The SAGA system is pretty good, but in any system there will be parts you disagree with or simply think could be improved upon.

So this thread is devoted to describing and discussing house rules we use either here on rpol or on a real table.

A few general rules from games I currently/previously run.

Dark Side Atonement:  It costs 3 Force Points to atone and remove a Dark Side Point - I think 1 FP is just too low to reduce the impact of the Dark Side.

Withdraw is now a full-round action, not just a standard action. But being a full-round, you can move up to your full speed instead of half. - It might not be a big thing to most people but our group implemented this one just a few sessions into our first SAGA tabletop game after the jedi just withdrew and charged every round.

Due to the sheer volume of feats and talents now available, I use an alternate method of class benefits. Each level you gain a class talent and class bonus feat, instead of at alternating levels. - this one is only in one of my games and yes it creates powerful characters, but it also gives you expanded options to take some feats/talents you wouldn't normally take given their rarity.

I also use a weekly XP system to combat the progression speed or rpol, usually 100XP a week and sometimes increase it to either 150 or 200 XP once players hit level 10.

I made some house rules for my own games.

FEATS & TALENTS
Normally, you get a new feat at every third level. I've made it so you can choose a feat or a talent at every third level.

Weapon Proficiency grants a +1 bonus when using weapons from the appropriate weapon group, and allow use of the Mechanics skill to modify or repair them. Without proficiency, using a weapon in a particular group gets no bonus on attack rolls (but no penalty for lack of proficiency), and the user's unfamiliarity prevents the use of Mechanics skills to modify or repair the weapon.

MULTICLASSING
Normally, taking a level in a new class gives you one of that class's starting feats as an immediate bonus feat. I also allow you to choose Skill Training in one of that class's class skills.

SKILLS
I condense Climb, Jump and Swim into Athletics. If a class has any of those as a class skill, it has Athletics as a class skill instead.

The Jump application of the Athletics skill works differently than in the core book:

Long Jump: You may leap 2 squares at DC 10, +1 square per +5 DC. Add +5 to the DC without a 4 square running start.
High Jump: You may jump 1 square at DC 10, +1 square per +10 DC. Add +5 DC without a 4 square running start.
Jump Down: You may decrease the damage from a fall by 2 squares at DC 15 and 1 more square per +5 DC.  If you take no damage, you land on your feet.

Trained skills can be chosen from any skill, not just the Class Skills list (except Use the Force, which can only be selected if you have the Force Sensitive feat). Class skills gain your level as a bonus.

Skill checks are like attack rolls, and so skills are treated with the weapons rules rather than the skill rules from SWSE Core. If using a skill untrained, apply a +0 bonus, similar to using a weapon without the appropriate Weapon Proficiency feat. Trained skills add a +1 competence bonus to rolls using the skill, as well as allowing Trained Only applications of skills. When making skill checks, add your training bonus, your level (if a class skill), your ability modifier, and a +1 competence bonus for having the appropriate Skill Focus feat.

This is to balance attacks against Will Defense with attacks against Reflex Defense.

ARMED ADVANTAGE
An unarmed character receives a -2 circumstance penalty to Reflex defense against attacks made with a melee weapon. Characters armed with melee weapons count as unarmed when defending against lightsaber attacks unless armed with a weapon that retains its Damage Reduction against lightsaber damage. This is to reflect that during the normal course of an attack round, defending characters parry, block, and dodge incoming attacks. Without a weapon that can parry incoming attacks, the character can't properly defend against attacks and must rely entirely on dodging. Characters with the Martial Arts feat are considered armed even when wielding no weapons.

TWO WEAPONS
As it stands, there is no difference between wielding two One-Handed weapons or having a Light weapon in the off-hand, even though the book's text describes most Small weapons as being used often as off-hand weapons for dual-wielding fighters. So, to give the short lightsaber, knife, and short sword more of a purpose, here is a rule covering Light weapons.

When wielding two weapons, if the off-hand weapon is considered Light, the fighter gets a +1 dodge bonus to Reflex Defense for each Dual-Weapon Fighting feat possessed. One-handed weapons already have a damage advantage over Light weapons, making this a fair tradeoff. Double-weapons, such as the double-bladed lightsaber and the quarterstaff, also gain this benefit.

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I have more: Weapon ranges, autofire-only weapons, retractable stocks, lightsaber construction, Force and Destiny Points, Dark Side Points, and Force Powers. But I thought this would be more than enough to start. It's kind of a lot already.

I'm noticing a trend in these rules. The first set allows more customization, namely selecting between talents and feats.

The other rules all seem to increase the power level of the character. Skills can now add your full level instead of 1/2, two-weapon fighting gets a defense bonus etc.

I like the lightsaber rules and the rest of them I am at worst indifferent. The one rule you bring up that I question is the weapon proficiency & mechanics relationshp.


This implies that in order to fix or improve a weapon, you have to be proficient in using it in a combat setting which excludes the scientist/engineer style character. I understand where you're going with this, part of being proficient with a weapon could be considered being able to maintain said weapon (clue the media representation of soliders disassembling and reassembling their weapons blind folded).

However there is a large difference between "basic combat maintenance to make sure your gun fires" and engineering skills required to truly fix or improve the weapon.

For example, if you were an expert on firing systems, you might not need to know whether the system is on a pistol, rifle, or heavier weapon. As long as you know the basic physics involved (bigger guns = bigger force) you should be able to improve upon that firing system without being a skilled with said weapon.

Maybe this was your intent and was just left out of the brief description but I would instead recommend that someone proficient in a weapon should be able to use mechanics on the weapon untrained. So even if you're a "dumb grunt" you can fix or modify your weapon (to varying degrees of course). If you're a trained engineer then it doesn't matter what kind of weapon it is.


On that note I've been toying around with the idea of splitting up mechancis but I don't know how to split it up?

Sabotage and Repair seems like two logical steps.
Big stuff (starships, large systems, large engines) vs. small stuff (weapons, armor, small systems, small engines, droids etc.) is another way.

My skill rules don't actually increase the power level of the character. Think of it like this:

Standard Rules
NPC Bob has is a level 5 Soldier with a Wisdom of 10. He has a Will Defense of 15, purely owing from his level. PC Ted is a Level 1 Jedi, with Cha 16 (+3) and Training in Use the Force (+5) and Persuasion (5). That gives him +8 to Use the Force, meaning he can do things like Affect Mind fairly accurately on a target he'd have a hard time hitting with regular attacks. At level 5, that Jedi would have +10 (+2 from half level). Very few targets at a comparable level will have a 20 Will Defense to match that unless they have a 20 Wisdom.

My House Rules
NPC Bob has that Will Defense of 15 still, but let's look at PC Ted. At level 1, he gets a +1 bonus to his class skills (but +0 to his non-class skills), and +1 to Use the Force and Persuasion for skill training. Now he gets a +5 total (including the +3 from Charisma) against the Soldier's 15 Will Defense. A bit more fair. And to coincide with that, weapons work just like skills, meaning you get a +1 for training with the weapon instead of -5 for not having the proficiency. Nobody likes having a bunch of penalties for not having something when you could get a bonus for having a thing instead.

For the weapon proficiencies, I think I've found the root of my intent by running a Star Wars D6 game. In D6, they have Blaster as a skill, which applies to blaster pistols and rifles, and Firearms, which applies to slugthrower pistols and rifles. Maybe rather than Weapon Proficiency: Pistols/Rifles, I should use Weapon Proficiency: Blasters/Slugthrowers. Then it would mean an understanding of how to fire that type of weapon (they operate similarly, but have different mechanisms, kickback, settings, etc), which would also translate to an understanding of how those weapons are put together and how their firing mechanics work. It simply doesn't make sense to differentiate between pistols and rifles when the real difficulty is blaster mechanics vs slugthrower mechanics.

About the Mechanics skill, Sabotage is simply repairing something wrong on purpose, and building a new thing is simply repairing something from scratch (if you want to think of it that way). I really agree that if you choose to split it, go with Personal Scale (weapons, armor, equipment, droids) vs Vehicle Scale (speeders and starships).

Heh. That doesn't even take into account the smart jedi that has skill focus use the force. (My jedi never leave home without it, particularly my human jedi)

So that first level Jedi has +13 to his use the force check. The Force will almost inevitably have a powerful effect on that weakminded soldier.

Even replacing NPC Bob with a Level 5 Noble, let's look at that Will Defense: +5 for level, +2 for being a Noble, and we'll say +2 for Wisdom 14 (with a 16 in Cha which isn't being used for this example). That's 19 Will Defense. If we do take Skill Focus into account (bwahaha), that level 1 Jedi takes 10 for a 23 on Use the Force checks. At level 5, that goes up to 25.

That's not all.

If you're willing to burn a destiny point, and are human with strong in the force as your other feat...

You have a 33 on your check+1d8.

"You...successfully mindtrick Emperor Palpatine...WTF?!!?!?!"

Has anyone come up with anything for starship combat? Specifically to keep it from requiring such a specialized character in order to just survive a few rounds? The way it is, the Ace prestige class almost seems required just to be a pilot, let alone an actual ace. I suppose what I'm looking for is something in the way of a character having more to do with their ship than just a tiny  and useless defence for having a high Pilot skill.

Pretty much there will be no pilots, given that starships are forbidden in the first place.  There's little incentive to make a pilot when you won't have a ship to fly.

If you're interested beyond this forum's games, take a look at my pilot's handbook above and grab the Aqua options.  A lot of it's since been invalidated by our local houserules but for other games. . .

Take Vehicular Combat and get trained in Pilot.  Obtain at least one Starship Tactics and choose Attack Formation Zeta Nine.  If you have enough wisdom for further maneuvers pick up a couple of shield hits and possibly Target Lock.   For the cost of two feats and a single trained skill you're now a decent pilot who can hold their own in a fight against enemies who aren't aces themselves.  Buy a jetpack to put your pilot skill to use on the ground.  If you want to go whole-hog you can get skill Focus: Pilot but it's not absolutely needed for a non-ace.

If you want to go further, and have enough credits and it fits the game, buy an AT-XT for ground combat and your pilot skills will now operate during ground combat.  If you're playing a soldier, consider taking heavy weapons proficiency and talents that boost your heavy weapon damage. If your GM tries to put you in an absolute crap ship like a Dynamic Freighter or Ghtroc, beg for something cheaper but vastly better like a Vaya Scout.

Hmmm... I suppose it does come down to a severe lack of feats and talent slots available to an 'average' character. Starship combat is an essential part of Star Wars to me (appears in every movie) and should be as common as basic cars or horses in any other game setting.

Yeah, that's why it's valuable to get stuff that a pilot can also use on the ground, Vehicular Combat works in any vehicle so grab a ground vehicle too, and airspeeder if you can find one (you can't, I've tried).  Heavy Weapons are good on the ground too and your weapon specialization will be active all the time instead of just in space.

But yeah, I find a lot of my interest gone if ships and piloting are off the table as well.

The biggest issue comes in the way of Jedi that, according to every bit of media, are suppusedly all expert pilots (even Obi Wan, who apparently hated flying) but have even more talents and feats that have to be crammed into their regular slots. Trying to get players to bother with any starship abilities is toughest of all.

Well, you could always just use Anakin Skywalker's writeup as an example for how to make a Jedi that can fly.

Just copy his stats and talents and feats down, tit for tat, and boom, flying jedi.

It's more an issue that Jedi are the best at everything in the movies.  Stealth? Jedi.  Bluff? Jedi. Combat? Jedi, maybe you have to go Sith at ranged.  Trade Route Taxation Negotiations?  Send a Jedi, not a diplomat.  Leading Armies?  Jedi.  Healing? Jedi (and definitely not medical droids, dying of a broken heart indeed!).

Game balance, particularly when not all players are going to want to carry the glowstick of doom, requires that non-jedi sometimes be good at things too.  I'm comfortable with Jedi not being so omnicapable, although notable Jedi are still better at just about everything than anybody else in the game.

As for using Anakin's writeup, probably not a good idea.  Not only is it too high a level for any game I've seen on RPoL (14), he's an incompetent pilot in his statblock with no maneuvers, and only one feat and two talents related to piloting.  Anybody using the partial build I suggested above would beat him at the same level without force powers.  I'd expect a dedicated pilot I built to take him in starship combat at around level 8 to 10 (though he'd eat such a pilot on the ground).