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Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training.

Posted by Roaming Shadow
LoreGuard
member, 489 posts
Fri 7 Feb 2014
at 01:23
  • msg #9

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

No, I didn't say that Flurry attacks had to come from all different weapons, I didn't mean to be saying that either.  In fact it indicates specifically, that they can come from all the same... or all different... as the monk chooses.  (as long as they are all monk weapons/eligible)  What I was trying to point out was that a monk does either their weapon damage, or their unarmed strike damage.  All the feat does, is bump up one of their natural weapons, up to the same damage that they could have done without it in the first place.

If you read the claw blades (at least as presented in the SRD) they change the attack from a Natural Weapon to a Light Slashing Weapon, which would mean they would be eligible for being made made masterwork, and eligible for being enchanted, but would no longer be Natural Attacks, so not eligible for the benefits of the discussed feat.  It does indicate that Catfolk with the claws racial trait are considered proficient with that weapon however, but they aren't natural attacks any longer.  (I verified that the PRD wording is the same.  See below with my emphasis.

PRD:
Claw Blades: These subtle blades can only be used by catfolk with the cat's claws racial trait. Bought in a set of five, they fit over the wearer's claws on one hand. The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon. Catfolk with the cat's claws racial trait are proficient with this weapon. The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs. The listed cost of the item is for one set of five claws for one hand.


Also the Feral Combat Training feat talks about picking one of your natural weapons, not one type or group of your natural weapons.  I'm not certain I'd normally be that finicky about things in general... if it didn't seem overpowering and made sense in general.  But if someone is trying to pull use some 'form' to get them more attacks than a flurry normally allows, and claiming all their attacks get to use their monk damage and tap extra powers on top of that too, I suspect I would be looking back at this portion and seeing if it has pushed it too far.
elecgraystone
member, 701 posts
Fri 7 Feb 2014
at 02:04
  • msg #10

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

I've seen people on both sides of the single claw vs claws and NO reply form anyone official on the boards. With no official reply and divided unofficial replies, I can only go on how I've seen it run and so far it's been claws.

As far as the blades being weapons now it doesn't stop them from being claws. If you picked claw for feral combat training, it's STILL a claw attack as pointed out under the item. "+1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls". The pick had to be from natural weapons but the actual attack only looks at what you picked, not what it's current type is.
LoreGuard
member, 496 posts
Sun 9 Feb 2014
at 06:08
  • msg #11

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

The benefit is to the selected natural weapon.  And the Claw Blades says it Changes... from... to... which to me is pretty clear that it isn't Adding a new descriptor to the existing natural attack claws to make them also light slashing weapons.  It is changing it From (meaning no longer) to (meaning what its new descriptor is).  So, really there is a pretty clear cut explanation for why it would no longer qualify for the feat.  It doesn't say you gain the bonus to everything with the word claw in it.

So if the Claw Blades are Light Slashing Weapons... when I am asked if it is the 'specific' natural weapon... [and eligible for the feat] the answer would pretty clearly to me be... no.  You don't re-write the requirements of the feat after you pick it.
elecgraystone
member, 704 posts
Sun 9 Feb 2014
at 06:25
  • msg #12

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

But you aren't. You picked claw and the attack STAYED claw.

Is claw a natural weapon? yes, so you can pick it for the feat.
Does ANYTHING from clawblades change it from a claw attack? NO
For it not to work, you'd have to prove that a claw attack isn't a claw attack.
ricosuave
member, 101 posts
Sun 9 Feb 2014
at 08:25
  • msg #13

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

excpet with claw blades its not a natural attack anymore its an attack with a light weapon.  The item says it changes the  weapon type, so any feast that applied to the OLD wepaon type (in this case a ntural attack that happens to be a claw) no longer apply.

how you are able to argue your point that remain the same is beyond my ability of comprehension.
elecgraystone
member, 705 posts
Sun 9 Feb 2014
at 16:35
  • msg #14

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

If a dagger changed to a natural weapon, weapon finesse would still work with it. The weapon is VERY careful to keep the name of the attack so all the catfolk feats work with it. If it's claw for catfolk pounce, it's a claw for other feats.

If you don't argee ricosuave, go down the checklist.

Is claw a valid option for feral combat?
Do clawblades stay a claw attack?

The answer to both is yes. It doesn't matter if it's type changed from it's initial pick, it's still the same attack you pick: a claw attack.
ricosuave
member, 102 posts
Sun 9 Feb 2014
at 19:09
  • msg #15

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

You a4re missing the two things that natter and just making up your argument out of thin air to support a stance that literally has no bearing or relavance to the feat and item in question.

Feral Combat Training: Pick 1 natural weapon

Claw Blades: Change  claw from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon


Since Feral COmbat training requires one to have a natural weapon and claw blades changes that from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon it is no longer a valid choice for feral combat training, what type of attack is it has absolutely no bearing on anything

why you keep insisting it does make no sense, all it cares about is a type of weapon, is it a natural weapon  or not?

If you put on clawblades it clearly states that your claws are no longer considered natural but are now instead light slashing, so therefore are ineligible for the benefit of Feral Combat training wich requires natural weapon.
elecgraystone
member, 706 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 02:34
  • msg #16

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

And there is one thing YOU are missing. Claw blades deals NO damage of it's own it deals the damage of the natural attack. And what modifies the natural attack damage? You guessed it, FERAL COMBAT! You could toss in Improved Natural Attack too is you wanted.

If you don't think this is right, please explain to me how much damage you do with a claw blade attack?

The only iffy part if it would work as a monk weapon. If you read it as picking a natural weapon type then it should still work (it's still a claw attack and you roll claw attacks and damage). If you are the 'it's only your right claw' crowd, then it wouldn't.
ricosuave
member, 103 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 03:04
  • msg #17

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

Please re-read what i posted previously you are not even paying attention to the relevant issue at hand.

feral combat training only work on natural weapons..

if you have no natural weapons, then the feat does not work. and sicne you are using claw blades the change your claws FROM a natural weapon TO a ligh simple weapon.

How cna you appply Feral combat training, whihc explicity states that it needs natural weapons to work, whne you don't have natural weapon instead you have a light simple weapon?

you keep arguing over matters that literall have zero to do with the two feats interacting with each other and youve now completely ignored irrefutable proof SEVERAL TIMES, might I add that your nonsensicle argument holds no water, as for the most part you are completely ignroing what is the matter of contention and coming up with your own wildly off base argument about a claw is a claw.  which again holds not water to the fact that claw blades STATE they change the weapon fron a NATURAL one to a LIGHT SIMPLE one. and again you ignore the fact that feral combat training STATES it gives a users nautral attack a monks unarmed damage bonus.


Im done after this, you keep on with your completely off base argument and I just hope the OP realzies what nonsesne you are spouting and realzie that slapping on claw blades renders his cat-folk claws ligh simple weapons instead of natural ones and therefore makes feral combat training moot.
elecgraystone
member, 707 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 03:30
  • msg #18

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

YOU keep ignoring how you figure out claw blade damage. If you are unable to use the natural weapon damage to figure out how much it deals, then you can cause NO damage. No amount of holding your breathe and stomping your feet changes the fact that you have to look at the natural attack for it's damage and it's effected by the feat.

I suggest that you bring this up on the boards for the game itself. I went there and looked over several threads on the issue. For instance:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o...s-and-Feral-Combat#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p...ved-natural-attack#1
I see plenty of people there that seemed to have figured out that you have to use the claw damage for the weapon and that includes things that buff that attack.

EDIT: Here's another thread that says the says thing... :P
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ofym?ARG-Claw-blades#1
This message was last edited by the user at 04:51, Tue 11 Feb 2014.
LoreGuard
member, 498 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 05:12
  • msg #19

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

Ricosuave is correct that your argument that a claw attack is a claw attack does little or no good to your side of the argument, and tends to draw away attention from what might be a viable argument.  The choice of Claw doesn't rewrite the feat to say claw attack instead of specified natural attack.

The part that you might have an argument for is a question of proper stacking of effects.  Once you have added the Claw Blades, you can't apply the Feral Combat training feat.  However, it is not unreasonable for certain things to apply to your base damage, as that base damage would be a property that would exist before you put your blades on, turning the natural attack (the admittedly feral enhanced) one into a light slashing one.  The problem I see is that any feat that implements effects on specific attacks when made, would seem to be attempting to take their effect during the attack time itself.  At that point... it may not apply.  So a perfect example... stunning fist.  The wording of the feat implies it 'applies' at the time of the attack, and at that point, the weapon is no longer a natural attack... it has already been converted.  Things like Monk Damage, are more state driven, so I can see that probably being able to transfer over to the claw blades.

So I think your strongest argument for some of the effects would be the Order of Effects, to try to determine which things might work, and which wouldn't.  Could you potentially combine some effects? Potentially, a amulet of mighty fists (say +1 with flaming ability) and the claw blades could be enchanted as +1 and with Bane (Undead) ability.  This might be able to give you effectively a flaming, undead bane, +1 attacks, with your monk base damage.  Granted, the +1 for the amulet, and the +1 for the blade enchantment, and +1 for the masterwork, would of course, not stack, leaving it as only a single +1 enchantment.

I remember seeing somewhere how a certain set of templates could theoretically be applied to a single character, but they would have to be done in a certain order.  (as they would only be valid in a certain order as one template would change traits of the character's race, making certain other templates no longer valid to be applied afterwards.  I think we would have a similar situation here.
elecgraystone
member, 708 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 05:35
  • msg #20

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

The main problem with this item is that it's two items at the same time. A natural weapon and a light slashing one. I came to my own conclusion then went to the website to see if there was a FAQ. Not finding one, I looked at the threads on the item. In the end, I came to the conclusion that it's still a claw and things that effect claws still do so.

Here are some quotes from the links I posted. Note none of them are mine (user name the same as here).

"The claw blades have no weapon damage, they do whatever damage the natural attack does. Adding the claw blades doesn't invalidate the feat, it alters how the natural weapon can be used in combat."

"That's correct. Claw Blades simply change how the Claws are used in combat.

Feats that apply to Claws, still apply to them, even after modified by Claw Blades.

That's the way to think about them, as Claw modifications."

"At no point is "natural attack" a prereq for any of the feats. It isn't for Weapon Focus nor is it in the prereq for FCT. Whether it is a light slashing weapon or a light B/P/S weapon with the natural weapon designation is irrelevant to the feats in question. All that matters is it is a "claw" attack. As long as that requirement is fulfilled, FCT treats the "claw" attack with claw blades as a 'Monk Weapon' and so can be used with FoB." FCT=Feral Combat, FoB=flurry of blows

Feel free to come to your own conclusion. I suggest you hit the paizo site and type in a search for any questions you have. For instance, there are threads  about claw blades and amulets of mighty fists. Heck, just type claw blades and you'll have lots to look at.
Flint_A
member, 480 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 06:12
  • msg #21

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

Like LoreGuard said, it's an order issue.

If you try to apply the feat after the weapon, the feat won't work. It wants a natural weapon, you no longer have one.

However, I see no reason to do it in that order. The feat is something you have, the item is something that gets added on. As far as I'm concerned; the feat augments your natural attack, THEN the weapon turns your augmented attack into an enchantable weapon. There shouldn't be any problem with that. You put the enchantments on the blade, not on your claws. So if you have both, and you remove the weapon at any time, the feat works. There's no reason it should stop working after you put on the blades.

The point of the blades is that they can be enchanted. The type issue is just so people don't say "BUT NATURAL ATTACKS CAN'T BE ENCHANTED".

In effect, the feat is on your claws but the enchantments are on your blades. The blades then use the damage of your claws. Your claws don't disappear when you put on blades, they're right under the blades.

This is just like a human monk wearing a gauntlet(Except that he wouldn't be proficient with it, but that's easily solved.) or brass knuckles. The weapon can be enchanted, but they still act like an unarmed strike.(Spelled out explicitly in the gauntlet, heavily implied in the knuckles.) The damage listed on the table is simply the regular unarmed damage of a creature that size, there is no reason a monk would still hit 1d3 with either weapon. You calculate the damage of the fist(or claw) first, then you add on the weapon.
elecgraystone
member, 709 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 06:34
  • msg #22

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

In reply to Flint_A (msg # 21):

In all honesty, I find it easier than that. I agree with "At no point is "natural attack" a prereq for any of the feats. It isn't for Weapon Focus nor is it in the prereq for FCT. Whether it is a light slashing weapon or a light B/P/S weapon with the natural weapon designation is irrelevant to the feats in question. All that matters is it is a "claw" attack. As long as that requirement is fulfilled, FCT treats the "claw" attack with claw blades as a 'Monk Weapon' and so can be used with FoB."

It only needs to be a natural weapon option. Once you pick the attack, it stays. Replace the attack with the general text.

Feral Combat Training (Combat)

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons claw. While using the selected natural weapon claw, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon claw with your flurry of blows class feature.

Claw falls into two groups, natural or light slashing. Swapping groups didn't change it's name, it's still claw and that's all that's needed. Claw is still on the list of natural attacks, and still a viable option for the feat after the blades go on. A claw attack is a claw attack.

PS: if you don't agree, that's fine but as you said, it still works when used under the correct order. Win/win in my book. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 07:06, Tue 11 Feb 2014.
Flint_A
member, 481 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 07:03
  • msg #23

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

I don't agree, but frankly that's like debating whether this color is properly called eggshell or off-white. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, beg your GM until it works.
elecgraystone
member, 710 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 07:14
  • msg #24

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

In reply to Flint_A (msg # 23):

Yeah, I know some don't agree with that line of thought which is why I tried to explain the other way it works. This item could really use a lot of clean up/FAQ, but they seem to be in no big rush to do so.
doomedfate
member, 748 posts
Proud 2 be a Fur
I... am Alsend Drake
Thu 17 Apr 2014
at 02:41
  • msg #25

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

when were these two books relesed? If fct was after catfolk, it could be they simply missed it in balanceing. If thets so, then the change is just so you can enchnt it, and the effing up of feats and na combos was unintentional.
elecgraystone
member, 731 posts
Thu 24 Apr 2014
at 04:53
  • msg #26

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

In reply to doomedfate (msg # 25):

No, it was just that the clawblades were poorly worded. You just have to look at the ratfolks tailblade to see how it should be worded and it's in the same book. I have a feeling that different people worked on those races and only the ratfolk person knew how to write it correctly.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2118 posts
Just an average guy :)
Thu 24 Apr 2014
at 07:34
  • msg #27

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

There are many things in D&D and Pathfinder that would seem to work together, but don't.

A claw weapon (at least the one's I'm familiar with in D&D, I may not be looking at the same one that you are) sets your damage to a particular value.  A monk using a d6 claw weapon to deal damage when she has a d8 unarmed strike is putting herself at a disadvantage.  "But she just strapped metal knives to her hand, how can she be doing less damage?"  That's just the way the rules work, "For example, if a monk wears a spiked gauntlet, her unarmed attacks aren't enhanced in any way, but she could use the spiked gauntlet in a two-weapon attack."

This should help explain everything...
Unarmed Attacks Part 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a
Unarmed Attacks Part 2: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
Unarmed Attacks Part 3: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a
An oldie, but then 3.5 is an oldie itself.
Flint_A
member, 490 posts
Thu 24 Apr 2014
at 14:03
  • msg #28

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

Genghis the Hutt:
"But she just strapped metal knives to her hand, how can she be doing less damage?"


Easy, because she doesn't know how to use it. A monk doesn't normally "claw" with her unarmed attacks. The weapon requires an entirely different style of combat. Normally D&D doesn't care that far about detail(other than proficiency) but the whole point of the monk is that they train really hard about this stuff.
elecgraystone
member, 732 posts
Fri 25 Apr 2014
at 04:00
  • msg #29

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 27):

To me it would seem normal that "strapp[ing] metal knives to her hand" would do less damage for a master of unarmed attacks. It's much the same as why steel toes boots aren't going to make my greatsword attacks do more damage.

The nice thing about feral combat is that it allows that master of unarmed combat to train in their natural attacks right along with their unarmed strikes and do the same damage.
doomedfate
member, 749 posts
Proud 2 be a Fur
I... am Alsend Drake
Thu 19 Jun 2014
at 04:22
  • msg #30

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 26):

I'd like to point out one odd thing I noticed in making my Claw-using Catfolk Monk for a game. In Weapon Finesse, it said Natural Weapons are Light Blades, thus meaning Claw Blades are only there because you can't enchant the claws directly.
Roaming Shadow
member, 287 posts
Thu 19 Jun 2014
at 05:16
  • msg #31

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

doomedfate:
In reply to elecgraystone (msg # 26):

I'd like to point out one odd thing I noticed in making my Claw-using Catfolk Monk for a game. In Weapon Finesse, it said Natural Weapons are Light Blades, thus meaning Claw Blades are only there because you can't enchant the claws directly.


Well, technically, you can enchant your fists and natural weapons with an Amulet of Mighty Fists, unless I'm mistaken, but it's limited as it can only provide a total of +5 in enchantment effects (enhancement bonus and special abilities combines), whereas a magic weapon can have up to +10 (+5 straight enhancement bonus and +5 if special abilities).
elecgraystone
member, 762 posts
Thu 19 Jun 2014
at 06:41
  • msg #32

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

Well you CAN enchant your arm. You just have to chop it off and replace it with a clockwork prostheses.

http://www.archivesofnethys.co...ockwork%20Prosthesis
LoreGuard
member, 535 posts
Fri 20 Jun 2014
at 03:36
  • msg #33

Re: Pathfinder: Feral Combat Training

Actually, at looking at the SRD and PRD, it says that natural attacks are considered light weapons... not light blades.  Most would probably interpret that as being within the context of the Weapon Finesse feat, rather than a broad stroked statement of what natural attacks are considered as a default.  Light weapons only according to the rules only do STR bonus extra damage, but some natural attacks are more like two handed weapons and do 1.5x STR bonus to attack, but for purpose of the feat, they are fill the required[being light].
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