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10:31, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

Posted by Ravidge
Ravidge
member, 10 posts
Wed 8 Nov 2017
at 04:25
  • msg #1

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

So designing a continent right now and eventually maybe a world to run some games. A brief summary of concept: It will be a rather corrupt world filled with many contradictions and fanatics. Where religion and religious ideals are a very big deal though perhaps not fairly enforced. Many arcane classes are outlawed; Sorcerers, hexblades, warlocks are all seen as devil and demon worshipers and burned at the stake; Archivists, truenamers, Shadowcasters, and binders(maybe others) are seen as apostates and similarly burned at the stake; and what is left over is tightly controlled by countries, religions, and perhaps some over arching organizations. In this case spells over level 3 are tightly controlled and sparse to the point that many countries, religions and organisations may only have a few spells over level 3 which they guard as national treasures.

My aim is to make religious classes more focused on the intricacies of their respective religions and how the goals of the gods interplay and conflict with politics. As well as make wizards a more interesting class since thematically they are supposed to be focused around research and understanding of the world but have been reduced to walking weapons that automatically evolve in power as they kill.

As such I have been milling over a revamp of how wizards gain spells. I want to make getting spells interesting and challenging but still possible and better utilize the skills given to wizards. Here is the frame work please let me know your thoughts:

Wizards:
Healing is added to wizards skill list and its use is explained below.
Upon gaining levels wizards do not automatically gain new spells. The two new spells shown in the PHB are representative of resources offered as congratulations upon advancement by the organization backing said wizard. level 1, 2, and 3 spells from the PHB are considered common enough that almost all organizations have them and they can be bought by wizards that do not belong to any organization, though this often takes greasing the correct wheels. Similarly a wizard without an organization would gain no free initial or new spells upon leveling up and would have to obtain them in some other way. To continue gaining new spells beyond 3rd level spells wizards must bind themselves ever closer to the organizations supporting them and achieve ever greater merits. Furthermore, not all organizations are equal and many have few higher level spells. With that said there are of course other ways of obtaining new spells, such as finding them in ancient ruins, obtaining other wizards’ spellbooks, scrolls, or even performing tests and experiments. As such wizards without backing and high leveled wizards tend to struggle greatly for each new spell and guard them zealously once obtained.

Testing and experiments covers many different things. For example analyzing and decomposing a spell to create a better understanding of magic and applying that understanding to creating a new spell. Or capturing a creature with spell-like abilities and performing experiments and even dissections to learn the secrets behind their skills. Some desperate or perhaps crazy wizards even try random combinations of words, gestures, and materials; Though this method is highly unreliable because of the inherent danger involved. Mechanically, these methods function by use of skill checks.

In the case of analyzing spells: decipher script, spellcraft, and knowledge arcane or planes depending on the spell. Each analysis takes a week per spell level of spell being evaluated to analyze, formulate, and test the new spell. All skill checks are made together each day and must be passed together 3*spell levels(of new spell) times during this time period in order to successfully learn the new spell. Furthermore, the new spell will be inline with the old spell analyzed and the original spell must be one in your spellbook.

The experimenting on creatures requires healing, related knowledge, and spellcraft skill checks. A creature experimented on in this way tends to be a useful test subject for 1 week per spell level. During this time all three checks must be made each day and passed together on once per spell level.
In both cases extraordinary successes can also give bonuses to said skills.(after rolling a natural 20, roll a 1d100 getting a 95+ gives a permanent +1 to said skill.)
Mechanically random trial error is based on 3d100, a 3 is automatic disintegration and 300 is the successful creation of a new spell. Everything in between is something varying from something interesting happening, nothing, and varying levels of injury.

Furthermore, there are still other methods, such as bargaining with demons, devils, fey, or other such intelligent beings. Wizards are also capable of learning spells from sorcerers and other arcanists.
Though these methods take a bit of time and understanding to convert the spells over from other intelligent beings or arcane spell models they are still much easier and faster than aforementioned testing or experimentation.
Mechanically, it takes one day per spell level being learned and requires a successful Spellcraft check.

I am still mulling over DCs I want it to be challenging and scale-able to succeed but not impossible for the testing or experimentation. In the case of learning spells from intelligent beings and other spell casters I am thinking the check should be similar to identifying a spell and the key is the time taken as well as the tutelage of the teacher.

Please let me know if you have any thoughts or ideas.
GreyGriffin
member, 174 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Wed 8 Nov 2017
at 16:32
  • msg #2

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

The 2 spells per level that wizards normally get are the results of the research and experimentation that they do off-camera, similar to how fighters are assumed to practice and maintain their weapons, and clerics are assumed to go through the normal rituals of their faith.

Putting that research on-camera is best used to serve some kind of story purpose, rather than just grinding mats to expand your spellbook - unless expanding your spellbook is the story.  (Wizard pokemon?  Filing that away for later...)
The focus on experimenting on creatures might also raise the "ick" hackles.  It also has the unfortunate and ironic side effect of in all probability making Wizards less versatile than sorcerers - without a direct source, Wizards' spellbooks will almost certainly be smaller and more limited.

With any of these systems that disallow abilities without provenance, you also run into the problems of genesis.  If creating spells is so reliant on observation, how do spells without observable analogues get created in the first place?  Is creating a new spell actually a result of random chance?  Do skilled arcanists actually stand no better chance of creating a new spell than rank novices?

Furthermore, with all these knobs to turn and levers to pull to expand their prowess in various ways, which are ultimately self-serving and not story-serving, where does that leave Fighters, Rogues, and the like?  Are they advantaged, because they don't need to hunt down secret techniques or observe skilled fighters to advance their skills?  Or are they disadvantaged, since their advancement and progression does not provide them with the opportunity to capture spotlight time?  If you did require these advancement spotlights for nonmagical progression, would you have any time to explore a story?
Knight_Vassal
member, 373 posts
Wed 8 Nov 2017
at 18:37
  • msg #3

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

 Let me start with neat idea regardless of ability to pull it off here.

List of things that you actually need to pull this off

1) Players willing to do hoop jumping for what is otherwise free in every other game.
2) XP. You have to generous enough with the xp awards to justify level advancement. I can not express that enough.
3) The understanding that this needs to be "playtested" some. This is more on your part than the players. To get a system that works you are gonna have to experiment at least a little.
4) Probably either an all mage group, which would give you a larger pool but less quality players, or the rest of the party needs a reason to keep the mage alive. Not just any reason will do either.
5) I must ask what are the clerics and god of Magic doing while the followers of the god are being butchered?
6) So what could be the basic plot broad strokes nothing specific.
Ravidge
member, 11 posts
Thu 9 Nov 2017
at 17:20
  • msg #4

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

So this will be a long ramble and hopefully I will have answered your comments and added more to be commented on?

So to an extent I am creating these rules so I can run all wizard games that would have a better focus on development of their power. I would be giving experience for said research and having that be a focus in such a game. Furthermore, that is why I don’t just have one way to obtain spells, while yes performing experiments on creatures to understand their spell like and perhaps supernatural abilities is limiting you can still join an organization, barter with intelligent creatures/arcanists, or study spells. When I said, you can only get alike spells from testing a spell I should be more specific on my meaning, what I meant is you can’t expect to study an evocation spell to have a resulting divination or necromancy spell. But I don’t see any argument against someone who has studied necromancy spells and has a firm understanding of their principles not being able to create a new and different necromancy spell. Also, when I said scaling DCs I meant scaling with spell levels not becoming more difficult as you gain levels. For example having a 27DC(+4 int bonus 4skill points 19roll) check for a level one spell. Similarly 43DC(+4int 20 skill 19roll) check for a ninth level spell. On the surface, they seem just as demanding, but with all the potential for bonuses for a level 17 character it should end up being easier. The real question here is what DCs are actually reasonable and like you said most likely this will come down to play testing

Yes, I do agree I am throwing out a roadblock but I am planning on throwing out other roadblocks too. Let me give a bit more info about the world, gods, and some of the restrictions.  The world I am creating is one of clear divides and often strong hatred between the races and the gods representing them. While Elves, humans, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings still tend to be found living together there are staggering differences in treatment depending on which race is in power in that region. Furthermore, slavery is common place in many areas and it isn’t uncommon to see intelligent creatures being traded and treated as livestock.

The gods are not omnificent and all knowing who have full control over their domains. They are simply mortals that have been elevated to godhood and have a firmer grasp of these domains and concepts than people at most they can hear a few words of a conversation whenever someone mentions their name and besides that are left to high level divination to find out more. They fight and squabble amongst themselves over the faith of the masses and have little direct control in the prime material plane. Though they could send down an avatar it would consume most of their power to do so and leave them wide open to be killed by the other gods. So instead they bestow a bit of their divine force to chosen to further their own goals. As such divine power is a gift only bestowed upon their followers that can just as easily be taken away. The gods have full control over divine magic and view arcane as a threat to their power. Since they do not have the ability to get rid of arcane magic from the world they instead decided to try and restrict and control it. So classes like sorcerers who get their power from their bloodlines and warlocks who get it from deals with powerful spirits are deemed as the enemies of the gods and chased down and killed as devil worshipers.

Divine power (cleric, paladin, favored souls…) power is given by the gods for furthering their gods goals. So you could spend all day killing your way through a dungeon and not gain a single level in these classes unless there is something important to your god hidden there.

The study of arcane magic is a struggle. The different religions by far have the largest breath of spells, especially those associated with gods of magic but they enforce ever tighter control over wizards in their care. Furthermore, they outlaw any forms of magic that they can’t control, and portray them as evil monsters to the masses.

In the end classes such as rogues, fighters, and barbarians are the easiest way to power, but also the weakest in comparison. In the time it takes for a one of them to kill the man in charge of the army the wizard or cleric could probably have destroyed the army… Also because of the setup of the world magical items are much less common especially among non-magical classes.

As far as wizards offending the gods by experimenting on their followers that is all a calculated risk. If you are already an enemy just based on your race (say human wizard and ogre mage) what do you care about offending the ogre’s god? Also not all creatures/ races have gods to begin with since the gods do all they can to prevent new ones from rising up.
Rothos1
member, 487 posts
Thu 9 Nov 2017
at 22:09
  • msg #5

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

So kind of Dark Sun with the wizards?
Knight_Vassal
member, 377 posts
Fri 10 Nov 2017
at 03:16
  • msg #6

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

In reply to Rothos1 (msg # 5):

Similar it seems to me yes.

So the basic idea is an all wizard game then. Well to be honest I would be a terrible fit in that metagaming aside. It would make sense to get a team together and have each study one arc of the wheel. In that way they can trade spells with in the party and make things seriously easier. Just saying.
Rothos1
member, 488 posts
Fri 10 Nov 2017
at 04:25
  • msg #7

[Advice/Interest D&D 3.5]

So creating a PC organization then. I think that in order to pull it off you would either need tightly controlled access to magic research institutes, with high creation DCs for not having access to research material or make innovation hard by forcing several different levels of a spell having to be created by refinement creating hermit wizards who crank out spells via research. E. G. Fire missile a variation of magic missile becomes Flame gout a 2nd level spell, then that becomes Fireball. Note, I'm not letting wizards recreate divine spells in my idea although they could.
Metamagic feats become more valuable, consider tacking on either Knowledge arcana or Spell craft ranks to its prerequisites
A divine caster would need Knowledge religion instead.
Now, you'd see someone taking Explosive Spell as a Feat to get a little more out of spells they have.
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