Jedi are also highly MAD. The default array (15.14,13,12,10,8) forces a Jedi to 'dump' a stat...and his choices there are con or int. Most pick Int, and then the jedi with few skills gets even less of them, and has to be RPed as 'not too bright' besides.

By contrast, let's look at the Feature Characters out of the book...

Darth Vader:
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Obi Wan Kenobi:
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15
Padme Amidala
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 18
Luke Skywalker (Ep 6)
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Leia Organa (Ep 6)
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 16
Han Solo
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14


Lucas Characters seem to be based on '14s across the board, + some level up bonuses'

As such, a 'Lucas' Point buy is actually about 36 points. And you wonder why poor little 25 point buy characters just don't seem to match up to movies.

Note that MAD is a result of the Jedi concept (specifically, that the Jedi needs to be both force wizard and lightsaber-weilding beatstick in one package), not the Jedi class.  "Pure" Jedi are actually slightly less MAD than Jedi who are built using Nobles or Scouts with Force Sensitivity.  The reason is, Jedi can afford to dump dex more than other classes, as their Deflect and Block talents (which, unlike force talents, are Jedi only) help protect them so they can live with a lower dex score than the Noble Jedi who needs to keep up that reflex save to stay alive.

And yeah, I'm perpetually irritated by how the canon characters invariably get outrageous bonuses and gear players aren't allowed to have.  If I'm playing Star Wars, I wanna be Han Solo.  Or Maybe Artoo.  Not Randon Stormtrooper #45, or the mouse droid they met on the Death Star.

And if you wanna be Han Solo, your GM needs to give you a 36 point buy to stay even with the 'Lucas Point Buy.'

In the Star Wars Epic, I consider the 25 point buy to be effectively equivalent to a mook. "You're random Stormtrooper #28 in a Lucas Film, make the best of it." 'Or, "You're a not particularly gifted jedi in the Temple wearing a red robe when Order 66 comes around. Make the best of it."

Also, I disagree about Jedi dumping Dex. Note that for almost all the features, their dex is 16, flat out. (By contrast, I always thought the Jedi would feature Wis or Cha as their highest stat. How wrong I am! You'd think Anakin, as the 'Chosen One' would have a Charisma Score of something like 23 before he got maimed.)
This message was last edited by the player at 04:43, Mon 07 Oct 2013.

Yes, that default stat array or using only 25 point buy makes for some pretty meh characters.  It's hard to be epic without real epic stats.  I wouldn't compare them to a mook though.  Mook npcs have lower stats than that.  And Starting Credits are pretty weak also.

This is why I've never seen a game where the GM did that for stats.  They're always giving more points for stats generation.  And often they will give more credits for equipment.  But the ships they seem to like having control over.  They never give the characters a ship as great as the Millenium Falcon.  Got to give the characters something to aspire to, I guess.

This is why I have recently started a new slew of solo adventures.  I'm trying to do things no other GM has done before.  From actually using the Basic Stat Array.  Okay, I later give players the option of buying up their stats using Credits so that they're given the choice between having good stats or good equipment.  I then am giving them a ship and a droid.  Got a request?  I just grant it.  I am trying to break myself of being a total control freak by giving a lot of the power to the players to create their own character and do their own thing.  I'm also actually using the Destiny Rules.  I mean besides just spending points to save their bacon.  I mean insisting they take achievable Destinies, play those out as a single adventure, and give rewards for completing their Destiny.

I meant mechanically, if you're building a jedi yourself and take deflect/block, you can afford to dump dex without compromising defense.  Lucas-made canon characters don't generally have dump stats, as you've pointed out.

My guess is that the title of "Chosen One" is earned by breaking the rules.  GM Lucus must have really liked that player by letting such a blatant breaking of the rules slide.

GM Lucus was running a high power game. Obi-wan's stats aren't THAT much worse then Vader's. And the worseness can be explained by Vader being so darn high level. And Luke's about on par with Obi Wan.

It sounds like that GM Lucus is a munchkin powergamer.  I certainly don't want to play in any of his games.  I like my challenges to actually feel challenging.  It's not wonder Anakin was so arrogant.  It's like the GM didn't want him to fail and he knew it.  At the same time, he must have been played by someone like me who would get tired of always succeeding and in the end do something to fail intentionally, especially when it comes to defying a prophecy.

If I ever get around to it, maybe I'll compile a list of what 'point buy' the average for 'GM Lucus' is across all books. My current guess is that 36 will turn out to be the average, but I wonder if other books will adjust it up or down.

We need to remember that GM Lucas cheated and used magic items in his epic. Look at the way that Anakin was acted... Cha of 8 tops. Then he gets a magic suit of armour that gives him a wicked bonus +15 bonus and an additional +5 to intimidate.

In fact, I'm starting to think that Black is a magic colour in Star Wars Movies. At least for Skywalkers. Anakin and Luke were both non-likable (whiny) characters until they started wearing black. Anakin was still a whiny female dog in episode three so they encased him in black. Bam! Suddenly he's cool for Episode IV.

Actually Charisma is described in the Core Rules as "... measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.  It represents actual strength of personality and force of presence, not merely how others perceive you in a social setting."  The fact that Anakin is "whiny" is just a character flaw.  So he has the maturity of an 8 year-old?  I have met quite a few whiny people who can be annoyingly persuasive so that they always get their way.  Anakin is really played as having a high charisma.  He's a natural leader, attractive, self-confident, persuasive, and makes Padme's nipples stand on end just standing in the same room with her.  Being whiny is just an unfortunate side effect of almost always getting your way that comes from having a high charisma.  In short, people don't have to be likeable to have a noticeable presence.

Technically, I think the magic item he got was 'James Earl Jones as a voice actor.'

I remember playing a DnD campaign where one of the PC's was a sorceress with cha 20+ and the attitude of a female dog. I was doing an event summary and made an off hand remark about her being amazingly attractive. The player then pipes up and says, "how do you know that she's that good looking? I've never described her features." My reply, "I know what your stats are and Cha is a combo of looks and attitude. Your attitude sucks so you must be dang hot."

Hahahahaha.

I remember a game where somebody Playing an Aasimar Paladin was at a gaming table. One person said, "How the hell does HE have a charisma of 20?" Another player said, "Not his looks." Another said, "Not his personality." The GM said, "Write it off to his 'otherworldliness.'"

Hmm, I did a parody of that in a comedy game once.  Very high charisma character who was surly, had trouble speaking in full sentences, and was hideously ugly.  The charisma factor?  Extremely pleasant body odor.

Extremely pleasant body odor?  That must explain the +2 Charisma bonus for Falleen.  Because otherwise they have a face like a Human mated with an alligator.

Let it not be said though that a pleasant body odor isn't a turn on.  For otherwise plain or ugly people, their body odor would be the deciding factor.  Hence why some nerds get laid and others never.

Just catching up on this thread. I recently came upon The Jedi Path book that talks about the various Force Skills, claiming that Control is first learned as an Initiate (first level), Sense as a Padawan (Sometime between 2nd and sixth), and doesn't begin learning Alter until they've graduated into Knighthood.

Maybe combining the basic lightsaber talents would solve some issues? Combining Block with Lightsaber Proficiency and Deflect/Redirect with each other?

Or you just say that Block/Deflect is just part of the Lightsaber Proficiency Feat and that you have to be trained in Use The Force to do it.  And then any Force Sensitive character can learn it by taking the Lightsaber Proficiency Feat and learning the Use the Force skill.

Any way you do it, I suppose the West End Games system handled creating Jedi best.  Personally, I am more fond of the D20 Revised Star Wars for when it comes to making Jedi.  The only problem I have with it is the Vitality hit point system where using Force skills costs you Vitality.  So in effect, the more you use the Force powers, the more easily you are killed.  So just make the use of your Force skills count.  And that leads to some pretty nasty min-maxing.  But then again, the skill min-maxing was something of an all around problem with that game system.

Has anyone tried doing away with Hit Points altogether, and use Damage Threshold as a resistance roll?

This concept intrigues me. Please elaborate further.

It would be like going back to the WEG version, where you just use the condition tree for damage. D20 + Damage Threshold versus damage? This is not a completely thought out idea, but I was curious if anyone else had tried it. I simply find that a sufficiently high HP character suddenly scoffs at E-Webs and the like.

Or being that schmuck who goes down after getting shot once by a pistol because you made a crappy resistance roll.

It happens. Some Feats would undoubtedly have to be changed to compensate.

Some?  Yes, there are only so many Feats that deal with damage and staying alive.  Still, changing the whole system for "staying alive" is a major change to the fundemental rules of a game.  You can hardly call it D20 Rules anymore.  It would now have a major difference from D&D.  D20 without Hit Points isn't D20 anymore.  It's just another game system that uses a d20 die a lot.  It might as well be Torg.