Background

I am checking for interest in a V:TR (B&S/GMC rules update) game where PCs are fledgling neonates looking to make their mark on the city.

Characters will have been released from their sires relatively recently, and will NOT be part of a Covenant yet. Selecting and joining a covenant (or choosing to remain independent) will probably be among the first major decisions the PCs make.

There will be very few house rules, but there is one that deserves special attention and should be mentioned upfront, since it's probably one of those 'love it or hate it' kind of house rules.

I have done away with clans entirely. There are no clans, and especially no bloodlines. While I love pretty much everything about the B&S/GMC rules update, I do not like clans or bloodlines in V:TR. Love them in V:TM because they make perfect sense within the overarching metaplot of the story. Do not like them in V:TR because the setup makes no sense to me, least of all how there are only 5 clans but dozens of bloodlines, and nearly every bloodline is better/more powerful than the original clan. Then you have the fact that only 5 clans means characters end up being very similar to one another if they are from the same clan, and I do not like the lack of variety from a GM standpoint.

I don't want to delve into the story/in-game philosophical reasons for the change, that is a subplot you can explore if you want to.

From a mechanical standpoint, the main things that change are Disciplines, Clan Banes, and your extra attribute dot. Those things will be handled in the following manner:

Disciplines - The Beast encourages corruption and degeneration in those it takes a hold of, and does everything possible to facilitate this. Characters each get three 'core' disciplines. You pick the first, you give me a list of three from which I will select the second, and you roll randomly for the third. Note that you may choose only from the standard 10 (no Covenant Disciplines to start, and no bloodline disciplines, EVER).

Please note that I am using the B&S rules that require you to drink from a teacher for each dot of a non-core discipline you wish to learn. So if Vigor is not a core discipline for you, each time you learn a dot of Vigor you must drink the blood of your teacher, with all the attendant dangers (Vitae Addiction, Blood Bond). This is intended to keep power-gaming down and place the emphasis on your own personal gifts from the Beast. Also, since every level of every Discipline is pretty awesome in B&S, with no 'dead weight' or crappy Discipline levels like in previous incarnations of Vampire, I finally feel comfortable enforcing this.

Clan Banes - You pick one that you do NOT want, then you roll randomly for which Bane afflicts your character.

Basically you can avoid one that would wreck your character (e.g. heavily social character getting smacked with the Lonely Curse), but other than that, it's a Curse. It's supposed to suck, and be something you have comparatively little control over.

Attribute Dot - You have one floating attribute dot you can put anywhere. Merry Christmas.


The Basic Premise

The game will take place in a World of Darkness version of Chicago (so no sticklers for real-life city details, please!) and features a fairly classic/traditional setup, with a powerful Prince firmly entrenched at the top of the pyramid of power. Quiet moves are being made though, and upheaval lurks in the background. Even if no one knows it or can see it coming, change is afoot, and established powers and fledglings alike will find themselves shocked by the events yet to come.

It is intended to be a heavily political game that focuses on the characters and their attempts to establish themselves in the city. As a heavily political game, the story will be largely character-driven and sandbox in nature. Players will be presented with the basic setup and given a very general sense of their place in the city, then turned loose to find their own path. For this reason, any players should be extremely comfortable setting their own goals and taking the initiative to figure out how to pursue them.

For example, don't just tell me, 'I want to be a drug dealing power on the streets', you need to have a specific plan for how you're going to become said drug dealing power on the streets. I'm not going to tell you 'if you do X, Y, and Z you will become a drug dealer', I expect you to determine how you plan to go about it and go execute your plan, making adjustments as needed.

If players want a more linear story where I guide the coterie forward myself via NPCs that choice is there, but realize in advance you will be nothing more than pawns for those who seek to use your characters towards their own ends. The NPCs won't be directing your characters out of the goodness of their hearts, after all. If that's the path the players elect to take that's completely fine, but if you want to ever be anything more than disposable pawns, you will need to take your destiny into your own hands.

In short, either play the game or be played by the game. There are no other options.

Regardless, the overall storyline will play out with or without your involvement. It's up to you how much, if anything, you know about the city around you, and how much you want to put your heads down and focus on your own personal projects/goals.

Please note that city construction will be a joint effort controlled and directed by me, but influenced by the players, since unless you choose otherwise, your PCs will have the opportunity to influence (or already have influenced) at least some aspects of its development via the various merits.

(For example, if your character establishes a nightclub downtown where none actually exists, that's fine with me.)

I will draw heavily upon the V:TR sourcebook Damnation City and the board game Vampire: Prince of the City for inspirational material. I find them to be simple enough to be easy to work with, but detailed, elegant, and diverse enough to allow for a wide range of interesting options.


Notes

A few other details, in no particular order.

1. I do not want players who just want to have lots of dots in their stats, but don't want to role-play the political machinations that vampiric society should have (at least according to canon). I'm interested in role-playing hard choices, political struggles and scheming, not just throwing larger numbers of dice at problems.

2. If players want to have the benefits of Allies, Retainers, Resources, etc., they will need to help shoulder some of the creative responsibility, such as detailing their associates, holdings, sources of influence, etc. I feel like having both players and GM invested in the characters, game, and world will help keep things interesting and active for everyone.

3. It will be an Adult game.

4. I am looking for 2-4 players total, and I want concepts that resonate with me as well as the player. In such a character focused game, I've found that if I don't really want to tell that PC's story, I don't have fun either. So a big part of my selection criteria will be simply, do I really want to tell this PCs story? That's hugely subjective I know, but I just want potential players to realize it's not first come first serve, and something I will really screen for is whether or not there's something interesting/creative/unique/intriguing about the character that 'hooks' me.

5. No PvP. A certain amount of dramatic tension is acceptable as PC's agendas might conflict or be mutually exclusive, but for the most part you're a coterie looking to carve out a place in Kindred society together. You recognize you're all more likely to make it successfully if you work together, at least for now. No overt backstabbing, lone wolf-ing, etc. This extends to physical combat, social combat, pickpocketing, basically anything even remotely antagonistic towards one another. No it's not realistic, but I'm not going to sacrifice player unity, cohesion, and a fun time for all on the altar of realism.

6. Expected post rates from me will vary, but average out to about once every 24-48 hours, depending on work flow. Could be more if they're short and to the point, could be less for scenes that require more narrative exposition. I expect similar post rates from the players, and since this is a coterie based game, I will be more proactive about moving the story forward for the group without letting one person hold up progress.

7. I would run RTJs a little bit different than in the past. This is a coterie game, so to ensure group harmony I will accept RTJs (pending Age statements of course) and players will make their characters together to ensure their characters have sufficient reason to stick together through thick and thin. It could be ties from your mortal days, it could be mutual goals, it could be they just naturally get along, whatever. I would say that unless there's a really good reason for it, I would strongly prefer characters plan to join the same Covenant as well. Although since Covenants aren't quite the 'dividing line in the sand' that sects were in V:TM, I would consider allowing players to join different Covenants. Think of them more as political parties than countries; a Carthian and Invictus may join up to oppose another Invictus, and while it wouldn't be the norm since Covenant loyalty would be a real thing, it wouldn't be unusual either. Even Democrats and Republicans cross party lines to work together on their pet issues sometimes.

I realize this does sort of go against the whole 'vampire as lone predator' thing, but I do not want a bunch of solo games, and I do not want a situation where the coterie gets torn apart because players make wildly incompatible characters. I had a very promising game fall apart because I accepted some very awesome characters who were such polar opposites they simply could not align their interests. So to prevent that I want to establish from the very beginning exactly why/how your coterie formed, and why/how you'll stick together through thick and thin.

That's enough information for an opening post, I think. So, any interest?

I'd be very interested! Though I lack the V:tR book, I am familiar with it, and do have the WOD, GMC, and a couple other core books. In short, I am very familiar with the system. Would lack of the V:tR be a problem we couldn't work around?

Not a problem at all.

Frankly, B&S is much more useful than V:TR as most of V:TR's rules are superseded/updated by B&S. And having B&S is not especially important either. I'm looking for role-players who are interested in/able to handle the setting, themes, and concepts, not people who know the rules inside and out.

If you are generally familiar with the system and setting, that's enough. I can help you with the mechanics.

And everyone should have the GMC update, since it's free to download.

I'm potentially very interested. I've been trying to find a vampire game that would focus on younger vampires for a while now.

I am a tad confused about what you're asking for, though. You mention both having a preference for character concepts in the RTJ whose stories excite you as a player, but you also talk about the players developing their characters together to form a cohesive coterie. Could you explain more clearly what you're looking for?

Thanks for the question.

There will be a multi-part RTJ process.

1. I will screen the player. This is really just a short 'what do you want from this game' questionnaire, as follows:



Shouldn't take much work on the player's part, but it gives me an idea of what you're all about. If you say for instance, all you want is combat and politics suck and bore the crap out of you, then uh, you should probably find another game. =)

At this stage I just want to get a sense for whether or not you and I are compatible in terms of the kind of game I want to run and the kind of game you're looking for.


2. I will then allow players to begin working together on their characters to form a cohesive coterie. I reserve the right to have input on the character creation process and reject character submissions if they do not resonate with me as a player.

So to use a facetious example, if the players decide collectively to do nothing but hole up in their mortal homes every night and stare longingly at old photo albums while swapping nostalgic stories of their mortal lives, I reserve the right to tell them to make new characters that are more interesting or find a more interesting purpose/goal for the coterie.

At this stage I want to make sure the coterie as a whole has an interesting story that I want to tell and they want to develop/see unfold.


3. I have noticed that sometimes in the process of collectively making characters, there is a player or character that just does not fit in with the rest of the group. Sometimes it is by conscious choice, sometimes it is just a lack of interest on the player's part in the direction the group is heading. Sometimes the idea is fine, but I have reservations about the execution.

For example, there's nothing wrong with having some muscle in the coterie, even in a politically focused game. But if the muscle is completely incapable of functioning in Kindred society, that player will eventually become bored, so I would want them to diversify/find a way to fit in with what the rest of the group is doing.

If a player can't find something that works for them, myself, and the group, then I would remove them from the game.

At this stage I want to make sure the individual parts of the coterie fit together to make a coherent and cohesive whole. I also want to make sure each player has something interesting for them and me to explore, because while you are a coterie, I expect you to still be individual people, and we will explore your individual stories, but as a general rule you will find that to advance individually you must work together, because you are neonates and that's generally how things work at the bottom of the totem pole.


So to summarize, the RTJ process is threefold. First I approve you as a player to enter the game and begin participating in the discussion. Second I approve the coterie as a whole as having a story we are all excited to explore. Third I approve each character's place/role/fit in the coterie.

As an aside, this will also make it easier to deal with the inevitable player attrition. Upon recruiting new players, I can say, 'Hey, the coterie's general purpose and goals are X, Y, and Z. They are looking for someone who can do A, B, and C. If that interests you, come check us out. If not, best for everyone you don't waste time applying.' This also protects the game because when someone new joins, they're not throwing all the existing work into disarray because they know what to expect, and they know that going in.

Does that make sense?

 Sounds great to me! Link the game when it is up, I'd be happy to apply, and certain we can come to an accord with a character!

Cool, glad you're interested! I'd like to see what the potential player base is like before starting up the game, so I'll give it a few more days.

For those who have seen this and taken a pass, can I get some feedback as to what doesn't catch people's interest?

Is it:

a) No access to GMC/B&S rules?

b) No clans = turnoff

c) Just don't like V:TR (compared to V:TM)

d) General premise/background/idea of game not interesting

e) Everyone's in the 'Measure Unit In International Role Playing' thread

f) Something else

I appreciate any feedback people are willing to take the time to offer, it's always helpful to know what interests people and what doesn't, if not for this game, then for another possible one in the future.
This message was last edited by the user at 02:26, Thu 30 Oct 2014.

Well, I've said I'm interested, though I'm still actually on the fence about joining, so I'll answer anyway.

The only real turn-off for me is the collaborative character development. It isn't that I don't like that as an idea; I do. Working in tandem to create a group of characters that'll mesh well and be able to work towards, if not the same goals, at least the same story in some way that is fun if not cohesive is a good idea.

What bothers me, though, is the idea of committing to a game only to delve into that process and find there's really no place for me in the group. Table talk works really well in a face-to-face group because you're usually all friends. You can sit down with people you know you have something in common with and feel pretty comfortable that you'll be able to find a plotline you'd all like to follow.

The anonymity of online gaming makes that a bit tricky, though. If I join, I won't really know any of the other players, which means its entirely possible that everyone else will want to do something completely different, and while that's ultimately fine, it's difficult to get excited about joining a game when there's a chance you'll just find out you don't fit after a week or two of hashing out ideas.

On the other hand, your low number of responses might just be due to the long posts you've made. In my experience, a lot of people don't read or respond to well-thought-out posts. People are more interested in dropping in to say they're interested and leave it at that.

I was on the fence about posting here, but I have been rooting for your game to get off the ground, so I'll post my interest in such a game as well.

If you've seen the past few Interest Checks, I recently ran an interest check for a Vampire: the Requiem game that runs off creating characters together instead of applying with a character concept like a job application. I got two players that are happy to play and I'm satisfied with a small group and looking to explore what ideas they can come up with together.

However, I said I was running by the old rules as they were printed, as I'm not familiar enough with Blood and Smoke to run a game properly. However, your idea of going clanless intrigued me while I was looking through the interest posts, as I had always thought that the 5 clans were too restrictive of character development and did not give enough room for original characters. The idea of not having clans almost inspired me to post then and state my interest had my unfamiliarity with the rules turned me off from the idea.

However, I am willing to attempt playing by the rules if you need players for the game. It looks like an interesting set of house rules and enthusiasm that I would love to see get off the ground. I'll just need some help when it comes to making a character and applying all the conditions GMC came up with (I don't really understand them, but I guess seeing them in action is a good way to learn).

Now, a note about my particular play style, the one thing that never resonated with me in the Vampire games, no matter what set of rules, was the politics. I'm not a big political planner and schemer, and my characters will usually not be motivated by power. I enjoy roleplaying the struggle of vampirism from an ethical standpoint, and my character ideas usually revolve around nostalgia for the human life that was lost to create the vampire and horror as the vestiges of that life are lost. If a character becomes too focused on gaining political power in the Kindred world without an internal emotional struggle, I start to lose interest in it, because the interesting part of that character has died for me. I never understood the idea of playing any Vampire game as a political power gaming session, so I hope when you announced your vendetta against "dot" collectors, you also had a similar attitude towards the power gamers I've heard of that can only roleplay imaginary politics.
I do not mean to sound melodramatic or forceful, and now that I've posted, I hope you will still want to incorporate me and my play style in any future game you create from the ideas in this thread. I just love listening and telling a good story first and foremost during roleplay, and I think your proposed game has promise to be a good one.

I wish you all the best, and I hope I will see your game up soon! :D

WinterRat,

You asked for feedback from people who have seen this and taken a pass.

I read the proposal and liked nearly everything you had written. There was so much in there I absolutely adore and would be eager to try. But what caused me not to respond was essentially option c. I like VtM quite a bit, but am not enthralled with VtR quite so much, and I do not have GMC/B&S at all. If it had been a VtM game, then I would have definitely sent a RTJ.

But I do wish you and the players you do find well in the game!

Voicing my interest!

Looks interesting - I have V:tR, B&S and GMC though I've not used the latter two much as of yet but the mechanics feel tighter and more thought out than the previous nWoD.

Fine with the setup - should be quite different from the standard game where Clans/Bloodlines can be seen a mile off, makes each Kindred a little more damned and isolated not having an easily identifiable family to belong too.

I will chime in here since you're asking for feedback.

I am interested in the idea, but I am basically giving it a pass due to how unfamiliar I am with nWoD Vampire in general. I recently joined a game basically to get more comfortable with the line, as I've mostly been playing/running nWoD mortal games since it came out. I don't want to join a game where I'm the one holding things back while still catching up on the changes between Masquerade and Requiem.

This is the type of game that, if it were being run months from now after I've gotten myself more familiar with the new vampire line, I would jump at. As it stands, I don't want to take someone else's place and be the bad wheel on the gurney.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, it was extremely helpful!

First things first, game is up. Here is the link:

link to another game


Now a few responses to comments made for those who are still debating/on the fence.



A very fair point. To address that concern, joining the game is an extremely simple process. The only things required are an Age Statement and a very brief player survey. Then you can join the discussion regarding coterie creation and the place of your character ideas within the coterie.

If things start working out, then we'll worry about character background, stats, etc. If things aren't working out for you, then your overall time investment is minimal, just a survey and some brief discussion, and you can drop out with no hard feelings. Hopefully this makes checking out the game in more detail a very low-risk proposition for people.




Rules knowledge (or lack thereof) is not a concern. The game is comparatively simple from a mechanical standpoint, the main rules changes are in GMC and can be downloaded for free off of sites such as DriveThruRPG.

Vampire specific changes, such as some Vampire-specific Merits, Disciplines, etc., I will fill you in on as needed.

If you can role-play, don't worry about the roll-play, I can help with that just fine.




I am totally fine with this. Not sure how other players will feel, but like I said above, joining the game is a pretty low time investment, so feel free to come by, check it out, get in the discussion and see where things are going. If it sounds fun then great, we'll take it deeper. If not, no worries, feel free to drop out since it's just the planning stages, and maybe a future game would be more suited to your preferences.




Thanks for the feedback! In case it means anything, I am a big VTM fan as well. I'm not a VTM or VTR guy, I like elements of both games.

I generally prefer the story/setting/world of VTM more, but I really like the B&S/GMC rule set. So the game will definitely have a VTM feel at times because there were so many great things about that game it'd be a shame not to use them. But for those who are curious, the general feel of the game will be a blend of different elements from both VTM and VTR.


Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the feedback, it was greatly appreciated, both for helping to get this game started and for future reference!