I have a dream... a dream where the delvers of "Kill monsters and take their loot" renown are joined with the acrid smoke and deafening cracks of the late 19th Century.  Where goblins brandish pepperboxes to terrorize innocent civilians, and wilderness scouts haunt the frontier with lever-action rifles.

And yet, all the trappings of conventional Dungeon Fantasy are not lost.  Magic is still employed by those so inclined, and the gods grant boons to their faithful when properly supplicated.  Adventurers gird themselves not only with their trusty revolvers, but also with stalwart breastplates and the cold steel of a broadsword for when the situation demands it.

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Here is my plan:  GURPS Dungeon Fantasy meets High-Tech at Late TL 5.  With a sprinkling of published alternate rules (such as Divine Favor and The Last Gasp, a side of published expanded rules (from sources like Martial Arts and Low-Tech), and a dash of house rules, drop a party of powder-armed protagonists into a converted rendition of Paizo's inaugural adventure path, The Rise of the Runelords.


So the question is:  Does the notion of saving Sandpoint with equal measures of six-shooters, steel, and sorcery have sufficient appeal to warrant such a preparatory undertaking?


I'd love to hear what kind of interest this sparks, but if the notion of alternate or house rules makes you blanch, take note:  I'm flexible.  I have my preferences, and will happily make a case for them, but until the kick-off of the Swallowtail Festival itself they are open for negotiation.  (And even after that, if there's a need to rectify something.)  I'm more interested in getting a group of players invested in the game (and that includes buy-in on the mechanical side) than I am on imposing rules that folks don't want, so don't let that turn you off—I'm at least willing to come to the table on those issues to make sure that the entire group is going to have fun.

I'm down for Steam/Deiselpunk if that's close enough to what you're envisioning as you mentioned in a group we're in. I think Wildcards are very appropriate for Punk-y games, and I like the idea of including Impulse Buys or Power Ups 7. Not that I'd go so far as to say it'd be a dealbreaker to disclude them, I do like that uber(ish) competency is a possibility though.

Also, I'm very fond of the idea of using Metatronic Generators for tech that doesn't quite exist per se, as it has a dollar cost based on the CP cost an appropriate ability would have. I can't go into detail further without "character calling". I just want to say that the Pepperbox is the perfect weapon for a goblin to brandish... at least if it has the shortcomings of the Allen.

I ended up settling on late TL 5 rather than on the more "diesel" TL 6 for a variety of reasons, but the biggest is probably that I want to make sure that "conventional" combat still has a role to play.  TL 5 weapons seem to strike a great balance of "enough power and/or capacity to be worth specializing in, but long-enough reloading times (and low-enough Rate of Fire) that they won't be the only weapon worth having competence in."

At this point I can't say I'm comfortable diving into the Weird Science / Punk side of "fantasy with tech," unfortunately... although I honestly wasn't aware that there was a Pyramid article on the subject.  I'll have to add that issue to my "To-Read" list for the next couple of weeks and see how things shake me.  I won't entirely rule out "Punkish" flavor, but it's not currently in the cards—the adventure will be enough of a challenge to convert with out.  =D

As far as Wildcard skills go, I'll have to read up on them more... I'm not as familiar with them as I should be, and I've never used them before, so I'll have to get a better handle on how they're set up and how they're integrated in the Dungeon Fantasy (and possibly Monster Hunters) lines to see what that might look like.


And for Goblin Pepperboxes, well.  Goblins aren't exactly known for high-quality worksmanship.  I wouldn't put some malfunctions past them in the least...

Yeah, the only notable historical exception being the Gatling gun, but that problem can be solved by the caveat that belt feeding is more practical because magazine technology hasn't really been invented yet.


It's actually also in GURPS Psi-Tech too as "Psychotronic Generators". They charge $2500 per character point for stuff. So if (hypothetically speaking) a RoF 3 "Rotary Cannon" were built on 50 CP, it would cost G$125K. And the player wouldn't actually spend the CP, that's just what they'd use to determine the price.


Basically, they're casually mentioned in DF, and in MH you get 1 pseudo "wildcard point" for use with things like Buying Successes, Flesh Wounds, etc per 12 points in the Wildcard skill. The Power Ups book I mentioned goes far more into detail than MH, but I don't really think you need any more than MH's rules on it.

This sounds interesting. Not a huge fan of the Last Gasp rules, but not a deal breaker.

Again, it's negotiable.  I like them because it gives an ebb-and-flow to combat in contrast to the RAW's predilection for uninterrupted thrash-action, and because it gives a couple of potential maneuvers (particularly Evaluate and All-Out Defense) a legitimate role in combat.  I've used them in low-tech arena games in the past and found that they worked brilliantly.

On the other hand, they make things like Extra Effort exorbitantly costly in their execution.  Which might not necessarily be a bad thing (I'm honestly not about EE in the first place), as there are and will be abundant other cinematic options... but being able to drop a +2 on a Feverish Defense is always nice for PC preservation (doubly so when it's a dodge against gunfire...)

At the end of the day, it'll depend on what the general consensus among players is, but obviously I'd hold out hope that people would be willing to give it a waggle.  =D

If I can drum up enough interest in this, I'll get something started... just want to see if there's enough enthusiasm for the idea to be worth the while, first.

I haven't really looked it over, so I'm neutral about it.

That sounds cool. If you don't mind a complete newbie to GURPS, I'd be in for a game like that.

Glad to see a bit of interest percolating.  I'll start pulling stuff together in the next couple of days.

For my own benefit, what are folks' thoughts on character templates?  GURPS "thematic lines" like Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters make good and extensive use of templates based on genre archetypes rather than completely unrestricted character-building, but obviously neither of those quite entirely fits into "TL 5 Six-Shooters-and-Sorcery" adventuring.  Would people be interested in me putting together some adapted templates for the sake of character creation, or is the general desire more of the "free range character-building" variety?

Building characters is one of the key ways to learn the system, so I'd prefer to build my own.

Just to clarify, the way that GURPS templates are generally set up is not "Pregenerated Characters" but rather "Spend 20 points however you want from among the following abilities.  Pick 15 more points from among the next batch of abilities.  Here's a list of six or seven skill packets—choose one and maybe modify it a bit."  (Edit:  In contrast to "Here's 200 points, have fun!")

That said, I'm perfectly happy to go with open-range character building—it means I don't have to design a dozen 200-CP-or-so templates myself.  As long as characters are built with a range of abilities (as DF and MH characters inherently have) as opposed to hyperspecialized glass cannons, etc., I'm going to be happy with whatever comes down the pipe.  Just want to make sure that whichever route is taken is one that people want to take.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:10, Wed 15 Apr 2015.

I keep waffling between tempted and not tempted on this idea.  I enjoy GURPS, in general, but DF always feels like it's just a little over the top.

Do you intend to use the DF method of breaking magic out into a dozen subsets?

Actually, tell me more about what you envision a typical adventure in this setting looking like?  Are the PCs going to meet in a bar?  Please, not a bar...

I believe pyramids 3-36, 3-53, and 3-74 may have some help. There's also the one on Cliffhangers, but I don't remember which number that one is. But it is true that the DF and MH bulds aren't perfect. Personally I think standard magic should go die in a fire, and be replaced entirely with a choice between RPM, Wildcard COlleges, or some Power based magic like Sorcery, but I wouldn't hold other players to that ideal.

I also think "lens points" should be allowed to be used on races.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:43, Wed 15 Apr 2015.

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 02:18, Thu 16 Apr 2015.

Which one is Wildcard magic again?  Is that the one where you have a wildcard skill in each college and use that for spellcasting?

In general, I like the more freeform magic schools more than the rote stuff, too.  I just never liked the straightjacketing of characters into "cleric", "druid", and "wizard".

I still need to do a close review of the DF treatment/handling of magic, but my personal preference is to avoid the "standard" GURPS magic system (I come down on the same side of that issue as steelsmiter:  the standard magic rules can go die in a fire and I wouldn't miss them).  Given my druthers, I would lean towards Ritual Path Magic (originally laid out in Monster Hunters and detailed in GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic), but I'm open to other suggestions.

And of course, NPCs might make use of Magic as Power if they have adventure-relevant abilities that have no other easy parallel in whatever system is used.


Happily, and no meeting in a bar (although the set-piece town has several of them for you).  One thing that I'm not flexible on is that the PCs all need to have a reason for being present at the start of the adventure and for being involved in what goes on.  Ideally, PCs would already know at least some of each other before the adventure even begins.  While the campaign begins at a festival, the action doesn't take long to kick in, so pre-existing relationships and legitimate investment in the events that transpire would go a long way towards eliminating the "You all meet in a tavern to answer the local archmage's Help Wanted ad" stereotype.

My intent is to use Paizo Publishing's Rise of the Runelords adventure path as the starting point, and then modify it (as extensively as necessary) to fit into the dual requirements of GURPS and TL 5.  For folks who aren't familiar with it, the RotR adventure path is very much in the vein of "traditional" d20 sword-and-sandals campaigns, but more than pulls its weight in the "flavor" department.  Spoiler-free Synopsis:  Bad Stuff starts happening, Ancient Evil Magics, Bad Guys with Clear Motivations, BBEG returns from dormant slumber to get his groove back, PCs get caught up and hijinks ensue.  The whole thing starts fairly local-scale, gradually building in scope and epicness.  From a D20 perspective, the whole thing is intended to start PCs at Level 1 and carry them all the way into the high-teens, level-wise, if that helps to orient you.

I suppose if I had to take my knowledge of the adventure path and distill it into a "typical adventure", it would be "PCs catch wind of bad things, go investigate and/or kill them, and in the process catch wind of more bad things, rinse and repeat."  In proper Dungeon Fantasy fashion, there is a large amount of killing things and at least a medium amount of taking their stuff, but there is a legitimate story behind it all rather than a picaresque mash-up of shenanigans.


I feel you there.  I struggle to find a good balance between "Well, things should be heroic" and "Dammit that is just not plausible."  I want PCs to be heroes, but I don't want them to be superheroes—I'm a simulationist at heart, so it's tough for me embrace over-the-top cinematic styles.  I even have a hard time with Weapon Master and Gunslinger, and (again, given my personal preference druthers) would throw out everything cinematic altogether and just say "Look, stuff is realistic, but magic is here too, now go knock yourselves out."  That said, in the spirit of 1) trying to cool my jets about rigidly simulationist attitudes and generally calming down, and 2) having heroes who can do heroic things, I'm trying to be more flexible in terms of what I allow, cinematic-wise.

As with most things, at the end of the day it'll (hopefully) end up being a mutual agreement between me and all of the players, and we'll all have a set of rules we're happy with (or at least not actively unhappy with).
This message was last edited by the user at 19:55, Wed 15 Apr 2015.

Matta fact, it is that one :D. Either it or RPM are solid candidates in my book, although I have other ideas, so I may or may not be actually playing a mage.

Honestly, I wouldn't have any issue with that, either.  Weapon Master and Gunslinger usually end up being a "tax" for characters that might use them.  At that point, everyone's special so no one is special.

Plus, if you write them out of the base rules, you can always say "oh, and this magic sword grants you the weapon master advantage while you wield it" and have an instantly desirable magic item.

That said, I do like wildcard skills.  They are rarely a savings, but do a good job of giving you a low level of proficiency in a list of things "anyone in your field should know".  See that learned sage?  He has a wildcard skill that represents his wide, but relatively shallow knowledge from reading.  See that swordsman?  He's at least basically proficient with all melee weapons.  To get to true mastery of anything, you have to break it out as a separate skill, though.

sorry about that guys. I hope it gets cleared up, I don't know what happened.

  Absolutely.  The only area where things like Weapon Master (in particular) come into play that might be nice to have is its role as a "gateway" to cinematic skills and techniques (like Dual-Weapon Attack)—which can still be circumvented in other ways (ranging from "You can't learn cinematic perks and techniques" to "Yes you can, you just don't need a separate advantage to "unlock" them").


I'll read up more on Wildcard skills tonight.  If people are generally in favor of them, and as long as they don't "break" anything, I don't anticipate it being a problem.

Also, steelsmiter... Yikes...  =P

Oh, after looking at it... RPM and Wildcard College have distinct feels to them.  RPM requires you to be good at magic in general, and then lets you focus on schools.  Picking up multiple schools is not particularly difficult.  Wildcard College makes you good at one college of magic and has little/no bleed-over to other schools.  Each extra school you learn is just as expensive as the first.

It'd really depend on what the GM's going for.

After refreshing my memory, I've always wanted to try Syntactic Magic (words of power).  Pathfinder sort of tried to introduce a system for it, but it was poorly supported and ultimately weaker than the base magic system.

Whew, alright.  After a fair bit of setup work, I have a board set up for the game in order to continue any optional- and house-rules discussions.  I'm still working on some of the setup (namely, putting together the baseline character creation rules and the more minor house rules and optional rules information), but the big, important stuff is there to get started on.

Folks interested are encouraged to swing by.

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Note that most of the posts are not publicly visible.  This is deliberate, as a clutter-management system.  If you want to get in on the discussion and ultimately decide not to participate in the game, that's not a problem—I can add you for the preliminary discussion and then remove you if you decide it's not for you.

link to another game

Can I also just say how mind-staggeringly annoying it is that I can't capitalize the "L" in "Link" right there...