In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 230):

I posted because even a moderator didn't seem to think people like us are on the site. It's not to say 'poor me' or trying to avoid the subscription. I'd just like to know that they'll at least factor us in when they make the final decision. They should know some just aren't going to subscribe, even though they might have otherwise done so if they actually did have the money. I don't know how many are like me, but I have to figure that some are here for the 'free' part because that's how much they can pay.

So I don't see this as "completely gone off the rails". Knowing people aren't going to subscribe seem right on point for a thread on subscriptions.

Morgan Coldsoul: That would be awesome but I don't know how that'd work with something like a creditcard age check. Part of the point is to make sure adults sections only have adults in them.

If gifting for GMs to continue running adult games were implemented, I'd see no problem with subscriptions.

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 232):

No, you're right; that's why I said "at some level." It might not work to universally satisfy the gatekeeping practices for age requirements, but it could at least allow some users to enjoy subscription perks who otherwise might not be able to, even if those don't include adult access.

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 232):

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree with the need to make the fact known, I was just worried that the back and forth about "yes you can", "no I can't" would derail the thread from constructive to...well you've probably seen where threads like that can lead. I was merely stating that as part of your concern with not being able to afford a sub, suggest what you might think to be a reasonable solution that would allow you to participate equally.

Morgan's suggestion, for example, is something I know I've personally vetted for in the past for my players who might not be able to afford it, and would give you a chance to participate in subscription-only games even if your budget doesn't allow you to contribute yourself. Just something like that :)

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 233):

With gifting and the 'lifetime' adult access for payment at startup and I might be able to swing it. I'd be uncomfortable with having someone pay for a continuing thing, a one time thing is easier to do.

Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 234):

Yeah, if it could work, I think they'd find a significant bump in subscriptions. But I think it'd have to work for adult access somehow, unless the perks are truly awesome.

Visceri22 (msg # 235):

That's cool. I seem to have gotten the point across so I most likely don't have to continue it.

In reply to Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 231):

Part of the point of subscriptions is to prevent minors from accessing the Adult section of the site. The ability of "gift" subscriptions would undermind the whole point of that for the simple fact that you could give a minor access to the Adult section of the site.

elecgraystone and I seem to be on the same page.

I have suggested a few other options and it always seems to steer right back to "It's only going to be a little money, no big deal." line of thought by a majority.  Some of the things I've mentioned weren't even looked at.  At least no one said that "X won't work because of Y".

@ universeman

A credit card or paypal account is about as certain as how things operate now.  You have people that are adults that don't have them and minors that do.  If the fee is for a third party service that does the determination, then someone paying for you would work.

In reply to universeman (msg # 237):

In which case you, as the cardholder, have either knowingly committed fraud, making it your responsibility once it's discovered (at which point you can be banned from the site, as for any other form of fraud or adult ToS violation), or have accidentally (and foolishly) made yourself an accessory to fraud. Either way, that is your own problem, not RPoL's.

Using credit cards to gate for age isn't foolproof, anyway. The easiest way to punch a hole in that has already been mentioned: I can loan anyone my card, if I trust them or am foolish enough, and allow them to use it to make the subscription purchase. There's no difference between that particular vulnerability and someone picking up a prepaid card, etc., in terms of the sheer effectiveness of the process RPoL is trying to institute...except that users who buy "gift subscriptions" are actually more responsible for any violations than the site is, which might actually help to further protect the site, in a small way. People tend to be careful with their financial information.

Now, I'm no finance law or legalese expert; I could totally be wrong about the liability part of it, and if someone knows better, please do correct me. But common sense (often not synonymous with law, I admit) seems to dictate that an adult buying a minor an adult access subscription would constitute a crime on the part of the buyer, not on the part of the site and its staff.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:26, Mon 04 Aug 2014.

Plus that doesn't even get into prepaid cards that you can pick up in Walmart.

you guys are still arguing around the issue.  it isn't a question of effectiveness, it's a question of acceptability.  credit card checks are accepted as a way of verifying age.  So unless someone can find a more effective way of doing it that doesn't require even more work and money from jase and the others, then credit cards may ultimately have to be where the site goes.

I don't think there have been many ideas that have been dismissed.  This conversation has been going on for 10 years, so I think quite a few ideas have been put forward and checked by the site.  Just because they aren't responding doesn't mean they haven't looked into them.

I believe I endorsed the idea of credit cards in my suggestion, albeit with the acknowledgment that they are, as already discussed, not foolproof. That is the point: Allowing gift subscriptions would solve a handful of problems, make the idea more attractive, still utilize credit cards as a gatekeeping system, and make users who bought gift subscriptions more liable for any potential fraud than the site is. Once again, I could be mistaken on that last point, but I believe that's how it goes.

So, are credit cards perfect? No. But this might be a way they could be employed alongside standard or regular subscription options, as already put forth by the staff, to create more and possibly better options as part of the whole package.

I'm similar. Not quite uncomfortable with someone doing a continual gift. Depends on price and interval really. If a person could be paid up for a year, I'd be comfortable with that gift. If they decided on a one time charge, I'd be comfortable with that gift too. Others have mentioned credit cards/prepaid cards. Assuming debit cards amount to the same thing as a credit card, I'd not object to that either.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 243):

Hey, it could be a relatively inexpensive and very meaningful holiday or birthday gift, right? I get enough use out of RPoL that it's important to me, and it's possibly among the only fulfilling entertainment and interaction some people might have. A $20 or $30 per year subscription would be better than a lot of other gifts, and affordable, to boot. I think I could actually get kind of excited about the ability to genuinely do something meaningful for good RPoL friends who live far off, etc.

In reply to Morgan Coldsoul (msg # 239):

While legally speaking there really wouldn't be any type charges filed for fraud, it is the english definition of the word fraud. However, that is neither here nor there.

As far credit cards and use of paypal is concerned,  yes said minor could get access without actually owning one. Though this would generally come from a parent or guardian who would knowingly give them access to their card or paypal account. Now if they don't give them access, and the minor knowingly takes from said parent or guardian then it is up to the parent or guardian to punish them. Under those circumstances it is the parents or guardians responsibility to know what the minor is up to.

Once again they have talking about this for nearly ten years, and while nothing is full proof, I think they have a general understanding what they are doing. However, I believe that gifting a subscription would be a mistake considering that the gifting can either knowingly or unknowingly gift a minor a subscription thus undermining the whole point of subscriptions.

When ever thread concerning subscriptions is started they eventually devolve into this doom and gloom about some people can't pay for the subscription and thus won't have access to Adult games. They think it is just going to be a switch the Jase flips on and suddenly they won't have access to Adult games. In reality I'm pretty sure that Jase will give everyone fair warning and chance to either subscribe or remove all adult material from their so they can change it to mature or general.

It would be difficult for me to even swing a yearly, but on occasion, I might be able to handle it, so to me, that totally seems equitable, and meaningful.

While I am all for the idea of 'gifted' subscriptions, I certainly am against any that renew.  Even upon request.  Too many potential issues with that.

Also transferred liability is an iffy thing.  In many states if you know, or even suspect that a restricted product is to be sold or transferred to a minor, no liability is transferred.  Both the seller AND the middleman are both liable.  If a product is sold in good faith and then ends up in the hands of a minor, it is no longer the seller's fault.

What that means is if worst comes worst and the courts ever did get involved and some prosecutor has some stick up his or her butt about the internet they could come after RPOL.  Which, unless they are a registered corporation or non-profit puts jase and the moderators at risk.  All the prosecutor has to say is that mod so-and-so SHOULD have known that person X was a minor because of such-and-such statement and that mod so-and-so knowingly and intentionally facilitated the exposure of pornography to a minor (by allowing the gifted subscription).

Would they get out of it?  Probably with a halfway decent attorney, and one would probably do it pro-bono.  This would be a good name maker case.

And once again, I already agreed that I have confidence jase and company have the best interests of RPoL and its community in mind—but I think the rate of deliberately (and even accidentally) fraudulent gift subscriptions would be low to nonexistent, for a variety of reasons:

1. People are generally careful with their financial information and would be unlikely to trust people who have a high chance of creating a problem for them.
   
2. Users would be (or could be made) aware of the fact that doing so with deliberate intent is fraud, and a crime, and will result in them getting banned from the site, just like any other breach.
   
3. It still has the same overall level of security as doing exactly the same thing except not offering a gifting option, since the risks and loopholes are the same.

In other words, I highly doubt that there's any more risk of a minor winding up in an adult game via gift subscription than there is now, without it. In fact, despite the potential for completely hypothetical fraud, my guess is that—with the overall action of any sort of gatekeeping system, in general—minor access would actually decrease. They still have other games to play for free, and other sites where they can do adult RP for free with fewer or no restrictions. It seems like an awful lot of work to deliberately fake pay for something when you can get it for free elsewhere; I doubt most people would bother.

I'm 100% certain the staff will do their best, and is doing their best, to make this painless and effective. But maybe it bears some consideration that if it keeps coming up, maybe it's relevant. If it's an issue every single time, then it's pertinent to the discussion in some form—which I'm sure jase and company are taking into account. But brushing others' worries off because they aren't your worries is unfair and uncool.


In reply to pfarland (msg # 247):

We're in agreement on both that first and last bit! Some asinine attorney could push it, if they wanted, but I don't think it would stick. Much more importantly, I don't see how a gift subscription would create any more meaningful liability for the site than a regular subscription.

That's my point, I suppose: One could already fake their way around a regular subscription, if one cared enough to do so. That that same possibility exists in the same way for a hypothetical gift subscription doesn't seem to add any more wood to that particular fire. If it created more liability than a regular subscription, yes, it would be a bad idea, but I don't think it does. Again, though, I'm not a lawyer.

Undoubtedly there'd be some advance warning, but for not a small number of games this would mean that they'd essentially be completely shut down. There's a not-insignificant number of games where adult situations happening is kind of the point, and that'd pretty much kill them instantly, not to mention how some players would probably simply not be able or not want to pay.

I like RPoL. I love RPoL, which is why i've been on here for so many years. But if push comes to shove, people will go 'pay this sub/fee, or just go somewhere I can play free and do so with less restrictions?' and they'll walk. Now, there's always the chance i'm wrong and everything will be great, which would make me happy beyond belief. The biggest difficulty in getting people to play elsewhere i've encountered is the sheer convenience of RPoL - Not having to search through huge, unorganized forums for character sheets and such is wonderful. Having a scratchpad is wonderful. having language groups, a portrait gallery, and just the awesomely-done custom code that makes RPoL what it is - that's all awesome beyond belief.

I just don't think those things are wonderful enough to make people stay when they lose the kinds of games they like to play and then have to pay to get them back, and it doesn't matter if it happens tomorrow or ten more years from now - it's still gonna go the same way. Fair or not, people don't like having their stuff taken away, and people are in general not reasonable nor do they care that it's a service that's provided via someone elses time and loving hard work - all they care about is it was free, they had it, and now it's gone. Do not underestimate the apathy or even spitefulness of human begins. They will rarely let you down if you do.

Now, I also realize that the vast majority of RPoL's users don't care about losing Adult access. Most of you can't fathom ever needing adult access to run a game, and that's fine. I'd wager that a fair number will even be happy to see Adult games go. But it still sucks for the people who love those games, and love RPoL.

Ultimately the point I think that's being missed in the whole conversation is this: Plenty of sites don't charge a single red cent to post adult content. Yes, I know, you say 'then go to those sites you ungrateful jerk!'. Well, okay, I will when I have no choice, but RPoL is quite frankly more convenient. Putting adult content behind a paywall will beyond a doubt kill adult games completely, barring some miracle or a really, really amazing set of benefits for subscription. Everyone keeps saying 'they've had time to think about this, that won't happen', but realistically, how does anyone conceive of any other outcome?  I would love to know what people think is going to happen when/if the subs come in, and how it's likely to shake out.
This message had punctuation tweaked by the user at 00:21, Tue 05 Aug 2014.

I thnk you're missing the point raised earlier that when players in adult games create the most work and arguably risk, then it seems not unreasonable to push the cost of managing that back on those users especially when credit card verification can be used to offset the risk of having minors accessing adult content.

Yes it's horribly unfair etc etc but at the end of the day, someone is already meeting those costs. It just isn't the people creating the work.

I think that needs to be said. It might be "free" for some right now, but it certainly isn't free. Time and money is being spent by others and the assumption that they should continue to pay so others can have it free, is a little ... Blind.

In reply to eternaldarkness (msg # 249):

I agree with you completely on this, it may not happen fast but putting Adult behind a subscription wall you have to pay money to will be the death of Adult games on RPOL. It might not happen fast, but it will happen. Because less and less people will be willing to pay to get to only that, especially when they can go other places. I love RPOL and love the bells and whistles that go with it. As I have stated before, with the right GM's it is a safe place for people to come and write adult stuff without it being overly sexual in nature. Just because some of us write sex in our stories, doesn't mean we write porn.

I have stated before, I would be more then willing to pay to write in the adult part. I would love that it helps RPOL, and the mods and jase who do a wonderful job. But if I pay my money, and there is no people there to write with what is the point. When things eventually come through, this is what I see happening. A bunch of Adult gamers will pay to play. A bunch will not who will move to mature or off the sight completely. After that, then people will drop off because well there is a whole lot of games but either it is the same old people joining or no one at all. New people coming onto the sight, I don't see a lot of them paying for adult access especially if they can't even see in and lurk. Even if they can, as soon as you come onto a website like this and see "Pay Here" most times people are more so to say never mind.

Eventually less and less people are going to bother with the adult part of it, and eventually it will be dead. And I know jase has says it isn't his intent, but unfortunately that is what is going to happen. If it doesn't happen, and it helps the sight and we get a ton of people in great. But I find it hard to think that it will happen.

I very much get that the Adult games are a difficult area for the mods, and geez I couldn't even imagine some of the stuff you have to see. But that is the case anywhere with Adult anything, there will always be issues. Adding the subscription, I don't think will directly help. Like others have said, you will end up seeing more things happening in the Mature games that shouldn't. And just because someone decides to pay money to get onto a website, doesn't mean that they will behave either. This is the internet, lots of people do lots of stupid things.

If the adult section is such an issue, that so much work is going into it to have to deal with the bad people. One it isn't fair to punish the good people, who run their games the way they should be and handle things that come up without Mods getting involved. What might be an idea, and please don't ask how it should be handled because I don't know. But perhaps get the good people who run adult games, behave themselves and make sure their players behave themselves. Perhaps get them involved, get them to help out if they can in some way. I know being one of those good players, these bad people who make things more difficult annoy me, make me angry because they give the good people a bad name.

We are in our own way a community, and people do like helping their community especially if it is important to them.

It's been stated ad nauseam that that would not be the case. Other perks will be available. The adult game access is just another aspect of the subscription benefits. Just thought I'd point that out for you.

In reply to Visceri22 (msg # 252):

But what some people do not see is the perks don't apply to everyone, yes they are being made for everyone. But for me not much I have seen is stuff I would use, so when I would pay for the subscription, it would only be for the adult access. And I would imagine some of that would be the same for a lot of others, of course not everyone but at least a good group.

So just because people are paying to use the perks, doesn't mean that it will fill in the adult games.

In reply to prophacyks (msg # 253):

This makes sense seeing as NONE of them have been unveiled yet.

But they have been hinted at, as I remember reading something or other in all of this mess that is going on. Like a bigger sketch pad, or I remember reading something about bigger maps or files for maps or something. I don't know. But the majority of things being done, are helping more the gamers who play system games, or who go into depth with certain things.

And I don't have anything against what they are considering using for that part, I really don't. But I tend to use the basic bare bones of RPOL for my games it is what works for me.

Yes, remember this point.  Adult access is only "free" at the moment because other people are paying for it.

RPoL does not owe you free Adult access on a continuing basis, any more than a local cinema or restaurant owes you free movies or food on a continuing basis.


Various countries are looking at ways to tighten up their laws on Adult content.  If RPoL does not do the same with its own rules, then one day you might log in and find that we've been forced into a situation where we have to remove all Adult content, or be closed down.

Wouldn't that be the death of Adult games on RPoL?  And that one will happen fast.