I have had the desire to run a magical academy game for a long time.  I've tried several times in the past, with D&D, and had very mixed results.

I've been thinking through how to make it work out, and I am sort of stuck between which would work better, freeform or D&D?

freeform promotes creative writing and tends to draw players more looking for story than mechanics.  It would also allow me to tailor the setting to be what I want it, mix in whatever I feel like.
But the lack of mechanics would make it hard to really define what spells/magic the characters are learning.  There's no way to feel accomplished, growing in power, aside from describing it in creative text, which doesn't seem as concrete.

D&D on the other hand has a very thorough system to show magical abilities, a growth in magic, and gaining wider capabilities.  But it also draws more of a mechanical bend to players and games, with characters designed to fight, not to be social.  It would also be hard to go through a growth of beginner magic user to powerful practitioner without sort of fast forwarding through some of it.

(Just to clarify my current idea for a magic centered academy game in D&D is centered on the Arcane Congress in Eberron setting.  I am thinking allowing characters as 2nd level gestalt, with either wizard, sorcerer, or artificer as one side of the gestalt.  I figure this would allow for a wider variety of characters and capabilities.

Then splitting 'classes' between spontaneous and learned arcane magic, with various instructors teaching different things.  Maybe have some sort of exam or test that would be more of a puzzle combat experience to gain xp, allowing players to level up and also take lessons.)

Which system do you think is more appealing?  any idea how to counter some of the problems I have described?

Why not do both? Run it as a freeform game but use the constraints of D&D to define what characters are and are not capable of when it comes to magic. If the goal is to have a game centered around the social aspects of a magic academy while still having defined limits and trackable progress, this seems like a good compromise.

Is there a reason you're so interested in D&D over other potentially more narrative focused systems?

I would be willing to look at other systems, but I do not know of many that have a similar style of fantasy magic.

I think you're selling players of D&D short, here. Anyone can make a social character in any game, if they're willing to actually RP the character through 24/7 life instead of just rolling dice when the GM throws a combat encounter at them. You just need players that want to ROLEplay instead of ROLLplay.

As for fast-forwarding, that's normal for any system - even free-form - if you want the characters to have a massive jump over a short period of time. More XP = Faster growth.

I suppose finding those specific players is the difficulty, because I have run over a dozen D&D games on this site and that has consistently been an issue, in comparison to other systems and freeform.


so, no, I am not selling players short.  I am describing my experience on this site, with these games, including multiple attempts to run a game very similar to the one I have described.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:54, Sat 08 June 2019.

I think OutlawJT nailed it.  Straight freeform will see people trying to tackle different power levels differently.

What version of D&D would you be using if you go that route?
This message was last edited by the user at 20:27, Sat 08 June 2019.

While there have been versions of D&D that had trouble keeping both role and roll as relevant components, but 5e isn't one of those.

Assuming you plan to use 5e D&D 2nd level Gestalt should work just fine for 'adult students' in the wizard and sorcerer classes, if you plan to include warlocks or bards then 3rd level may be a better plan so they can start out with their subclasses at least picked out.

One of the biggest draws for me would be to see new or unique spells. Would you allow the occasional third party or home made spell?
This message was last edited by the user at 21:32, Sat 08 June 2019.

Hm...I kind of worry that D&D would be a bit too constrictive to be honest. I mean, you're literally talking about Gestalt characters that will have a whole extra class worth of abilities? And everybody will have to focus on learning very specific spells that might not give them what they want to do, and there'll be whole swathes of stuff you probably won't be interacting with much.

Personally, I would suggest a more freeform method where people can still learn specific spells or levels abilities, but they'll also have clear limitations. That way you can still have pseudo mechanical progression, but can create whatever spells you wish and have people advance in ways they find exciting.

Not to mention that even 1st level characters (let alone second level Gestalt characters) are already, well, powerful characters. They'd hardly seem like students.

I once played a 12th level character who's background was as an advanced apprenticeship training as a war wizard of cormyr.  There are lots of kinds of students, they don't all have to be ignorant 12 year olds.

5e D&D has plenty of versatility to manage picking skills.  Particularly if you push the game in a wizard direction.  Alternatively you can add a 'learning' component to spells rather than just transitioning from unknown to known suddenly.

I think however the point isn't to learn how to make the magic turn on, it is to learn how to use the magic properly and efficiently in specialist circumstances.

Honestly, I have no experience at all with 5e D&D.  If I used the idea it would have been 3.5.

I guess I'll have to think on it further.  I'd still be afraid people would do sort of what you just described, join just to see how powerful mechanically they could get, what abilities they could get to.  D&D games always seem to boil down to crunching the mechanics, trying to max power or ability.

Players aimed at that tend not to care about talking to other students, or learning about the fluff of the game as much.

I mean, especially if you aim for a Gestalt game...that's mostly what you're going to get. I might recommend trying to find a different system to help with what you want to do, or do pseudo-freeform.

I think there's enough variety to choose from that Gestalt wouldn't be necessary.  Bring the focus more your character's style/personality and flavoring or reskinning magical effects.  I think as soon as someone goes to make a gestalt character they starting thinking combos and mechanical synergy.

I sort it see it the opposite, but that may be why this idea won't work well in d&d.  Low level wizards tend to all be the same, players don't go for flavor as much as what works best.  Which may be the core of why I should aim for freeform.


Any ideas on how to make a freeform game where progressing in magic knowledge feels rewarding?  Or another system with a detailed fantasy magic aspect?

Unfortunately, no.

Maybe strip away all the mechanics, and simply let players choose from a certain number of spells from each level with one or two higher level spells that are their focus or specialty.  Or a minor school of magic feat/ability.

Only let PCs gain new spells or feats if they play it out in character.  Some might focus on many weak spells, others a single higher level one, and others may go for a feat that allows them to use one particular spell in a unique way.

How many players are you looking to get? If it's a smaller group 4-5 then, like I said variety shouldn't be an issue with a single class.  If you are wanting a group of 20 or so, then I start to see your point.

Hm...I can't think of the best systems off the top of my head right now ha ha. A lot of the systems I particularly like are somewhat similar to D&D as far as fantasy games go.

There are various ways you can make progressing in magical knowledge feel rewarding.

Even if there's no real mechanics, you can always still have them only be able to do specific things with spells. For example, getting the power to light a fire, but only like a candle could later upgrade to fireballs or other things. If you make it clear what abilities they do and don't have it can really push things in that direction. If it makes you more comfortable, you can always do 'GM decides the result of actions' to accompany this.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:48, Sun 09 June 2019.

Maybe a class like game just won't work on this site.  At least not what I am looking for.

Maybe I need to think of a different way of approaching a story about a gathering of magically capable individuals.

I'm not really looking for a game like Harry Potter.  I was thinking more of an academy that expands characters into masters, powerful magical adepts.  Not teaching wingardium leviosa to preteens.

So I think them not being 1st level would still fit my idea.  But I don't really know how to avoid the tendency of D&D having story and roleplaying bow to mechanics.

maybe have a game where characters are given both options, where some players could go on a 'field trip' of sorts to experience more of something like a dungeon delve, while others stay in the academy and learn about the people, deal with inter-character stories and mysteries.  and then the next chance players can choose again what they want to do.

Hm...have you looked into Powered by the Apocalypse games at all? A game in that framework might be able to provide a bit more structure without making mechanics too cumbersome.

If, for whatever reason, 5e D&D is not an option I would not suggest using any previous edition, as they will add more complexity than needed.

Powered by Apocalypse is a good second choice, Savage Worlds can get it done.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, because while the setting is very different, the mechanics may be what you're looking for: Invisible Sun by Monte Cook Games.  The whole premise is that the characters are scholarly magicians of various sorts (one is wizardly, one is sort of a free-form sorcerer, one is a summoner, one is an artificer-type, and one is a free-form magician) and the pace of the game assumes lots of research, and even exemplifies and rewards the nitty-gritty of finding components, books, teachers, or unusual beings in order to grow in magic.  Magic is the central conceit of the game, and combat is very rare and often deadly (and it mostly assumes you are not getting into it unprepared, because you should have been doing research).  You gain secrets of magic and learn special talents as you grow, and can choose to focus on your academic side, or your talent side (or both, if more slowly).  The game assumes you already start as low-level masters of your craft, so it's about growing into a truly powerful magician.

While the setting is unusual and surreal, the mechanics could easily be transferred to Eberron.  There are several sub-systems in the game that can be ignored to simplify it (relating to the philosophy inherent in the default setting), allowing for a more pure magical research/academy experience.
This message was last edited by the user at 01:44, Sun 09 June 2019.

5e wasn't an option because I've never looked at a 5e book.  I'd have to learn the whole system and the changes in it before I could run it with any confidence.  I know 3.5 much better, so it was my default.

I will take a look at the systems you suggested.

it may be that I just need to put this idea on the back burner, since I don't have a good way to run it.  Try to find a similar but different idea that would fit better on rpol.

Have you tried Pathfinder?  The rules are near enough 3.5 that you won’t have to learn a new system, but they give enough options to  individualize sorcerers (bloodlines) and wizards (arcane schools) that gestalt is unnecessary.  They even gain new ability ad they level up, so you feel like you are advancing in magic. It’s even free! Just look up Pathfinder STD.

I really think the reason so many people are suggesting 5e is because it has made changes that do what you are trying to do.  3.5 was extensively given to number bloat and munchkinry.  Pathfinder even moreso; I directly recommend against.  5e's bounded system and less-granular bonuses take out most of the options for exactly what you're complaining about, leading to the players you're complaining about being largely bored away from it or showing up in a few easily-spotted configurations.  It's not what you want, and your answer is you won't do it, and that's fine.  I'm not saying you should.  I'm saying I think you don't yet know that you want to.

That's not really true, I know what I want to do in broad terms, I just don't know the best way to accomplish it.  But that doesn't really matter.

I'll take a look at 5e, but I won't be able to learn it to the degree needed to run this game, if I chose to run it that way anytime soon.

Right now I am rethinking how best to work it as a freeform game.  I might walk away from the magical academy terminology, move it more toward magic emissaries exchanging knowledge of different magic styles.  That will lessen the need for a codified idea of magical progression.

You could do it "black box" style.

Let the players create the characters through narrative descriptions much like they would if it were freeform.

Then you put together some mechanics behind the scenes, as simple or as complicated as you'd like (and without you having to learn a new system), that make up their character sheet.  Provide the characters with strictly narrative feedback in terms of relating what they can do or what they accomplish when they try something or attempt to overcome an obstacle or challenge.  Track the mechanics behind the scenes so the players never see numbers just story.

You can track advancement through narrative blurbs collected on a "sheet" or compiled into a story or character history or the like, so players have some sense of what their characters are good at or knowledge they possess but aren't trying to min-max or chase that next +1 to this stat or that.

In this way you can get a freeform feel but still have some semblance of rules in place that determine outcomes, advancement, etc.

The downside is it can perhaps be slightly more difficult to get player buy in, and it's more work on your end to keep track and arbitrate certain things if you're going with a more mechanically complicated back end.

that's kind of where I plan on going with it.  Freeform, with a very simple system to keep track of ability.  But I don't think it will even need dice rolls, more just describing the general level of ability at each tier, and telling players when they gain a tier.

Is there a reason you're determined to use D&D? It's not really a good system for what you want to do, and many systems would be better.

I never said I was determined to use D&D.  I actually asked for other systems that may work better, and was given a few ideas.

But like I said in the first post, D&D is the only system I have experience with that has an expansive fantasy magic system.

so if you have alternate ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Are you familiar at all with Fate Core?  Fate Accelerated would fit the bill too ... although I never quite hopped on that train.

I think you'll find that it offers the right balance of crunch vs. narrative freedom that you may be after.  Once you grok how the system works, you won't really ever be at a loss for a system again.  As a system, it is downright elegant in its design, and it lends itself flawlessly to running any sort of game you can possibly imagine.  Once you crack the 'how do I ...?' and the 'what does this dial do?' sort of questions ... I think you'll find that you have a nifty little engine onto which you can drape any tale (of any genre you want).

For the new-system-averse folks who might be lurking out there, the designers have priced it via a pretty nifty 'pay what you want' option (which includes zero).  So you can check it out without sinking any of your hard-earned money into the equation.

Maybe the system from ars magica. The 4th edition is a free download. I've never played it thought.

Magic is split in two parts: techniques and elements. Techniques include things like create, mutate, protect. Elements are like life form, water, fire. The combination of a technique and an element gives the power level to determine the biggest effect possible. But as they are in the same pool (they would all be d&d skills) it's hard to both a master of a combination and have a broad range of effects possible.

 I am familiar with 3.5 which is fine in the context of most people would be familiar with the system and alot with most useful spells.

 Your game idea could work, with the caveat that most of any mechanics would fall back on you to set the pace of learning and practical learning of such skills that would be taught.

If 3.5 has a weakness that i can see is that magic users become too powerful as the levels go up, so making other classes less needed.

 If you work out something and want to give it a shot. I would like to make an effort to be remembered as a possible.

Right now I am really unsure of how to make this work.  I am considering a way of translating into freeform, but I'm also going to take a look at Fate Core.  Ars Magica I am familiar with, but it is a low fantasy setting, so it would require a LOT of adaptation.

if I DID run it in 3.5, it would be a ways off.  But I would require all players to have a magic user class, so the fear of magic users outstripping non-magic users is moot.

As was suggested below, Fate (though not my cup of tea) would work, as would a system like Mutants and Masterminds or my favorite generic crunch-lite do-anything system, a little-known gem called The Window. If you want more crunch you could even look at Mutants and Masterminds 2nd or 3rd edition (3rd has a free SRD) though with M&M start the power levels off low (around 5 or 6) and maybe build a 'spellcaster' template that every character is required to have and gets for no cost.

You could also start with freeform as a base and create your own system. I've seen it done very elegantly here on RPoL before and it works great if you have a head for balance and mechanics design.

that's...what I just said I was going to do.  or at least look into doing.


the big problem is that a game like this sort of begs for crunch.  I want to have a game where characters explore the reaches of magic.  Negotiate with extrapalanar beings, rub elbows with demons and celestials, face magical threats that no other mortal has seen, and explore what it would really mean to be a magic user.

That fits REALLY well into the setting and ideas behind D&D.  but when you make characters that CAN do this sort of thing, the game descends to picking the 'best' array of spells, maximizing your damage, and finding feats that min-max your character.

And it doesn't fit well into a freeform game as is, because, well, there are no limits in freeform.  Nothing feels as impactful.  It means something when a 6th level D&D character meets a pit fiend and has a conversation with it.  There is an inherent understanding of just how powerful this thing that talks to you really is.

In freeform, there's a lot less of a sense of scale and power.  I could try to devise a system to allow for a sense of scale, and I am trying to look into it.  But it's hard to find the right middle ground.

and games like Fate Core, while providing a good framework, don't provide that setting crunch.  I would have to devise it all.  And in those instances, if a player is exploring a homebrew system and meets the dreaded Narthakulagur, he has no idea if he should be afraid of it.  He's never heard of it until ten minutes ago when the GM described it to him.

so I am trying to navigate the best way to mix these contrasting ideas, and find a game that can be as close to what I want as can be, and still be a fun game people will want to play.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 37):

I'd like to second 5e as worth a look.

It is much less crunch happy than 3.5 and so far that I've found on rpol, lends itself to much more RP in games than just moving from crunch/battle to battle. At least that has been what I've seen in games that I've been in so far in 5e. Much more RP going on than in 3.5 games where it's just one line posts and no response.

I think it might be a good middle ground for you personally. It is still the d20 base of 3.5 so the learning curve for you is less steep than other systems, but it still gives you all the familiar names/creatures/structures/etc. from previous D&D editions.

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is a great book for you to explore as there are lots of planar threats in that book.

5e has Backgrounds to help differentiate characters from the get go. Even 5 Human Characters with the "Sage" background and Wizard class are going to have different skills they mastered as a sage and different languages and will likely be different Wizard specialists. It's pretty hard to end up with similar characters in 5e I've found.

I'm in a TBT game with 2 rogues in our party of the same level and they are VERY different from each other because of the Subclass /path they chose.

Have you looked at Ars Magica 5e? It is an incredible system that focuses on magic and wizards.

The default setting is Mythic Europe, but that can changed.

I've looked at it a bit.  I guess it would be just as much work to adapt it to a high fantasy setting, ans it would be to make my own freeform version.

D&D 5e is a surprisingly robust system for one that is at the same time quite simple.  It is easy to modify without disrupting its balance.

For instance you could add an 'academy training' rule to the game, that allows spellcasters to swap out a number of known spells equal to their intelligence bonus for spells of any other class up to a maximum level one lower than their highest level slot.  This would allow you to have a learning and improving kind of wizard like feel to non wizards and would not ignore or punish wizards for already being the more academic class.

I'll take a look at 5e.  Ultimately I have a lot of systems to look over, which will take a while.