that would not be the case. Other perks will be available. The adult game access is just another aspect of the subscription benefits. Just thought I'd point that out for you.

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 252):

But what some people do not see is the perks don't apply to everyone, yes they are being made for everyone. But for me not much I have seen is stuff I would use, so when I would pay for the subscription, it would only be for the adult access. And I would imagine some of that would be the same for a lot of others, of course not everyone but at least a good group.

So just because people are paying to use the perks, doesn't mean that it will fill in the adult games.

In reply to prophacyks (msg # 253):

This makes sense seeing as NONE of them have been unveiled yet.

But they have been hinted at, as I remember reading something or other in all of this mess that is going on. Like a bigger sketch pad, or I remember reading something about bigger maps or files for maps or something. I don't know. But the majority of things being done, are helping more the gamers who play system games, or who go into depth with certain things.

And I don't have anything against what they are considering using for that part, I really don't. But I tend to use the basic bare bones of RPOL for my games it is what works for me.

Yes, remember this point.  Adult access is only "free" at the moment because other people are paying for it.

RPoL does not owe you free Adult access on a continuing basis, any more than a local cinema or restaurant owes you free movies or food on a continuing basis.


Various countries are looking at ways to tighten up their laws on Adult content.  If RPoL does not do the same with its own rules, then one day you might log in and find that we've been forced into a situation where we have to remove all Adult content, or be closed down.

Wouldn't that be the death of Adult games on RPoL?  And that one will happen fast.

I've voiced my support for donations to other users as well.  I know, a user could donate one day, and the second user could leave the next day, so any donations given would have to be presented as going toward the site and nonrefundable.

An age check would still be needed, though.  When PayPal verified my checking account, the company sent a small credit to my account to make sure it was a legitimate account.  Could RPOL do something similar?  If one user has $20 slanted to them and have never verified their age, they could do a one-time $1 payment or something like that.

Speaking of paying for it, I've paid for it by way of a considerable time investment over the last two weeks.  Though there were unfortunately no viable alternate suggestions in this thread, the moderators and myself have been putting our collective heads together.  Coming in the next version will be the following changes:

1. New users will have to provide an age statement when signing up.  This age statement is month and year only (as are all other age statements referred to below).  We do not collect more than that as there are incredibly strict security and data retention requirements if we collect private/identifiable information (such as a full DOB), plus it is illegal to ask if the user is under a certain age in some countries.
   
   
2. Any user who is currently blocked from the adult section will remain so.  Subscription may be your only option to reverse this if your current denial is due to something other than the fact you're under 18 (if you're currently under 18 then you have to wait until you're not!).
   
   
3. Any user who currently has access to the adult section will be changed to have an adult access level of "not requested".  This includes existing and new members alike.
   
   
4. All users who wish to have adult access will need to provide an age statement / age of majority statement which requests access to the adult section.  At this point your adult access will change to "pending".  This submission will be put into a queue which will be reviewed by myself and the other moderators.  This statement will either be approved or denied depending upon the statement provided.
   
   Only a member who has an account that is over two weeks old can request adult access.
   
   
5. If a user's adult access is denied then see point 2.
   
   
6. If a user's adult access is granted then they have access to the adult area, but not to a specific adult game (read on to make sense of that).
   
   If you are granted (or denied) adult access you will receive an rMail letting you know.  The rMail auto-deletes once it's read.
   
   
7. Any adult game you enter and try to post in/manage (even those you GM!) will also prompt you for an age statement.  This statement is instantly registered, at which point you are permitted normal interaction in the game -- but only that game; you must do the same for each adult game you're in.
   
   By "normal interaction" I mean you can then perform whatever actions you normally would be able to, as dictated by the GM.  If you're a visitor then you can send/continue an access request, if you're a player you can post as per normal, if you're a GM you can manage the game as per normal.
   
   
8. If a game is changed to the adult classification then the above point will kick in immediately.  There is no longer any need to temporarily remove players to get age statements from their account name.
   
   As the game owner, you will be given a summary of who does and does not have adult access when you go to covert the game (including your own adult permissions).  If you don't have adult access then it won't let you change the classification.
   
   
9. As a GM, you will be notified as often as possible if a user has not provided an age statement for your game.  GMs can also see an overview of the age statements that their players have submitted, in so far that they can see if age statements have been provided, not the value provided.  The can do a similar check for prospective players.
   
   Generally you will not be able to add a new player to an adult game if they do not have access to the adult section of RPoL.
   
   
10. As a GM you will no longer have to collect age statements for players, the system handles it all automatically.

This message was last edited by the user at 10:19, Wed 13 Aug 2014.

Sounds like a fair and sensible system.
Thank you for all the time and effort you and the rest of the mod team have clearly put into this.

Will there be a 'grace' period so games can keep running while players and GMs alike rush to get adult access granted, and the mods deal with a whole boatload of adult access requests? For example, update happens, players/GMs in established adult games have two weeks (or another arbitrary unit of time) to get adult access granted?
Or will we just have to accept a game slow down until the system is up an running smoothly?

And, to check I understand point 7: I am in an adult game. Update happens. I request adult access. It is granted. I go to post in my adult game, RPoL asks me to provide an age statement to the game. I do, and can post as normal.

In reply to Low Key (msg # 259):

No grace period, it'll kick in and you'll have to request access.  We have a way of mass approving all ok looking requests, so we'll be able to approve the influx quickly.

Your understanding on point 7 is correct.  Once for the site and then once for each game.  It'll be a lot a the start for people who are already in a dozen games, but once it's in place it'll calm down.

Will update point 6 with something I forgot.

In reply to jase (msg # 258):

Looks good to me!

In reply to jase (msg # 260):

Thank you :)

Will this change lock out players without the statement from viewing adult games at all?

Basically with this change will more adult material be allowed in the publicly viewable area's of a game sonce only people able to view them can.

No, there will be no change in what is permitted in the public areas of a game.

Edit: In fact no changes whatsoever to restrictions on content.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:33, Mon 11 Aug 2014.

Jase, thanks for your hard work here.  It sounds like the transition will be quite smooth.

*** I may be in the minority on this, but is there a reason the rmail has to auto-delete? I'd prefer to keep it if possible, tho' I understand if y'all think it's better to self-destruct (preferably with the Mission Impossible theme playing <grin>).

I need to ask again, since no info came on this particular question and I don't like to try and slide stuff under the radar, in hopes that it will work: The adult access will be granted once we pay subscription via PayPal and provide the age statement asked for by Rpol.

My question is: is it possible to make a payment for subscription from someone else's PayPal account, as I actually have one that I share with a family member (both of us legal adults, but it's in her name) and creating my own account would result in me having to go through a long and bothersome process of getting a new credit card out. To be perfectly honest, it would take a really long time and I don't want to be absent from my games for so long.

Any return info on that?
This message was last edited by the user at 15:19, Mon 11 Aug 2014.

See jase's post above (msg #258).  There has been a change of plan.  We no longer intend to link Adult access to a subscription (except, possibly, for those whose Adult access has been deliberately removed).

In reply to jase (msg # 258):

I've already notified my players that this will go into the next update and that we will fully comply with it. Very happy to see this approach be taken, and I applaud the excellent staff here for planning to take it on!

Sooo, no subscriptions, but we simply... request access and that's it? Well, problem solved then! :D

Thank you so much! ^^

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 268):

Would it be possible to put the body of #258 in RPoL Announcements or similar. Only checked back on this thread because it had remained noisy for so long, otherwise would have missed it

Not exactly, there will be age statements, and checking and stuff.  :)



In reply to Jhaelan (msg # 271):

Already planned.  Just looking to see if it needs anything added/removed/cleaned up.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:55, Mon 11 Aug 2014.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 272):

Shiny :)

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 272):

Oh, god, check and re-check all you want, just don't make me go through bank bureaucracy and it's all good. XD

LOL agreed Ranna.

Thank you jase and everyone, very happy with this decision and will be letting my players know what to expect. I know we all want this to work. :-)

I bet there was substantial work put into that coding. Great plan. I hope it fixes any of the problems the site currently has with adult content. I'm glad to see you taking the issue very seriously. I didn't realize how many minors were here. I'm thinking about letting my young daughter try out rpol. I have to say that the idea stems in large part from the controls and rapid modding already in place. I know it's a safe place to let my kiddo browse and interact.


Thanks again guys and gals, keep up the good work.

When will the next version of the site go live?  Is this something to expect in the next few weeks, or will it be longer than that?

In reply to jase (msg # 258):

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! (and anyone else that helped) Looks awesome and honestly looks better than what I was thinking. Kudos! It's a system I can happily agree with and comply to. Can't wait to see it in action. :)

I rolled a 20 to throw a cabbage at the penguin!

Ooooops, wrong thread...

;=8)

and



Query regarding changing an existing game to Adult -- does this mean that if a game is currently rated "Mature" and is then changed to "Adult" (after the new version is released), there will be no need to remove all players and ask them to submit a new RTJ with the age statement?  That instead, the next time they try to access the game once it is changed to "Adult," the "prompt" referred to above will appear?

I was perfectly willing to pay the subscription, and will anyways because this site deserves my money.

But for this Jase, I would sit in an armchair and salute you while holding a scotch. You and your mods are truly kings and queens of men and women.

There should be no quick end to the adulation coming your way today, as is right.

In reply to Bevin Flannery (msg # 281):

This is how it was working when I tested it, and I think that's the way it's planned to stay.

That is, once a game is swapped to adult, the existing players won't be able to do anything with it until they (a) apply for adult access if they don't already have it and (b) supply an adult age/"legal for me to view" statement for that particular game.  However, since the system is the one doing the asking, they don't have to be removed first.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 283):

That's an unexpected benefit. Cool!

In reply to cruinne (msg # 283):

Fantastic.

I applaud Jase and the mods and will gladly join Sir_Chivalry in their armchair scotch salute. Extremely pleased to see that people's concerns and suggestions were taken into account for the matter and I think this is a great solution to the problem at hand. Sure, it won't fix everything, but it's a good step in the right direction. You'll still see my name on the subscription list when you do bring that out as well. I look forward to see what you have planned.

Cheers!

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 286):

What he said!

Really looking forward to what the subs bring to the table! I'll sign on regardless, but I'm really stoked to hear what all will be made available.

Man, I'd even join in the armchair-and-scotch salute, and I don't even drink scotch...*grin*

As a very vocal detractor of the previous subscription plans, let me say that I am immensely pleased with the route you guys have instead decided to take. Now you'll get my money, not because I want adult access, but because you've proved yet again how awesome the mods here are, and I truly do appreciate you answering all of my questions and complaints, and all of your hard work. I'm looking forward to the coming changes.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:37, Tue 12 Aug 2014.

I've updated my post with a few clarifications, which have mostly been answered anyway.


As Shannara mentioned we don't currently have a plan to change those requirements, but I have noticed that a side-effect of this is that you can't read any threads in an adult game without having adult access granted for the site.  So I'll either need to change it so that visitors can view group 0 threads (with the usual restrictions in place) or we can leave it restricted to those with adult access only, which means that it could possibly hold adult content.  We'll have to think about that one.



Because people won't bother to delete it, so we'll have thousands of rMails being stored that'll basically say "You know that thing that section you have access to?  You have access to it." (or not, as the case may be).



10:28 AM GMT, 13^th September 2014.  Give or take a month.  (c;
This message was last edited by the user at 10:29, Wed 13 Aug 2014.

Only problem I can see with making currently public threads visible only to Adult members is that they won't be able to serve as shop window for those games.  Players who don't yet have Adult access won't be able to see any part of the games that would be available to them if they did sign up for it.

So maybe they just wouldn't bother with Adult access, since for all they can tell, the games might not be worth joining.
This message had punctuation tweaked by the user at 11:01, Wed 13 Aug 2014.

I would really prefer having Group 0 / Public threads visible just as they are now.

It's not too much to ask (IMO) for GMs and players to take the responsibility to put adult content in private threads -- and we've had a lot of help from the users in identifying any problem threads and taking care of it pretty quick.

The trade-off in time spent policing / benefit to games would be worth it to me.

Those who keep 'forgetting' would probably end up losing adult access after a reminder or three, but accepting a little responsibility goes hand in hand with being adult, IMO.  :-)

I am chiming in with the other two monkeys moderators above: I think having a game's group 0 and public threads available to users and visitors is an important aspect of getting people interested in the game.

We've only had the occasional problem with Adult GMs not properly putting stuff in other groups, and it's normally resolved quickly (and with help from other site users).

I have neglected to figure out yet if Game Intros/Character Descriptions to Adult games are visible without access to Adult games, but I assume since we're not pondering that they just are?  I think we're likely had more issues with Adult materials there than in group 0/public threads.  (Not that I'm advocating hiding them from those without Adult access.)
This message was last edited by the user at 14:34, Wed 13 Aug 2014.

In reply to cruinne:

They are.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 16:52, Thu 14 Aug 2014.

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 294):

They are now, yes, but I think cruinne means after the new system goes in.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 295):

Yes, that's how it currently functions, but I was commenting on that I'm not sure how it will work after everything is settled.

That's what I thought.  :)

One thing about subscriptions: They might cut down on Double Trouble...or subscriptions go, say, like this: First subscription costs 1X; second (1+2)X; third, (1+2+3)X, etc.

I wrote "factor" earlier...poor memory. As I think on it now, having a factorial series would be a bit much: 1*2*3*4=24.
This message was last edited by the user at 08:35, Sun 24 Aug 2014.