Hi All -


Background

So I've always loved wuxia (books, TV series, movies, etc.), but there aren't a whole lot of games out there that are explicitly designed for the genre.

Weapons of the Gods is fun but has a lot of rules issues, especially with Courtiers and Scholars. More to the point, it isn't particularly playable on PBP, as it requires too many back-and-forth decisions in the midst of combat. Excellent martial arts rules that really capture the feel of the genre, but extremely impractical on this medium.

Its successor, Legends of the Wulin has some fun ideas, but I personally am not a fan of its mechanics/game balance and like WOTG, I think there's a little too much back-and-forth necessary during combat to really keep things moving along. Love the setting material though, and Loresheets are a great concept to work players into the game.

Qin has a well-developed setting and some interesting rules ideas, but I personally don't like the focus on the 'mystical' aspects of Chinese fantasy. I prefer my wuxia without demons, the supernatural and such. Plus from a game balance standpoint, some weapons, taos, and techniques are vastly overpowered while others are just flat out worthless, leading to a lack of variety in the characters, PC and NPC alike.

Never played Exalted but I'm familiar with it, and it strikes me as more of a Japanese Anime RPG kind of feel that a more classic Chinese wuxia feel. That's just my personal take on it.

And...that's about it. Pretty much the highlight reel of wuxia games. There's old games that have wuxia but aren't specifically designed for the genre (e.g. Feng Shui), there's generic games that can be used for wuxia just like any other genre (e.g. GURPS, Fate), and there's games that can be twisted to fit the genre (e.g. BESM). While I tend to like bits and pieces of all the different games, there's always something that makes me sigh with disappointment and go, 'ooh...about that...'

OK, so now that I've given some background, to the point. I'm considering creating a homebrew system for a wuxia game, one specifically tailored to the PBP medium.

Some key elements I'm considering are:

1. I'm currently considering using the God Machine Chronicles/Blood and Smoke nWOD rules as a base, for the following reasons.

- Combat doesn't require as much back-and-forth as most wuxia games. It's relatively easy to add Martial Arts Techniques, Styles, Stances, etc. to provide extra options. But the core idea of only having the attacker roll once to determine the to-hit and damage roll would probably help combat move along much quicker, which is sort of a necessity given how prevalent combat is in wuxia. I'd tweak it to make characters more robust and wuxia-worthy, but the whole 'one roll per action per character per turn' idea seems fairly important to ensure that fights actually make progress and can be resolved on a timely basis in the PBP medium.

- Their Conditions and Tilts strike me as a good way to represent the Chi Conditions and Social Machinations of Courtiers, Doctors, Scholars, etc. in a fairly user-friendly way.

- There is an emphasis on social skills and interactions inherent in the system mechanics that fits with the very complex social dynamics of the Wulin and the generally chaotic and fluid atmosphere of the various governments that tend to be present in wuxia.

- Fairly good spread in terms of how attributes fit into the system, which is important, since there's a wide variety of viable character concepts present in most wuxia fiction. Characters should be able to be dangerous and effective without needing to kick everyone's butt in a fight.

- The merits system serves as a reasonable facsimile of the Loresheet system in that it ties characters to the world and makes them broader and more diverse than just kung fu killing machines. Also meshes nicely/would serve as a good base for a more detailed martial arts system.


2. Point 1 notwithstanding, I would draw heavily on WOTG, LOTW, and Qin for mechanics, especially regarding chi, martial arts, and the wuxia/Chinese-specific game elements.

- GMC/B&S is a nice mechanical base, but the above games obviously focused on wuxia specifically, and brought a lot of great ideas to the table. Loved the different types of chi in WOTG, the Secret Arts that fit the feel of wuxia characters, internal and external martial arts from LOTW, and so on. All of which are critical to wuxia but obviously not represented in nWOD. So I would use those sources to develop the wuxia-specific elements of the game.

- There would be an emphasis on the cultural/story elements of wuxia as well. I'd be looking to tell a story with mechanical support for the story elements, like Zhuge Liang's ability to control/influence the weather. I do not want just a never-ending string of random fights. Zhuge Liang never wielded a weapon personally that I can recall, but was one of the most awesome characters in ROTK and certainly shined. (Yes I am aware ROTK is probably not technically wuxia, but it has enough in common to use it as an example.)

- Gotta be able to plow through mooks, and nWOD definitely isn't set up for that.


3. The setting would draw heavily on Jin Yong's novels (specifically The Condor Heroes Trilogy), Legends of the Wulin, and Weapons of the Gods from a Wulin standpoint. It would be more similar to Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Qin: The Warring States from a governmental standpoint.

- There would be plenty of opportunities for PCs to experience the Jiang Hu. Those seeking to make their fortunes in the 'legitimate' world would have plenty of exciting things happening there as well.

- I would have an overarching metaplot, but how much or little the PCs interacted with it would be largely up to them. Fairly heavy 'guided sandbox' feel. That is, you tell me what parts of the game you're interested in experiencing, I craft your story accordingly. Basically taking the Loresheet concept from LOTW and WOTG without necessarily making it a formal game mechanic.

- For anyone who's curious, the general theme of the game (from a PC standpoint) would be the classic 'young hero growing up to be awesome' tale that's the backbone of most wuxia stories. Start as the young and wet-behind-the-ears grasshopper, grow and evolve into the mighty Grasshopper-That-Dances-Amidst-The-Tornado, or something like that. You know, the usual.

- There would be more martial arts variety and focus than Qin, less than in LOTW and WOTG. I want martial arts to be an important part of the game, but due to the limitations of the medium I'd like to focus at least as much on the story, characters, and the PCs place in the world as combat. Combats would frequently end inconclusively, for a variety of reasons, much like wuxia TV shows. No 'all battles to the death so we can kill them and take their stuff' like many RPGs. I'd try to stay true to the genre in this regard, with rivalries, frenemies, numerous battles leading to an epic conclusion way down the line, and so on.


Conclusion

Obviously, all of this would take time to develop, and if there's no interest in such a game then that's a whole lot of work for nothing.

I know many people are leery of homebrew mechanics (a fair concern), so before I even seriously consider embarking on such a task, I figured I'd ask if there is any interest in such a game.

To be clear, nothing above is set in stone or non-negotiable, I just wanted to give a clearer and more defined sense of what I was thinking than 'hey I want to make a homebrew wuxia game, would anyone be interested?'

For what it's worth to anyone, I have read a pretty good amount of wuxia novels and comics, watched a decent amount of the TV series/movies, and generally have a fair idea of what wuxia is about, or at least the parts of it that I like/prefer. =)

I can't say I'd be the greatest wuxia GM ever, but the point is I think I would provide at least a reasonable wuxia gaming experience from a GM side.

Thanks to anyone/everyone who read this far! So with all that said, would anyone be interested in playing in such a game?

(NOTE: In case it wasn't obvious, such a game would not be starting any time in the immediate future regardless of the level of interest, since there's a lot of work that would need to be done first. But I don't want to start the project at all if there's not enough potential interest to make it worthwhile down the road.)
This message was last edited by the user at 04:29, Tue 09 Sept 2014.

I'd be interested in the concept. The system choice doesn't exactly excite me at first glance, and the fact that any potential game from this is somewhere off in the future doesn't bode well - more so the pickier you intend to be with the setting / the more effort translating mechanics over requires.

That said, I look forward to seeing what happens over time.

One can google the RPG system Exalted was supposed to be (had it not been a bookkeeping nightmare) to see that there is plenty of interest for martial arts RPGs. As for myself, I'm all for any fantasy in any version of WoD, Scion and such that is not system broken. I am familiar with plenty of references you mentioned, but I never had opportunity to try any of them except of Fate. So if you are in for some system development, count me in.

Quick question. Are you familiar with Scion and its add-on for Celestial Bureaucracy?

I'd definitely be interested in such a game, but I'm afraid I haven't really played any of the systems or settings you've mentioned besides WoD, and that was mostly Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines.

I'm perfectly willing to learn, though. I even have a few character ideas I can work with, though one does have celestial intervention tied into her background. We'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

I assume you'd be willing to work your players through your system, so hopefully the first one won't be too much of a concern, and I look forward to seeing where this goes. Good luck.

I'm interested in this. The wuxia genre has always been a great love of mine (in fiction and in real life), and the fact that it's so difficult to portray well in PBP with the systems we have is something that I've struggled with before.

Using nWoD as a base is something I probably wouldn't have thought of as a good idea, but it could work. The system definitely works well in a forum setting (or at least better than most), but it has a few issues that I think would need to be addressed if you were going to use it.

You mentioned the social/mental skills in nWoD being a strong selling point since it allows characters to be effective without always resorting to violence, and this is definitely true. While I'm not as well-versed in the GMC rules update as I am in the original core, the rules for social influence and tilts it created seem like they'd model the doctor's/priest's/scholar's/courtier's arts from LotW and its predecessor well.

That said, while allowing for characters to branch out and pursue non-violent solutions is definitely a necessity, Wuxia fiction thrives on the fact that, when push comes to shove, the heroes are able to throw down with the best of them, no matter whether they're more dedicated to the arts of healing or the arts of war. Equal facility in and out of combat is a staple of the genre, and that's not something that the current nWoD system models well. It's incredibly difficult to be equally capable in violent and non-violent affairs with the standard point arrays without being decidedly mediocre at both.

Despite whatever flaws it may have, LotW does a good job of establishing all characters with strong toolsets of abilities to be used in and out of combat, and one of the ways it does this is by making them mostly separate systems for which you are given points independently. If you're going to try replicate the Wuxia genre in the nWoD engine, I'd recommend giving people some dedicated points purely for martial options and some purely for non-martial options. This could be as simple as giving everyone 5-7 merit dots that can only be used to purchase fighting-style merits and making those merits only purchasable with these dedicated resources.

It would probably also be wise to play with skill-point allocations a bit. Martial heroes tend to be more broadly competent than the average nWoD survivor, so character creation would need to reflect that. Of course, I have no idea how far you're going to go in remodeling the system, so some of this advice might be totally redundant. Still, I hope some of it proves to be good food for thought.

I'll keep my eye on this thread.

-Norwood

Thanks for the feedback. A few comments/answers.

1. As a homebrewed system, and one intentionally designed to play in a genre that traditionally is not easily done on PBP, I would be going for simplicity and easy-to-learn. I'm fine with lots of interesting mechanics via Martial Arts, but they'd all basically be add-ons/options/extra to the basic system, hardly necessary to know them all just to play.

I do agree the system choice doesn't seem exciting, and in certain respects it really isn't. I am thinking about going that way because it is relatively simple to learn for new players, already familiar to many, and most importantly, doesn't rely on a lot of back-and-forth.

I am still considering Qin's system, which has some really interesting elements to it. I think one of the biggest hurdles I've seen for wuxia games on PBP is the fact that there is a lot of active defending in the form of blocks/dodges. It makes total sense for the genre, but every back-and-forth of decision-making and dice-rolling between attacker and defender really slows things down, all the more so when multiple combatants get involved. Since many wuxia games also have multiple attacks (which makes sense for the genre, but is a giant pain on PBP), that just compounds the problem.

So while I freely admit nWOD's mechanics don't seem very interesting from a wuxia standpoint, there's a certain practicality in the 'attack roll only that also determines damage' approach that seems to have some merit.




2. I am familiar with the general idea behind Scion, but I do not know any details about it, nor about its Celestial Bureaucracy.

3. Regarding character creation with nWOD system, if I go that way I'd definitely give out lots more points, including special points used only for martial arts (much like vampire gives points only for disciplines). NWOD survivor/gritty personal horror characters are very different from wuxia heroes, so I certainly wouldn't follow the same character creation rules. Just the base mechanics for the most part, and adjusting power level to fit the genre would be comparatively easy, just give out lots more points. =)

Thanks for the feedback, as I come up with more thoughts I'll try to update here, but if anyone has any more thoughts I certainly appreciate it. It's good to know there are wuxia fans here on rpol, if nothing else!

Been looking into this a little more, and while nWOD does have its selling points, it is looking like it would require some major work to get to a playable point. Plus, it just doesn't feel very wuxia-like in some respects. WOD does a great job of evoking a certain feel in their games through their mechanics, and to me at least, that feel doesn't really give me a wuxia vibe.

I'm looking a lot more at Qin, because it's pretty simple for the most part and has a great setting.

Would there be more interest in a Qin game that was substantially house-ruled to evoke more of a wuxia feel?

Major changes would include:

1. Drastically reducing focus on weapons and making unarmed characters viable. Maneuvers would become parts of martial arts styles, not weapon specific traits. Balance weapon characteristics so they aren't drastically unbalanced.

2. Taos would be replaced by martial arts styles (semantic change) and there would be a lot more of them, with an emphasis on practical/playable ones and not having half the written Taos be just random gimmicky styles. More martial arts in general. I want my wuxia to have martial arts, not random magic dressed up in a different outfit and called a different name.

3. Internal/External Alchemy and Exorcism would be drastically reduced. I just don't like having overtly supernatural elements like ghosts and demons in my wuxia.

Essentially, I would cut out the supernatural, make the choice of weapons primarily one of style rather than character-defining substance, emphasize martial arts, and maybe tweak a few things here and there to be more PBP friendly. So for the most part, someone familiar with Qin could pick it up relatively quickly. Maybe even more quickly since a lot of random esoteric elements (i.e. the alchemies and exorcism) wouldn't be a factor.

Thoughts?

Just a few thoughts to your system search.

Ninjas and superspies has a pretty extensive martial arts system and has the addition of being able to add super powers from the heroes system.

Champions Fuzion system pretty much lets you make whatever you want to make.

L5R, while being a Japanese system runs pretty smoothly

7th sea has a very good "Cathay" book and is very over the top, movie type rp.

And Scion kicks apple... In addition to being based on World of Darkness.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 06:14, Mon 15 Sept 2014.

I'd be up for trying something like this, as long as it's a system I'd have access to anyway.

Have you looked at GURPS Martial Arts and its related products?

I've wanted to try Qin out for ages, so I'd be at least tentatively interested in a game like this. I say 'tentatively' because I'd have to see how extensive the house-ruling proves; since getting to try out Qin would be a major selling point, the more the game departs from the rules-as-written, the less interested I'd likely be.

And since the things you're looking for--less emphasis on weapons/more on styles & very little overt supernaturalism--sound to me like Legends of the Wulin, can I assume it's the complexity of that game that's leading you to look elsewhere? That's a 100% legit reason, imo, but I've also done quite a bit of running & playing LotW via PbP since its release, so I'd be happy to discuss the subject if you're interested.

Using D&D 3.5e with the Quintessential monk 1 and 2 you can get a decent combat system for monks. Some spots are roll intensive, like in a Lion Dance. If you use the Beyond Monks supplement you can make it more accessible to other classes to be wuxia. There are things like Ki Mystics and Martial artists that don't have to be lawful like monks.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

In no particular order:

- I do not have access to Ninjas and Superspies, Champions Fuzion, Scion, or GURPS Martial Arts/related products, so those are all out.

- I have GMed and played every edition of L5R from 1st to 4th, and while I really enjoy its samurai feel, I do not like the Roll and Keep system (L5R or 7th Sea) for Wuxia.

- I am not a fan of 3.5e online, just too many rules and too much crunch for PBP gaming, at least from the standpoint of being a potential GM.

All suggestions were appreciated, I can elaborate on my reasons if requested, but generally speaking the above don't really get me going to a wuxia kinda of place.

As for Qin, the core game itself is pretty nice, although more gritty than most people probably prefer their wuxia. A couple random goons can be a serious threat, and unarmed combat really isn't viable, especially if going up against opponents with weapons. On a personal note, I just don't like the supernatural in my wuxia, and that takes out a significant chunk of the game.

You assume correctly that the crunch of LOTW is a reason for me preferring to look elsewhere. I've read it, I played Weapons of the Gods, and I think it's a little tough to run on PBP. Doable, but tough. I've also never been a fun of the mechanical balance in WOTG and LOTW. LOTW is better than WOTG, but as a general rule they tend to have some wacky and/or obvious rules to exploit. It's been a while since I've read LOTW so I can't comment on specifics off the top of my head, but I know even a cursory reading made some things jump out at me like 'whoa, that can't be right!'

What elements of Qin would you be wanting to try out? As long as there was no overtly supernatural elements like spirits, exorcism, etc., I might be tempted to at least try it out, maybe I'd have a different experience with a different group of players in a different medium (PBP vs. tabletop). I don't mind the alchemy stuff, predictionism, internal/external arts as much, that stuff has a place in wuxia in most stories. But I just can't get hopping vampires with priests slapping prayer stickers on their foreheads out of my mind whenever the supernatural enters Asian cinema.

For me the only near-absolute deal-breaker is the supernatural, I have (almost) zero interest in incorporating any of that into my stories. After that, I suppose everything else could be negotiated.

(I will note that I LOVED Jade Empire, and while I wouldn't want some of the more fantastic elements like airships, there was enough cool stuff in there that I wouldn't give a hard no to Exorcism and related elements in the game, but I would say it would not be a focus of the game at all, unless someone REALLY went looking for it.)

Maybe a short intro adventure for everyone to try it from a fresh perspective, with the understanding that it would be a one-shot test run for all involved? Would that be something anyone is interested in?
This message was last edited by the user at 06:06, Tue 16 Sept 2014.

I'm 100% fine with lopping off the more supernatural elements from Qin; to be honest, it's been quite a while since I even had a sniff at playing a game of it, so I don't remember the rules all that well. I was more hesitant about some of the more basic mechanical changes you mentioned--not because there are particular parts of the system that I wanted to keep, but more because I'd like to get a feel for how it plays more or less as written.

I'd be very interested in an introductory adventure, in any case.

I assume this desire to try the system 'as is' at least partially incorporates a desire to see its flaws?

For example, I believe someone in your game mentioned there are pretty much no workable mechanics for social skills in the RAW. If the game turned into a longer campaign I'd definitely put in house rules to remedy that, but for a test run you pretty much want to try it out of the box, so you can identify problems like that for yourself, correct?

In reply to WinterRat1 (msg # 16):

Hmm. I guess I'm not really bothered by the notion of excluding elements of the game that don't fit what you'd like to run, like the supernatural stuff, and I'm also not really bothered by adding house-rules to handle things that the game doesn't even try to do, like (it seems) social influence.

Honestly, just forget I said anything on the subject :) As long as the house rules aren't so involved that I'm effectively having to learn a whole new rule-set on top of having to remember how Qin works by the book, I'm happy to roll with whatever.

All right, so I am considering running a short test game of Qin: The Warring States so people can test out the system and I can give it a try on the PBP medium. Would there be any interest in such a game?

There would be some minor house-ruling and I would not try to test/portray/represent all aspects of the system (notably little, if any overtly supernatural elements), but for the most part it would be mostly rules as written so people could get a feel for the game.

I would have the adventure be a relatively brief standalone with a clear beginning, middle, and end. It would have potential to turn into a longer campaign if the interest is there on all sides, but there would be no promises or commitments on my end, or that of the players. Just thinking about picking the system back up to give it a second chance, and since one person has expressed possible interest, thought I'd see if there were any others.

So, any interest?

If you are permitting/teaching absolute newbies to Qin system, then I'd be up for it.

The system isn't that complicated, I'd probably just ask for a concept and help you make a character in broad strokes rather than hold your hand through each step of the process, since we're just testing it out. Basically having you pick an archetype and then tailor it to your preferences. If the game progressed to a campaign I'd let you tweak/tailor your character to your more specific preferences. Fair enough?

I'd be interested. China is enough of a fascination for me that I eventually moved there for a bit, so whether hew closer to traditional wuxia stories or stray more towards Jade Empire's eastern fantasy, I'll be interested.

In reply to WinterRat1 (msg # 20):

Fair, count me in. Qin system interests me, dunno why.

I'm fairly interested in trying it at least.

I'd be up for trying Qin.  I also thought I could suggest A Wanderer's Romance for the system if you're looking for something with a lot of styles that has balanced weapons and unarmed:

http://www.stargazergames.eu/g...a-wanderers-romance/

It's also free.

Thanks for the lead regarding the system, I'll take a look at it! I'm working through some possibilities and rereading the Qin system (been a while since I've last played) to familiarize myself with the game enough to possibly GM again. No promises, but there's been enough interest that a test game seems like something reasonable for me to consider.