Yesterday as I thumped through my old D&D 3.5 Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook I felt once more the urge to run some sort of high-level D&D campaign at some point in the future. I’m the DM of a 16th level Pathfinder campaign at the moment with plans for this game to reach early epic levels at some point, but I have loftier aspirations for this new idea of mine. In this new game player characters would start out at level 20 and quickly climb up the hierarchy until they reach a point at which they will be able to challenge the gods themselves and take their rightful place among them.

The only real question now is what system would be best suited for this idea? I’m going to list the various pros and cons of the different editions below and would appreciate feedback and/or interest any of you might have.

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D&D 3.5

Pro:

- official rules for epic/divine level play as well as examples of epic monsters and gods exists
- the player base should be accustomed to the fact that campaigns may reach high levels and that deities are not invincible and out of reach

Con:

- System is already imbalanced at levels 15+ and grows more so the higher you go
- This editions is pretty old, various source material might not be readily available anymore, perhaps not enough interested players around
- Large time investment for both players and the DM to make this playable



Pathfinder

Pro:

- Huge amount of material available for everyone to access via srd homepage
- More balanced than 3.5 and has more interesting options for characters across the first 20 levels
- There should be more than enough players on rpol who might be willing to give this a shot
- Homemade adaptation of the 3.5 epic rules exist to be used with PF

Con:

- Game mechanics still break down balance-wise at higher levels
- Players are used to having CR 30 enemies as the final capstones of mythic campaigns, might be more difficult to convince them to think out of the box and go even further than this
- Large time investment for both players and the DM to make this playable


D&D 4th

Pro:

- Most balanced of all the systems, even at very high levels
- Official rules for levels 21-30 exist
- Would take the least amount of time to create characters and monsters

Con:

- No rules for gameplay above level 30 available
- Enemies go only up to CR 35, players would need to adjust to the new range of potential opponents
- By far the least liked edition of the game, perhaps not enough players around to warrant such a game



I will leave 5th edition out of this debate for the time being. I think it is still too new for players to have any great interest in this idea. I reckon most of them would much rather play a ‘normal’ high level game first before jumping straight into this craziness.


In the end there are two different approaches to a game of this magnitude in my opinion. If you go with D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder you will need to embrace the chaos and just roll with it. Such a game wouldn’t be a serious one as game balance is not really an option. It would simply be us having fun with ridiculous powerful characters facing even more ridiculous challenges and situations.

D&D 4th on the other hand would be more suited for a real attempt at a balanced and (hopefully) well-executed immortal-level campaign, but I’m pretty sure that there will be far less players who might be up for it.


Any thoughts, suggestions, posts of interest would be very welcome!

I not only love D&D 3.5 but it is also the only system I know... so my vote is for that.
I think that the best option is to limit epic spellcasting/manifesting if you want to be sure that the fun won't be thrown away.
Limiting the available books per character can also help.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:41, Wed 21 June 2017.

As you say: 4th has the rules in place, already. I'd be up for that, but I'd need a day to go over the rules again. It's been awhile, but I have a couple character outlines I never did get a chance to try.

4th Edition. There's a smaller community, yes, but part of why 3.5's community is so large is that the rules are much more open (which I know is considered a feature), which results in a wide range of preferences and approaches, on top of the lack of built-in balance. So, it's hard to imagine a 3.5 game having any kind of coherence - as you say, you'd have to just roll with the crazy. I wouldn't even bother with actual rules, just assume the characters and their opposition are capable of pretty much anything and have fun describing that.

That said, I don't have much experience with actual gameplay at epic levels in 4th edition, though I'd like to have some. I gather that the game becomes very easy for the PCs if the challenges are kept the same as at early levels, i.e. everyone on foot and in range and nothing crazy about the environment. My understanding is that the PC options and combos synergize like crazy, whereas the monsters don't have as much of that, so they get steamrolled.

But I don't know that firsthand. Keep me posted and let me know if you would like help making this happen.

Thanks for your feedback so far, much appreciated! Interesting to see that two of the first three posts are advocates for 4th edition. Didn't expect that to be honest.

I can definitely say that I'd only be interested in a high level campaign if it was in 4th edition. The amount of sheer effort and rules referencing for level 20+ characters in the other editions makes me avoid playing at those levels in those editions.

4ed feels too samey to me. Levels 21-30 don't seem epic, they just have big numbers and feels more like lower level gestalt (cause larger number of options) but with +X to everything. Numbers alone don't make epic. Of course, that is limited exp on my part.

Honestly, I think the epicness will need to come from what is available (and particularly the story) and 3.5 is better for that. I actually played a god in 3.5 once, and despite being under lvl 20 (because I was a weretiger and drow, god of lycanthropes and misfits) I still felt godly.

I also think even doing a few extra things to the rules will really add to the experience. A suggestion on my part would be to go lower level but with bonuses to be comparible to high level play. I.E. do level 10 gestalt, double or triple the attribute scores, gain a feat every level, or for the casting classes (and I'd encourage everyone to have one half of their gestalt be casting) would treat the spell slots gained as being for higher spell levels and treat the lower spell levels (each capped slots of course) the same as Pathfinder treats cantrips. Oh, and min level requirements for feats don't apply.

Leaves room for advancement yet feels like being powerful enough to challange, and become, gods.

I give my vote to 3.5.
My thoughts about the cons:

System is already imbalanced at levels 15+ and grows more so the higher you go: Yes if the problem is casters. Just limit them. Allow the enhancement bonus items and the tomes for inherent bonus and little more items that improve/enhance/change spellcasting. Make the characters work hard for spells/powers beyond those in the basic books.

This editions is pretty old, various source material might not be readily available anymore, perhaps not enough interested players around: True. But the material is extremely available much to Wizards of the Coast dismay. And I think that most of the remaining 3.5 players would jump to an opportunity like this. This can be the last opportunity to play in an epic game in that system!

Large time investment for both players and the DM to make this playable: And this is a con because...? Discussion and talks between players and DMs can only help to consolidate the group.

If you want to beat up Gods and take their place, 4E is the way to go. It's the only edition that supports level 21+ in the core for a reason.

Most of 3.5's rules for epicness are free:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicBasicsAndClasses.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSkills.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicFeats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMagicItems.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/...tersAndObstacles.htm

i run two such games and play in a third, all in 3.5 and/or pathfinder. it is totally doable.

i believe that in all three epic spell casting is nixed (i do not play a full spellcaster, so am not entirely sure on that game). i'm considering using epic spellcasting as a deific ability that will open up when they start becoming gods. maybe. the players are loving it so far, though, so maybe not.

one of the games i run is fairly low optimization but i allow pretty much any source. power level is fairly low right now (as much as epic allows anyway) which means encounters still feel challenging and it's still possible to get in over their heads. the other game i run, which was started by someone else, is a ridiculously high epic level gestalt game. they aren't gods, but they may as well be. that game is all about story. combat is more cinematic. rolls and bookkeeping are less important.

if you go with 3.5 or pathfinder, i would also recommend you not allow epic spellcasting. as characters become more powerful, maybe shift from the traditional combat round to more of a cinematic style. if you want characters to feel more powerful, offer more source material, and increase ability scores and number of feats. the latter two are largely what limit the power of high level characters, and the former lets the players have freedom of many options to put together the cool character they want.

Thanks for all the insight and suggestions! Will mull it over for some time, search the internet for some additional opinions and see where my final preference will land, 3.5 or 4E.

My vote would be for 3.5 as I'm also more familiar with it. I feel 4th ed is only combat oriented. 3.5 more versatile for doing other things. If you go 4th ed ill blow my books off and breeze through them again to get familiar once more.

Yes, D&D 3.5 for the win. An epic and mythical system for an epic and mythical campaign.

For the time being I decided to go with a 4E game. Depending on how well that goes and how much time I will have in the future, I may run a second game for 3.5 about this in the future.

Thanks again for the replies and the interest. For anyone else who plays 4th edition and might want to take a look, here is my 'Player's Wanted' thread:

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