I've got a player playing a Super-speedster who wants to apply the Permanent flaw to the Quickness power. Would that do anything at all?

In reply to Sir_Chivalry (msg # 1):

With any flaw you have to ask the questions "would this really cause you any trouble?" and "does this make the power less effective/useful 50% of the time".

So for permanency:

• "would this really cause you any trouble?" - Maybe if you could never do anything slower.  But the latter really seems to be a quirk or a character disadvantage
• "does this make the power less effective/useful 50% of the time" - no it is still as effective all the time.

Being huge all the time has a clear problem - heavy, easier to hit, don't fit in places easily.  Able to do things quicker, not so much.

To me this is a clear case of the player trying to squeeze some points out of "not really a disadvantage".  I might allow it to be a power quirk (-1 point overall NOT a flaw for -1point/level).

In reply to archus (msg # 2):

That's what I thought. Figured it works more as a complication.

actually I can see being fast All the time as a disadvantage. Imagine trying to do dishes, or cook, or paint, or really anything where the kinetic force of the speed would cause more damage than help in the situation. Delicate work would also be out of the question. Allot of normal day to day things would be harder if not down right impossible if you can't move at more normal speeds.

In reply to ShadoPrism (msg # 4):

Totally different disad... the quickness power explicitly lets you do anything quickly from painting the house, assembling an engine, or decorating eggs..  Superpowers give physics the finger (just like you can fly at speeds past the speed of light with no risk of damaging the earth)

Now maybe "cannot perform delicate tasks" would be worth a flaw ... but really it might fall in the power quirk range.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:56, Mon 17 Feb 2014.

This is a classic example of where the Narrator would need to arbitrate where the line between fluff and mechanic is forced to blur.  If the individual just wants to always appear as a blur to everyone else... this is not much of a disadvantage (following the points provided by archus earlier).

If, as ShadoPrism describes, the fluff AND the mechanics are articulated so that it provides an explicit problem and inconvenience to day-to-day tasks: then yes, it's worth something.

In reply to GamerHandle (msg # 6):

I agree, but using the 2e M&M rules as written (and intended) would not have Permanent on Quickness mean anything about physics and paint.  Hence I suggested a totally separate modifier ... something to the effect of "Always on with Physics -1 Modifier"


Nothing about "physics and painting".  If you rule that in your world, supers have to be concerned about such things everyone will have trouble with this power.


I don't think always having to do things quickly is a disadvantage.  Maybe it would keep you from having a secret id... but this is more of a complication than a way to make the power cheaper.  The power isn't weaker and doesn't lend itself to many problems for the character by itself.  Every time I've seen a player want to do something like "can I make this power permanent", especially if they argue vehemently for it, they are just trying to shave points.  Now if they suggested the whole inability to keep a secret id or that they couldn't do delicate tasks, then I'm more up for discussing the point since they seem to be trying to limit the power or cause trouble for themselves (or they are cleverly making me think that).

Of course, playing/running Hero (and later M&M) since the 1980s has made me suspicious of point shaving power-gaming.  I'm old and cynical.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:22, Mon 17 Feb 2014.

Truthfully its been over a decade since I played M&M and don't recall the rules at all. (All my old books were scattered over a high way in a car accident, never to be seen (by me) again.

I am sure, for the crafty GM there is a way to turn anything in to a flaw.
(Though if this is a Mature game, Quickness would be hard on the love life ...)

Unless you recover as quickly ;)

At some levels of quickness you could be doing "routine tasks" millions of times faster than a normal person.  Always figured Flash could "take a break" to save the world with his wife being none the wiser. ;)

There are only 86400 seconds in a day.  At rank 15 or 16 (2e) you do in a second what a normal person does in a day.  Course this is just routine tasks, doesn't imply healing, recovery, etc.  Those are different power effects you could justify as a speedster.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:07, Mon 17 Feb 2014.

Whether or not I'd allow it would depend on the overall theme of the game.  If you are always moving at superspeed, you would just flat out weird people out because your social cues, body language, and speech wouldn't be normal (translating to a social penalty of approximate size to the power).  And forget trying to pull off a disguise or blend in with a crowd.  If it were the kind of game where that didn't really matter (strictly a super teams kind of game), I'd say it's not a flaw.  Otherwise, it'd be as much a flaw as a lot of stuff people get points for.

I could see being permanently fast as a big problem in several areas.  Communication for one.  How can anyone else understand you if you can't talk slow enough for them?  How can you understand what anyone else is saying when they seem (to you) to speak so incredibly slowly?  Basically, you wouldn't be able to interact in any meaningful way with anybody else on the planet.  Writing everything out might help, but isn't a perfect solution.

Also, it would probably affect your sanity in a myriad of unforeseen ways.  for example, you'd have to develop amazing powers of patience (relative to your own speed) to sit and watch a movie, etc.

Biggest issue I see would simply be role-playing it correctly.  So I'd probably have no problem with it being a Flaw as long as these sorts of issues were consistently observed.  If it were actually only going to be a minor inconvenience then maybe a Quirk for -1 PP.
This message was last edited by the user at 08:20, Tue 18 Feb 2014.

Disclaimer: I do not know M&M 2nd, I know only 3rd, so this might not apply at all. But if it does, it's easy to miss, so I thought I'd point it out.

At least in 3rd, Quickness is Sustained. So you CAN'T apply Permanent to it, that can only be applied to Continuous powers. So you have to pay for Increased Duration to change it from Sustained to Continuous, THEN get the Permanent flaw. In effect, it changes nothing about the price.

Again, I don't know if that's the case in 2nd, but if it is, it's not really an issue of whether the player's getting a free cost reduction. He isn't.

In reply to Flint_A (msg # 12):

Good point actually.  In 3rd it is Sustained.  In 2nd, however, it's Continuous so Permanent is technically viable.
This message was last edited by the user at 08:23, Tue 18 Feb 2014.

In reply to Sir_Chivalry (msg # 1):

Add permanent, innate (if it's a natural, inborn ability) & check required:

The check is a DC20 Dex check to NOT move quickly in situations that require the character to act slowly.

Talking, handling delicate items, stealth, ect. Some things need a measure of slowness in order to avoid confusion and/or calamity. Talking fast is confusing to most people. Moving fast is louder than slow pacing movement. Handling smooth crystalline pieces takes careful skill.

Give the player what they want, at a cost. Barry Allen knew better.