I am finding that the prices for Poisons in Pathfinder (and D&D3.5) are ridiculously high when compared to magical potions. For example Arsenic is 120 gp. For that price and player can buy 2 CLW potions and still have money left over.

Does anyone know the reason for this? I am thinking of lowering the prices on Poison  to 10% of the listed values across the board. Am I missing something?

poisons should be expensive...

arsenic does CON dmg so it should be at least twice as expensive since CON loss lowers saves

DC 13, and had potential to do 8 pts CON dmg (1-2/minute for 4 minutes or until successful save, whichever first

IMO poison is deadlier in Pathfinder vs 3.5

In reply to The_Blob (msg # 2):

Arsenic must be Ingested. The DC 13 is pretty easy to make even for a 1st level. Maximum damage will still have minimal affect on a character. Is it potentially dangerous, yes but no where near the price they are listing it at.

Also - in most places in the Pathfinder world, potions are legal and poisons aren't - hence a higher price for poison...

In reply to bobbofeet (msg # 4):

Which leads us to the question as to why? Magic is a lot more dangerous. But, I am not concerned with their published world and that does not hold for D&D3.5 where prices are just as expensive.

It just seems that the reason that it is so expensive is that the game designers do not want people to use it.

comparing it to a CLW potion makes no sense, the effects aren't similar, seems to make more sense to compare it to a potion of Bear's Endurance (+4 CON), minimum 3rd lvl caster, so, that's what... 300gp? ^_~

In reply to The_Blob (msg # 6):

+1 to that comparison :D

It is reasonable to ask why using poison is considered evil, even if it is a sleep poison, while casting a sleep spell is morally agnostic.  How about a poison doing hp damage?  That should be easily compareable in some ways to a potion/oil of inflict wounds.  If you want to say using death poisons is evil... So should using any death or lethal magic spells.

Now on the other hand it is easy to imaging many places outlawing them and making them more expensive... Especially lethal ones.  However, it is equally easy to imagine places where spell casters would be illegal too.  It could be that certain poisons might be considered acceptable in some places, at least for some things, or some people.  Maybe a poison that has a grater impact on a species of nearby monsters.

So something like at Gnoll-bane: a poison doing 1d4hp to any creature not both canine and (humanoid or aberration).  Such creatures get fort save for no damage.  One save prevents affect from future poison effects from same type of poison for 24 hours.  Creatures neither cannine, nor humanoid get a +4 to their save.  Creatures that are canine and humanoid or abberation take 1d8 hp damage and 1d6 Dex.  Save for half damage.  One a save is made damage remains half for future contact for 24 hours.

The above was just for flavor what a community plagued by Gnolls might consider fair use.

How is that even close? Bear's endurance does not have a save, and does not require a to hit.

Poison is really only effective at low levels and that is precisely where it is prohibitive due to costs.

Instead, I imagine a better comparison would probably be like Ray of Enfeeblement.  (1d6+1 per 2/levels against STR)

It requires an attack, has a save, etc.  It doesn't have the risks of using poison, but it does require spell casting ability, or the ability to fake out the use of magic.

That brings up another option for a basic... simple poison would be something comparable to a Ray of Sickening.  As I mentioned before...Sleep is an obvious one... it would only impact one person, unless you allowed it to be a gaseous poison released by throwing a vial.

Another idea for a cognitive poison would be something with an effect similar to Color spray, another first level spell.  It could require wounding someone, or could be inhaled as above.  I think I'd offer those adjacent the target square a +2 to the save, and/or consider their level one higher, or twice their actual level.

Lets actually take Touch of Fatigue... which is a cantrip.  Actually, according to I think it is Skull and Shackles, some alcohol might be considered an ingested poison that creates a fatigued, or exhausted condition.  Why not allow a poison/alchemical option for lower level adventurers.

You could probably actually control poison better by making getting specific poisons very difficult to find, and in limited quantity before supply being exhausted.  You could however have certain regions have access to certain poisons at potentially, with good skills, reachable difficulty.  Some poisons might be available given time, and premium payments made to boost your DC to acquire it.

It seems reasonable for poisons to potentially be priced around the price of a potion for a spell of similar effects.  It generally shouldn't cost lest, save potentially, a sleep dose, might cost less if it can only affect one target, requires a chance of self-poisoning and requires a successful hit.  Also, you could place expiration on poisons if you want to, making them become less potent, or useless after a specified time.  Other options, as I mentioned, might include certain species having immunity or having a natural resistance.  These quirks might be enough to insure people don't rely on it too much.

Potential quirks:
 Immunity sensitive:  After rolling any successful save vs. this poison, all subsequent checks for this poison are considered successful for 24 hours.
 Occasional immunity:  After rolling a natural 20 on any save vs. this poison.  All subsequent saves for 24 hours are considered successful.
 Progressive resistance:  After rolling a natural 20 on any save vs. this poison, all subsequent saves vs. this poison are given a permanent +1 resistance bonus.  The same occurs for rolls of a natural 1, but may be limited to occurring after the initial effect wears off.  The benefits of multiple saves over time can stack, to a maximum of the character's level.  (might rule that these resistance bonuses will not stack with Racial bonuses vs. Poison.)

But these quirks could help keep costs down and make poison use provide potential issues.

1) Poisons are considered expressly difficult to craft and handle (such as coating onto a blade to make it into an injury poison.) - Hence its reference on the Assassin.

2) As mentioned quite a number of times above - It is likely illegal.

3) If YOUR world makes spellcasting either illegal or taboo - then you should adjust the prices of CLW (Cure Light Wounds) potions accordingly.

4) DC13 is NOT easy to make at level 1.  Actually, that's quite frightening.  Especially considering that most NPCs with an intelligence score of 11 or higher should target the correct PC with their abilities: anything that targets Fortitude should not hit the Fighter, Cleric or Paladin (or similar).  Instead, this should hit the Wizard or the Rogue.  The wizard is unlikely to have anything, at first or second level to make them better able to resist this effect on the fly.  Thus, they have a mere DC10 = 55% -- DC13 = 40% chance? (someone check my math please.) of succeeding.

1) Certain poisons are difficult to craft and handle. Especially injury types poisons. Others like Arsenic are not. There is nothing difficult about collecting it.

2) Poisons are commonly used all over the place. It is illegal to poison someone, but its not illegal to posses poison such Arsenic and even most common fertilizer. Technically alcohol, or even tobacco, is considered a poison. A lot of common substances are poisonous in larger doses.

3) In my world, I have made a choice to lower the cost of poisons instead. I feel that represents a more realistic cost.  A things value is determined by supply and demand. As things stand I see an abundance in supply, but very little demand in Pathfinder to support the current prices.

4) Yes DC 13 = 40% to make it, but a result of failure is a loss of but 1 or 2 points. The chance of failing 2 saving throws is 16%, 3 is 6.4%, and 4 is 2.56%. The possible loss of 8 points is about 1%

Lets also not forget that Detect Poison is a 0 level spell, but most caster do not even bother with it since the consequences of being exposed to poison are just not that dire. Once you get to level 3 those stats are fairly easily restored as well, so poisons become even less threatening.

Without digressing too much - there is no realism and certainly no verisimilitude to the costs in DnD.  Cut down a piece of wood and spend 2 days crafting it into a a bow... and it becomes worth 75 GOLD?!  LOLs...

However, even if we accept this assumption:

1) To reiterate - in DND ALL poisons are considered difficult to handle and dangerous.

2) Most fantasy settings (and remember, even Pathfinder assumes you're playing in Golarion) considers neither Alcohol nor Tobacco to be a Poison - they are just character fluff.

3) That works quite well - for my world - all costs are change to express themselves in bronze, copper and silver pieces.  GOLD is for magic items and extremely expensive things - like a McMansion.

4) Yes, however; if the individual fails even one of those rolls- the next roll gets worse (of course this only applies to poisons which do CON damage - however; that is why THOSE poisons are more expensive.  Everything that does CON damage is considered powerful.)

5) Yes, I agree with your notion.  However, this is why I brought up the discussion board about grim-n-gritty.  (different thread) - most DMs don't bother with inclement weather or getting sick either.  If they did, Poisons WOULD be threatening - and could very well be threatening.  (Imagine having a -1 to all fort and reflex saves every time you were caught out in the rain for more than 10 minutes.)

This forum is strictly for clarification of the functioning of the published rules of a system.

Extended discussion of house rules (ie: how you change the published rules to suit your game) is beyond the scope of the forum.

I may be mixing the terms... does Pathfinder have a similar system but separate system for drugs vs. poison.  They seem similar consrtucts to me, hence the confusion but below is an example of a Paizo and Golarion substance.

Shackles Rum Ration
Type ingested; Addiction minor, Fortitude DC 5
Price 2 sp
Effect variable; +1d4 alchemical bonus to Charisma and
fatigued for 1d8 hours

In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 15):

Drugs are handled (as you posted above) [and apologies BBR for bringing outside bits in] via an addiction system.

Poisons are handled in conjunction with the concept of traps - single effects that trigger a specific number of times.

Drugs - and their corresponding addictions are handled as initially, a one-time effect; followed by a possible tack-on "flaw" so to speak (my words not theirs) that forces the character to get more.

Sorry Ron if we got a bit of track. If there is a better Forum for this discussion, perhaps you can point (or move this thread) there.

I notice that Firearms rules handle a similar issue by layering price and availability by era. A similar approach to Poison would work as well.

A few points that are missing from this discussion (Pathfinder):

1) Poison stacks.  Every dose after the first increases the save DC by +2 and the duration by 50%.  Not only that, but a single exposure to ingested or inhaled poisons can represent multiple doses.

2) Poison prices are market prices.  If you're making your own, they're 1/3 of that cost, which helps a lot.  As always, harvesting it directly from a pre-made source (snake venom, spider venom, specific plants) makes it free, though that might be an adventure in and of itself.

3) Crafting poison is only dangerous if you roll a 1.  As long as you're making poisons that you can take 10 on, you'll never expose yourself to it.

4) The victim isn't necessarily aware that they were poisoned.  Nothing in the rules indicate that they would be, at least, making poison the assassin's tool of choice.  Historically, there have been plenty of cases of slow poisoning where it is applied over time to kill someone.  The victims of poisoning are often only identified after being examined by an expert.

I will agree that the prices of poisons are pretty high and would adjust them dramatically if local production is possible.