Along those same lines...

Don't make an issue out of it when it's not even an issue yet.  They've been talking about subscriptions for a decade, trying to work out what would be most effective and least invasive, and after all that time, it's still in the 'we're working on our best option' stage.

Yes, when it happens, it's going to cause some changes...but sweating bullets over it now is somewhat akin to having a nervous breakdown because you heard that you will, in fact, die one day.  It's out there, sometime in the future...the subscription issue, you actually probably have marginally more control over, as you can read up on everything they've discussed and worked out thus far and weigh in with suggestions of your own (of course, you can also eat a healthier diet, get exercise and adequate rest, and get routine medical check-ups to try and extend your life a bit...)

But in the end, pitching a fit about it now won't do anything to alter the end result, it will just put you in a funk about it now.  I, like many others, am on very limited funds...if subscriptions were instituted tomorrow, I'd probably have to drop out of at least a couple of games because I couldn't afford even a one-off $20 payment, at the moment.  That doesn't mean that, when they finally get the bugs worked out and start subscriptions, I'll still be working two jobs just to keep my bills paid and freelancing anywhere that will pay me to try and get a little ahead...I might actually have a better job at that point, or have gotten a raise...there's a whole pile of circumstances that could change my ability to pay for subscriptions.

Worry about problems that actually NEED to be dealt with...jase isn't going to spring this on us overnight, you'll have plenty of time to work out whether or not you can deal with the subscription issue when the issue is actually clearly identified and not some nebulous 'we're not sure what it is, but it's coming...sometime' point somewhere on the horizon.

Jase, after your post I just wanted to chime in and say how much I appreciate this site and the way it is run. I am sure 99.9% of the members feel the same way. Please don't let the few bad apples questioning your motives get you down.

Hear, hear, WinterRat1, hear, hear.

And, jase, it is a vanishingly small minority of the many Rpol members who are expressing vociferous concern over the subscriptions. The vast majority of us understand your reasoning and that change comes to all things. Most of us even agree that this change will be for the better. Thank you.

 This is my last post on this topic, but sticks and stones, as the old saying goes. I wish everyone  blessed and good day.

As someone who has used RPoL for several years and who has donated regularly and willingly over that time, I first want to say thanks to Jase and all the mods for their efforts. I have been happy to donate to something that I find valuable, enjoyable and free. I will continue to support the site with my hard-earned dollars as long as I am using the site. In my opinion, it is the best way to show my gratitude for the service that RPoL provides to RPGers.

The idea of perks for donations on a subscription model sounds like a fine idea. Still, the fact that this service exists is the only perk that really matters.

That reminds me, it is time for my annual donation . . .

I realise this can be quite a contentious and polarising issue for our members.  Just like I don't want people agreeing with me for the sake of it, neither is it constructive for those who are fearful of change to predict doom and gloom with no practical input.

I do, however, greatly appreciate the constructive input that both sides of the fence provide.  Those who recognise the change for what it is (thank you all, I did briefly forget about you) and those who have reservations, which is natural enough.  I even have reservations about it, but alas we don't live in a perfect society and something had to change, and that's the unfortunate reality that we have to keep in mind.

When this was proposed (what, wait, how long ago?) there was a lot of feedback (and backlash), some of it with merit.  We revised not only the proposed solution but the way the site worked as a result of the feedback.



Quite the contraire.  Come up with a better solution and I'll be amongst the first to thank you.  But until a better solution is uncovered the current solution is therefore the best one available.  Far from perfect, I agree, but the best solution we currently have.



Time, effort and (most importantly) I do not have a clue as to how to go about it.

 I have only been on here perhaps a year, so I admit to not reading all the treads on this topic. My comments where made out of deep frustration and anger from another matter. I came on line, read about this and it was the final straw in  a really, really bad day. So I knee jerked a couple of times on here. While I don't like what is coming down, I went about expressing my opinion badly. So again, apologies to anyone that felt insulted. But on another matter, I have apologized twice now, once in this forum, and again in  a private mail to you. So, please stop using snippets of my posts in any future posts you might make. Thank you for your time.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:33, Wed 30 July 2014.

Plus it would probably cost us money for the rights to sell them.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 64):

And a good portion of them do exclusive distributor deals.  Many require that you deal with different distributors for distributing in different countries and/or languages.

Doing an online shop of that sort is a full time job -- managing various distributor and publisher relationships and staying on top of what's coming out and promoting, doing customer support because something invariably goes wrong, paying for the servers and bandwidth to deliver purchases ... and I'd think the chance of our prices being competitive with existing online stores in the same space would be low.  And ... we all already have jobs :-\
This message was last edited by the user at 15:21, Wed 30 July 2014.

Well, you guys could always sell autographed pictures of bbr.  =)

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 64):

The only practical, revenue-generating idea would be to have banner advertising from directly relevant advertisers, such as WOTC, drivethrurpg.com, Games Workshop, etc.

But then this goes back to the whole issue of advertising on the site (puts lid firmly back on that ole can of worms).

I can't speak in this case for jase's reasons for not wanting ads.  I can tell you mine.

Ads don't pay that much, unless they are numerous and invasive to the degree of permitting the tracking of users across the site the and harvesting of data about users.

Without having a person employed to sell ads specifically, you're left with fairly generic options and while you can select the rating and topics of those ads, the experiences with sites I've seen is that those are guesswork at best, and the site has to constantly "report" sneaky ads doing malicious things, or lying about their content so that their NSFW materials get splashed all over sites that request safe-rated ads and the like.

A lot of on-site real estate has to be handed over to ads (not just one tiny portion per page), and then to actually start making any kind of money on them, you have to show as many ads as possible.  This is usually done by creating extra pages the user has to click through to get where they want to go, and generally getting behind Really Bad Navigation to make sure each person sees as many ads as possible on their trip from A to B.

Then users, sick of that, start using ad blockers.  Then the site, to maintain revenue, has to work around ad blockers.  Then the users get better ad blockers.  Then the site gets more invasive ads ... it's a horrible cold-war like face off.

Now one possible solution is like Youtube does, eh?  To force people to watch a 24-second video before they can read a thread.  But I'd stop using a site that did that.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 68):

That sounds pretty horrible... :(

I thought the main issue here was trying to validate that users are 18+. If money is an issue, then I believe everyone should pay. I completely understand the want to keep the Adult games clear of minors, but there will always he ways for them to get around your blocks. Paying included. The main problem I see here for the site more than anything is that users who enjoy Adult games believe the sexual content is more than just that. It's an integral part of the story and offers character development that many find integral to their characters when exploring not only mature themes but also exploring sexuality, est. Many of the people I've talked to have expressed that shifting games to mature settings then having to engage in scenes separately on either a ERP site, or take the time to sit down and instant message makes them not want to do this at all. Thus a chunk of their experience in the game, for that character and the site is diminished.

The reason I bring this up is because adult themes in a game to many should be a choice, and picking out one demographic of players in the site not only makes them more likely to lash against it, but also starts a sentiment of unfairness. As if they are being judged for liking certain elements in their games they find important to them.

I don't know the answer to this problem, and I understand the want to monitor minors as well as find ways to finance the site, but signaling out   Adult game players is not only not fair but also asking for people to react poorly to this change whatever is instigated as they feel they are being signaled out.

If I believe my character's sexuality is integral to their character, but I have to pay in order to explore that whilst someone else who doesn't enjoy those themes don't, yes, I would find that unfair. This is at least a concern I have seen expressed and feel needs to be heard and contemplated upon. It's not as simple as "pay for the privilege to have sex", it's about the themes Adult games bring to the table and how they are being targeted by being subscription accessible only.

I wanted to start by saying that I love this site, as well as the moderators who run it. You guys have been doing and are continuing to do an outstanding job. I've met some great people here and developed wonderful relationships; this is and always has been a play I can just come to and lose myself in. So for that, I thank you, all the moderators as well as the users that I've interacted with.



Eloquent and I agree. But as it currently stands, would this then not be the few paying for society as a whole? The users paying the subscription fee, even if only the once in order to gain life-time adult access, would in turn be paying for the site as a whole. Personally, an I may be alone on this branch here, but I feel as if you want to implement a cost then you should implement it for everyone and not just a portion (whether it's a majority or minority percentage) of your user base.  Everyone should pay or no-one should - it's not like the money I spend here would only go to me. No, it would likely go to cover server costs and other things free users would have access to.

There are many sites that are free and have adult content, some larger than RPoL and others smaller. So obviously there is a way to do it. Yeah, most of them run off donations or have ads or some combination of something that helps them make money, agreed. But when you say "Provide other potential solutions" and users do provide them, even if they are solutions you don't like (ads for example) isn't that then a revenue worth investigating further? Like seeing what your user base would prefer?

A shop (whether some companion thing or personal and unique merchandise), ads, 'facebook games'. Okay I apologize profusely for that last suggestion. I'm pretty sure no-one wants candy crush.




Have you stopped using YouTube, Facebook and many other sites that stream video's/offer ads? I'm not attacking, so I apologize if this context seems hostile. I'm curious. Because if you have stopped using them, you may have stopped (as it sounds) when these things were inconvenient and annoying and you may not know that now, many of these sites now have ads along side banners that are hardly noticeable now and the vast majority of ones that try and make me watch a video (YouTube, network sites that stream shows) now have a 'click to skip' feature after five or so seconds of the video playing.

Again, not an attack, I only ask because if you had stopped using them you may not have noticed that they're a lot less invasive and if you haven't stopped using any of the above sites or other sites I may have not mentioned which use any of the above alternative revenue streams (a single one or some combination) - like Reddit - then why would you stop using RPoL?

I don't see Credit Cards or PayPal as a legitimate way to verify someones age or even identity.  That's not saying any of you do, you used the descriptor 'rudimentary method' so you obviously know how crude it is. Because a child could certainly gain access to a PayPal account or Credit Card just like there are many adults who can't. The problem I have here is, if even you don't think it's much better than the honour system in regards to verifying age. Why get so adamant that that's going to be one of the fundamental purposes of it? Though perhaps that's MY personal hangup, I just can't understand implementing a system for something when you don't think the system is good or secure.

But that also ties in with my belief that if some people are going to be paying, shouldn't everyone?

Also, one problem I see:



So, let's say that theoretically everyone pays this and then cancels their subscription.  Sure you will have a sudden and massive cash influx, but if no-one subscribes after that point, the site would revert to what it is now, running on your time and effort and depending on donations. So why wouldn't this become a problem again in the future?

I gather that the above scenario goes from 'best case' to 'worst case' without any leeway, which isn't likely to happen. But it also doesn't factor in people potentially leaving the site or just deciding to play Mature and PG games. The latter of which would once again revert the site to your dime/time and dependent on donations.  Realistically, you'll have some combination where some people pay, some don't, some leave, some new people join and some revert to just playing PG/Mature games.

But when then do your policing problems travel over to mature games? The adult users who don't want to pay suddenly flood the site with mature games and all of them start pushing the line and limit. How much description is too much, etc...

Also, the people who pay the subscription, even if it's  just once and they get a 'life time access'. I can't imagine you wont get some idiot trying to argue that since they've paid you (once, or subscription basis) they should now be able to write and do whatever they want and treat this site like their sandbox. (I hope this aspect isn't true but my faith in humanity is not unwaivering)

The above ramble could likely be boiled down to: "I can't see a 'one-time fee' resolving any issue. I think that we'll wind up right back here."


I want to apologize for any perceived hostility or condescension that you may have picked up. I've been told that I can project this without even intending to and I want you to know that it sincerely wasn't my intent.

I left this site at one point, over ten years ago when this conversation first came up. Another time I took a hiatus for personal reasons and drama. Both times I returned though, because as I stated above, this site has become something I love and value, as are many of the connections I've made while here. So thank you all for that.

I want to end this by quoting another person in this thread who I think hit true, because despite any reservations I may have, whether or not I voiced them above, I truly do agree with this person and believe what they said:

I find it almost perfect how the last thread seemed to come right after mine. Same issue of signaling out one group. I completely agree. As for options, I think as far as cost goes, it may be as simple as making subscription benefits especially rewarding. Perhaps including a personal portrait gallery they could upload a maximum number to, increasing the sketchpad word count, customization est. I know of course it would be extra work, or difficult to figure out what would be included in the package to make the pot sweet enough, but I know personally that I would purchase a subscription if I know it benefits me, doesn't go to the free rides of others, or make me feel signaled out for my tastes or ambitions.

rpol could always integrate with face book if it is utterly nessisary to monitor minors as it would be far more difficult to fool through an external social site. Rpol nation, infrno and others all go this route, and you can select to make sure no games (of adult content) are posted on time lines est. It seems more secure then the payment as minors could simply borrow money from mom and dad or kids like me who have used online pay pal est since I was 15. These are just ideas and I don't personally know the inner workings if the site enough to claim they would solve everything. But options like this would at least not cut your site into demographics nor cause the issues the above thread have stated. I adore this site and am willing to support it if it comes to it, even on a collage student salary of nada. But I do not want to feel forced nor inconvenienced because of my role play choices or the games I want to engage in, force my players to pay  for my game or completely rework the game itself to keep it free.

If I am to support this site I love I want to do it because of I love it and want to enhance my experience. Not feel as though I have to work around a system that discriminates against me or my players.

Actually, it's even easier to fool a social network than a credit card company:  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06...ewanted=all&_r=0

Mad Mick, they are referring to the pay by credit cards that are now in walmart, I have had one, they don't ask for your social, they also don't require age verification for those. So ergo, there are ways around this for minors.

Perhaps, but it's only an idea. The point is that no matter what is done, there will be a way around it. The internet has always been a playground with loopholes everywhere. A minor could borrow a card under their parents, have set up a pay pal, est, which depending on how subscription goes may be required anyways. Who knows. Most young adults have some form of social media account with facebook, tumblr est all being integrated into sites all over the net. This means either someone finds it more convenient to simply link all accounts they have to that one social site, OR they have to go through the trouble of making a fake one and then integrate it into all those sites. This means they've already found away around countless site's age blocks. Deviant art and others all have filters but are easily bypassed even with a subscription. Then you get Tumblr, and general porn sites which are either not filtered at all or can be washed away with the lying click of a 18+ button. And those places hardly have the strict graphic material rules Rpol does. I know that keeping minors away from graphic written material is to not only protect them but also the site. However, it's a battle the internet and most likely rpol will never win. If a minor can watch porn, it's a good chance they'll find a way to play an adult game where there may be some graphic violence or sex written. Same as if they went to a book store. So my inclination is that it's to primarily protect the site's code of conduct. So signaling out one demographic and basically making them pay in part to fight a loosing battle is disheartening.

 I know there are other reasons of course like site maintenance, but then shouldn't that be the responsibility of all players? And of course keeping as many minors from adult material is important, as well as the fact Adult games have stricter rules so they must be enforced. But all games have rules and those rules are partially there to protect minors, the site and general players. Like I said, I don't know the answers to this issue, nor think the suggestions I made are the best or feasible as I don't know each detail of the site. But I do know there are kinks in the current plan and they should be discussed so that as a site we can find the best possible outcome and keep this place a wonderful role play experience for everyone.

Players in adult games cause the mods more work than any other demographic.
Yes, it's not all players in all adult games, but the reason that demographic is being singled out it because they require a lot of extra work.
That the mods do this instead of removing the demographic and avoiding the extra work it introduces is, as far as I'm concerned, going above and beyond. They deserve a big thank you for it.
Thank you, mods!

If there are players who want adult content in any form, can't play without it, and won't pay for subscriptions if they are introduced then, maybe, instead of complaining about a possible future they should be saying thank you for the excellent service they currently receive.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:36, Wed 30 July 2014.

If a complaint, any complaint is a valid representation of a portion of a userbase, it should be heard and acknowledged, and it should continue being so heard and acknowledged until the eventuality that the issue is decided on with finality.

For pity's sake, people, it's 'singled' out not 'signaled' out.

And its 'etc.' short for the Latin et cetera, not 'ect' or 'est.'

Adult games are currently a right to anyone of legal viewing age. To add a cost to them would currently affect primarily those who play them, but everyone else as well. There are some people who prefer those games because it allows freedom to express certain themes, but everyone can join an adult game when the mood fancies them. If a game someone wanted to play was adult, a really awesome game with thought out lore and worlds and all that, but the GM wants to give the players an option to feel out adult themes, someone who usually did not play adult games or would usually go in with the intention of not engaging in adult content themselves would have to pay. I think it's also a matter of general player privilege. If money must be made on the site, why not make that required to all so that all games remain open to everyone, OR make it related to something not pertaining to the choice players have in games. The benefits of the subscription, I personally think, would be better served relating to adding bells and whistles to the current layout of the site. That way, no one is taken away the choice of their preferred games, no one feels they are being treated unfairly because other players get to play the games they want for free, and the mission statement of this site being the playing of games isn't compromised. I feel people may respond kinder to that sort of change rather than trying to talk people into giving up a core option in their experience on this site. It pertains to everyone, and I think now that explaining the Adult game users as a group separate to everyone else wasn't the best word choice.

Again, these are my opinions and just some suggestions. But I do think that more issue would be made and more problems could be caused for the site if things are done this way. People are upset and unsure, and that directly affects every player on rpol, because it takes away possible players, GMs, and even donators and possible subscribers. We as a whole community, if we really wish to talk about thanking the mods for their hard work, should sort out this problem and be a part of the end result as a community. Thus any changes to the site are done between all participants in the games here.

I hardly doubt every issue on this site that requires maintenance and financing is adult game specific. For every issue in an adult game, there are issues in other games as well. Should those with the possible larger number of issues shoulder the finances of  the other games or finances not pertaining to adult games specifically? This is food for thought, and things I feel and hopefully others feel should be heard and at least considered. I understand the position the mods are in is difficult, but part of being a mod is feeding off the input of the community. I think that they will understand why others and I have taken the time to speak up about what we feel should be listened to. I also hope no one perceives this as an attack or a demand. Just some concerns by a fellow player.

Adult games are not a right for anyone on this site.

That's a word that gets bandied around a lot without people understanding its meaning or its application.

Actually, they aren't.  They're a privilege, not a right.  A privilege which can be removed from any user, at any time, regardless of whether or not they meet external legal requirements.
This message had punctuation tweaked by the user at 20:23, Wed 30 July 2014.