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Pathfinder - Monster attacks.

Posted by kirshlou
ihoddell
member, 46 posts
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 13:54
  • msg #6

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

The universal monster rule makes it pretty clear which attacks are primary and which are secondary.  Bite and Claw are both primary types hence both use full BAB.

Rend works off any 2 natural attacks hitting that are specified in the entry.  Trolls have an entry of Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+7) so only claws for for trolls trigger rend.  Derghodaemon has an easier time of it only needing to hit with 2 claws out of 5.

Finding an example that doesn't use claws is a bit difficult but try

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...ders/heralds/sunlord

That's a non-claw based rend to show the difference.
GamerHandle
member, 523 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 14:03
  • msg #7

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Something that may help here -

Read the tactics information.  This may often help clarify "rules" even though tactics is often meant to supplement fluff in a semi-mechanical sense...

1) Yes, a Troll can swing with either Bite, or Claws, or all of the above.
2) Nearly all Monsters in the Bestiary are 'mysteriously' proficiency with their NATURAL weapons and thus these are natural, primary attacks.  It will be obvious when they are not (such as if the attack bonus is dramatically lower.)
3) If the Attack bonus is lower, but, only by narrow margin - see if it is a large number of attacks; it may be the multi-attack feat at work.
kirshlou
member, 28 posts
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 14:33
  • msg #8

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Ok, so lets take that one step forward. Ratfolk have the following feat:

Sharpclaw (Combat, Ratfolk)
Your nails are large and strong.
Prerequisites: Ratfolk.
Benefit: You gain two claw attacks. These are primary natural attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage.

They can also use this:

Tailblade
Race Ratfolk
A tailblade is a small, sharp knife designed to be strapped to the tip of a wielder's tail.
Benefit: A ratfolk wielding a tailblade can make a tail attack, adding its Strength modifier to the tailblade's damage.
It takes a full-round action to strap on or remove a tailblade. The wearer can loosely attach the tailblade (without strapping it securely in place) as a move action, but using a loosely attached tailblade gives the wielder a –4 penalty on all attack rolls made with the weapon, and other creatures get a +4 bonus on disarm combat maneuver checks to disarm the tailblade.
Ratfolk are considered proficient with such attacks and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to tail attacks made with a tailblade. If used as part of a full attack action, attacks with a tailblade are considered secondary attacks.


So, if I understand the rules correctly, a 1st level Ratfolk Fighter (or anyone class and who has a proficiency with tailblade) can get 3 attacks in a round (Full round action). That is 2 claw attacks at full attack and damage bonus and a tail attack at -5 to hit and 1/2 damage.

Taking this further by making the Ratfolk a Rogue with a Heirloom Weapon trait, he will get the +1d6 sneak damage to all of his hits (assuming the opponent is flat footed or flanked, or is not getting a DEX bonus).

Is this correct?
GamerHandle
member, 524 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 14:46
  • msg #9

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

This is absolutely correct, IF:

You are deemed proficient with your natural weapons.  So, yes.
LoreGuard
member, 515 posts
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 17:33
  • msg #10

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Only question I have about the situation is... that it does not explicitly defined the weapon as being officially a Natural Attack or a Weapon.  I think with the combination of their referring to it, when used as a full attack, it being treated as a secondary attack, and the fact that it says you can use feats and effects appropriate for natural attacks on them, that it is supposed to be considered a Natural Attack, rather than a weapon.  (save that it can be disarmed)

As long as it is truly considered a natural attack, then you would get, with a full attack:
2x claw (@BAB) 1d4 + full Str bonus (on both of them)
1x tail (@BAB -5) 1d2 +1/2 Str bonus (because it is a secondary attack)

If it was considered a Weapon... it shouldn't be considered secondary attack... since when substituting weapons become your primary attack, and any remaining natural weapons become secondary, (and you normally lose one natural attack per weapon you wield) even if a particular attack is normally considered primary.  So you could replace one claw with a short sword, getting you:
1x shortsword (@BAB) 1d4(19-80) +Str bonus
1x claw (@BAB -5) 1d4 +1/2 Str bonus (because it is treated as a secondary attack)
1x tail (@BAB -5) 1d2 +1/2 Str bonus (because it is a secondary attack)

That means you loose a lot in the scenario, so it would take a really good benefit, for someone to likely consider this.

Now, any damage done, if the individual was flanked... (say by two ratfolk standing together attacking the same foe) the damage for sneak attack would be added to each attack that hits.  Someone could argue... if it was just that they were unaware of you, say because of invisibility you were flat-footed.  They might not be flat-after your first attack, and you might loose your sneak attack bonus after that.
godlearner
member, 555 posts
No good deed,
shall go unpunished.
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 18:50
  • msg #11

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 10):

If used as part of a full attack action, attacks with a tailblade are considered secondary attacks.

That's pretty clear that it is considered a same as a natural weapon.

quote:
Now, any damage done, if the individual was flanked... (say by two ratfolk standing together attacking the same foe) the damage for sneak attack would be added to each attack that hits.

For Ratfolk its even better, they have an ability (Swarming) to occupy  the same square and if they attack the same target, they are flanking. In the situation as presented a target could get hit with up to 6 sneak attacks in a round. And, they get +2 to hit for flanking as well, so that -5 is not really that bad.

quote:
Someone could argue... if it was just that they were unaware of you, say because of invisibility you were flat-footed.  They might not be flat-after your first attack, and you might loose your sneak attack bonus after that.

Someone would be wrong, since the condition sticks around for the turn.
LoreGuard
member, 516 posts
Thu 20 Mar 2014
at 19:30
  • msg #12

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Actually, if talking about the Invisibility spell, the spell clearly states that the Invisibility ends immediately upon making a qualifying attack.  http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/...pells/i/invisibility

If you are talking about someone with improved or somehow permanent invisibility, then the invisible condition would not end, and they would continue, for sure to get sneak attack damage.

Actually, I slightly misspoke earlier about the person being flat-footed, because of them being invisible.  They aren't actually flat-footed, they have lost their dex bonus to AC due to their attacker having the Invisible condition.  That does grant sneak attack damage however, as would flanking.  http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamema...itions#TOC-Invisible

And yes... Ratlings standing together get to consider their opponent Flanked, which is why I mentioned it in the first place.

(as far as 3.5 goes, I don't remember if invisibility triggers its own condition effects, or if it creates the flat-footed condition, I'd have to go back an look at it, but this did specify Pathfinder)
Flint_A
member, 484 posts
Fri 21 Mar 2014
at 02:11
  • msg #13

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

We had that discussion in another thread VERY recently. The gist of it is: If they were flat-footed regardless of the invisibility(say, you ambushed them while invisible) then they don't lose that condition until they get a turn; so all your attacks are sneak attacks. Otherwise, only the first one is.



As for full attacks; keep in mind that if you use a regular weapon, not only do you forfeit the use of the hand holding the weapon but also all your other natural attacks(such as, the other claw) become secondary for the full attack.

Without a weapon though(not counting the tailblade) I believe you get two full claws, plus a secondary tailblade.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2025 posts
AKA Banaticus
Sat 22 Mar 2014
at 22:02
  • msg #14

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

1. A single primary attack of whatever type is made with the normal bonus unless something later comes back and changes this.

2. A high base attack bonus (BAB) from class levels, but not from monstrous hit dice, allows you to take further primary attacks with a cumulative -5 reduction in BAB for each attack, until you get to 0 BAB or less.  These attacks, due to penalties, may be at a negative attack bonus.

3. Secondary natural weapons have a -2 penalty to their attacks.

4. Multiple non-natural weapons follow two-weapon fighting rules.  Normally you go back and apply a -6 to the primary attack and a -10 penalty to any other attack.  For instance, a 4-armed creature with a sword in each hand takes one attack at -6 and the other three attacks at -10.  These penalties can be reduced with the two-weapon fighting feats, or the multiweapon fighting feats, as appropriate.

5. If you get iterative attacks, you still only get a single offhand attack for extra attack/weapon you have, whether manufactured or natural, unless you have a feat or feats that specifically gives you more offhand attacks to match iterative attacks.

Example:
So, if you are a 20th level fighter 13/wizard 7 with a BAB of 16 who polymorphs himself a 4-armed girallon, fights with a sword in two hands, and has the multiweapon fighting, improved multiweapon fighting, and greater multiweapon fighting feats, and you take no more than a 5' step in a round so you can take the full attack action, then your attacks would be like this:
+12 sword, +12 sword, +14 claw, +14 claw, +14 bite
+7 sword, +7 sword, +9 claw, +9 claw, +9 bite (improved multiweapon fighting and BAB)
+2 sword, +2 sword, +4 claw, +4 claw, +4 bite(greater multiweapon fighting and BAB)
-3 sword (from your BAB)
Now, if all those attacks hit, technically you only get one rend, since it says "if two or more claw attacks hit then..." but you might be able to talk your DM into giving you three bonus rend damages.  That's a lot of attacks, but then this is a 20th level character who's put a lot of time and effort into doing just this.  Not to mention, with most of those attacks your penalties to hit are so bad that you're not really going to be hitting much that you're fighting at 20th level.  Looks cool, though, you might be able to talk your DM into a bonus on intimidate checks. ;)
This message was last edited by the user at 22:05, Sat 22 Mar 2014.
Low Key
member, 155 posts
Sun 23 Mar 2014
at 09:51
  • msg #15

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Genghis the Hutt:
2. A high base attack bonus (BAB) from class levels, but not from monstrous hit dice, allows you to take further primary attacks with a cumulative -5 reduction in BAB for each attack, until you get to 0 BAB or less.  These attacks, due to penalties, may be at a negative attack bonus.


Where can I find this rule?
I spent several hours looking for something like this recently, and couldn't find anything. It'd be a great help if you could point me in the right direction!
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2028 posts
Just an average guy :)
Sun 23 Mar 2014
at 11:47
  • msg #16

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Ok, I was wrong.  It's not that monster hit dice don't contribute to iterative attacks, it's that you can't get iterative attacks with a natural weapon.*  You have to be fighting with a manufactured weapon to get iterative attacks based on your hit dice.  The Monster Manual p299 alludes to this in the Full Attack section with its separate sections for "natural weapons", "manufactured weapons", and "natural and manufactured weapons" and rules for how to calculate attack penalties based on whether the creature is using natural or manufactured weapons (or both).  Savage Species p27 spells it out explicitly, "A monster does not get iterative attacks (multiple attacks with the same weapon at a cumulative -5 penalty, as a manufactured weapon would provide) on a full attack action with its natural weapons unless the class description specifies otherwise."  You'll notice that this is how all the creatures in the MM are.  Those who fight with natural weapons, like a claw/bite, don't get iterative attacks, those who pick up a weapon and fight like Solars do get iterative attacks.

*The monk exception in the PHB, "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)."

I was wrong because I was remembering how you handle increasing +0LA creatures with only one monstrous hit dice who decide to start taking regular class levels -- the first class level hit die replaces the monster's single monstrous hit die.

The example I gave was also wrong -- the multiweapon fighting feats only apply to manufactured weapons, not natural weapons.
kirshlou
member, 40 posts
Tue 6 May 2014
at 18:13
  • msg #17

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Genghis the Hutt:
1. A single primary attack of whatever type is made with the normal bonus unless something later comes back and changes this.

So, monsters listed with 2 claw primary attack, get how many rolls in a round where they took a Move action?
Verisimilitude
member, 42 posts
Tue 6 May 2014
at 18:42
  • msg #18

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Genghis the Hutt:
...allows you to take further primary attacks with a cumulative -5 reduction in BAB for each attack, until you get to 0 BAB or less.  These attacks, due to penalties, may be at a negative attack bonus.


Accurate, but somewhat misleading the way you stated it... you do not get further primary attacks if the adjusted BAB is 0 or less.  The way you stated it could be interpreted as allowing one attack at 0 or less.  It's probably more clear to describe just by listing it as a conditional statement like this:
  • If BAB is 6 or greater, make a second primary attack at -5
  • If BAB is 11 or greater, make a third primary attack at -10
  • If BAB is 16 or greater, make a fourth primary attack at -15
  • etc...



kirshlou:
So, monsters listed with 2 claw primary attack, get how many rolls in a round where they took a Move action?


I believe, that unless they have a special ability (like Pounce), they are limited to a single attack except when making a Full Attack action (which, generally, precludes a Move action)
kirshlou
member, 41 posts
Tue 6 May 2014
at 20:03
  • msg #19

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Verisimilitude:
I believe, that unless they have a special ability (like Pounce), they are limited to a single attack except when making a Full Attack action (which, generally, precludes a Move action)

And if they have a secondary attack? Is secondary attack only taken with a Full Attack? If so then what the heck is the difference, just the -5?
Verisimilitude
member, 43 posts
Tue 6 May 2014
at 20:16
  • msg #20

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

In reply to kirshlou (msg # 19):

The general rule is, unless you make a Full Attack, you only get ONE attack.  Period.  Multiple attacks, whether iterative or from a second weapon or secondary natural attack or multiple primary natural attacks, can only be used on a Full Attack, which you cannot normally do if you use a Move action.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 459 posts
Tue 6 May 2014
at 21:03
  • msg #21

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

In reply to kirshlou (msg # 19):

Secondary attacks have the -5, can't be used by themselves (a single attack has to be primary), and I believe (though not positive) that secondary weapons count as always off hand weapons including all the effects there-of.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2153 posts
Just an average guy :)
Tue 6 May 2014
at 21:41
  • msg #22

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

What other people have said.  A standard attack gives you a single attack, period.  Now, you may get additional attacks in response to something.  For instance if your single regular attack is a trip attack and you have the improved trip feat, then you get to follow up with one more regular attack.  If your attack killed someone and you have the cleave or great cleave feats, then you get to make one more regular attack.

With power attack, improved trip, and great cleave, you trip people, then make your free attack on them while they're prone for a +4 attack bonus, but turn that +4 into more damage with power attack, kill them, then start the process over again until you run out of people within reach that you can kill with one attack.  Plus, since you only took "a single standard attack" you then get to make your normal 30' move.

Meanwhile, octopuses can only move 5' in a round if they want to hit you with more than one tentacle.
kirshlou
member, 42 posts
Wed 7 May 2014
at 14:14
  • msg #23

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

DarkLightHitomi:
In reply to kirshlou (msg # 19):

Secondary attacks have the -5, can't be used by themselves (a single attack has to be primary), and I believe (though not positive) that secondary weapons count as always off hand weapons including all the effects there-of.

Now that I will dispute. There is nothing that I found that says that a secondary attack can not be used by themselves. If fact if I remember correct (I will look for it in the rules), it said a secondary attack used by itself becomes a primary attack.

The off hand 1/2 STR modified does apply to secondary attacks and I believe they count as light weapon, so no Power Attack for them and such.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2155 posts
Just an average guy :)
Wed 7 May 2014
at 16:46
  • msg #24

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

kirshlou:
There is nothing that I found that says that a secondary attack can not be used by themselves. If fact if I remember correct (I will look for it in the rules), it said a secondary attack used by itself becomes a primary attack.
That's correct.  Usually the primary attack for a creature with multiple natural attacks is the one with the most damage, the biggest reach, or there's some other strong mechanical benefit to always using that primary attack if there's only going to be one attack made in a round, but a creature could choose to make the one standard attack with any "secondary" weapon at full normal attack.  It's usually disadvantageous to do so, but there's nothing against it.
Verisimilitude
member, 45 posts
Wed 7 May 2014
at 18:05
  • msg #25

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 24):

Yeah, besides it would be silly to say that a troll (for example) that had its hands tied (or chopped off) couldn't choose to bite someone.
Xeriph
member, 12 posts
Fri 16 May 2014
at 00:57
  • msg #26

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

wow where to start here.

troll :

If the troll does not move or takes a 5' step it can make all of its attacks at the specified bonuses.  in this case a troll has 3 primary attacks all at full bab and no secondary attacks.  it does have a special attack which occurs when two claws hit.  This is important because if a bad guy casts haste on the troll then it could get 3 claws attacks in one round any two of which hitting will trigger rend.

if the troll moves more than  1 5' step it may chose any one attack to perform just like any one else as it has no special rule like pounce.

Natural attacks do not get iterative attacks.

Natural primary attacks taken with a manufactured weapon (except monks) are taken at -5. this is not cumulative with the secondary natural weapon -5.

tail blade feat is a secondary attack at -5.  which is allowed with other attacks because of the wording of the feat.

invisibility does not make the target flat footed, they are denied dexterity bonus which is NOT the same effect.  flat footed is a very specific condition, though many things make you lose dexterity bonus.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:58, Fri 16 May 2014.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2183 posts
Just an average guy :)
Fri 16 May 2014
at 01:01
  • msg #27

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Xeriph:
in this case a troll has 3 primary attacks all at full bab and no secondary attacks.

No: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm see the "full attack" line.
Xeriph:
Natural primary attacks taken with a manufactured weapon (except monks) are taken at -5. this is not cumulative with the secondary natural weapon -5.

Yes, because then it's a manufactured attack and not a natural attack.  Secondary natural attacks are at a -2 penalty, not -5.

The rest is pretty much correct, I believe.
elecgraystone
member, 742 posts
Fri 16 May 2014
at 01:22
  • msg #28

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

You are looking at the wrong troll. For pathfinder :http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/troll.html

#1 All attacks are +8 because they are ALL primary attacks. Xeriph 100% right.

#2 Wrong.
"Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls." PRD
Attacks with weapons and natural weapons. "Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
Xeriph 100% right.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2185 posts
Just an average guy :)
Fri 16 May 2014
at 03:15
  • msg #29

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Awesome, I learned something new, thanks. :)
kirshlou
member, 43 posts
Fri 16 May 2014
at 13:51
  • msg #30

Re: Pathfinder - Monster attacks

Xeriph:
tail blade feat is a secondary attack at -5.  which is allowed with other attacks because of the wording of the feat.

Tailblade is not a feat. It counts as a secondary attack for Ratfolk even though its a Martial weapon.
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