The SAGA system is pretty good, but in any system there will be parts you disagree with or simply think could be improved upon.

So this thread is devoted to describing and discussing house rules we use either here on rpol or on a real table.

A few general rules from games I currently/previously run.

Dark Side Atonement:  It costs 3 Force Points to atone and remove a Dark Side Point - I think 1 FP is just too low to reduce the impact of the Dark Side.

Withdraw is now a full-round action, not just a standard action. But being a full-round, you can move up to your full speed instead of half. - It might not be a big thing to most people but our group implemented this one just a few sessions into our first SAGA tabletop game after the jedi just withdrew and charged every round.

Due to the sheer volume of feats and talents now available, I use an alternate method of class benefits. Each level you gain a class talent and class bonus feat, instead of at alternating levels. - this one is only in one of my games and yes it creates powerful characters, but it also gives you expanded options to take some feats/talents you wouldn't normally take given their rarity.

I also use a weekly XP system to combat the progression speed or rpol, usually 100XP a week and sometimes increase it to either 150 or 200 XP once players hit level 10.

I made some house rules for my own games.

FEATS & TALENTS
Normally, you get a new feat at every third level. I've made it so you can choose a feat or a talent at every third level.

Weapon Proficiency grants a +1 bonus when using weapons from the appropriate weapon group, and allow use of the Mechanics skill to modify or repair them. Without proficiency, using a weapon in a particular group gets no bonus on attack rolls (but no penalty for lack of proficiency), and the user's unfamiliarity prevents the use of Mechanics skills to modify or repair the weapon.

MULTICLASSING
Normally, taking a level in a new class gives you one of that class's starting feats as an immediate bonus feat. I also allow you to choose Skill Training in one of that class's class skills.

SKILLS
I condense Climb, Jump and Swim into Athletics. If a class has any of those as a class skill, it has Athletics as a class skill instead.

The Jump application of the Athletics skill works differently than in the core book:

Long Jump: You may leap 2 squares at DC 10, +1 square per +5 DC. Add +5 to the DC without a 4 square running start.
High Jump: You may jump 1 square at DC 10, +1 square per +10 DC. Add +5 DC without a 4 square running start.
Jump Down: You may decrease the damage from a fall by 2 squares at DC 15 and 1 more square per +5 DC.  If you take no damage, you land on your feet.

Trained skills can be chosen from any skill, not just the Class Skills list (except Use the Force, which can only be selected if you have the Force Sensitive feat). Class skills gain your level as a bonus.

Skill checks are like attack rolls, and so skills are treated with the weapons rules rather than the skill rules from SWSE Core. If using a skill untrained, apply a +0 bonus, similar to using a weapon without the appropriate Weapon Proficiency feat. Trained skills add a +1 competence bonus to rolls using the skill, as well as allowing Trained Only applications of skills. When making skill checks, add your training bonus, your level (if a class skill), your ability modifier, and a +1 competence bonus for having the appropriate Skill Focus feat.

This is to balance attacks against Will Defense with attacks against Reflex Defense.

ARMED ADVANTAGE
An unarmed character receives a -2 circumstance penalty to Reflex defense against attacks made with a melee weapon. Characters armed with melee weapons count as unarmed when defending against lightsaber attacks unless armed with a weapon that retains its Damage Reduction against lightsaber damage. This is to reflect that during the normal course of an attack round, defending characters parry, block, and dodge incoming attacks. Without a weapon that can parry incoming attacks, the character can't properly defend against attacks and must rely entirely on dodging. Characters with the Martial Arts feat are considered armed even when wielding no weapons.

TWO WEAPONS
As it stands, there is no difference between wielding two One-Handed weapons or having a Light weapon in the off-hand, even though the book's text describes most Small weapons as being used often as off-hand weapons for dual-wielding fighters. So, to give the short lightsaber, knife, and short sword more of a purpose, here is a rule covering Light weapons.

When wielding two weapons, if the off-hand weapon is considered Light, the fighter gets a +1 dodge bonus to Reflex Defense for each Dual-Weapon Fighting feat possessed. One-handed weapons already have a damage advantage over Light weapons, making this a fair tradeoff. Double-weapons, such as the double-bladed lightsaber and the quarterstaff, also gain this benefit.

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I have more: Weapon ranges, autofire-only weapons, retractable stocks, lightsaber construction, Force and Destiny Points, Dark Side Points, and Force Powers. But I thought this would be more than enough to start. It's kind of a lot already.

I'm noticing a trend in these rules. The first set allows more customization, namely selecting between talents and feats.

The other rules all seem to increase the power level of the character. Skills can now add your full level instead of 1/2, two-weapon fighting gets a defense bonus etc.

I like the lightsaber rules and the rest of them I am at worst indifferent. The one rule you bring up that I question is the weapon proficiency & mechanics relationshp.


This implies that in order to fix or improve a weapon, you have to be proficient in using it in a combat setting which excludes the scientist/engineer style character. I understand where you're going with this, part of being proficient with a weapon could be considered being able to maintain said weapon (clue the media representation of soliders disassembling and reassembling their weapons blind folded).

However there is a large difference between "basic combat maintenance to make sure your gun fires" and engineering skills required to truly fix or improve the weapon.

For example, if you were an expert on firing systems, you might not need to know whether the system is on a pistol, rifle, or heavier weapon. As long as you know the basic physics involved (bigger guns = bigger force) you should be able to improve upon that firing system without being a skilled with said weapon.

Maybe this was your intent and was just left out of the brief description but I would instead recommend that someone proficient in a weapon should be able to use mechanics on the weapon untrained. So even if you're a "dumb grunt" you can fix or modify your weapon (to varying degrees of course). If you're a trained engineer then it doesn't matter what kind of weapon it is.


On that note I've been toying around with the idea of splitting up mechancis but I don't know how to split it up?

Sabotage and Repair seems like two logical steps.
Big stuff (starships, large systems, large engines) vs. small stuff (weapons, armor, small systems, small engines, droids etc.) is another way.

My skill rules don't actually increase the power level of the character. Think of it like this:

Standard Rules
NPC Bob has is a level 5 Soldier with a Wisdom of 10. He has a Will Defense of 15, purely owing from his level. PC Ted is a Level 1 Jedi, with Cha 16 (+3) and Training in Use the Force (+5) and Persuasion (5). That gives him +8 to Use the Force, meaning he can do things like Affect Mind fairly accurately on a target he'd have a hard time hitting with regular attacks. At level 5, that Jedi would have +10 (+2 from half level). Very few targets at a comparable level will have a 20 Will Defense to match that unless they have a 20 Wisdom.

My House Rules
NPC Bob has that Will Defense of 15 still, but let's look at PC Ted. At level 1, he gets a +1 bonus to his class skills (but +0 to his non-class skills), and +1 to Use the Force and Persuasion for skill training. Now he gets a +5 total (including the +3 from Charisma) against the Soldier's 15 Will Defense. A bit more fair. And to coincide with that, weapons work just like skills, meaning you get a +1 for training with the weapon instead of -5 for not having the proficiency. Nobody likes having a bunch of penalties for not having something when you could get a bonus for having a thing instead.

For the weapon proficiencies, I think I've found the root of my intent by running a Star Wars D6 game. In D6, they have Blaster as a skill, which applies to blaster pistols and rifles, and Firearms, which applies to slugthrower pistols and rifles. Maybe rather than Weapon Proficiency: Pistols/Rifles, I should use Weapon Proficiency: Blasters/Slugthrowers. Then it would mean an understanding of how to fire that type of weapon (they operate similarly, but have different mechanisms, kickback, settings, etc), which would also translate to an understanding of how those weapons are put together and how their firing mechanics work. It simply doesn't make sense to differentiate between pistols and rifles when the real difficulty is blaster mechanics vs slugthrower mechanics.

About the Mechanics skill, Sabotage is simply repairing something wrong on purpose, and building a new thing is simply repairing something from scratch (if you want to think of it that way). I really agree that if you choose to split it, go with Personal Scale (weapons, armor, equipment, droids) vs Vehicle Scale (speeders and starships).

Heh. That doesn't even take into account the smart jedi that has skill focus use the force. (My jedi never leave home without it, particularly my human jedi)

So that first level Jedi has +13 to his use the force check. The Force will almost inevitably have a powerful effect on that weakminded soldier.

Even replacing NPC Bob with a Level 5 Noble, let's look at that Will Defense: +5 for level, +2 for being a Noble, and we'll say +2 for Wisdom 14 (with a 16 in Cha which isn't being used for this example). That's 19 Will Defense. If we do take Skill Focus into account (bwahaha), that level 1 Jedi takes 10 for a 23 on Use the Force checks. At level 5, that goes up to 25.

That's not all.

If you're willing to burn a destiny point, and are human with strong in the force as your other feat...

You have a 33 on your check+1d8.

"You...successfully mindtrick Emperor Palpatine...WTF?!!?!?!"

Has anyone come up with anything for starship combat? Specifically to keep it from requiring such a specialized character in order to just survive a few rounds? The way it is, the Ace prestige class almost seems required just to be a pilot, let alone an actual ace. I suppose what I'm looking for is something in the way of a character having more to do with their ship than just a tiny  and useless defence for having a high Pilot skill.

Pretty much there will be no pilots, given that starships are forbidden in the first place.  There's little incentive to make a pilot when you won't have a ship to fly.

If you're interested beyond this forum's games, take a look at my pilot's handbook above and grab the Aqua options.  A lot of it's since been invalidated by our local houserules but for other games. . .

Take Vehicular Combat and get trained in Pilot.  Obtain at least one Starship Tactics and choose Attack Formation Zeta Nine.  If you have enough wisdom for further maneuvers pick up a couple of shield hits and possibly Target Lock.   For the cost of two feats and a single trained skill you're now a decent pilot who can hold their own in a fight against enemies who aren't aces themselves.  Buy a jetpack to put your pilot skill to use on the ground.  If you want to go whole-hog you can get skill Focus: Pilot but it's not absolutely needed for a non-ace.

If you want to go further, and have enough credits and it fits the game, buy an AT-XT for ground combat and your pilot skills will now operate during ground combat.  If you're playing a soldier, consider taking heavy weapons proficiency and talents that boost your heavy weapon damage. If your GM tries to put you in an absolute crap ship like a Dynamic Freighter or Ghtroc, beg for something cheaper but vastly better like a Vaya Scout.

Hmmm... I suppose it does come down to a severe lack of feats and talent slots available to an 'average' character. Starship combat is an essential part of Star Wars to me (appears in every movie) and should be as common as basic cars or horses in any other game setting.

Yeah, that's why it's valuable to get stuff that a pilot can also use on the ground, Vehicular Combat works in any vehicle so grab a ground vehicle too, and airspeeder if you can find one (you can't, I've tried).  Heavy Weapons are good on the ground too and your weapon specialization will be active all the time instead of just in space.

But yeah, I find a lot of my interest gone if ships and piloting are off the table as well.

The biggest issue comes in the way of Jedi that, according to every bit of media, are suppusedly all expert pilots (even Obi Wan, who apparently hated flying) but have even more talents and feats that have to be crammed into their regular slots. Trying to get players to bother with any starship abilities is toughest of all.

Well, you could always just use Anakin Skywalker's writeup as an example for how to make a Jedi that can fly.

Just copy his stats and talents and feats down, tit for tat, and boom, flying jedi.

It's more an issue that Jedi are the best at everything in the movies.  Stealth? Jedi.  Bluff? Jedi. Combat? Jedi, maybe you have to go Sith at ranged.  Trade Route Taxation Negotiations?  Send a Jedi, not a diplomat.  Leading Armies?  Jedi.  Healing? Jedi (and definitely not medical droids, dying of a broken heart indeed!).

Game balance, particularly when not all players are going to want to carry the glowstick of doom, requires that non-jedi sometimes be good at things too.  I'm comfortable with Jedi not being so omnicapable, although notable Jedi are still better at just about everything than anybody else in the game.

As for using Anakin's writeup, probably not a good idea.  Not only is it too high a level for any game I've seen on RPoL (14), he's an incompetent pilot in his statblock with no maneuvers, and only one feat and two talents related to piloting.  Anybody using the partial build I suggested above would beat him at the same level without force powers.  I'd expect a dedicated pilot I built to take him in starship combat at around level 8 to 10 (though he'd eat such a pilot on the ground).

As a veteran of the West End Games D6 StarWars, I guess I liked the fact that the character had more to do with their ship than the D20 Saga does. Was hoping someone had come up with something to rectify this. But I see your point in using certain talents and feats on the ground as well in AT PTs, etc.

So I've seen in another game that a jetpack is not considered a 'vehicle'. Any other thoughts on this? Can Vehicular Combat be used with a Jet Pack? Can maneuvers?

Pretty much a GM judgement area and Wizards never did give an answer about it despite being asked a few times.  Since the rules don't explicitly say the jetpack is a vehicle it's unwise to assume it is until your GM has rules otherwise.  As for maneuvers, almost certainly no.  You can only use maneuvers in a starship or airspeeder, or when firing a vehicle weapon of any kind for gunnery maneuvers.  Even if it's ruled a vehicle there's no reason to think a jetpack should be ruled an airspeeder.

Cool. Just getting a feel of the vague community opinion. They certainly didn't seem to have  'Rocketeer' style maneuverability in the movies.

If I were going to make a quick ruling on it, I'd say that they are equipment not a vehicle. My reasoning for this is that vehicles make that jump in size that requires you to attack objects/parts of the vehicle when using personal sized weapons. Jetpacks (as Han Solo showed us in Jedi) are susceptible to small arms fire.

The way I understand how Jetpacks work is that maneuvers take the Pilot Skill, but landing requires the Jump Skill.  The kinds of Starship Maneuvers you can use with a Jetpack are very limited.  It's not like you have enough juice in them for a dogfight, and you certainly don't have Starship Weapons.  It's basically a means of getting from Point A to Point B, usually over terrain or obstacles that would make getting there on foot impossible.

Eh, jump isn't involved in a jetpack, just pilot.



But yeah, no real reason to make a jetpack a vehicle.  The only reason I suggest it at all is because a pilot can make those pilot checks and thus get a bit more utility than other characters.  If you want your vehicular combat on the ground just get an AT-XT, Republic Troop Transport, or Shelter Speeder.  One rocks due to it's low price and awesome firepower, the other two are inexpensive airspeeders that benefit from your maneuvers.

Now if you were to develop some sort of Ironman-like suit that actually gives the wearer total cover and has an Int modifier of its own... I'd probably consider that a vehicle (tiny- most likely). Unfortunately it would probably also be one of those things that the Imps are building a prototype of and a rebel cell is sent in to steal the plans and either steal or destroy the prototype... I think a may have started writing my next campaign...

I believe those were DarkTroopers...

I thought the dark troopers were somehow force sensitive? Then there were the other ones that were more like oversized droids.

Don't recall any force sensitiveness. Phase 1 were droids. Phase two were a sort of super 0-G Stormtrooper suit. Phase three was a super upgrade of both. A droid body that could open up and have a pilot inside. All were lightsaber resistant though.

DarkTroopers are just droids... really tough battle droids.  They couldn't possibly be Force Sensitive.  Now Kyle Katarn, the hero of Dark Forces, he was Force Sensitive.

The Iron-Man suit is something totally different.  That would be a modified suit of Power Armor, something good like Scout Armor that has a built in Repulsor flight system.  It then would have Blasters built into the arms and the droidification modification so that it has a computer that can talk to you.  But it remains armor, even if the Droidification can make it walk on its own.  Using it would require Armor Proficiency (Medium or Heavy) depending on how much defense you want it to give.  Flying in it would take the Pilot Skill.  As for Jump Skill, I've been looking through all my books, and yeah, I did borrow that part from Revised Edition.  It makes sense to me.  Boba Fett never made landing look easy.  His legs took a lot of impact and there are moments when he looks like he's going to fall over.

Naw, Jurnee has the right of it.  Rebellion Era Campaign Guide page 128:

"The original Dark Trooper project uses droids rather than living beings wearing power armor.  However, Dark Trooper phase II and III models are designed to work as both independent droids and wearable suits of armor."

The force sensitivity, I seem to recall that in some EU comic of something but just about everything is called force sensitive at some point in some EU bit of fanfic.

Now if you got a collection of Shards (Jedi Academy sourcebook; see Iron Knight alternate tradition) and put them into an army of Dark Trooper suits, THEN you've got one powerful force sensitive droid army.

Do you think Jedi who grow up in a temple (ya know, the younglings who do it right, were trained from the time they were 2 or whatever it is...), should have a Force Training Feat at 1st level, free?

(On the basis of, if you're growing up in the Temple, under Yoda and whoever else is teaching the younglings, how do you even get picked as a level 1 Padawan without it?)

"What level are you born with" has always been a thorny question for DnD but it's a bit of an edge case.

I'd expect a typical level 1 padawan to take 1 level of Jedi for class and force training as her first level feat.

Sure, but that limits 'Strong in the Force' to humans, as you must start with that, or you never get it, as I understand it.

The logic of having a free Force Training is similar to that of getting the Block and Deflect Talents free. That is, they're not letting you out of the Temple without those things.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:19, Sun 06 Oct 2013.

It's entirely possible to become a Jedi Knight and never take Block or Deflect. Anyone with an inkling of the Force and a lightsaber can scoot a blaster bolt or two, or parry an incoming attack. That's narrative stuff, while Block and Deflect are mechanical representations of telling someone their attack was just moved to the side outright. Just comes to what aspect of the character class you want to focus on.

Likewise, a level 1 Jedi, someone who's been accepted for going on missions but has no practical experience and is far too young to be lifting X-Wings out of swamps, isn't going to need Force Training. They'll have training in Use the Force, which gives all kinds of appropriate powers, but Force Training shouldn't be free. It isn't even on their bonus feats list. You only get it as a character feat, not a class feat. That is, level 1/3/6/etc.

If you want to make characters more powerful than normal, you could give them Force Training for free. I'd just suggest giving non-Jedi something equivalent to keep up.

In reply to PC Angelalex242 (msg # 32):

This is, in general, why I don't want to play in level 1 games, you can't actually fit most concepts with so few resources to spread around.  But in this specific case, that's. . . not what the feat says and there's no errata on it.  It's not even really a Jedi feat much.


In the case where a PC's background says they came from the temple (Unlike, say, that one droid with Jedi levels or that Luke guy), giving them a free feat due to backstory sets a bad precedent.  Should Nobles who specify they're actually royalty get Wealth free, because no Royal is going to be dirt poor?  Should Scoundrels who say they're smugglers get a free starship, because you can't smuggle stuff any other way? (actually that last one might not be a bad idea).  If so, isn't that punishing players who choose other backstories, by making them weaker in comparison?

On the other hand, I will note that first-level Jedi are somewhat weaker than other classes (scoundrel is also a bit weak), and I wouldn't be opposed to houseruling all Jedi another class starting feat or skill slot, to make the Jedi a bit more appealing as a first level class.  I see a lot of effective Jedi builds start out in another class and then multiclass to Jedi, to get around Jedi's pitifully small number of starting skills and feats.

Edit: Bah, ninja'd by Nintaku with almost the same points.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:07, Sun 06 Oct 2013.

Well, those background feats you mentioned aren't entirely a bad idea either. All characters might get a free 'background feat' or 'background talents' based on where they grew up and how they lived before the game started.

It just...produces a level of 'sameness' between Jedi if all Jedi have their first, 3rd, and 6th level feats pre determined to be Force Training (so as to be properly trained in time to be a Knight by level 8)

Admittedly, a Human Jedi hellbent on learning his craft could be done at level 3, though, if he spends his human feat on Force training, along with his level 1.

But it's quite true...all the bigshot feature jedi...Anakin, Luke, Palpatine...start out as a NON jedi class, and later go into jedi or sith apprentice or what have you.

Free Force Training for 1st level Jedi would balance out the 2+int skills they get, I think. And discourages people from making their first level anything but jedi, in order to game the system for 6+int or 5+int skills.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:18, Sun 06 Oct 2013.

Hmm, on the one hand I note that all the Jedi in the movies are basically the same.  All of them have block/deflect as talents and move object, mind trick, and battle precognition as force powers and most sith take force lightning as well.  You just don't see a whole lot else.  Ultimately without delving into a lot of EU stuff or fighting styles that are hard to even notice if you're not told they're there, it's hard to tell Aayla Secura from Obi Wan Kenobi in terms of any mechanical options that you could throw together to mimic what they do on-screen.

On the other hand, just because it looks that way in the movies doesn't mean it's fun to play as your character, I consider fun to trump genre emulation at a certain point.  Part of the problem, then, is that Force Users are still inherently a much narrower field than the other types of characters.

Just going soldier, for instance.  A character says they're a soldier and pulls out a sniper rifle, it's good.  He pulls out a starship, yeah he's a combat pilot.  A medkit, totally a battlefield medic.  All perfectly good soldiers.  But if somebody says they're a Jedi and doesn't pull out a Lightsaber, they're already deviating hugely from the archetype.

Well, maybe I should open this up, as 'free Force Training' may not be the only way to balance things.

What would you say is powerful enough to discourage a Jedi from taking 1 level of noble, or scout, as his first level, and instead encourage him to take his first level as jedi?

Remember, in the worst case scenario (Noble), that's /4/ extra skills, or 4 skill training feats...you're trying to make up for.

Not quite as one-sided as all that.  Noble gets 4 more trained skills. . . and 12 fewer HP, less a point of BAB (which can never be replaced), and one of their bonus feats is Linguist, widely considered one of the most worthless feats in the game which can be casually replaced by cheap equipment.  And you're not getting into Jedi Knight at 8th level because you lost a point of BAB there, that's a very serious loss.

I would say one good feat would be sufficient for the Jedi.  They lack skills but they have a plethora of talents that let them replace X skill with "Use the Force" which effectively dramatically increases their actual skill range despite their small starting number, and allows them a high skill check despite not having the right attribute for a given skill, such as a clumsy spaz being an awesome pilot with force pilot.

Scout is a whole 'nother issue.  Everybody wants it for Evasion and not much else.  It has a lot of skills but the skills it can actually train in aren't that attractive or useful, once you've got stealth, perception, and initiative you've probably got most of the good skills (oh look, it can add jump and swim, how special).  Noble kind of has the same issue, all it's skills are either knowledge, social, or a couple of technical skills like mechanics, there's not really that many good skills to train unless you're specifically a social butterfly.  Ultimately I usually see every build devolve into Base 3/Base 4/Prestige Class X.  No base class is really attractive for more than a few levels and easy multiclassing is a feature of the system.

One extra feat on top of what's already there?

Well, maybe something like Weapon Focus Lightsaber, if you feel Force Training's just too powerful to start with as a freebie?

Or Force Boon? Strong in the Force?
This message was last edited by the player at 20:46, Sun 06 Oct 2013.

That's the thing about House Rules.  They exist so that GMs can adjust the feel of their games and/or manipulate the decisions players make as to what kind of character they want to play.  For example, if the GM wants to run a low-level game for Jedi but have them face epic-scale odds, then the GM will want to give Jedi characters who were raised in the Jedi Temple that Force Training Feat for free.  It would be designed to make players want to play Jedi as opposed to a Scout or a Soldier.  On the other side, if the GM doesn't want a slew of Jedi characters in his game, he won't give Jedi characters a free anything so that players see that there are better options to playing Jedi.

The spirit in which this question is asked is something I agree with totally.  Jedi Suck!  Saga Edition really gimps what a Jedi is capable of.  I mean, I know they were trying to create a balance between the character classes.  But when you watch the movies, where's the balance?  Jedi are supposed to be unbalanced.  It just means that when GM want to have Jedi characters in there game that actually feel like the Jedi in the movies, then the GM has to come up with House Rules.  There's just no way around it... other to make a game for really high level characters.  But that's a whole different sort of trap.  High level characters need high level opponents.  And high level opponents take so long to kill.  And long combats in rpol slow to such a crawl that players leave the game.  Thus to speed up combat, more House Rules need to be written.

Jedi are also highly MAD. The default array (15.14,13,12,10,8) forces a Jedi to 'dump' a stat...and his choices there are con or int. Most pick Int, and then the jedi with few skills gets even less of them, and has to be RPed as 'not too bright' besides.

By contrast, let's look at the Feature Characters out of the book...

Darth Vader:
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Obi Wan Kenobi:
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15
Padme Amidala
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 18
Luke Skywalker (Ep 6)
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Leia Organa (Ep 6)
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 16
Han Solo
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14


Lucas Characters seem to be based on '14s across the board, + some level up bonuses'

As such, a 'Lucas' Point buy is actually about 36 points. And you wonder why poor little 25 point buy characters just don't seem to match up to movies.

Note that MAD is a result of the Jedi concept (specifically, that the Jedi needs to be both force wizard and lightsaber-weilding beatstick in one package), not the Jedi class.  "Pure" Jedi are actually slightly less MAD than Jedi who are built using Nobles or Scouts with Force Sensitivity.  The reason is, Jedi can afford to dump dex more than other classes, as their Deflect and Block talents (which, unlike force talents, are Jedi only) help protect them so they can live with a lower dex score than the Noble Jedi who needs to keep up that reflex save to stay alive.

And yeah, I'm perpetually irritated by how the canon characters invariably get outrageous bonuses and gear players aren't allowed to have.  If I'm playing Star Wars, I wanna be Han Solo.  Or Maybe Artoo.  Not Randon Stormtrooper #45, or the mouse droid they met on the Death Star.

And if you wanna be Han Solo, your GM needs to give you a 36 point buy to stay even with the 'Lucas Point Buy.'

In the Star Wars Epic, I consider the 25 point buy to be effectively equivalent to a mook. "You're random Stormtrooper #28 in a Lucas Film, make the best of it." 'Or, "You're a not particularly gifted jedi in the Temple wearing a red robe when Order 66 comes around. Make the best of it."

Also, I disagree about Jedi dumping Dex. Note that for almost all the features, their dex is 16, flat out. (By contrast, I always thought the Jedi would feature Wis or Cha as their highest stat. How wrong I am! You'd think Anakin, as the 'Chosen One' would have a Charisma Score of something like 23 before he got maimed.)
This message was last edited by the player at 04:43, Mon 07 Oct 2013.

Yes, that default stat array or using only 25 point buy makes for some pretty meh characters.  It's hard to be epic without real epic stats.  I wouldn't compare them to a mook though.  Mook npcs have lower stats than that.  And Starting Credits are pretty weak also.

This is why I've never seen a game where the GM did that for stats.  They're always giving more points for stats generation.  And often they will give more credits for equipment.  But the ships they seem to like having control over.  They never give the characters a ship as great as the Millenium Falcon.  Got to give the characters something to aspire to, I guess.

This is why I have recently started a new slew of solo adventures.  I'm trying to do things no other GM has done before.  From actually using the Basic Stat Array.  Okay, I later give players the option of buying up their stats using Credits so that they're given the choice between having good stats or good equipment.  I then am giving them a ship and a droid.  Got a request?  I just grant it.  I am trying to break myself of being a total control freak by giving a lot of the power to the players to create their own character and do their own thing.  I'm also actually using the Destiny Rules.  I mean besides just spending points to save their bacon.  I mean insisting they take achievable Destinies, play those out as a single adventure, and give rewards for completing their Destiny.

I meant mechanically, if you're building a jedi yourself and take deflect/block, you can afford to dump dex without compromising defense.  Lucas-made canon characters don't generally have dump stats, as you've pointed out.

My guess is that the title of "Chosen One" is earned by breaking the rules.  GM Lucus must have really liked that player by letting such a blatant breaking of the rules slide.

GM Lucus was running a high power game. Obi-wan's stats aren't THAT much worse then Vader's. And the worseness can be explained by Vader being so darn high level. And Luke's about on par with Obi Wan.

It sounds like that GM Lucus is a munchkin powergamer.  I certainly don't want to play in any of his games.  I like my challenges to actually feel challenging.  It's not wonder Anakin was so arrogant.  It's like the GM didn't want him to fail and he knew it.  At the same time, he must have been played by someone like me who would get tired of always succeeding and in the end do something to fail intentionally, especially when it comes to defying a prophecy.

If I ever get around to it, maybe I'll compile a list of what 'point buy' the average for 'GM Lucus' is across all books. My current guess is that 36 will turn out to be the average, but I wonder if other books will adjust it up or down.

We need to remember that GM Lucas cheated and used magic items in his epic. Look at the way that Anakin was acted... Cha of 8 tops. Then he gets a magic suit of armour that gives him a wicked bonus +15 bonus and an additional +5 to intimidate.

In fact, I'm starting to think that Black is a magic colour in Star Wars Movies. At least for Skywalkers. Anakin and Luke were both non-likable (whiny) characters until they started wearing black. Anakin was still a whiny female dog in episode three so they encased him in black. Bam! Suddenly he's cool for Episode IV.

Actually Charisma is described in the Core Rules as "... measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.  It represents actual strength of personality and force of presence, not merely how others perceive you in a social setting."  The fact that Anakin is "whiny" is just a character flaw.  So he has the maturity of an 8 year-old?  I have met quite a few whiny people who can be annoyingly persuasive so that they always get their way.  Anakin is really played as having a high charisma.  He's a natural leader, attractive, self-confident, persuasive, and makes Padme's nipples stand on end just standing in the same room with her.  Being whiny is just an unfortunate side effect of almost always getting your way that comes from having a high charisma.  In short, people don't have to be likeable to have a noticeable presence.

Technically, I think the magic item he got was 'James Earl Jones as a voice actor.'

I remember playing a DnD campaign where one of the PC's was a sorceress with cha 20+ and the attitude of a female dog. I was doing an event summary and made an off hand remark about her being amazingly attractive. The player then pipes up and says, "how do you know that she's that good looking? I've never described her features." My reply, "I know what your stats are and Cha is a combo of looks and attitude. Your attitude sucks so you must be dang hot."

Hahahahaha.

I remember a game where somebody Playing an Aasimar Paladin was at a gaming table. One person said, "How the hell does HE have a charisma of 20?" Another player said, "Not his looks." Another said, "Not his personality." The GM said, "Write it off to his 'otherworldliness.'"

Hmm, I did a parody of that in a comedy game once.  Very high charisma character who was surly, had trouble speaking in full sentences, and was hideously ugly.  The charisma factor?  Extremely pleasant body odor.

Extremely pleasant body odor?  That must explain the +2 Charisma bonus for Falleen.  Because otherwise they have a face like a Human mated with an alligator.

Let it not be said though that a pleasant body odor isn't a turn on.  For otherwise plain or ugly people, their body odor would be the deciding factor.  Hence why some nerds get laid and others never.

Just catching up on this thread. I recently came upon The Jedi Path book that talks about the various Force Skills, claiming that Control is first learned as an Initiate (first level), Sense as a Padawan (Sometime between 2nd and sixth), and doesn't begin learning Alter until they've graduated into Knighthood.

Maybe combining the basic lightsaber talents would solve some issues? Combining Block with Lightsaber Proficiency and Deflect/Redirect with each other?

Or you just say that Block/Deflect is just part of the Lightsaber Proficiency Feat and that you have to be trained in Use The Force to do it.  And then any Force Sensitive character can learn it by taking the Lightsaber Proficiency Feat and learning the Use the Force skill.

Any way you do it, I suppose the West End Games system handled creating Jedi best.  Personally, I am more fond of the D20 Revised Star Wars for when it comes to making Jedi.  The only problem I have with it is the Vitality hit point system where using Force skills costs you Vitality.  So in effect, the more you use the Force powers, the more easily you are killed.  So just make the use of your Force skills count.  And that leads to some pretty nasty min-maxing.  But then again, the skill min-maxing was something of an all around problem with that game system.

Has anyone tried doing away with Hit Points altogether, and use Damage Threshold as a resistance roll?

This concept intrigues me. Please elaborate further.

It would be like going back to the WEG version, where you just use the condition tree for damage. D20 + Damage Threshold versus damage? This is not a completely thought out idea, but I was curious if anyone else had tried it. I simply find that a sufficiently high HP character suddenly scoffs at E-Webs and the like.

Or being that schmuck who goes down after getting shot once by a pistol because you made a crappy resistance roll.

It happens. Some Feats would undoubtedly have to be changed to compensate.

Some?  Yes, there are only so many Feats that deal with damage and staying alive.  Still, changing the whole system for "staying alive" is a major change to the fundemental rules of a game.  You can hardly call it D20 Rules anymore.  It would now have a major difference from D&D.  D20 without Hit Points isn't D20 anymore.  It's just another game system that uses a d20 die a lot.  It might as well be Torg.