swordchucks
 member, 1541 posts
Fri 22 Feb 2019
at 03:22
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
So, one of my favorite games that I haven't quite learned to run as well as I'd like is GURPS.  I've recently had a chance to play more of it, and that's got me thinking that I'd like to do more fantasy things with it.

I'm not a huge fan of Dungeon Fantasy, but I think there's some interesting things you can do with using GURPS to sort of emulate D&D/Pathfinder.  To that end, I'm going to try running the important bits of a Pathfinder Adventure Path in GURPS (I have a general tendency to gloss over or remove "filler" combats).  In general, I'm thinking about starting at 150 cp and progressing from there pretty quickly (modeling the D&D "heroic advancement" trajectory at about 25cp per D&D level).  For the sake of sanity, sources are also likely to be limited to a small number of books.

So, here's the question: Who is interested, and what AP would they be interested in?

If there isn't a strong preference on the second part, I'd like to give Rise of the Runelords a run.  Despite having started it at least three times, I don't think I've ever played it past the first combat.  (Also, Kingmaker is off the table.  It is the hell of spreadsheets.)
gorchek
 member, 7 posts
Fri 22 Feb 2019
at 16:14
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
I'd love to try that. I don't have much of a preference for adventure path, though I did read through a few of them, including Rise of the Runelord. Still, if you don't mind a player who pretends to be surprised, I'd like to join in.
Bane Root
 member, 299 posts
Fri 22 Feb 2019
at 18:48
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
Im interested
swordchucks
 member, 1542 posts
Mon 25 Feb 2019
at 22:34
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
Two isn't a bad number.  Are there specific things about Pathfinder/D&D you'd like to see emulated in GURPS?  Dungeon Fantasy tries to do several, but also doesn't touch several.  Now would be a good time to make suggestions and requests as I'm still working up a list of house rules.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1438 posts
Mon 25 Feb 2019
at 23:20
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
Is there a free beginners guide for the gurps edition you're using? I know one of them does, but I'd need to find it again.

If so, I'd be willing to hop in. I'm always looking to try other systems, and RoTRL is an AP I'm very interested in playing through.

To be honest though, I can't keep up a quick pace for a while, maybe a 3-4 posts a week.
swordchucks
 member, 1543 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 00:11
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
4e has a free edition (called GURPS Lite).  Lite is, more or less, just a cut-down version of the general rules.  If you have a PF character concept, it shouldn't be too hard to make a character using some GM assistance and GURPS Lite.
callen
 member, 42 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 00:22
IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
I love GURPS and fantasy, but I'm really not a fan of Dungeon Fantasy. It sounds like you're thinking more vanilla GURPS instead of Dungeon Fantasy. And I think my one recent GURPS game died. Meanwhile, I don't know any Pathfinder adventure paths, but I've heard they're really well developed, probably the best adventure modules or similar yet done for any game. And not being familiar with the particular one will probably just be that much better - no need to feign surprise. So I'm definitely interested, unless you're set on the two rather than having a third.
swordchucks
 member, 1544 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 01:29
Re: IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
callen:
It sounds like you're thinking more vanilla GURPS instead of Dungeon Fantasy.

I'm definitely starting with vanilla GURPS and working from there, but DF has some good ideas when you start talking about dungeon crawling.  For instance, you really should nerf Earth to Stone's ability to make metals (both outright and what happens when you combine it with Essential Earth) if you don't want to destroy the economy.

Are there aspects of DF that you particularly dislike?

One of the biggest questions about the game is how, exactly, you emulate the character arc of Pathfinder/D&D.  My current draft of the idea is to start with 150 cp + 10 cp for a background package (basically, the traits from the Player's Guide from the AP).

From there... I've been back and forth a few times.  A modest approach and using DF as a guide would expect 20-25 cp per level.  That pushes you into the 600 cp range toward the end, which is "superhuman" and fairly accurately describes the level of high end Pathfinder characters.  On the other hand, that might be a bit too fast.

Once I poke at the rough draft one or two more times, I'll probably officially make the game.  The "model" party is 4 people.  Given that this is RPOL, it always pays to have a spare, too.
callen
 member, 43 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 01:31
Re: IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
swordchucks:
Two isn't a bad number.  Are there specific things about Pathfinder/D&D you'd like to see emulated in GURPS?  Dungeon Fantasy tries to do several, but also doesn't touch several.  Now would be a good time to make suggestions and requests as I'm still working up a list of house rules.

I find the odd thing with Dungeon Fantasy is it seems to focus on emulating the one thing most contrary to GURPS: classes instead of skills. That was the one thing I always found problematic in D&D/Pathfinder. What if you want a certain type of character that doesn't quite fit? Then take a few levels of A, a couple levels of B, and level of C so you qualify for a few levels of special (advanced/prestige/something like those) class D followed by special class E. Even D&D/Pathfinder found its own class system too limiting.

But there are a lot of great things. Here are a few thoughts:

My biggest thing is niche protection. The way the classes are set up, characters tend to fit into certain niches. So a group works well with a mage, a cleric, a fighter, and a thief or something roughly similar to that. Everyone gets to be a star. But creating classes like Dungeon Fantasy does is rather antithetical to GURPS. What about restricting certain Advantages instead? For example, you can buy Magery, but that will only give access to certain spells (loosen up some prerequisites instead of allowing all prerequisites). Combat Reflexes is only for fighters. Etc. You might allow for primary and secondary or a split somehow so someone could make something that overlaps some of these areas.

Levels make nice break points and help keep players tracking similarly. You could limit things based on level (measured off cp). You have to reach a certain level before you can get beyond certain scores, like high levels of Magery. As long as you allow high enough, you get some specialization which helps with the prior point. You could make different caps, though. For example, with 200 cp, you might limit 80 points in class Advantages, 60 points in any one class Advantage, or something like that. Then you could go with 40/40, but you won't reach what someone putting 60 into one would reach. It would guide toward niches by using levels/break points, while still allowing much of GURPS's flexibility.

The "races" are nice just because their classical Tolkien in many ways so most of us know them really well. It makes it a lot easier to convey a fantasy setting when everyone has a shared understanding of so much. GURPS works perfectly well with "races."
callen
 member, 44 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 01:43
Re: IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
swordchucks:
Are there aspects of DF that you particularly dislike?

I mentioned some good and bad stuff in a post overlapping with this one.

swordchucks:
One of the biggest questions about the game is how, exactly, you emulate the character arc of Pathfinder/D&D.  My current draft of the idea is to start with 150 cp + 10 cp for a background package (basically, the traits from the Player's Guide from the AP).

Certainly restricted points can work quite well, like those 10 cp on a background package. Something I've done in a different style GURPS game was to award 2 cp instead of 1 cp (essentially halving costs) for good fluff background. People don't hesitate to dump 5 cp into chess, literature, etc. when they get 10 cp out of it. But restricted bonus cp like you suggest is probably much simpler. And those restricted cp could go toward Rank or similar as well, which helps with the background package.

You could also just place certain restrictions. For example, you must take two Area Knowledges based on where you're from.

swordchucks:
From there... I've been back and forth a few times.  A modest approach and using DF as a guide would expect 20-25 cp per level.  That pushes you into the 600 cp range toward the end, which is "superhuman" and fairly accurately describes the level of high end Pathfinder characters.  On the other hand, that might be a bit too fast.

Yes, 600 cp is rather big. You might look at it more like 100 cp + 15 cp per level, for example. Having that initial bit gives a good starting point while letting you scale things up uniformly but also not too quickly.

swordchucks:
Once I poke at the rough draft one or two more times, I'll probably officially make the game.  The "model" party is 4 people.  Given that this is RPOL, it always pays to have a spare, too.

Sounds cool. Looks like you already have interest from 4 people.

This message was last edited by the user at 01:44, Tue 26 Feb.

DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1440 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 07:54
Re: IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
To be honest, anything beyond level 5 in d20 is superhuman. Pathfinder is even worse.

I love d20, but both classes, and the quickness of reaching superhuman power are the two biggest flaws of it in my opinion.

Naturally, I have thought, designed, and played much with removing those problems from d20, which adds a lot of insight for doing so in any system.

Now, I'm not very familiar with gurps, and it certainly will never be a mainstay system for me simply due to the inherent limitations of the core mechanic (I play other systems for the experience and betterment of myself as a gm and player, not for any hope of finding a better system than what I can make myself) which are obvious from the gurps lite pdf, before even reaching additional mechanics.

The best suggestion I can come up with for slowing advancement is to go ahead and allow plenty of points, but limit how many can be spent on any one thing per "level." For example, say that only five points can be spent on a single thing per "level," thus buying a 15 point thing takes three levels. You might also limit the core stats even more, thus pushing for learning more things rather than letting players skyrocket a couple things beyond all reason.

You might alternatively add a stat called "Level" that limits how much you can spend in total o  any one skill/stat, and therefore must be increased before increasing your highest abilities. This would give a choice about spending more points on new things or fewer points on improving your best things (because you had to spend so many on increasing your level).

As for niche protection, I've never really seen the point, but if you really want it without hard class-based style limits, then make things from a players chosen style to be cheaper. Of course this is best done by gm adjudication, as an example, someone who uses magic to become a combat beast shoukd be considered a combat niche despite using magic to accomplish it, as well as allowing more nuanced niches, such as a navy seal type character that knows plenty of survival and stealth along with combat.
swordchucks
 member, 1546 posts
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 14:37
Re: IC: Pathfinder AP run in GURPS
I fiddled with some math.  Starting at 120 and doing +20/lvl gives you 200cp at level 5 (the first of the Pathfinder major power bumps) and 300 at level 10 (which would be the second).

At least initially, I'm experimenting with the idea of awarding only part of the cp per level and letting PCs spend loot to buy the rest up to a cap.  This lets you do some interesting stuff like trading out Signature Gear over time.  It also gives me a way to make wealth attractive to everyone (and low wealth a penalty over all levels) in a game where you don't really deal with jobs.

Anyway, game up here: link to another game