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18:04, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

New site design.

Posted by jase
jase
admin, 3549 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 06:21
  • msg #1

New site design

It's with no small amount of trepidation that I post this.  As some of you may be aware there's been a lack of updates to the site for quite some time.  What most aren't aware of is this has been due to a major visual rework that's been done behind the scenes.  It's very hard to make identical changes to two different code bases so I (wherever possible) have been maintaining a single code base that is dealing with the aforementioned visual layout changes.  Great features have been suggested by members but I'm unable to action them until the visual modifications are complete.

Why change?  I believe without some changes that RPoL runs the risk of stagnating.  Google, with their search engine dominance and ability to stipulate pretty much whatever they like, have clearly stated that unless you have a responsive layout as well as https (which is already available for testing via / or /) then your website will be ranked lower.  I don't want to introduce anything that will alienate the existing player base, but I'm also realistic and know that if there's not a reasonably steady flow of new members then the site will slowly wither.

So what's this war and peace post all about?

This requires more text.  Sorry!

I've tried adapting the current layout to be responsive, but as soon as you give the directive to mobiles/tablets to do this, everything goes awry.  I tried updating the current table-based layout to be responsive, but I was pushing a round peg into a square hole and it was getting messy, unreliable and really time consuming.

Ergo a fully responsive, designed from the ground up, website has been in development for quite some time.  It's using more modern (but not bleeding edge) web design and zero javascript (besides what we've already got).  Requirements for a fully functional website are any major browser beyond ~2011, but it'll degrade for older browsers.

Why the trepidation?  A few reasons.  Firstly I realise that some people have a lot of fondness for the existing layout, myself included.  For desktop browsing it's not broken, though it certainly could benefit from some readability improvements.  Secondly the beta site is very unfinished, but despite that I want to give you all the opportunity to see what's in development, and I think that will cause issue for some.  Lastly it's been designed from scratch, so it doesn't carry over much that's... familiar.

If it's unfinished what's to see?

A few things.  Though it's not many they're the important parts.

  • The general framework/layout of the site.
  • The responsive (adaptive) design.  If on a desktop reduce the browser width and you'll see it adapt at two different "break points" (800px and 695px wide).  Not every page has a breakpoint at 800px, but you will notice it at 695px.
  • How the main menu, game menu, thread view and compose screens look and work.  These are somewhat, but not completely, finished.  Same for the cast screen, though that doesn't adapt down the best and needs more work.


What's not finished?

  • Everything.  So please don't nit pick.
  • The colours.
  • Pixel perfect placement.
  • Dice roller, game maps, game introduction, sheets, descriptions, searching, help/faq, GM menus.  Anything else I haven't explicitly listed as (somewhat) finished.
  • Stickylist, help, faqs, create a game.. you get the idea.


OMG it's so different, and for that I hate it.

Sure is, but give it time and it'll hopefully grow on you.  Besides the adaptive layout there's some major changes that aren't responsive centric.

  • The font size is larger.  Small fonts actually decrease reading speed and recognition.  A lot of recommendations are to go even larger but we've set a compromise between recommended and what we've currently got.
  • The site has a maximum width of 1100px.  Going any wider ends up with a crazy view and actually doesn't fit any more text on the screen, as the wider you go the bigger the line height (the gap between one line and the next) needs to be to maintain readability, so longer lines results in the exact same amount of text.  Keep in mind that later on you'll be able to customise the theme and I hope that will include site width.


What do I expect from you?

  • No FUD.
  • No blanket negativity.
  • Constructive feedback.  Doesn't have to be positive, but all feedback (even positive) needs to have a point.  "I don't like the new layout because _______", "I like the new layout, it _____".  "The cast list gets confusing when it wraps, what if it _______".  Fill in the blanks.


Remember, if I wasn't interested in your thoughts and input as well as trying to find a compromise that will please as many people as possible then I'd just roll out the changes and not bother posting here.



TLDR version;  Step 1: check http://beta.rpol.net, step 2: don't panic.
pdboddy
member, 518 posts
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 11:05
  • msg #2

New site design

I think the layout looks good.  It'll be better once we can colour it to our tastes.  It seems very responsive.  Though, I cannot even get into one of my games to see how it looks.  You did say that there's a lot that isn't set up yet. :)

I think it's a good step in the right direction, and your reasoning for it is sound.  And I appreciate the effort you're taking to not break the site for as many people as possible while moving to a more modern layout.
byzantinex
member, 88 posts
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 15:16
  • msg #3

New site design

I have looked over the beta site several times since I joined RPOL and other than the colors I feel it's a VAST improvement over the current design in terms of usability on mobile.

Mobile is really the way we need to push the site in order to help the user base grow, as well as increasing involvement from current users.

I've messaged you about a mobile app I would love to assist with, and I even wrote my own script (link to a message in this forum) in order to make the site work better on mobile for myself.

My vision for RPOL would be as an app, or at the least a mobile site with push notifications for games. Most people don't/won't use the site on their phones because it's so unwieldy with the pinch/zoom. But imagine how much faster games would move forward if every time a post was made on a game your mobile buzzed (special thanks to the Unofficial RPOL notifier app), you clicked and were taken right to the post and had a very mobile friendly interface for posting.

This is what I do now with my custom script and it allows me to make far more updates than when I was using the default RPOL site on mobile.

Instead of people "waiting to post until I'm at a computer" I think the involvement would skyrocket.

Heck, I don't care if the entire site is pink with care bears flying around, if it works on mobile I'm going to pee my pants with excitement! :D

And as I've said in several other posts, I'm a web dev with over a decade of experience and I would be more than happy to help you in any way possible. This site saved my relationship with RP and I've made my positive feelings and apprecaite toward RPOL.net really clear :D (link to a message in another game)

Thank you so much for your work jase.
steelsmiter
member, 1704 posts
AWE, BESM, Fate, Indies
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 15:54
  • msg #4

New site design

Were I to object, the only objection I would have would have been if you had changed navigation to something like what vBulletin sites or E does where you have to dig for your own topics (and in some cases can't even divide your game into threads), I'd probably object. Since you didn't, I don't.
nauthiz
member, 512 posts
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 22:15
  • msg #5

New site design

One thing that might be helpful is to get some definitions for, what I think are, new terms.

The main menu now contains

Your Games
Watched Games
Watched Forums
Discussion Boards
Deleted Games
Support RPoL

Clicking on these from the main page doesn't seem to do anything, as I assume they're not working yet.

Though I could be wrong as I can't seem to find a reference to what a "Watched Game" is on the current iteration of the site (at least in the Help/FAQs), so I'm not sure if this is an old concept I'm personally unaware of, or a new one being introduced.

Therefore I don't know if I have any "Watched Games" on the Beta site that should now, or eventually, somehow interact with that link in some way.  So knowing what falls under these new(?) categories vs "Games You Own", "Games You Play In & Peruse", etc once that information is relevant would be useful.



Overall, on the desktop at least, the layout seems functional and intuitive for current users.  It retains enough elements that seem fairly itterative of the current layout to make it feel familiar while still being quite quite functional once you find your way around.

The only real issue that I'd have as a user is that at 1080p resolution, the text under the "Thread Details" portion of individual threads is a little on the small side in comparison with the "Thread Title" text.  In most general threads this isn't too much of an issue, but in the "Wanted - Players" it seems to be slightly worse.  Perhaps because there's three lines vs two, or maybe the combination of small bold text alongside small regular text, but it seems less easy to quickly scan through the System and Genre info for individual posts vs the current design.
horus
member, 117 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 01:23
  • msg #6

New site design

I'm not at a location where I can pull this beta site up on a tablet, but I've looked it over on a computer screen (1920 X 1080) and it does not look too shabby!

I get the 1100 pixel width constraint - that should work neatly with most small tablets at 1280 X 800 resolution.  I do not have a phone worth testing with (an old Motorola Moto-E), so can't help there.

Looks like you're headed the right direction.  Is there anything else we can do to help?

Later On,
D
aguy777
member, 185 posts
Join Date:
Fri, 29 Nov, 2013
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 02:02
  • msg #7

New site design

The color scheme will take some getting used to, but it seems a lot easier to navigate. I don't have any issues on my computer or my phone (Samsung Galaxy S4).

EDIT: I entirely missed that the colors are not set in stone. Whoops. My bad. Lol.
This message was last edited by the user at 02:07, Sat 08 Apr 2017.
ericca
member, 118 posts
Just a chillin
having fun
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 02:21
  • msg #8

New site design

To be a bit dumb here. But can I simply say thank you for all you do. And no matter what I will always be an Rpol'er.

Now that being said, I do like what I see happening.
Skald
moderator, 766 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 05:21
  • msg #9

New site design

Being notoriously against any form of change whatsoever ("What do you mean it's Saturday ?!!  I LIKED Friday !  Why did you change it ?") ...

I like it.  Didn't think I would, but I do.  Under the skin, it's not a million light years away from the current layout, so there's enough of the familiar there that it doesn't feel entirely alien.

Couple of things to get the ball rolling:

1) I assume that Post a New Topic at the bottom of the game thread should be Post a Reply ?  I know we have Post a Reply on the This Thread menu at the top, but I'll be looking at the last post down the bottom of the page when I want to reply and it'd be handier not to have to scroll back up.

2) "The cast list gets confusing when it wraps, what if the" Tag sat underneath the character name to allow more width for the other columns, so the last game login and last game post time/date stamps columns can be widened slightly so they don't wrap.  It'll still be two lines per character, but it'd improve readability (and while some games use Tag for ranks etc, I suspect most will read "player" and we already know we're in the player section of the cast.  Now if I could just work out how to save even more space so we could get the portrait on there too ... (completely unnecessary, but would look pretty <grins> )
Utsukushi
member, 1409 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 06:06
  • msg #10

New site design

OMG, Friday was awesome.  This newfangled `Saturday' needs to go.  And don't even get me started on Tuesday!  Ugh.

I don't really agree that RPoL needs to aim for the mobile user -- until typing becomes a whole lot more convenient on mobile devices, there's nothing RPoL can really do to make itself more usable that way.  It can be easier to navigate, more readable, yes, but actually writing a significant post from my phone?  There's nothing jase can fix right now that will make me want to do that.

But meeting Google's list of demands... yeah, I'm afraid that makes sense.

The new layout is definitely going to take some getting used to, but, yes.  I could get used to it.  I'll agree that it doesn't feel `familiar', but I can see where you really tried to preserve a lot of the underlying structure and ideas we have now.

Um, yes, there are lots of tweaks and changes that need to be looked at, but you disclaimed pretty well that it's a work in progress.  It looks good!  Or at least.. acceptable.  Not too traumatic?  My eyes didn't melt, at least, so that's a good sign.

I'm finding it a lot harder to make out which Group different Threads belong to.  I mean, I found it, but even having found it, it doesn't stand out very well.  I like where that is now, but at least something to make it stand out better - maybe even just making that Bold?  "For Group 1 by The All Seeing Eye with 472 replies."  I think that would help.

And... I know you said it's still much in progress, so I get that we're not looking for debugging issues yet, but I'm getting some weird effects with the list of people to possibly post Private Lines to -- sometimes there's the drop-down menu as with Styled Text, and sometimes there's just a bulleted list going down from the spot where the drop down should be.  And once it was a list set in transparent boxes.  I'm trying to figure out some pattern to when this is happening.  It sort of seems like clicking the "Post a new Topic" most often gets the shadowy boxes list, while using a "quote" or "reply" link from a post either gets the dropdown list or the bulleted list?  Sort of?  It seems to be a consistent difference between different threads, but I don't know what's different about the threads.
bigbadron
moderator, 15320 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 08:54

Re: New site design

Utsukushi:
I don't really agree that RPoL needs to aim for the mobile user -- until typing becomes a whole lot more convenient on mobile devices, there's nothing RPoL can really do to make itself more usable that way.

Agreed (Wait, what?  It's the End Times!).  I use my phone to check RPoL occasionally, but never to post anything more than OOC one-liners.  Why?  Because typing on the phone is a nightmare.  And as Utsukushi said, there is nothing RPoL can do about that.

Frankly I'd rather see work put into a single version of RPoL that benefits the most users (like the version currently being worked on), rather than splitting efforts into two different versions, or focussing on something that would just encourage me to post less.
byzantinex
member, 89 posts
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 11:13
  • msg #12

Re: New site design

@bigbadron and Utsukushi

I do most of my posting on this and my own forum from my mobile phone and tablet.

I actually built my own forum with vanilla forums specifically because it was mobile focused.

I run a few games on there.
My players almost exclusively post from their mobile devices as well.

Maybe this is a generational thing? I'm 32 and I type on my phone all day long or use speech to text so saying it's a nightmare to type on a phone seems weird to say.

Fewer and fewer people even own desktop computers and laptops. I've been focusing all my development work on mobile first focused projects for almost 5 years now. Mobile devices rule king on the web.

Anyway, if any community wants to survive it has to evolve and attract new members. It's my professional opinion mobile first is the way to do that.

p.s. I just typed that entire response from my tablet using the custom developed page I created to make RPOL mobile friendly...

p.s.s. The average person I've met on RPOL is 30-40 with a full time job, married with kids. If we attract those younger people who are interested in D&D and were born with smart phones in their hands they 1) Have more time on their hands 2) we could teach them to play the best game in the world, and one without graphics and 3) A rising tide raises all ships, so younger people with more time on their hands getting involved in our games will mean more frequent postings.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:42, Sat 08 Apr 2017.
bigbadron
moderator, 15321 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 11:43

Re: New site design

quote:
It's my professional opinion mobile first is the way to do that.

That is, as you say, your opinion as a developer who creates mobile sites.

quote:
I'm 32 and I type on my phone all day long or use speech to text so saying it's a nightmare to type on a phone seems weird to say.

Odd... to me it seems like a perfectly natural thing to say.  *shrugs*
steelsmiter
member, 1705 posts
AWE, BESM, Fate, Indies
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 11:46
  • msg #14

Re: New site design

bigbadron:
That is, as you say, your opinion as a developer who creates mobile sites.

I had almost that exact thought.
byzantinex
member, 90 posts
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 11:51
  • msg #15

Re: New site design

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 13):

That's my thought as a developer who's been involved in web dev for almost 14 years and has adapted to the times... I'm not selling mobile sites because I want to, I'm building them because that's what the web (and Google) demands.

2 years ago (2015) mobile search volume bypassed desktop...

Why do you think Google prioritizes mobile friendly / responsive websites? Because they sell mobile websites? Nope. It's what customers demand.

If you're going to argue that a mobile first focus for every website isn't necessary then I'll bow out of this conversation.

p.s. Another user took their own time to develop a method to make RPOL response. https://ramirezj.github.io/rpo...rUsername/index.html

p.s.s Another user took the time to write a mobile notification app...
This message was last edited by the user at 12:20, Sat 08 Apr 2017.
bigbadron
moderator, 15322 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 12:15

Re: New site design

quote:
If you're going to argue that a mobile first focus for every website isn't necessary then this is a defunct conversation and I'll shut up now.

Nope, I'm saying that adopting a mobile first strategy on this website will likely alienate a lot of existing users.

quote:
Why do you think Google prioritizes mobile friendly / responsive websites?

Sorry, but didn't jase start this thread to discuss the responsive site that he's already working on?

While I like the look of the responsive version on the beta site, what I'm objecting to is the idea that everybody (who counts) is using mobile phones to access the internet, so that should be the priority for development here.
byzantinex
member, 91 posts
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 12:21
  • msg #17

Re: New site design

bigbadron:
Nope, I'm saying that adopting a mobile first strategy on this website will likely alienate a lot of existing users.


But there are a bunch of us already spending our own time and money to make it mobile friendly.

And how could making the site work on mobile alienate any users? It's not like it will stop working on desktop for those users...???

quote:
While I like the look of the responsive version on the beta site, what I'm objecting to is the idea that everybody (who counts) is using mobile phones to access the internet, so that should be the priority for development here.


But if the site is made responsive then it's one code base and phones won't be prioritized, they will use the same exact site as all the desktop users.

Anyway, Jase is already working on it so I don't know why I'm arguing. Sorry.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:22, Sat 08 Apr 2017.
pdboddy
member, 520 posts
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 12:22
  • msg #18

Re: New site design

In reply to byzantinex (msg # 12):

Sorry, there's not a phone/tablet keyboard, or voice option, that lets me do up to 150 wpm like a proper mechanical keyboard does.

Mobile touch and tactile options are, in my opinion, piss poor.  They work nicely for today's distracted population, who talk in 140 character blrps.  But typing out a typical Shadowrun scene description on a mobile keyboard is a Royal pain in the behind.  And this is from someone who's had a mobile phone as his only phone (no landline) for almost 15 years.

Yeah, mobile search passed desktop a few years back.  But this doesn't mean desktops are dead (the horse everyone keeps beating about desktops certainly is though).

But, I think the design philosophies used for mobile design work just as well for 'desktop' webdesign.  In a veritable ocean of flashy websites with doodads and ads, having a very simple website is a breath of fresh air.  It is why I have always been pleased and impressed by Google.com.  A quintessential website that works well, and quickly.  It's been my homepage forever... if it doesn't load immediately, you know there's something up.

However, some of the concepts in mobile design are very frustrating.  An article, which is perfectly fine on my phone and easy to read, becomes annoying to read in 'mobile' format because the article is now 40 pages long.  Sure each page fits on the screen (along with the damned ad), but it's irritating to read having to wait for each new page to load.  It's not terribly long, but long enough to break my concentration.

Mobile design's not useful if I have to keep switching to desktop versions on my mobile devices.

You do need a mobile version of your website, I won't argue that.  But I don't get this 'mobile first' thinking you have.  Most websites I've worked on had multiple versions being developed simultaneously... no point in inconveniencing a big chunk of your customers.

Back on topic now.  I originally viewed the new site on my tablet.  Checked it out last night on my desktop.  Looks fantastic.  Reminiscent of the current RPoL, but seems a bit crisper to mine eyes.
steelsmiter
member, 1706 posts
AWE, BESM, Fate, Indies
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 12:29
  • msg #19

Re: New site design

bigbadron:
Nope, I'm saying that adopting a mobile first strategy on this website will likely alienate a lot of existing users.

Like me. It'll alienate me. Actually it might flat out trim me from the userbase entirely if it's hardlined enough. I'm fine with a mobile also strategy, but if I'm in for a mobile first strategy it fruitcakes me right out.

quote:
While I like the look of the responsive version on the beta site, what I'm objecting to is the idea that everybody (who counts) is using mobile phones to access the internet

Yep, I only use my mobile phone for the internet when someone is actively chatting with me and won't can it for a bit. That doesn't happen with RPoLchat (because I've only used it for about a week in the entire time I've been here). Happens on facebook and discord, that's about it.
bigbadron
moderator, 15323 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 12:43

Re: New site design

quote:
But if the site is made responsive then it's one code base and phones won't be prioritized, they will use the same exact site as all the desktop users.

Exactly... so what's with all the "mobile first" talk?
byzantinex
member, 92 posts
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 12:55
  • msg #21

Re: New site design

I dunno...

I felt like the conversion was sort of anti Mobile for rpol.

Anyway. Same team! I'm going to go play my game now.
Gaffer
member, 1450 posts
Ocoee FL
40 yrs of RPGs
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 14:04
  • msg #22

Re: New site design

I had a quick look at the beta site, using my PC (my preferred connection, mostly because my tablet is kind of quirky to post with, mostly because I'm an old guy, but I do find myself using it more and more.

The new look is certainly different, but I found it very easy to navigate. The look is a bit boring, but that's probably because I've had a customized set up for years now.

I'll try to use my tablet on beta soon and will get back hear with more comments.

jase, thank you so much for all the time and effort you put into this place we all call home. You are one in a million!
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1116 posts
Sat 8 Apr 2017
at 21:14
  • msg #23

Re: New site design

To note, I just plain old don't have desktop access.
I personally think it should be made suitable for both desktop and mobile equally, with neither left as secondary.

======= Critique,

=== 1
One thing I love about the current style is that poster info is on the side rather than injected between messages. It is one of the best things about the current design. I really very much hate reading "msg -> post details -> msg." It breaks it up too much and makes it harder to just follow the conversation.

In fact, the presentation and clarity of threads is a major factor of what forums I actually bother reading, and rpol having minimal stuffing between messages and putting all that stuff on the side (and lacking the navigational sidebars) is one of the biggest reasons I frequent this forum, even to the point of being a bigger factor than community or available tools (such as dice roller). In fact, I really get tired of the tags here using < and > because they are much harder to use than [ and ] on my phone (and it already can take an hour or more to type up a post), but I overlook that precisely because of the current layout and presentation.

=== 2
You have two main menus with different options, I'd suggest calling one a nav menu (navigational menu).

=== 3
I'd suggest putting rmail under the profile button instead of the main/nav menu.

=== 4
For the page where you type up a post, you should add some space between the message box and the edge, otherwise, you have to scroll through all the text in the box in order to scroll the page past it because if you drag in the box it will scroll the text rather than the page. Having the space on the side allows one to scroll the page without scrolling through the text in the box first by dragging on that space.
icosahedron152
member, 753 posts
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 05:27
  • msg #24

Re: New site design

The next three paragraphs are admittedly a bit of a rant, but they explain the 'mobile last' viewpoint of (part of) the existing user base that Jase thankfully doesn't want to alienate, and as such I think they serve a legitimate purpose here. However, I absolutely agree that mobile users should have a site that is as usable as possible for them. Jase is doing a great job.

I'm exclusively a desktop user. Even laptops are too fiddly and awkward for my liking (that darned touch pad - give me a nice, responsive and controllable mouse any day!)

I'll resist mobiles until Google, Microsoft, et al turn their 'mobiles first' policy into 'mobiles only' (only a matter of time, alas, and the more we pander to them, the quicker it'll happen). Why? Because:

My eyes can no longer reliably see mobile-sized fonts without PITA scroll and zoom actions, my fingers frequently hit the wrong keys cos they're too darn small (and I'm touch-typing anyway cos the keys are too small to read), you have to toggle on and off a punctuation key every time you want to use punctuation (and I'm old-school enough to want to use it...), and the last thing I want is a voice activated system that makes everyone within fifty feet of me party to my activities.

So, to the Beta test:

There doesn't seem to be much to test. However, that could be because the page is adapting itself to my desktop, and if so that's a definite thumbs up. It looks quite usable on a desktop. I haven't used it on a mobile yet, so I can't comment on its readability there.

I don't like the way you now have to click on Your Games, Games you Watch, etc, to bring up sub-menus. Currently the Main Menu is just there, and I can see at a glance all of the games and forums I use, and whether there are any new posts. I would rather have them all on one page even if I have to scroll to read them. Scrolling is easier than clicking in and out of sub-menus on any device.

Hope that helps. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 05:30, Sun 09 Apr 2017.
nauthiz
member, 513 posts
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 06:41
  • msg #25

Re: New site design

Had a chance to poke at the beta with some mobile devices.  As someone who interacts (reading and posting) with rpol the majority of the time via a mobile device, the orientation towards a more mobile friendly format is welcome.  While the site is fairly usable as is, there are some issues that crop up from time to time that hopefully the new format will solve.

From what exists so far, the beta is certainly a bit easier to use on mobile over the current design.  The scaling works fairly well and menus are fairly responsive.

There is one specific issue I ran into with the scaling that I did want to point out however.  Given that "How the main menu, game menu, thread view and compose screens look and work.  These are somewhat, but not completely, finished.", I don't know if it's a known issue.  So if it is, please feel free to ignore.

I took a few screenshots to demonstrate the issues, as I figured that would be easier than describing them.

The first two were on a tablet, using Amazon's Silk browser, at a resolution of 2560x1600.  A bit of overlap between the right side navigation menu and the text formatting tools in the message posting screen and in the post preview screen the same issue with the curly graphics.

http://i63.tinypic.com/692o02.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/11imwz6.jpg

The second trio were taken on a phone, using Microsoft's Edge browser, at a resolution of 1440 x 2560.

You can see the same issue with the same design elements in the post and post preview screen, but they're a bit more severe in terms of blocking other elements of the site.  The first shot shows the way the post message screen is initially presented.

http://i63.tinypic.com/11l4h03.jpg

The second two show the entirety once it has been pinched and zoomed out to show the elements that are initially off screen.

http://i63.tinypic.com/692o02.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/11imwz6.jpg


Generally the direction of the beta seems to be going in a positive direction, whether via desktop or mobile.  I think in the end it will be rather worthwhile.
Gaffer
member, 1453 posts
Ocoee FL
40 yrs of RPGs
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 13:04
  • msg #26

Re: New site design

DarkLightHitomi:
...love about the current style is that poster info is on the side rather than injected between messages. It is one of the best things about the current design.

I will go ahead and add my voice on this issue. Especially as a GM, it's very helpful to be able to look over a previous post (or two) without a lot of scrolling.
Shannara
moderator, 3720 posts
Keep calm, drink more
COFFEE!!!!
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 14:28

Re: New site design

icosahedron152:
I don't like the way you now have to click on Your Games, Games you Watch, etc, to bring up sub-menus. Currently the Main Menu is just there, and I can see at a glance all of the games and forums I use, and whether there are any new posts. I would rather have them all on one page even if I have to scroll to read them. Scrolling is easier than clicking in and out of sub-menus on any device.


Definitely agree with this.  If there must be submenus, I'm a big fan of allowing them to be stickied open or closed with that setting saved.
pdboddy
member, 521 posts
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 14:47
  • msg #28

Re: New site design

I have found a slight issue.

When you are in a game, and click on "Character Details", there seems to be an invisible layer that covers the menu buttons.  The "View Profile of:" dropdown menu overlaps the game's menu.  And you can only click the bottom three buttons in full, to click the others, you have to touch the very right edge of the buttons to click on them.

EDIT: Also, I cannot find the RTJ text anywhere in the game menu.  I can edit the RTJ text, but I see no link to it other than the GM menu.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:49, Sun 09 Apr 2017.
jase
admin, 3550 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 10 Apr 2017
at 01:28

Re: New site design

Thanks all for your input.  It doesn't look like the same 50/50 split that voted on the recent poll frequent here!

A few points of clarification;

  • Menu placement, drop down (or other) menus aren't done.  Especially on screens I've listed as not finished.  Some screens I haven't even touched, so things will overlap, run off the side or just be messy.
  • There's no submenu on the main menu.  There's links and anchors to games you own etc, but that's the same grouping that's currently here.  Possibly worded slightly but we're not at the stage where we need to worry about wording.
  • The links have shuffled around and are currently in their "I'll pop it here for now" location (or possibly forgotten entirely).
  • The changing "Private to" dropdown is the same as here -- if the list gets too long it changes from a standard HTML dropdown list to a CSS menu.  Replying to a thread can trim out a lot of extra information as it removes all invalid recipients (i.e. who can't see the group).  The CSS hasn't been updated so will be all weird.
  • The current test theme is based off the "white" theme from here (which is grey with some blue really).  So if you're using a different theme here then it'll obviously be different, more so if you're using a dark theme.
  • I won't be developing an app.  I see no point when we'll have a fully responsive website.


And some more verbose stuff;

I've seen "mobile first" mentioned a few times (ok, all over the place) with web design and I've seen it mean different things.  Design wise I take it to mean you figure out how you'll render it for mobiles and then adapt it for larger screens, and technically I've seen it referred to as having the design default to mobile layout and only adapt it to a larger screen when you know the web browser has a larger display.

I don't do either.  I find that a mobile view is, by its very nature, constrained so trying to design from there doesn't make sense.  Strictly speaking I design desktop first, but I like steelsmiter's "mobile also" mantra.  RPoL is currently a desktop first environment and I'm adapting from there, so I'm editing from what we've currently got.  To delete the whole lot makes little sense to me, so I'm definitely starting from a desktop-centric view.  But once that's done it's a case of figuring out how I want it to look on a mobile, not what the current view will let me do.  Then I consider if the current layout can be made to adapt down to the view I want, and if not then I reconsider what I want or figure out if I can make a compromise for either environment to make it work.

Thread views -- I'm pretty sure the way thread views adapt down has to stay the way it's currently planned.  Vertical width is the nemesis of small devices, so trying to cram the post information to the side strikes me as working directly against one of the inherit advantages of responsive design.

Have run out of time, hopefully I've addressed all issues.  Thanks again one and all!
steelsmiter
member, 1708 posts
AWE, BESM, Fate, Indies
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Mon 10 Apr 2017
at 01:51
  • msg #30

Re: New site design

jase:
I like steelsmiter's "mobile also" mantra.

*bows* "I am not wuhthy!"
Mad Mick
member, 889 posts
Ain't sayin nothin
Got nothin to say
Mon 10 Apr 2017
at 10:58
  • msg #31

Re: New site design

It would be nice to have an option to move the main menu to the left.  That's what I expect in sites, and it feels counter-intuitive to have the menu on the right.  It is out of the way of game threads, though, so maybe offer that option if possible.

The font sizes on the GM menu seem too small.  Maybe two columns?
swordchucks
member, 1363 posts
Mon 10 Apr 2017
at 13:31
  • msg #32

Re: New site design

To be blunt, I don't come to RPOL for the layout - I come for the functionality.  As long as the new design keeps all of the functionality I need and maybe even adds some more, I'll be happy with it.  Six months after the change, I'll probably have forgotten what the old design looked like.  That's probably true for the majority of users.

For usage, I mostly write from a PC, but read posts on mobile quite often.  The deal killer for mobile are features you have to hover your mouse over (which happens now with spoiler tags, but they're used relatively rarely).

Looking at a few test posts in the new system, I agree that menus on the right feel a little weird, but, then again, I use those buttons a whole lot less than I use the game menu so maybe that's alright.  I've gotten pretty used to the "three column" look where the important content is in the middle.  The only other thing I found odd is the way portraits are placed in posts feels... weird.  It's more disconnected from the rest of the info, kind of hanging out distantly on its own to the right of the text, when I look at it.

On mobile, I actually like the shifted thread layout to do headers over posts.  It makes it easier to fit it on a small screen.  When I was looking at it, though, portraits aren't shown, though that might just be an option I'm missing somewhere.
jase
admin, 3551 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 00:25

Re: New site design

I tried the menu on the left, it looked really lop sided and odd when viewing threads.  You'd have the menu, then the post information, and finally the actual post text all the way to the right.  With the menu on the right the post text is close to centralised.

swordchucks:
Six months after the change, I'll probably have forgotten what the old design looked like.  That's probably true for the majority of users.

I suspect you might be right.
Mad Mick
member, 890 posts
Ain't sayin nothin
Got nothin to say
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 03:21
  • msg #34

Re: New site design

Ah, no worries, Jase.  I haven't seen too many sites that have a menu on the right, but I'll probably get used to it as swordchucks said.

I used to access RPOL on my iPod touch more.  I'd pull up the day's threads before I left for work and compose posts on the ride into the office, and do the same thing when leaving.  After about two years of 2-3 multiple paragraph posts a day, I stopped posting my iPod's screen and bought a Bluetooth keyboard for posting in coffee shops.  I still do that, but probably 80% of my posts are via desktop now, and 98% are with a full keyboard.

Now that Google Chrome has brought back the option to save posts to read offline, I read more posts using my iPod.

The biggest beef I have with the current site is the tendency to stretch out lines of text really far when large images are used in a thread.  The thread looks fine on desktop, but the words are too small on mobile.  It would be nice to have the images resized automatically on mobile to fit the width of the screen, but that may be beyond the scope of the new site.  Awesome!  It looks like this has changed, on desktop anyway for both desktop and mobile!  Thank you!  This is a huge improvement!

It's especially an issue when rereading old adventure threads.  Usually it's ok, but every now and then a large image forces the text to stretch too far across the screen.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:27, Tue 11 Apr 2017.
jase
admin, 3552 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 05:15
  • msg #35

Re: New site design

You've obviously picked up a little on what oversized images do, but there's actually more;

As you've seen image that's wider than the viewport will get shrunk down.  What's not there yet is that all images (it's an all or nothing option) will have a "lightbox" (see https://www.w3schools.com/howto/howto_js_lightbox.asp for an example).  That way shrunk images can easily be viewed in all their glory.

Additionally, tables will be constrained to the width of the message window.  Any wider and they'll scroll left-right.  Currently really wide tables make you scroll the page horizontally, going forward you'll only scroll the table.  No messing up the entire thread 'cos of one over-wide image or table.
nauthiz
member, 515 posts
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 05:57
  • msg #36

Re: New site design

jase:
No messing up the entire thread 'cos of one over-wide image or table.


This is pretty much the thing that makes (in my experience) the experience of using the current design on mobile go from "a bit of work, but functional" to "totally broken" when encountered.

So it's awesome to hear it'll be done away with in the new design.
swordchucks
member, 1365 posts
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 15:28
  • msg #37

Re: New site design

While I'm thinking about it...

My #1 wish for a site design tweak is to make the games listing on the front page more controllable or a single list.  With the current format, I tend to have exactly one game that slips into the right column with the forums and I miss posting in it all the time because I don't think to look over there when I'm looking for games to post in.

Letting me have all of my games in one list, or just to forcibly group my games together in blocks would make my experience a little better.  (I didn't check to see if the new design already addresses this or not, but since it's still influx, it's probably still a good idea to mention it.)
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1117 posts
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 21:40
  • msg #38

Re: New site design

I started this post last night and didn't get to post it. I think some of these points have been brought up but here it is anyway.

Mad Mick, I must disagree. The menus should not be on the side, especially not if they are treated as a frame. As a frame they rarely work, usually hiding stuff off screen or under the frame (makes d20pfsrd painful to use on a small mobile, lists and sidebars are always half hidden).

Even when such side menus work (like when the framed page is truly a single column with a clean design), or when using a desktop, it makes the page look busy and messy.

When it isn't a frame, then once you scroll below the menus, you get a busy center column with blank space on the sides.

One of the great things about the current design is that it is truly limited to two column (the post info on left, and message on right), but also that there is no side frame.

Jase has, in the current look, managed to avoid making the pages look overly busy, thus maintaining readability. This stems from the combination of minimizing the stuff between messages, the fact that plenty of "white space" exists throughout, and particularly in the appropriate places, and finally, the simplicity of stacking vertically.

Even two column us hard to get the readability right, though the current design managed it quite well, mostly because the left column is mostly whitespace and has no primary content and the difference in color separates the two well. Also, zooming in to look at only one column at a time is possible.

Looking more like the popular styles is a bad thing. I can see how such styles sound nice, especially in trying to pack the maximum amount of stuff on screen at once, but that doesn't make those styles work well for the one reading them.
byzantinex
member, 93 posts
Tue 11 Apr 2017
at 21:42
  • msg #39

Re: New site design

Jase, I know you've got a life and job and everything (priories man?! :D j/k) and I know these projects don't have fixed timelines, but do you have any concept of a delivery date for the responsive site design? Are you thinking a few months? 6 months? A year?
This message was last edited by the user at 21:43, Tue 11 Apr 2017.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1118 posts
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 04:18
  • msg #40

Re: New site design

swordchucks:
To be blunt, I don't come to RPOL for the layout - I come for the functionality.
 ...


Interesting. I'm the opposite actually. I come to rpol for the readability, which is primarily about layout. And if you think about it, I come here to read, so reading should be easy. *

Rpol has a clean look that is easy to read, has a dark theme which is easier on the eyes, and one of very few cases where two columns can actually be better than one and does it well.

Nearly all forums I see are cramped and pack in lots of stuff where it shouldn't be and all around are confusing to read and painful to sort through especially three column sites (which seem to be a semi-standard of sorts), hence, I avoid them when I can. In fact, only rpol and one other site are clean and easy enough to read that I actually spend time for fun rather than research or work.

Would be nice if rpol used square brackets instead of angle brackets, but as that is mostly a keyboard issue (square brackets are easier to get to, or equally difficult to get to, as angle brackets on all android keyboards I've used), I don't know how common that is all around.


* PS. I can get around any functionality issues, but not so for readability.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:20, Wed 12 Apr 2017.
Sir Swindle
member, 195 posts
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 12:51
  • msg #41

Re: New site design

I'm with Hitomi,

This is my primary RP site because there are no flashy bits and it looks enough like a spread sheet that I'm fine keeping it on screen at work.
bigbadron
moderator, 15325 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 13:10

Re: New site design

DarkLightHitomi:
Would be nice if rpol used square brackets instead of angle brackets, but as that is mostly a keyboard issue (square brackets are easier to get to, or equally difficult to get to, as angle brackets on all android keyboards I've used), I don't know how common that is all around.

There was once an rPoll on that very topic.  The results were:

Angled brackets, like HTML -- <b>bold</b>   62.1% - (235 Votes)
Whatever!!                                  28.5% - (108 Votes)
Square brackets, like UBBC -- [b]bold[/b]    9.2% - (35 Votes)


So that's what we have.
swordchucks
member, 1367 posts
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 13:51
  • msg #43

Re: New site design

DarkLightHitomi:
I'm the opposite actually. I come to rpol for the readability, which is primarily about layout.

I'm definitely not saying that readability isn't a factor (and generally consider it an aspect of functionality since that's the basic function of the site), but the thing that sets RPOL apart from a forum or pretty much anything else out there is the functionality.

I also consider being able to do your own robust themes to be a part of functionality.

DarkLightHitomi:
Would be nice if rpol used square brackets instead of angle brackets, but as that is mostly a keyboard issue (square brackets are easier to get to, or equally difficult to get to, as angle brackets on all android keyboards I've used), I don't know how common that is all around.

You can use square brackets for most tags, but being able to use them for colours would definitely be nice.

The problem with rPoll results is that it's limited to the people that a) notice the poll and b) answer the poll.  I'd rather see both work, to be honest, since what's easy for me will vary by input device (my bluetooth keyboard is a real avacado about making it hard to do certain special characters).
Skald
moderator, 767 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 14:09
  • msg #44

Re: New site design

swordchucks:
The problem with rPoll results is that it's limited to the people that a) notice the poll and b) answer the poll.

H'mmm - not really.  I'm comfortable assuming a) that those who saw it and chose not to answer would fall into the "don't care either way" category, and b) the preferences of those who didn't see it would be distributed in roughly the same proportions as those who did vote.

Not comfortable assuming that those who didn't vote for whatever reason actually preferred the least popular option.  Not that I've got anything against square brackets. <grins>

But back to the question at hand ... I do very much agree with DarkLightHitomi that many websites try to cram too much in to one screen which results in utter confusion as the eye traverses it.  That white space (or whatever colour space that your particular colour scheme allows) is very important for readability.  On reflection, that's probably why the new look did appeal to me - while there might be less visible threads in the viewing area at one time, the overall look is less cluttered, easier to read and definitely feels right.

Most of the tweaks, I think, are to do with making sure information we rely on (group number, tags) is a) there (ie not gone missing) and b) where we might expect it to best sit.  :>
swordchucks
member, 1368 posts
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 15:46
  • msg #45

Re: New site design

Skald:
Not comfortable assuming that those who didn't vote for whatever reason actually preferred the least popular option.

I didn't mean to imply that.  And... I was going to say some other stuff, but I went and looked at that poll and have the best reason not to bank on it: it's old.  14 years old.  A child born the day that poll closed is going to be in high school next year.  It largely predates phone-posting as a concept and if it's a question we need an answer to, then the poll should be redone.

As for the rest... I agree that keeping a clean, simple layout (or, at least, adding enough customization options that one can easily get a clean, simple layout) is the way to go aesthetically.  Functionality is still my #1, though.
locojedi
member, 137 posts
Wed 12 Apr 2017
at 16:54
  • msg #46

Re: New site design

Will the Wikis be integrated into the site now, or still remain sort of a separate beast?
Vinny
member, 564 posts
Thu 13 Apr 2017
at 10:28
  • msg #47

Re: New site design

Obviously would be nice if we never had to change but I agree with the necessity and have no real problems with the new interface. Thanks for putting the work in jase :)
Skald
moderator, 768 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 13 Apr 2017
at 13:20
  • msg #48

Re: New site design

Something else interesting with the polls ... I had a look at the two on age demographics and crunched some numbers:

The first one was in 2003 and had a split ~76% under 30 and ~24% over 30, while at the time of the second one (let's assume 2013 cos that's a nice round decade later vs the obviously wrong date that is showing on it for some reason) that split was ~60% under 30 and ~36% over 30 (the remaining % were not specified).

Which means we have an aging RPoL population (hey, it's not the years, it's the mileage) and the site needs to cater to them ... while we obviously also need to attract new blood and the site needs to cater to them ... <grrrins>

That's obviously simplistic (more over 30's may have joined the site than the number of under 30's have left ... or there's fewer joining now but everyone who's still here is now 10 years older), but it shows the difficulty in trying to design to make everyone happy across generational gaps.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1119 posts
Thu 13 Apr 2017
at 21:55
  • msg #49

Re: New site design

Where do we find polls anyway?

I agree that a 14 year old poll has likely lost considerable accuracy. Still, making both brackets work would be the ultimate solution.

I also noticed that instead of lines, colored bars are used. I think the lines are better, especially on a small screen.
LoreGuard
member, 631 posts
Fri 14 Apr 2017
at 01:37
  • msg #50

Re: New site design

Any chance to see a variant of the beta site that would point at a read only copy of the current Rpol games. Or offer a game import like in one of your prior versions?

In general I have liked what I have seen.  I have tried flipping my device portrait vs lanscape comparing views and trying to contemplate what might make it better, which seems like there might be something but I haven't been able to put a finger on it yet.

One thing, which I assume just hasn't been touched yet was the formatting controlled under the edit boxes look like they need to be set up to wrap, based on available space so that it doesn't run the page size way right.  (Or might be a menu instead of formatting line if it gets smaller than a certain size.
jase
admin, 3553 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 03:05
  • msg #51

Re: New site design

In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 50):

No, but I can kind of do one better.  http://responsive.rpol.net is this site using the responsive design.  I've just posted this using http://responsive.rpol.net.

http://beta.rpol.net is an isolated testing area, you can do whatever you want there and it doesn't matter.  http://responsive.rpol.net is this site, so whatever you do will affect http://rpol.net.
nauthiz
member, 516 posts
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 05:15
  • msg #52

Re: New site design

It's actually really helpful to be able to look at the same information presented in two different ways.

A few things that jump out immediately.

Is there a way currently to differentiate between a post topic you've read and one you haven't in a specific game/forum?  Not having the image cue to differentiate quickly is a bit disadvantageous in large forums like Community Chat.

Likewise, one of the things I didn't realize I used a lot until it's gone are the number of replies for a given post.  I think the way I most often use it is in the Advertisement forums to tell what's a new game/person looking for something vs an older one still searching/bumping.

In reference to an earlier comment, the image scaling works very very well now that I have a chance to see it in action.  There's a particular thread in one of my games that has several reference images of various sizes posted and always blows up the formatting when accessed on my phone.  The new code allows for a much easier time seeing not only the images but the text that goes along with them as well, so kudos on that.
byzantinex
member, 94 posts
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 13:28
  • msg #53

Re: New site design

In reply to jase (msg # 51):

WOOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!!! :D :D :D

1) First / Last links don't work, they open at the top of the page.

2) Bottom link doesn't work.

3) Game Menu and Main Menu links in the footer would be really helpful to avoid having to scroll all the way to the top.

Bottom, line SO EXCITED!!! THANK YOU JASE!!!
pdboddy
member, 522 posts
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 15:03
  • msg #54

Re: New site design

In reply to jase (msg # 51):

Ooh, this is nice. :)
steelsmiter
member, 1711 posts
AWE, BESM, Fate, Indies
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 15:38
  • msg #55

Re: New site design

That's cool, but for some reason, I clicked on deleted games and could not hide them with a second click.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1120 posts
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 23:45
  • msg #56

Re: New site design

Definitely nice to look around a populated site with the new look. Can't wait for dark though since I dislike light themes.

#   I still dislike having meta-post info stuffed between posts.

#   It would be nice if we could manually dictate the page width and then possibly zoom in/out.

I haven't been able to look on a desktop (mine doesn't have internet), but A) I like smaller text and manually setting size with zoom seems a good way to get just the right width and text size for me, and done right, it would do the same for everyone with one tool, B) I always hate how on my desktop I can't look at text files fullscreen without fiddling around with font sizes because having each line of text be 3-4 sentances long actually makes reading difficult even if the font size itself is reasonable to read. So making the page width manually overrideable could be beneficial to everyone.

#   I don't like the drop down menus, though I suspect they are a required evil in this case, I'd love for those suspicions to be proven groundless.

#   The page numbers at the bottom of the screen are stacked vertically for some reason, and each seems to have a really tall click box making the entire set about two screens tall (in landscape view, my preferred view).

Also, as screen size goes down, the larger those numbers should be (perhaps put in boxes). Modern touchscreens are less accurate than old ones (my pocket pc could accurately register a touch within a pixel of where I clicked, every single touch, which is impossible on modern screens), especially when people use fingers, and this makes it harder to click on a single character without accidently clicking on either of the adjacent characters.

It doesn't come up often for me, but when it does, I have to zoom in real close so I can click on the page number I want accurately.
swordchucks
member, 1369 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 12:49
  • msg #57

Re: New site design

DarkLightHitomi:
#   I still dislike having meta-post info stuffed between posts.

I'm only experiencing this on my phone, not my PC.  I like it on my phone since I'm not having to zoom as much to read posts.  However, if there was a "force" option in user setting somewhere, that might be the best of both worlds.

As a real item, it took me entirely too long to figure out that "Post a new topic" at the bottom of the thread is actually the "post a reply" button.
pdboddy
member, 523 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 14:26
  • msg #58

Re: New site design

In reply to swordchucks (msg # 57):

Well, now I know how to reply to a thread...
byzantinex
member, 95 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 14:39
  • msg #59

Re: New site design

In reply to pdboddy (msg # 58):

That made me nervous, b/c I think if the subject is different it makes a whole new thread?

I've just been hitting reply to the last message and deleting the "in reply to" text. :D

Either way, I've been using the responsive.rpol.net site exclusively since jase made the above announcement and I love it!
Luctius
member, 9 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 15:26
  • msg #60

Re: New site design

For some reason, the thread name and post number stick more out in this design, for me atleast.
In addition, on the pc, I don't like how the side menu shrinks the available message area, since that is the main purpose of this site I would make rather have the menu harder to reach than shrink the message area to about 1/3rd of the screen. Having the message area run until the end of what the header is now would create a better balance in my opinion.

That said, I think it looks good. (firefox: 1900x1080).
This message was last edited by the user at 15:31, Mon 17 Apr 2017.
LoreGuard
member, 632 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 21:58
  • msg #61

Re: New site design

In reply to jase (msg # 51):

This is really nice being able look at the established games from this view (the new one)!

I agree that something to make the threads stand out which have new messages in them would be great.  (could be an icon such as the fireball or could be something like underlining, bolding, or anything like that to make it stand out.)

I also noticed the view all option for a thread has appeared to have vanished, will that be coming back at some point?  It was very helpful for searching threads for things.

Question: would it be reasonable for a user preference that would force the layout to use the template for the narrowest screen for the header (having all the menus iconized at the top) and force the space underneath to be the two column with poster info the left and information on the right if someone liked that formatting? Sort of a Legacy layout option?

p.s.
When the Main menu turns into a dropdown (semi-iconized), it seems like its options don't work, is that just me?
This message was last edited by the user at 22:01, Mon 17 Apr 2017.
locojedi
member, 141 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 23:51
  • msg #62

Re: New site design

So... apparently I'm going to have to just get a newer phone. My old phone is a ruggedized stallion and I'm loathe to give it up because it's been through everything and keeps on tickin'. But I'm unable to upgrade the firmware nor upgrade the built in browser (firefox) it's an old android phone (G'Zone Casio). I also have tried using the new site design in Operamini which I was able to download and get working. My problem seems to be with menus in general and drop-downs or graphics buttons. The menu either opens with the page in full, blocking all the content (most annoying is the menu hides the input boxes for login and password.

Also, there are other issues. For example, when looking at a game, only the first thread in a topic is displayed, no others. In Opera mini, only the text links work, anything with a button or an image is unresponsive. It makes further testing nearly impossible.

Is there a chance, when you're finished with the responsive upgrade, to point it to rpol.net, and have the old layout still available at something like old.rpol.net? Since you're doing just the opposite now for testing purposes, it seems like that ought to be a possibility. That way those of us who prefer the old site layout could still use it, and it would deprecate well on older hardware and devices...

I don't mean to be negative or sound whiny. I had a strong feeling that my phone wouldn't handle more modern layouts. I just don't want to have to give up the best darn cell phone I've ever owned! ;-) I fully realize I'm in the minority. Perhaps I *AM* the minority, and that's ok, I'm not one to stand in the way of progress. This new site isn't the only one that breaks badly on my device.

BTW, I'm typing this on the computer, and on the PC (Linux), it's working just fine. I see a couple of the issues others have pointed out, but I'm not getting anything different from what they have on the PC. The smatrphon is a totally different story though.

Also, can screen-shots be posted in this forum by linking them off-site? Maybe if I showed what I'm seeing it would be easier to understand.
jase
admin, 3554 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 18 Apr 2017
at 01:12
  • msg #63

Re: New site design

Did I mentioned the site's really really unfinished and stuff will be broken/missing all over the place?  You're mostly seeing the framework for how the site will look/function as a whole, no one page is done.  So if something doesn't work anywhere then it needs attention.  If something specific doesn't work on one particular page then it probably hasn't been done yet.

LoreGuard:
p.s.
When the Main menu turns into a dropdown (semi-iconized), it seems like its options don't work, is that just me?

Now that is something that should work everywhere.  I'd actually noticed it too but wasn't sure if it was my phone.  Thanks for that, should now work (might need to do a deep refresh to get the new CSS).


That said I've also fixed the missing "new message" icon as well as the "bottom" link (plus new/last links from the game menu).


Can have an "old" website but it'll be stuck in time at the current version.  As things get added to the functionality to the site it won't be updated to reflect these changes.  Some things could just be a visual oddity but others could break entirely (e.g. if the back-end database schema changes significantly).  As much as I don't want to alienate anyone I can't really do nothing because of ancient phones, browsers or operating systems that the manufacture no longer supports.
LoreGuard
member, 633 posts
Tue 18 Apr 2017
at 15:35
  • msg #64

Re: New site design

In reply to jase (msg # 63):

I've noticed in several cases the User/Account icon seems to be lower than it should be.  I first noticed it on the front screen when I wasn't logged in, then also noticed it showing up now even when logged in.  Only seems to be a problem when it is the icon. (so narrower layout)

I also noticed that in the Rmail screen, the thread details looks messed up, it takes up multiple lines, but each row doesn't appear to expand size to fit the data, and the data doesn't use up the horizontal space it is given.  The private messages screen looks much better, so I suspect the rmail one just hasn't but updated yet.

However, I will note that since the Private Messages screen has numerous columns, its width is important.  One the screen I just looked at I noticed that comment data runs over into the (this game) menu, appearing to overwrite some of it.

At least based on teh current layout, the horizontal space seems important, you might potentially consider having it fold the side menu items up sooner (or might need to work up a different layout from the table, potentially multi-line list?)

Basically for the Private Messages screen, I like the layout with side menu at the max size, but probably would feel like is should switch to the drop down menus at the top somewhere close to half the size difference that it currently takes to get there.  At least that is my initial reaction/feedback.

If instead, the messages screens are going to look more like the main game thread screens, it seems like there is extra lines between the thread name and the details information, as well as following the thread details information.

Wondering, for the narrowest layout, I'm wondering if, although it might not be the most efficient use of space, I'm wondering if you indented the post information just a small distance, for instance the normal paragraph indent distance, if it might give a visual cue not related to coloration on what parts are posting.  [that is just a thought to throw out there, still contemplating merit myself]

At first I was going to ask that if in the narrowest framework, would it be possible to have the "(GM, # posts)" and the "Profile|Info|Rolls" floated over to the right, similar to how "quote | reply | edit |delete" are floated in the main post?  However, then I looked at a different thread, and realized that is where the images are, so that explains that a lot.  However, I wonder if it would be possible to in the narrowest layout, if it would be possible to have it only display the name, GM/player #posts and time information and Image, but if someone clicks in that metabox, have it open a menu, displaying the Bio information at the top of the menu, and the different items like profile, info, and rolls as options that would take them to those specific locations?

Actually, in all the layouts, could you float the msg ## over to the right above the "quote | reply | edit |delete" links in the main post part?  (but in the same small font)



P.s. - Just tried replying to a thread where I am a GM and I noticed it forced me to type a new subject.  It seemed to not pick up the default subject from the prior message.

p.p.s. - Just verified, it is when you do the Post a Reply from the This Thread menu that it behaves that way, clicking on the reply link in a specific post does seem to pull in the Subject from the post.
This message was last edited by the user at 18:01, Tue 18 Apr 2017.
ninthbit
member, 697 posts
Steampunk Advocate
My profile has goodies
Thu 20 Apr 2017
at 19:48
  • msg #65

Suggestion

If I could make a suggestion...  Adding an "apple-touch-icon" would be a nice addition.  When the site is saved to the launcher, it's not getting an icon.

I already have one here if you just want to copy it:
http://www.evilknights.com/rpol/apple-touch-icon.png

The site just needs a simple tag, eg:
[Link rel="apple-touch-icon" href="http://responsive.rpol.net/apple-touch-icon.png" /]
jase
admin, 3556 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 22 Apr 2017
at 12:11
  • msg #66

Re: New site design

LoreGuard:
P.s. - Just tried replying to a thread where I am a GM and I noticed it forced me to type a new subject.  It seemed to not pick up the default subject from the prior message.

I'm actually thinking about removing the subject for each post.  98.1054444205959% (can you tell I've crunched the numbers?) of the time the subject is left unchanged so I'm thinking it's pretty redundant/pointless.

ninthbit (and yay for non-standard html!) has quite inconveniently contradicted me, but on those rare occasions that you do need some sort of title then there's a few ways to do that.  (c;
ninthbit
member, 698 posts
Steampunk Advocate
My profile has goodies
Sat 22 Apr 2017
at 21:53
  • msg #67

Re: New site design

In reply to jase (msg # 66):

To be fair, I only put in a subject because I'm using the responsive site (loving it) and it made me put in a subject.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1127 posts
Sun 23 Apr 2017
at 02:16
  • msg #68

Re: New site design

I agree with removing the subject or perhaps making it optional. Actually, making it optional would be nice because then, instead of some small thing that impedes readability, it can remain unseen most of the time, but then be used as a heading when appropriate, such as during transitions from one scene or topic, or to note change in date when the story leaps ahead, or similar uses. Not that it is needed to do that but it could be used that way.
Skald
moderator, 769 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 23 Apr 2017
at 04:44
  • msg #69

Re: New site design

+1 for removing subject.  Name the new thread once and then don't need it again.

With 98% of subjects never changing from the original title, I don't think it'd even be worth making it optional - as jase said, you can always begin a particular post with formatted text to denote the transition, eg:

Round 4

In the Temple

Stardate 2259.55

Or any/all of the above:

Stardate 2259.55 - In the Temple - Round 4
bigbadron
moderator, 15345 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 23 Apr 2017
at 05:57

Re: New site design

-1 for removing the subject.

If it's removed, will somebody also go back and edit in the little piece of formatted text in every post where I had previously changed the subject to denote a change of location, a new combat round, or incremental in-game time information?

eg: Round 3 round up to Round 4 round up.

eg: Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 13:05 becoming Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 13:20 then later switching to Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 13:30.

Or will older posts retain the subject line, while new ones have to do without it?

It's like the bio lines, they're essentially useless, except that some people found a use for them (displaying ongoing character information next to their posts).  Will they also be removed because they're "redundant/pointless"?

Keep the subject line - it is used in some games (including some very long-running ones).
Skald
moderator, 771 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 23 Apr 2017
at 06:09
  • msg #71

Re: New site design

... I HATE backwards compatibility !  <grins>

A goodly point.

Depending on how the database is set up (and only jase knows that), it might be possible to do a one-off datafix to merge the old subject with the post.

Simple IF test (pardon my pseudocode) -> If NewSubject <> Old Subject then ThisPost = Bold(NewSubject) + NewLine + ThisPost

Could claw back a little bit disk space.  :>

Or if the database structure doesn't lend itself to that then making Subject optional might be our solution.
Flarelord
member, 363 posts
Sun 23 Apr 2017
at 12:30
  • msg #72

Re: New Site Design

Huh,I just found this, and am trying to post this response from the responsive site.

Anyway, interesting design. I have a few minor requests/curiosities: A) When i went to click Post a Reply, I had to go all the way back to the top of the page to do so :D  I kind of liked the permanent fixed header/footer, but that probably can't work with a 'responsive' site. 2) Similarly, I like full/adaptive width, like RPOL currently has, and I'm curious if that's an option, at all.  I think it might be... managable to get used to, but yeah. It's not going to be easy... I am not really a fan of the right hand sidebar full of buttons/functions.

Fortunately, at least it seems to work alright from my PS4, which is where I do half my posting (yay USB Keyboard)

Oddity: The Subject line was blank when I entered this page, and I got an Error! Please enter a subject. I wrote in the Re: New Site Design as it should be. Let's see how that works...
swordchucks
member, 1385 posts
Mon 24 Apr 2017
at 15:18
  • msg #73

Subjects and Sidebars

Alright, so I'd mainly messed with this on my phone, where the layout is very different.  As some are suggesting in this thread, I'm now posting a reply to this thread using the responsive site on my desktop :)

Anyway, having "post a reply" at the top right of a long thread isn't great.  I'd like to have a "post a reply" button down on the bottom where I am when I get done reading the thread.

The second item is the subject.  Would it be possible to do it the way that gmail does it and have it an option, but by default it goes to the last thing?  I do think it's useful to have posts be an option, but it's also something that only gets edited maybe 10% of the time, overall, so taking the focus off of it is probably fine.
LoreGuard
member, 634 posts
Tue 25 Apr 2017
at 14:48
  • msg #74

Subjects and Sidebars

Doing away with Subject! ?

But that was another 'game' in one of my game's OOC; to see how long it would take before people would notice that the subject had changed.  Made for some funny OOC conversations in that game.  How will we ever have fun in games.... oh... yeah... playing... sorry got side-tracked.

Anyway, I understand why some feel it is redundant, but I know it has been useful at times in games, and like BBR says, it would certainly be a loss to old game information unless there was some sort of accommodation to get that data back somehow.

Making it optional seems to certainly be the most flexible option, but I'd also understand how being optional might seem like too much coding work, but if considered viable, it seems like the better option.  It might be less work than trying to recover old subject data.

I do agree however, that when it isn't changing, it shouldn't really need to take up extra space on the screen since that can at time be a massive premium in cases like phones, and of course if possible, saving space in the database would be good too.  (although that space might not be able to be saved if it is an optional with a fixed width field)
Utsukushi
member, 1415 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Tue 25 Apr 2017
at 16:48
  • msg #75

Subjects and Sidebars

I am also a -1 on removing the Subject - mainly because we just thought of a use for it last night.  So, um, no, in my prior however-many-years-on-RPoL, I haven't used it and rarely even look at it, I agree.

But the new Chill system has this thing tracking a line of light and dark tokens, which the GM or players can `flip' to get various advantages or activate certain abilities.  And the only convenient place I can think to put that on RPoL, where everyone could see it, use it, and track it continually throughout a thread... is the Subject line, where it would work perfectly.

Now, obviously, that's a single system, it's new, and it's probably not worth writing a new feature for.  But it might be worth keeping an already-existing feature for.  Especially when it's such an open-ended feature as the Subject Line, where people can put all kinds of things.  I'm sure there are other games where it could be helpful.

...But having not seen a use for it until just now.. well, yeah, it could probably be optional.  Or, as Swordchucks says, only show when it changes.  That actually seems pretty ideal.  Sort of automatically brings it in if people are using it, and automatically lets it fade away if they aren't.  And draws attention to it when it changes, if, say, the GM is using it to track time-and-date, for example.
Flarelord
member, 369 posts
Tue 25 Apr 2017
at 16:59
  • msg #76

Subjects and Sidebars

My only issue with Subject is that having to retype the subject as you currently need to is incredibly inconvenient, if you don't mean to change it.  :D  This is likely a minor oversight and not a real issue. I'm all for keeping editable subject, but I just want it to default to the last reply's subject as it does on the normal site atm :D Again, probably just an oversight, I was mentioning the issue in case it was unnoticed.
Skald
moderator, 774 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 11:57
  • msg #77

Subjects and Sidebars

Pretty sure (in the 99.9999 etc percentile confidence range) that the current blank subject on the responsive site is one of the many things that haven't been done yet.  :>

Looks like we're leaning towards an optional line, though, which I think would result in the box being left blank deliberately.  Compulsory to fill it in for the first post in a new thread (cos that's going to be the new thread's title in the game menu), and after that, it's optional.

I see this as showing the subject on the first post and on any subsequent posts where someone types the subject in, EG

Post 1 - INITIAL SUBJECT  compulsory
Post 2 - <no subject>  subject field left blank
Post 3 - <no subject>  subject field left blank
Post 4 - NEW SUBJECT  shows on Post 4 header only
Post 5 - <no subject>  subject field left blank

Again, a data fix may be possible to tidy up old posts by iterating through all the posts and deleting a subject if it's the same as the previous post, so it drills down to the unique subject headings ... but that might take a while - we have a lot of historical post data.  Might end up just drawing a line and starting from then.  Assuming the optional subject option gets voted up and is possible.

Personally I don't need subject beyond thread title, but optional subject will produce nearly the same result (players can still type in subject in my nice tidy threads if they want to, but I'll try to control my OCD) so I can live with that.  :>
Utsukushi
member, 1417 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 15:48
  • msg #78

Subjects and Sidebars

For what I see it being useful for, it has to copy down automatically from the last post, like it does now. (Well, like it does now on the real RPoL, I mean, not the way it doesn't currently on the responsive site, obviously.)  So if we want it optional, I'd suggest maybe when a Thread is first created, there be, like, a "Persistent Subject?" tickbox next to it, or something.  That way if there IS a Subject, it continues to work the way it always has and the way people will expect it to, but if you don't want it, you can make it go away.
horus
member, 126 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 15:57
  • msg #79

Re: Subjects and Sidebars

Skald:
{snipped:  stuff I'm not replying to}

I see this as showing the subject on the first post and on any subsequent posts where someone types the subject in, EG

Post 1 - INITIAL SUBJECT  compulsory
Post 2 - <no subject>  subject field left blank
Post 3 - <no subject>  subject field left blank
Post 4 - NEW SUBJECT  shows on Post 4 header only
Post 5 - <no subject>  subject field left blank


Post 4- NEW SUBJECT shows on Post 4 header and header of all subsequent replies to Post 4 presently.  Are you aiming to change that?

The Subject field is a rudimentary organizational tool that I'd sorely miss were it removed.
Low Key
member, 224 posts
Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 16:31
  • msg #80

Re: Subjects and Sidebars

quote:
For what I see it being useful for, it has to copy down automatically from the last post, like it does now. (Well, like it does now on the real RPoL, I mean, not the way it doesn't currently on the responsive site, obviously.)


I'm posting this from the responsive site, and the subject behaves like it always used to for me.
I hit 'reply', the subject line is populated, and I can either leave it (which I've done) or I could change it if I wanted.

I use the 'reply' link in the top corner of a message, rather than the 'reply to this thread' from the drop down menu. Both out of habit, and because once I've scrolled all the way down to the bottom to read the latest post I don't want to scroll all the way back to the top, to open a menu, to pick an option when I can just hit the link that's right here for me.
LoreGuard
member, 635 posts
Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 19:53
  • msg #81

Re: Subjects and Sidebars

Flarelord:
My only issue with Subject is that having to retype the subject as you currently need to is incredibly inconvenient, if you don't mean to change it.  :D  This is likely a minor oversight and not a real issue...

At present, from my experience, if you click on the Reply (or quote like this) link inside a specific post, it carries the subject line through for you automatically.  Clicking on the Post a reply on the side does seem to behave the other way, however, as you mention.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:58, Wed 26 Apr 2017.
LoreGuard
member, 636 posts
Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 20:16
  • msg #82

Maps and Images

Question, would there potentially be inclusion/use of SVG tags and options in our maps or images?

I've seen how it can be used to generate an 'imagespace' and I'm wondering if it might open up a possibility to have a feature that could be developed to allow the GM or potentially even players to specify locations on a map for their 'official rpol profile picture' to be overlay-ed on the base map image instead of the gm having to re-create the image each time there is movement.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1132 posts
Thu 27 Apr 2017
at 06:11
  • msg #83

Maps and Images

What are svg tags?
Skald
moderator, 775 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 27 Apr 2017
at 13:48
  • msg #84

Maps and Images

<readreadread> Which gives us three variations on the theme:

1) Persistent Subject - as now (or we could call it Compulsory Subject)

2) Thread title only - Subject only appears on first post

3) Optional Subject - Compulsory for first post, field blanked and only shown in subsequent post headers when completed


Which can be done by adding |X| Persistent subject check box on first post and having optional subject field.


For 1) tick Persistent subject and for subsequent posts, subject field is prefilled with last subject and is compulsory.

For 2) don't tick Persistent subject and for subsequent posts, subject field is not prefilled and left blank and therefore doesn't show in post headers.

For 3) don't tick Persistent subject and for subsequent posts, subject field is not prefilled and only completed when you want a new subject header to appear on a post.

Covers both existing and proposed new functionality.  Also means that existing threads stay exactly as they are now, with no data conversion necessary.

I'd vote for that !  ;>


SVG tags ... if it helps, Mr Google says that "SVG is a language for describing 2D graphics in XML. Canvas draws 2D graphics, on the fly (with a JavaScript). SVG is XML based, which means that every element is available within the SVG DOM. You can attach JavaScript event handlers for an element."  Whatever that means.  But I'm thinking that won't be supported as RPoL has deliberately stayed away from Javascript.
horus
member, 129 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Thu 27 Apr 2017
at 21:01
  • msg #85

Maps and Images

In reply to Skald (msg # 84):

Wow... and here I'd thought that SVG stood for Scaleable Vector Graphics such as are produced by InkScape, Visio, Abode Illustrator, etc.

I had no idea this was being accomplished within an XML framework.  If it's XML another scripting language (such as PHP or Perl) could be used to do the scripting.  I don't think anything ties us to Javascript (except maybe predefined libraries that might make it easier.)

I gotta go dig on this now - it might solve another problem I've been working on.

UPDATE:  Potentially Useful Link:
Add the Graphics Power of SVG to PHP

Thanks!
This message was last edited by the user at 21:34, Thu 27 Apr 2017.
jase
admin, 3558 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 28 Apr 2017
at 06:12
  • msg #86

Maps and Images

I'm not keen on making an option on how the subject behaves.  An option for under 2% utilisation seems like a waste.  If we can't agree that the subject is optional (or redundant) then I'd say it'll have to stay as mandatory.  Personally I have nothing against having a subject, I just don't see why we have to Re:iterate it adnauseum!

As for SVG, yes they are Scaleable Vector Graphics.  Yes they are, underneath, XML.  But everything's something under the hood.  They're a great way of having a dynamically sized image.  Inside the XML you might say "there's a line that's 100 pixels in length" but when you render you can make it twice as large or twice as small, and it'll draw the line as either 200 or 50 pixels.  It doesn't resize the image, it recalculates how the entire image is rendered, and I think that's the power of SVGs.

They're more orientated around geometrical shapes and so do have some limitations on what you can draw with them, but they're very powerful (and normally very efficient).

If you're on the responsive site you're seeing one already up the top left -- the impossible cube.  Visit http://responsive.rpol.net/images/impossible_cube.svg, the image will be huge (but it's scaleable, remember) but view the source and you'll see only 39 lines of XML.  That's the entire image and I can make it 100 pixels wide or 10,000 without any loss in fidelity.
Skald
moderator, 776 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 29 Apr 2017
at 04:57
  • msg #87

Maps and Images

Subject: h'mmm ... since we can do our own quasi-subject heading with bold/underline,
I guess it comes down to how those existing posts that do have different subjects would be handled - could a data conversion be done to format them appropriately and tack them on to the related post ?

SVG: <grrins> Mr Google thanks you, horus.  I of course know nothing about 'em !  ;>
LoreGuard
member, 637 posts
Mon 1 May 2017
at 17:15
  • msg #88

Maps and Images

I wasn't just talking about using SVG typed images, which I had presumed already would have been an option, but was wondering if you were considering use of the SVG tag in HTML5.  Not in order to necessarily tie javascript in, but to allow you to use some of its sizing controls, and image drawing aspects within web pages.  [which if you look at my example, there is and example of pulling a PNG image in as a drawn element in the below page.

I wasn't sure how much of HTML5 aspects you were going to consider for use in the new site.  [hence hey I'm asking here]

Also note, the code below would expect to find an example.png file in the same folder as the html file.



<html>
<head>
<style>
body {
    background-color: linen;
}

h1 {
    color: maroon;
    margin-left: 40px;

}
svg circle.art {fill : gold}
svg text { stroke : blue }
svg text.Station { stroke : red }
svg text.Person { stroke : purple}

</style>

</head>
<body>
<svg  xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" version="1.1" width=600 height=600>
<circle class=art cx=300 cy=300 r=250   />
<image height=1403 width= 1073 xlink:href='Example.png' />
<svg x=100 y=100 height=100 width=100>
<circle class=marker cx='50' cy='20' r='10' fill='red' stroke='blue' stroke-width='5'/>
<text Class=Station text-anchor='middle' x=50 y=50 align=center
>Station</text>
<text Class=Person text-anchor='middle' x=50 y=65 align=center
>New Hope</text>
</svg>
</svg>
</body>
</html>
Mad Mick
member, 894 posts
Ain't sayin nothin
Got nothin to say
Thu 11 May 2017
at 09:35
  • msg #89

Maps and Images

I've been using the Reply link in the bottom message to post replies in the thread.  I'm on the responsive site and using my iPhone.  I do miss the Reply to Topic button at the bottom of the thread in the current version of RPOL, though.
jase
admin, 3561 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 11 May 2017
at 11:28

Maps and Images

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 89):

That'll come.  I've noticed a few functionality annoyances myself.


Regarding SVG, I don't think allowing the XML code for SVG within an actual message (i.e. what you typed actually working) is going to work, there's just so much xml/html there to try and account for an allow.  I think in opening messages up to be able to have SVG would also end up pretty much allowing any xml/html code.  I think good ol' "img src" is still the way to go.
LoreGuard
member, 640 posts
Mon 5 Jun 2017
at 17:28
  • msg #91

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

Two items:

Shouldn't one be able to get to see their old private messages in games they aren't playing in, to review old RTJ or to review old conversations in games you are lurking in?  The private messages menu item doesn't show up in those cases, you only seem to have the ability to create a new thread, or if the link is blue, it will take you to one that they had responded to, but they would have had to respond to have the opportunity to review it.

I find I click on the Impossible Cube image a lot as a shortcut to get back to the main menu, which I like.  I wish there was a similar fast/quick shortcut to get me back to the current game/forum main menu, even in the small display.  Maybe displaying the primary GM's avatar in the top right corner, opposite the impossible cube, for instance might work, just as a potential suggestion, of something that could have a quick link to the game main menu?

Thanks!
Waxahachie
member, 150 posts
The horn that wakes
the sleepers
Mon 12 Jun 2017
at 18:33
  • msg #92

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

Overall, I like it.

That said, with the stated goal of bringing in new members to the site, I would think a more prominent placement of Browse/Search games would be helpful. That's all from me!
Mad Mick
member, 896 posts
Ain't sayin nothin
Got nothin to say
Fri 16 Jun 2017
at 04:53
  • msg #93

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

I second Waxahachie's recommendation.  Quite a number of new users seem to have trouble figuring out how to find games to join.

I've been using the responsive site a bit, and I love the ability to scale the game threads in whatever size window I choose.

However, I still like the relatively more minimalist look of the current layout.  I can see more on the current screen than I can on the responsive site.  Another website I frequent changed over a few years ago to a responsive layout, and there, too, it has become harder to scan for what I need, and I have to scroll more.

It's OK, just different, and I find that after I use the responsive site for a bit, I switch back over to the original site.  It's great, though, for when I want to compose a post in Notepad.  I can resize the RPOL window and not have to scroll horizontally to read posts while I'm working in Notepad.  That's a nice change.
Samus Aran
member, 328 posts
Author, game designer
Part-time Metroid fighter
Sat 17 Jun 2017
at 02:38
  • msg #94

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

The new site looks pretty good! It's a little difficult to adjust, I've been on this one for so many years, but it's gonna be nice. Very slick, modernized, but although things are in different places, all the vital stuff is still there. I'm excited to see this thing go live.

I didn't see it yet, so can I raise that age-old question: with the new site, will it be possible to implement a way to link to specific posts? That's basically the one functionality (besides the reclassification of the portrait system, as I posted about in another thread) that I'm really missing from RPOL. If we can't, we can't, it's certainly not a dealbreaker.

Thanks for all your hard work!
Skald
moderator, 781 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 17 Jun 2017
at 06:32

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

RPoL already has the ability to link to a specific post.  :>

Here's a link to your msg #94 above as an example:

link to a message in this forum

Syntax is:

http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=36224&ti=834&msgpage=&show=all#94

  • gi is game index
  • ti is thread index
  • you can find both gi and ti by opening the specific thread and looking in the address bar in your browser
  • the number right at the end is the message in that thread to which you want to link
  • show=all argument is required otherwise link won't work once thread goes to multiple pages
  • doesn't work if the linked post has been deleted (obviously)


Though I guess it might be nice to have a 'copy link' or just plain 'link' option up there with all the other post options ('quote | reply | edit | delete') to take all the fun hard work out of it.  ;>
Samus Aran
member, 329 posts
Author, game designer
Part-time Metroid fighter
Sat 17 Jun 2017
at 07:34
  • msg #96

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

Haha, yes, that's what I would hope for. Best-case scenario is that "msg #95" in the upper right corner also serves as a hyperlink to that particular post. Do you think that sort of function is doable? Would it help if I said "pretty please?" Would it help if I made up and sang you a bardic epic of the land of ice and snow?
accident
member, 1 post
Sat 29 Jul 2017
at 01:21
  • msg #97

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

Fantastic work, it's looking awesome so far! I actually came looking through the forums to suggest a responsive layout - looks like you're 10 steps ahead of me.

A somewhat small thing - a bit of horizontal padding on the text will help improve readability (tested on a phone, text butts right up against the side).
Mad Mick
member, 901 posts
The end
is in the beginning
Fri 4 Aug 2017
at 03:47
  • msg #98

Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

I find that I'm choosing to bounce between rpol.net and responsive.rpol.net.  The reponsive site is excellent for having the game thread up while I'm composing a post in Notepad and for reading game threads on my phone.  At times on rpol.net, especially if there's an oversized image in a post, the lines stretch out too far to easily read them without scrolling, and the responsive site is so much better in this regard.

However, on my PC and when I'm navigating threads and games on my phone or on my PC, I use the original rpol.net site.  It's probably because it's the most familiar to me, but I can also see more information on the screen at a time without scrolling, and I like that ability, and I don't mind having to zoom in or out to do so.  In the responsive site, there's a ton that's menu-based, which works fine, but it's not quite as convenient as just tapping on the link I want.  I understand the design decision, though.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:48, Fri 04 Aug 2017.
jase
admin, 3563 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 4 Aug 2017
at 06:26

Re: Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

Mad Mick:
In the responsive site, there's a ton that's menu-based, which works fine, but it's not quite as convenient as just tapping on the link I want.  I understand the design decision, though.

There's no denying that the current site has a plethora of links conveniently strewn around the page (though not quite logical, some being in opposite corners and all) and we'll lose some of that in the redesign.  Hopefully once we've used the responsive site some more and made suggestions as to how we can shuffle the links, there won't be much hunting around for the link you need.  Currently it's more of a "lets move this here" rather than an in-depth consideration of where the links should really end up.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1172 posts
Fri 4 Aug 2017
at 18:16
  • msg #100

Re: Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

Personally, the only thing I like better about the responsive site is that the width adjusts, but even that I don't like much as I can't adjust it to what is comfortable for me.

So far, I don't want to switch.
Samus Aran
member, 346 posts
Author, game designer
Part-time Metroid fighter
Tue 8 Aug 2017
at 19:23
  • msg #101

Re: Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

One minor thing that I'm not sure I saw mentioned yet: you can't get to the game intro section except by clicking on The Cast and then the link appears. I recall the main site being like this for a while, but now you can just go click on Game Info in the upper corner and get right to the intro from anywhere. That's a nice feature that I'd like to have brought back (unless I just completely missed it).
horus
member, 215 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Wed 9 Aug 2017
at 01:00
  • msg #102

Re: Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

In reply to Samus Aran (msg # 101):

Yup, it seems like there are only certain places where the Game Introduction (Game Info?) is visible in the right sidebar menu.  Introductory matter should be accessible from the top level of this sidebar, or at least that's how I see it.  (For all I know there's a reason it's done the way it is...)
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1181 posts
Sun 13 Aug 2017
at 02:41
  • msg #103

Re: Private Messages listing and Quick way to main game menu

On a laptop today, and the new site menu option highlight each option as a bar, but the link is only clicked if you click the word itself, which is harder to do, especially with a touchpad and not a full free moving mouse.

Additionally, when I change the window size of my browser (firefox) to be really thin, the second menu* (see below) the menu runs off the left side of the screen hiding part of the words.

Also, making the screen thin, when posting a reply, the preview and submit buttons are above the format options and have no margin space between the buttons and the formating options. The formatting options need more white space amongst them anyway for phone usage. And the cancel link, which isn't even a full button, is right beside the submit button, easy mistake to click one instead of the other right there.

The formatting options also run off the right side of the screen.

You probably know this one already,
The character details page places the character details box halfway off the right side of the screen.

That's all for today

*the pink one with these options

     Main menu
    Your Games
    Watched Games
    Watched Forums
    Discussion Boards
    Deleted Games
    Support RPoL
MalaeDezeld
member, 19 posts
Thu 31 Aug 2017
at 01:31
  • msg #104

Portrai image

I love to read new messages with the responsive site with my phone. I guess that the features I miss (color theme, "Mark all as Read" button, mod having a different scheme) are in the unfinished category.

On the other hand (I'm reporting, because I'm under the impression that the image server is something that mods can config), character portraits doesn't work with the responsive. Either we got a 403 error (in the Character details and the selection) or the "Sorry picture not available" (in threads and the Character description). It is possible to trick the browser for a short time by opening the page in the normal site then going with the responsible.
LoreGuard
member, 648 posts
Fri 1 Sep 2017
at 20:01
  • msg #105

Portrai image

A couple of the Mods have donated storage space for specific image categories, I believe.  So the individual Mods in question might be able to authorize responsive.rpol.net to be a valid linking source, for them to show up.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1196 posts
Mon 18 Sep 2017
at 11:42
  • msg #106

Portrai image

You know, one thing I really appreciate about the original site, speed. While other websites are taking minutes to load, rpol takes seconds.

The rpol beta site however, is nowhere near as fast, though I admit it is faster than most other sites, but it doesn't compare to original rpol at all.
jase
admin, 3567 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 01:16
  • msg #107

Portrai image

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 106):

Check the bottom of the page on the responsive site, it has timings for the page been generated on the server (like the current one does) plus how long it took to render on the browser.

For example, when viewing this thread I'm getting "Generated in 0.149 seconds" for rpol.net and "Generated/rendered in 0.147/1.218 seconds" on responsive.

Generation time won't be much different between the two.  They're fetching the same data from the same server, merely presenting it in different ways (11 KB transferred from rpol.net, 10.9 KB from responsive (both are compressed so about 75% smaller than the actual text)).  If you're finding the rendered time quite slow (several seconds) then try a different browser and compare results.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1199 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 12:10
  • msg #108

Portrai image

It isn't a browser issue, it is a connection issue. After I use 1gb of data, my connection gets slowed. It is supposed to be 2g, but I think it is much slower.

On a good day I get about 1mb per minute download speed, sometimes it takes up to 2 minutes per mb.

Modern sites tend to make use of faster connections available to add lots of flash and pizzazz, and leave us poor folks who can't pay for top speed connections suffering for it. Heck, half the time, the ads auto download more stuff, and images tend to get priority over text for some reason. Though that is mostly on other sites. On a good connection, it goes unnoticed, but on a bad one, it makes a massive difference on forum choice.

For example, I don't even try to go to Overmare Studios without a Starbucks connection anymore.
Skald
moderator, 792 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 14:39
  • msg #109

Portrai image

I'm not seeing any change in graphics on responsive vs old, though - should be pretty much the same, just formatted differently.  Downloading ~11KB shouldn't even be noticeable when comparing normal download speed with shaping.

F'rinstance, on the latest version of Firefox I'm getting a faster generation time than those jase posted above, but slower rendering ... than jase's figures,that is, not sure what old site is, but doesn't feel any different and nothing that worries me particularly:

Generated/rendered in 0.022/2.344 seconds.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1200 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 20:43
  • msg #110

Portrai image

The responsive site isn't bad. It does take longer but I was mostly pointing out something I'd prefer not to lose in the shift to responsive.

There sites out there I just can't visit because the download time. I know it is the download time because if I have a good fast connection, then there isn't a problem.

Just figured it was important to note that speed is still important even in this day and age when some companies would like you to believe that everyone has a T1 line or better.
Skald
moderator, 793 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 30 Sep 2017
at 12:52
  • msg #111

Load speed

Interesting ... just updated Firefox to 56.0 and the responsive site now loading roughly twice as fast - consistently getting numbers such as the below for the Main screen:

Generated/rendered in 0.018/1.036 seconds.
jase
admin, 3568 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 3 Oct 2017
at 10:29
  • msg #112

Portrai image

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 110):

As mentioned responsive is smaller.  Only about 1% smaller due to the fact the whole page is compressed by about 80% before it's transmitted (in raw form it's about 10% smaller, but that's lost in the compression), but the important thing is it is smaller.  So any slowdowns you're seeing are either transient internet issues, device/software issues, or placebo due to unfortunate interactions with other sites (note, flash and pizzazz have nothing to do with responsive sites, there's absolutely none of that here, as should be evident).
Samus Aran
member, 368 posts
Author, game designer
Part-time Metroid fighter
Sat 7 Oct 2017
at 06:02
  • msg #113

Re: Portrai image

LoreGuard:
A couple of the Mods have donated storage space for specific image categories, I believe.  So the individual Mods in question might be able to authorize responsive.rpol.net to be a valid linking source, for them to show up.


Oh, also, I am willing to help out more with the portraits on the new site than I've been able to do here (yet). Organization, uploading, etc. Whatever you folks need! I have suggestions for new categories and reorganized ones, too.
jkeogh
member, 73 posts
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 04:09
  • msg #114

Re: Portrai image

In reply to Samus Aran (msg # 113):

Is there a running bug log for the responsive design?
LonePaladin
member, 675 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 19:24
  • msg #115

Re: Portrai image

Samus Aran:
I have suggestions for new categories and reorganized ones, too.

We could use a category for things that aren't creatures and/or people. Inanimate objects, logos, heraldry, isolated body parts (like "eyes", or "hands", or "mouths" with no context), terrain. Obviously a smaller category than any of the existing ones, but when you're looking for something that isn't a critter it's hard to figure out where to look.
Skald
moderator, 797 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 27 Dec 2017
at 13:27
  • msg #116

Main menu headings

Just noticed that the post number column looks a little weird with the staggered "Posts" text, due to sensibly right justifying the actual number ... would probably look cleaner if we had GM and Posts labels in each header (smaller font is fine, if not better than the section heading) ... plus I suppose it'd save a minuscule amount of bandwidth if it only had to send GM and Posts once per section rather than for each line in it.  Though I think I'd primarily argue aesthetics. ;>
jase
admin, 3590 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 21 Apr 2018
at 02:14
  • msg #117

Small update

Just did a small update to the responsive site.  Hopefully nothing broke but let me know if I managed to.  (c;
jase
admin, 3594 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 25 May 2018
at 14:46
  • msg #118

Another small update

  1. Improved rMail layout.
  2. Formatting bar better... formatted.
  3. Moved private thread screen to responsive.  Still needs tweaking (namely the checkboxes) but should otherwise work.
  4. Other stuff I've already forgotten.  (c;

Genghis the Hutt
member, 2513 posts
Just an average guy :)
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:40
  • msg #119

Re: Another small update

jase:
Moved private thread screen to responsive.
That's over at http://beta.rpol.net right?
bigbadron
moderator, 15570 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:48

Re: Another small update

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 119):

Wrong.  http://responsive.rpol.net/
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2514 posts
Just an average guy :)
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:54
  • msg #121

Re: Another small update

Oh cool!

This responsive site seems very nice, and I'm sure it'll be better on my phone when I look at it tonight.  Is there a way to get the responsive site to use all of my screen when on desktop? :)
bigbadron
moderator, 15571 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:58

Re: Another small update

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 121):

On mine it does use the whole screen.  I believe you have to tweak your browser settings (enlarge the text).
Skald
moderator, 818 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 27 May 2018
at 12:49

Re: Another small update

Following on from a discussion in Community Chat, I'm pleased to note that jase has kindly added the sign up date to the RPoL user information block on the User Preferences page on the new responsive site - http://responsive.rpol.net/usermodules/profile.cgi.

Usual caveat - if you see either "Before 08:00, Sun 23 Oct 2005" or "Before 10:53, Sat 05 May 2007" that means you're old school and an accurate date is not available.

And note the sign up date is only available on the responsive site, not at the main rpol.net site.


Thanks jase !  :>
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1357 posts
Sun 27 May 2018
at 21:24
  • msg #124

Re: Another small update

One thing I notice though about size, you can't tell the website how wide it should be, and I don't mean the display on desktop but rather, you can't tell the website that it should be X characters wide instead of Y characters wide.

I have yet to see that on any responsive site. I don't know if it is a technical limitation, but it is one of the bigger reasons I hate responsive sites. Old school html was the sort that fiddling with the browser was not only an actual option (now-a-days the options of this sort are only on desktops) but because of how old school html worked, it naturally just word-wrapped everything so you could just scale the entire page usually, more importantly, it was global to all sites.

But responsive sites might alter text small amounts, if you're lucky enough to have the option, but not only is each individual now, but giant icons stay giant-sized. You can't even use desktop site and zoom in.

I figure allowing user to set the "X pixels wide" might actually make this adjustable in a workable way, but I lack the appropriate knowledge to try anything of the sort myself (and I've got too many projects right now as it is).
matthewfenn
member, 482 posts
Magic the Gathering
Spreadsheet Developer
Sun 27 May 2018
at 22:55
  • msg #125

Re: Another small update

bigbadron:
In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 121):

On mine it does use the whole screen.  I believe you have to tweak your browser settings (enlarge the text).

I confess I'm not yet a big fan of the responsive site...  I like being able to stretch my web page wide (I have a 3440 x 1440 monitor, and frequently use half of it for a web browser and the other half for Excel...  so roughly 1700 wide browser...  which has a lot of wasted space in the responsive site - whereas on the current site, it spreads the text of posts nice and wide - meaning you can see more posts on the one page...  I'm not sure enlarging the text is going to help me there...
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2516 posts
Just an average guy :)
Mon 28 May 2018
at 15:42
  • msg #126

Re: Another small update

matthewfenn:
roughly 1700 wide browser...  which has a lot of wasted space in the responsive site - whereas on the current site, it spreads the text of posts nice and wide - meaning you can see more posts on the one page...

Same with mine. On desktop, the responsive site has a whole bunch of water space on both sides.

I know there are studies which say that the "optional" size for reading is like 600 or 800 normal pixels wide or something, but I grew up with web browsers that took up the whole screen. I like big wide things that take up all of my screen, and the responsive site doesn't do that.
jase
admin, 3596 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 29 May 2018
at 01:28
  • msg #127

Re: Another small update

We're actually mixing/confusing two things here; responsive and a narrower layout.  They're actually completely independent, though often done hand in hand.

I also have an ultrawide 3440x1440 34" and RPoL is ridiculous if I full screen... actually, let me rephrase that.  Any reading is ridiculous if I make it full screen and the text stretches unabated.

Sure I can snap the window left or right and go half-screen, but then I'm talking about a narrower aspect ratio than a normal monitor... and if we're complaining that the responsive site is too narrow but my normal methodology is to reduce my screen size width then it's really just proving that the current site is too wide.

Every readability guide you'll find will talk about maximum line width (relative to the font size, and normally in conjunction with line height).  Going too long, for the vast majority, reduces reading speed.

Let me take a step back.  When RPoL was originally designed ten years ago the average screen resolution was 1024x768.  If you were lucky this was on a 21" monitor.. and if you haven't figured it out the aspect ratio was a narrow 4x3.  Screen real estate was a premium which is why RPoL has absolutely no margins.

Now we've got huge resolutions, wide or ultrawide monitors and much larger screens.  There has to be a limit on how wide the site can go and all the recommendations talk about a certain length relative to the font size and line height.  We've actually gone wider than the recommendation.  Actually, the recommendation is narrow lines and larger font, but we understand that people are used to the current format and that'd be going too far.

Another reason for limiting the width is that we have to have some limit so we know how we can layout the site.  We can work out the flow, the rhythm (this is all theory though, I'm not really a graphic designer so I'm doing what I can).  It's really great to know the message box will be between xxx pixels and yyy pixels.

That all said, the aim is to make the custom theme designer have a "max width" option.
matthewfenn
member, 483 posts
Magic the Gathering
Spreadsheet Developer
Tue 29 May 2018
at 07:59
  • msg #128

Re: Another small update

quote:
That all said, the aim is to make the custom theme designer have a "max width" option.
Really good to hear that.
quote:
There has to be a limit on how wide the site can go
Why does there have to be a limit?
I appreciate that "readability guides" may well suggest optimum line length and font size for readability - however if it turns from being a guide to a rule - well, that just smacks of the Nanny State.

Different people find different things easier to read in different ways.  I change the width of the window depending on what I'm reading.   Sometimes having it super wide helps.  Sometimes having it narrower is better.  Being able to change it at will by simply stretching the window is ideal.  I just don't get why having a somewhat  arbitrary limit is necessary?
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1358 posts
Tue 29 May 2018
at 10:22
  • msg #129

Re: Another small update

Probably technical limitations. I can't speak for web, but my console programs benefit from knowing the max width. It means that can address a set block of memory for characters to be displayed and test that without worrying that someone might go wider and cause an out of bounds error from trying to display more than can be handled.

That is of course just an example that may not exactly match website issues, but just saying that code sometimes makes assumptions and then enforces them to prevent errors.
jase
admin, 3598 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 9 Jun 2018
at 04:27
  • msg #130

Re: Another small update

matthewfenn:
quote:
There has to be a limit on how wide the site can go

Why does there have to be a limit?
I appreciate that "readability guides" may well suggest optimum line length and font size for readability - however if it turns from being a guide to a rule - well, that just smacks of the Nanny State.

I think you're going a bit a lot over the top there.

As mentioned we went with what's recommended for readability, saw what it looked like and made it even wider.  I wouldn't know good readability and typography if it leapt out of my monitor and slapped me in the face, so we did a lot of research into what those with an eye for such things recommend, and 99% of it was all the same.  We reached what we thought was a good compromise between the recommendations (which is quite a bit narrower) and what we've currently got.  To have it thrown in my face like we're oppressing you is quite ridiculous.

I appreciate feedback but it has to be reasonable.  Yes there's are rules absolutely everywhere.  Currently there's a rule that the logo is in the top left, that the help button is cruelly forced to the top right and we've all railroaded into using Verdana as the site font!

Designing anything is about making decisions.  Rules as you call them.  We've made plenty.  To call it a nanny state because you don't agree with a rule decision is ludicrous and, as you can tell, not appreciated.

As for why there's a max width.. the same as the reason why there's a minimum width we'll code for.  If I shrink the (responsive or current) site to a too narrow view then things start to squash and relocate to places that they're not supposed to... but that's well beyond the minimum with that we support (and well below what any mobile has).  I can test all the way down to the minimum supported width and make sure everything is pixel perfect.

It's not exactly the same with a maximum width, but beyond a certain point things start to be too far apart, ratios are completely wrong and reading speed actually decreases.  Without testing everywhere from one through to crazy we've got no way of knowing how the layout will end up looking.  Having a maximum width means I can grab the side of my browser window and play with the width between the two limits and make sure the layout is correct and functional for the whole range.

One of the biggest boons about having a max width is that we then know how wide the body section of messages will be.  That lets us design around certain constraints, put in certain wrap points to maintain readability, plus start doing some nifty things like putting in lightboxes for images.

Anyway, I'm really just repeating what I've already said so I'll stop.
matthewfenn
member, 485 posts
Magic the Gathering
Spreadsheet Developer
Sat 9 Jun 2018
at 07:31
  • msg #131

Re: Another small update

Sorry Jase, didn't mean it to come across that way.  I humbly beg your forgiveness for my over-the-top response.  I really do appreciate all the effort and hard work you've put into your site over the years - it has given me many, many hours of enjoyment and I really want you to know that your efforts are not unappreciated.

I think the new site design is, for the most part an excellent improvement on general looks and certainly readbility when on a mobile/ipad type device.   My personal opinion is just that on the screen width issue - it's imposing a new limitation that wasn't there before for what seems to me just cosmetic reasons, and I just don't really understand why it is needed.

Sure, for most use-cases, where people are only reading blocks of text, then having a maximum width for comfortable reading is probably a boon...   But sometimes having the ability to make it a lot wider is just, well useful...

For example, posting a really big picture/map, or a large combat grid:
-17-L-K-J-I-H-G-F-E-D-C-B-AABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW
-16...................................
-15................. UU  L ...........
-14.............. .. UU  DM...........
-13.............   &&   .  ...........
-12.............  _&&_  .  ...........
-11.............  _©__  .  ...........
-10.............  ____  .  ...........
-9.............        .  ...........
-8................^^....  ...........
-7................^^....  ...........
-6........        C         .........
-5........       BEM        .....    
-4.......   #.  #.R #.  #.    ...    
-3.......#  ..  ..  ..  ..    /..    
-2........         'Y        .....    
-1........                  .        
1.........#  ..  ..  ..  #..        
2..........  .#  .\   \  ..         
3........                  .        
4    ....                  ....     
5          .#  ./  ./  ./           
6          ..  ..  ..  ..           
7    ....                  ...      
8    .. ..                 .  ......
9    .. ...  ..  ..  ..  ...  .     
10  ........  .\  \.  .#  ..   .     
11  .>>>                   ..!.. @   
12..>>>>                   >>!       
13.>^                      >>!       
14^^                       ..!.. @   
15^^      ..  ./  ./  .#  ......     
16^^     ...  ..  ..  ..  ...  .     
17^<<   ..                  .  ......
18.<<<....                  ...      
19...<.  .  ..  ..  ..  ..    .      
20  ...  .  ..  ..  ..  ..    .      
21                          ...      
22                          .        
23            ..  ..  ..  ...        
24            ..  ..  ..  ...        

Or perhaps a turn in a card game:

TURN TWO
Untap, Upkeep, Draw
1st Main Phase:
Play a Thalakos Lowlands http://magiccards.info/br/en/88.html

Attack Phase:

2nd Main Phase:

End Turn Phase:

LIFE: 40
HAND: 6
DECK: 90
(A 100 card deck)   This deck is legal in:  Commander, Highlander.  - No Errors. - it contains 57 Rares and 9 Mythic and 5 Special (71% of deck), of which 28 are lands.  It has no Sideboard..
Commanders:
Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker - (Legendary Bird Monk, 1/1, {2}{W}{U} (4)
Flying
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker.
Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.))
[http://magiccards.info/c16/en/33.html]
    "Through me, the Great Teacher's voice will rattle this world."
Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix - (Legendary Human Wizard, 2/3, {2}{G}{U} (4)
{T}: Add {C} to your mana pool for each card you've drawn this turn.
Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.))
[http://magiccards.info/c16/en/35.html]
    She bears the greatest burden of all: that of knowing.



BATTLEFIELD:
Land:
    Scattered Groves http://magiccards.info/akh/en/247.html
    ({T}: Add {G} or {W} to your mana pool.)
    Scattered Groves enters the battlefield tapped.
    Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.)

    Thalakos Lowlands http://magiccards.info/br/en/88.html
    {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool.
    {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Thalakos Lowlands doesn't untap during your next untap step.

Creatures:
Enchantments:
Artifacts:
Planeswalkers:

GRAVEYARD:

EXILED:
Draft Post created using v 11.6

This message was last edited by admin, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 14:35, Mon 24 June 2019.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2535 posts
Just an average guy :)
Sat 9 Jun 2018
at 15:07
  • msg #132

Re: Another small update

How about putting in a personal CSS page?

Something like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:User_style

That'd let us make it as wide as we want, we can use flexbox and apply particular orders to everything, etc.

Basically a user-writeable Scratchpad for the site, and the site loads that CSS after site CSS so that our page will overwrite whatever the site says. With a class added to every element then those of us who want wide text windows can have it and more. :D
LordXenophon
member, 14 posts
Mon 30 Jul 2018
at 14:10
  • msg #133

RPoL Design Update

So far, I've found this site easy to load on my barely-functional home connection. That is rare and special. Please don't ruin it by adding java scripts, fancy buttons and other things that would just slow the site down for no reason.

On the other hand, I'm starting to appreciate why some people complain about the layout. The links could be more intuitively arranged and the idea of sidebar links doesn't sound unreasonable. Links would be easier to separate visually when arranged vertically, than when arranged in-line.

I would like to suggest two additional things, that I haven't seen discussed yet.

First, the ability to change our votes in the rPoll. Having acquired an opinion, I no longer wish to abstain.

Second, I'd like to request that you take a second look at the formatting options for posts, in particular the spoiler method.

On some other roleplay sites, we can use [spoiler=This is what I want the button to say] to name a toggle button for the spoiler text. It doesn't display instructions for reading the spoiler and the spoiled text does not waste vertical space, but is instead completely hidden until revealed.

In addition to not wasting vertical space, this method is useful for decluttering the post of things that are not spoilers, but which not everybody will want to read. For example, you could put your die rolls in it and name the button "die rolls," or you could state only the results of a calculated application of some game rule, then put the math in a "the math" spoiler button.

I know this is only important for those of us who like to keep our posts free of mundane clutter, but for those of us who do, it can be VERY important. The current spoiler method just doesn't do any of this.

There are also other things that could be useful in the post editor, but whatever else you think of to add will probably be cool.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:14, Mon 30 July 2018.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1396 posts
Mon 30 Jul 2018
at 23:12
  • msg #134

RPoL Design Update

The spoiler thing came up before, and if I recall correctly, the current method used is done to avoid using scripts and things that older browsers and slow connections don't like.

As for the new site, google actively (or will in the future) prevents non-responsive sites from showing up on the first page of search results, thus, jase needs a responsive site in order for new people to find rpol (cause seriously, how many people look through multiple pages of search results?).

Though personally, while not perfect, I have not seen another site that even challanges rpol for my favorite site design, speaking of the old rpol not the new one.
LordXenophon
member, 16 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 01:52
  • msg #135

RPoL Design Update

Well, I'm using IE7 and I have about the slowest connection that will even work any more, so anything that bad would hit me first and hardest.

But in the NationStates forums, I can load a page full of those spoiler tags, with all of them working just fine, just as fast as I load pages on RPoL. If it's a script, it's a small and well written one. I think it's really just a standard BB code they have. But whatever it is, I'm reasonably sure it could be used here, without slowing me down.

Hotmail, on the other hand, won't even load any more. If I'm lucky, I get a page of red x's. Most of the time, I get a script error or the "cannot display this page" screen, after up to 20 minutes of waiting. Whatever it is that they did in their last redesign, I would hold them up as an example of what I want RPoL NOT to do during this redesign.
TookyG
member, 90 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 02:27
  • msg #136

RPoL Design Update

In reply to LordXenophon (msg # 135):

Windows XP?  I think the Maxthon browser still has XP support.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1398 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 03:55
  • msg #137

RPoL Design Update

IE7 is more modern than some people. Some folks might even still be stuck with only pure html webpages.

Also, the connection is just one piece. The new rpol site server isn't noticeably slower for creating and sending a webpage than for the old website, but my computer certainly notices.

My phone is even worse. It can play the android Baldur's gate II, yet it can't handle even google docs pages that has become the standard way of sharing maps on other maps on other sites.
jaws78
member, 16 posts
To err Is human ...
... to role play divine.
Mon 3 Sep 2018
at 08:49
  • msg #138

RPoL Design Update

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 137):

After server move, responsive site, new post Icon is broken.
Skald
moderator, 828 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 30 Sep 2018
at 04:43
  • msg #139

RPoL Design Update

Looks like the user sign up date that was relatively recently added is no longer showing on the user profile on the responsive site.  :<
Utsukushi
member, 1460 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Sun 30 Sep 2018
at 05:04
  • msg #140

RPoL Design Update

That's because the even newer "Make BBR Look Like A Liar" mod I proposed is working perfectly!

...Hm?  That's not it?  My proposal is still in the fireplace, and in fact, on fire?  Oh.  Probably shouldn't have mentioned it, then.  You don't suppose he reads this forum, do you?
Skald
moderator, 829 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 1 Oct 2018
at 14:04
  • msg #141

RPoL Design Update

Aannd ... the user sign up date does still appear to be on the test version on the Beta site - might have just been wishful thinking that it'd been released in the Responsive version proper.  :>
jase
admin, 3618 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 13 Jun 2019
at 12:24

RPoL Design Update

Have done a few updates to the responsive site.

While the responsive site may be aesthetically challenging everything should work, at this stage I am avoiding changing anything besides the actual HTML output.. though no guarantee I'll get that right.

Biggest change is that the die roller has been updated to responsive.  Not sure why I picked that one but when I checked CodePen it seems that is what I was messing with some time ago, so I finished it off.

For those who do persevere with the responsive site, or at least use it intermittently, please let me know what you'd like updated next (anything but the GM menu, I think that'll be very last), I'll aim to do whatever's bothering you the most.

Signup date is on the responsive page, btw.
jase
admin, 3621 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 15 Jun 2019
at 15:42

RPoL Design Update

Updated a few more pieces of the responsive site.  rMail and private thread lists should be laid out little better and various post links/buttons should appear at the bottom of the page where appropriate (annoying scrolling to the bottom and then to go back to the top to reply).

Previewing a message should also be better.

Just a bunch of aesthetic and usability improvements today (usual disclaimer, hopefully nothing broke!).  Went to do the rMail thread list only to realise I'd already done it (yay) so went to the private list... also done (double yay!).  Gotta figure which page to tackle next!

Edit:  CSS has been updated, Chrome cached the darn thing even though I'd updated it (and it knew it too!).  Might have to force refresh to see the changes.  Biggest issue I saw was the missing "Post a Reply" button at the bottom of a thread.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:44, Sat 15 June 2019.
LonePaladin
member, 828 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Sun 16 Jun 2019
at 04:12
  • msg #144

RPoL Design Update

Any reason why the color scheme won't change? I've been using Dark Purple for so long my brain simply associates that color pattern with the site, so the plain look of the responsive site just doesn't look right to me.
jase
admin, 3622 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 16 Jun 2019
at 04:37

RPoL Design Update

Single theme at the moment, all themes will have to be redone once the responsive site is no longer a moving target.
jase
admin, 3624 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 23 Jun 2019
at 14:18

RPoL Design Update

In lieu of feedback of any sort I've updated the "white" (default) theme to support the creation of custom themes.  You can now go into your preferences and create a theme for the responsive site.  The old site will still have your current settings if you want to use that as a basis.

((As an aside this involved changing the way the entire theme was calculated, I no longer use a separate template file but use the default css file as the template which means any changes I make to that are automatically applied to any themes based upon it.  Additionally all custom themes will be identical in structure to the master file which means that if people reckon they've created the perfect theme it can be suggested that it's cloned to become one of our available options!))

Note that the list of colours is currently very long, there's a stack of other styles now and also the css hasn't been optimised as of yet (two (or more) settings that should have the same colour might be listed separately).  I also think there's a few colours defined outside of the theme which will need cleaning up/moving over.

The new css also has gradients, shading and opaque settings which complicate things even more, but I think the layout makes it pretty simple except for the fact that it's just a much longer list.

I've also fixed a bunch of other aesthetic things while I was going about it (and, to harp on the point, having no other feedback to go on).  CSS updates should be automatically loaded but if in doubt force a refresh on your browser.
nauthiz
supporter, 603 posts
Mon 24 Jun 2019
at 05:39
  • msg #147

RPoL Design Update

Since June 13th I've started using the responsive site exclusively when interacting with RPoL on my phone.  Below are some notes I've kept regarding the user experience.

All experiences were had on a device running Android 7.0 (Nougat) and using Chrome 75.0.3770.101.  Any "bugs" or other unexpected behaviors were verified on the same device in Firefox 67.0.3.

---

The Main Menu drop down does not work as a user probably might expect, especially based on a touch screen friendly design.  Based on the initial button interaction a user will likely expect that touching the blank space on the list to the right of the words will trigger the expected behavior, it does not.  A user must press each individual word like an old fashioned hyperlink.  This issue is further compounded by the other navigation drop downs which are fully responsive across the entire horizontal width of the drop down menus

---

On the compose messages screen the "private to" checkboxes extend "off screen" when composing a message.  A user can access then by scrolling the screen right if they realize that's an option

---

The position and size of the remove game minus signs make them very difficult to interact with due to their small size and placement against the right side of the website margin.  While this may be a specific decision to prevent accidental interaction, even when zooming in to intentionally use them the right side justification makes them very difficult to use since they remain on the right edge of a device's screen.  Adding some space between them and the right border of the site, even just an amount equal to the width of the button itself, would help this issue.

---

Game map functionality doesn't seem to be working correctly in all cases.  I have two games which do not have a "main game map" but instead have a map assigned to a specific group.  Attempting to view that map via the "select another map to view" menu does not work correctly.

In both cases it causes the site to send you to the "RPoL Announcements" forum, as indicated by the "Welcome to" text beneath the RPoL logo, and gives you an error.

quote:
This is not a game

"RPoL Announcements" is not a game.

Game information is (logically enough) only available for games.


I do not have any games that actually do have a "main game map" uploaded so I was unable to test whether that altered this particular issue or not.

---

Nomenclature.  On the old site the page you see when you're logged in and visit RPoL is called the "main menu" according to all the site's navigation links.  On the responsive site the drop down navigation list is labeled main menu and now "home" is used for that same page.  However there's still other navigation options, like the links at the bottom of pages, which are labeled "main" when they should probably be labeled "Home" to follow the naming structure of the responsive site.

---

The dice roller doesn't work.  Changing dice options, inputting manual rolls, all seem to be behaving normally.  However no amount of touching or tapping the "Roll the Dice" button actually triggers the expected page behavior and generates a dice roll.
jase
admin, 3625 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 24 Jun 2019
at 12:43

RPoL Design Update

Wow, awesome thanks nauthiz.

Main menu drop down - Had never even noticed!  Was ready for a battle to get this to work but it was a simple "display: block" for the hyperlink, so... fixed.

Private to list - Had been ignoring that one.  Should be better now.  Colouring/spacing needs tweaking, but so does most everything!

Game removal minus sign - Not sure how that one needs to be fixed, have been ignoring it.  Will ponder and procrastinate in the hope someone else will come up with a solution.  (c;

Maps - Fixed thanks.  Was a wider problem so glad you spotted that one.

Main Menu vs Home - Haven't decided what's the best way to go.  Home is more commonly used, main menu is what we've used for ages.  Can standardise on either (or something else entirely).
nauthiz
supporter, 604 posts
Mon 24 Jun 2019
at 19:12
  • msg #149

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Game removal minus sign - Not sure how that one needs to be fixed, have been ignoring it.  Will ponder and procrastinate in the hope someone else will come up with a solution.  (c;


If this was a document I'd assume that minus sign image was "aligned right" and just needed someone to put the cursor to the right of it and press the space key a few times give it some white space between itself and the right margin, which would solve the issue.

If that's actually harder to do because of web coding reasons, since the minus sign is just a 7x7 image, if you added 7 or 14 pixels of transparency to the right side of it, it should make the graphic big enough to more easily interact with without changing its appearance and (presumably) not having to actually change anything but the image file itself.
MalaeDezeld
member, 111 posts
Mon 24 Jun 2019
at 19:47
  • msg #150

Re: RPoL Design Update

Maybe something in the game menu instead? But not nearby the "Mark all as Read".
jase
admin, 3626 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 25 Jun 2019
at 00:51

Re: RPoL Design Update

I was wondering whether the whole process of automatically adding games to the list needed to be revised.  Replace it with a notification at the top of the game asking if they want to add it to their watch list (which could possibly have a few options as people have asked of ways of separating different games on the main menu).

Depends whether it's more annoying to have to remove games from your list when just browsing around or it'd end up being more annoying to constantly have to add games to your watch list.

As for the minus sign -- adding white space to the actual would work but will have issues as it's then a white image that can cause wrap issues.  Actually, as the blank area would be part of the image then it'd also be part of the hyperlink, so more potential for miss-clicking.  It'd also be best if they were all lined up like on the current site.

I'd actually thought about moving it to the user preferences screen.  Add a link on the main menu (under the "main menu" menu section) to manage the games.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1573 posts
Tue 25 Jun 2019
at 02:50
  • msg #152

Re: RPoL Design Update

On adding vs removing games,

I find removing games from a sticky list is many times better. I can't tell you how often I forget to "subscribe" to a thread before navigating away and then can't find the thread again. Removing from a sticky list doesn't have that problem.

That said, I don't find the issue nearly as big a problem on rpol as on other sites. In fact, rpol is the only site I've been on where I need to remove more than I wanted to add.
jase
admin, 3627 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 25 Jun 2019
at 03:00

Re: RPoL Design Update

I think having to remember to remove is better than having to remember to add.  No real issue if you forget to remove (and it's pretty hard to).  Opposite when you have to add.

Unless others disagree then it's just a case of do we need a removal link on the main menu along with the clutter it brings or can we move it to another page?
nauthiz
supporter, 605 posts
Tue 25 Jun 2019
at 06:58
  • msg #154

Re: RPoL Design Update

I think the functionality as is, is the best way to go.  It's also more intuitive to teach a new user how to remove games, than how to add them.

Also, just to illustrate the concept.  I don't think the button needs to be enlarged significantly.

I think something like this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xgw8.../minus_wide.gif?dl=0

would be more than sufficient to make it more accessible on a smaller touch interface, like a smartphone, without making it so huge people might accidentally remove a game they don't mean to while just trying to scroll the page.
jase
admin, 3628 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 25 Jun 2019
at 09:18

Re: RPoL Design Update

At a glance having a wide image will fix some stuff but I think it'll end up oddly aligned.  Also as mentioned the whole image would be the hyperlink which will mean blank area will be a clickable area, plus it'll mean wrapping has to compensate for the entire length.

I think we can do the same with image alignment, padding and margin.
Skald
moderator, 849 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 29 Jun 2019
at 04:38

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'd like to see the functionality moved to the preference screen - its more intuitive to keep all that kinda stuff in the one place.  But definitely automatically add and manually remove.

Looking at the responsive site on a desktop, there's a nice empty third of the screen to the right where that could sit - I'm imagining a scrollable list of games, with a single checkbox next to each - if checked it shows on the main screen, if not checked it doesn't.
jase
admin, 3629 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 30 Jun 2019
at 07:59

Re: RPoL Design Update

It'll still be there under the user preferences but if we can keep it on the main menu then I guess why not.  I've tweaked the plus/minus symbol on the main menu, should flow nicely now.  Image probably still needs to be a little larger, but not much.  I generally have to enlarge the screen to be able to click the minus but I think that's mostly a good thing.

Bunch of other things I've messed with, so much I've generally forgotten.

The one obvious change is I've made the colouring a little less like candy for the header/footer/bars.  Will let that sit for a while and see how it goes.
nauthiz
subscriber, 606 posts
Sun 30 Jun 2019
at 08:35
  • msg #158

Re: RPoL Design Update

The symbol is way easier to actually interact with now on a mobile device.  Still have to zoom in, which I think is a good feature rather than a bug, but it's not right up against the side bezel now, so it's much easier to use it if you need it.
jase
admin, 3630 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 2 Jul 2019
at 13:52

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've increased the max site width by a bit under 10% (1,100 increased to 1,200 pixels).  Seems good for reading threads but a little wide in other areas (this compose screen for one).  As with the new colours I'll see how it sits after a bit more use.

I've also updated the custom theme page so you can now set a width between 1,000 and 2,000 pixels.
jase
admin, 3631 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 3 Jul 2019
at 14:57

Re: RPoL Design Update

Have added "lightboxes" to images in game threads.  That is, if you click on an image it'll popup a full screen version of it (if it's large enough).

Unavoidably requires javascript.  If you don't have it (enabled) then it'll just open up the image instead.

If a single message has multiple images then there'll be next and back icons (> and <) to navigate through them.  Left/right arrow also does the trick.

Also did a tweak to the front GM menu.  Needs to be prettified (is that really a word?!) but should otherwise not be so horrible as it was.

A bit aimless with what I'm fixing/tweaking/making responsive at the moment, feedback is always welcome (and sometimes quite necessary!!).
nauthiz
subscriber, 607 posts
Wed 3 Jul 2019
at 17:46
  • msg #161

Re: RPoL Design Update

Bug Report: I RTJ'd a game.  The GM replied to my RTJ but didn't add me to the game yet.  From the responsive site I have no way of accessing my private messages for that game.

The Game Menu that normally would have the link to PMs has the following options

-Game Menu
-Request Access
-Mark all as Read
-Request Access
-Die Roller
-Game Map
-The Cast

Both of the "Request Access" entries take me to the initial RTJ page where I can create a new RTJ message.

---
On the Character Details page, when you add a portrait to a character, the formatting breaks slightly with the "View and Edit Description" text now overlapping the border line that extends from the character portrait area.

No Portrait
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pc42...NO_Portrait.jpg?dl=0

With Portrait
https://www.dropbox.com/s/67gk..._W_Portrait.jpg?dl=0
jase
admin, 3632 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 4 Jul 2019
at 05:59

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks.  PM link should now be there if you've sent a request (and the banner at the top will also go).  I've tried not to change any of the underlying logic but when there's some big changes it can creep in.

Have removed all those multicoloured borders on the character profile screen, that was just for me lining things up.  Screen still needs a bit of tweaking but the red, green and blue should be gone!
nauthiz
subscriber, 608 posts
Thu 4 Jul 2019
at 10:14
  • msg #163

Re: RPoL Design Update

Tested, and looks good on both issues.

However there's still two entries for "Request Access" on the game menu.
jase
admin, 3633 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 4 Jul 2019
at 12:08

Re: RPoL Design Update

Whoops, missed that bit of your message.  Should only have one now (before you RTJ) and none after (replaced with "Contact the GM").

Also removed a bunch of thread management links that were there for everyone, not just GMs.  Didn't work if you clicked on them, but shouldn't have been there to begin with.
seraphmoon
member, 66 posts
I've Been Touched By
His Noodly Appendage
Thu 4 Jul 2019
at 22:15
  • msg #165

Re: RPoL Design Update

On the responsive site, “Private Messages” doesn’t show up in the This Game menu on the map, cast, or introduction pages. Using iOS; can screenshot if necessary.

ETA: Also on iOS, the post button says "Post Mesage" :)

ETA2: On the Private Messages screen under Thread Details, entires are listed as "private thread by with X replies." Again, on iOS.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:42, Thu 04 July 2019.
jase
admin, 3634 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 03:10

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thank you!  Can you elaborate on when you're not seeing the "Private Messages" links?  I can see a bit of inconsistency between some of the screens (which I'll fix) but I'm seeing the PM link.

Is it for a game you're a GM?  Player?  Lurker?  Have a RTJ submitted or just a plain old visitor?
seraphmoon
member, 68 posts
I've Been Touched By
His Noodly Appendage
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 21:56
  • msg #167

Re: RPoL Design Update

Had to go back and check. :)

On games I'm a player or GM of, it shows up on all screens. On games I'm not a member of, it vanishes. On the old site, it also vanishes in those games but sticks around on the bottom bar. It doesn't seem to matter whether I've got an active RTJ or not, but the one I am RTJ'd to still shows "Request Access" on the Map, Cast, and Intro pages instead of changing to "Contact the GM." Only just noticed that part. :) I'm not a lurker in any games, and there is no difference between desktop and mobile, nor is there a difference between desktop Chrome and Safari.

I know I'm not the most articulate of persons, so if screenshots would help let me know.
jase
admin, 3635 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 6 Jul 2019
at 10:01
  • msg #168

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've fiddled with the layout of those menu options.  You should see "Request Access" if you've never sent a PM, "Contact the GM" if you're a lurker and lastly "Private Messages" if you've ever sent a PM (or play in the game, which generally will require you to send at least one PM!).

They all should now be higher up on the list, think they were a bit low before.
jase
admin, 3636 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 9 Jul 2019
at 02:03
  • msg #169

Re: RPoL Design Update

Updated a bunch of tables with responsive-friendly div's yesterday and tweaked a whole stack more other layout "things".  Lack of complaints leads me to believe I didn't break anything majorly, which is always nice!  Got some more to do (ones I avoided as they were a little more complicated) which I'll get onto next unless (kicks the dead horse) there's any other feedback about major usability issues.

Edit:  Also fixed the autosuggest list for the game systems when searching for game (on the main menu), creating a game, searching Wanted - Players and editing your game details.  Moved from a javascript system to HTML5.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:54, Tue 09 July 2019.
nauthiz
subscriber, 609 posts
Wed 10 Jul 2019
at 21:45
  • msg #170

Re: RPoL Design Update

I assume this issue will be resolved if/when the responsive version of the site becomes the only version.

Currently however the site doesn't recognize the r.rpol.net domain when it comes to auto generating links in messages from URLs.
jase
admin, 3637 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 13 Jul 2019
at 03:55
  • msg #171

Re: RPoL Design Update

Could be due to the https.  Made a small tweak, let me know if it makes any difference.

Search results on the main menu should also be a lot better now.  Removed the old tables and created the same format as the normal game listing (with additional details as it's a search).
Imladir
member, 1 post
Sat 13 Jul 2019
at 08:18
  • msg #172

Re: RPoL Design Update

Two problems on character sheets:
- On small screens (phones & tablets), the background / page isn't enlarged when the text doesn't fit
- The display of lists (maybe only consecutive or nested lists?) is seriously messed up: https://i.imgur.com/jD8bM9y.png
Regarding the list, the problem seems to be in the generated html (too many ul tags opened, not enough closed).
This message was last edited by the user at 08:37, Sat 13 July 2019.
nauthiz
subscriber, 611 posts
Sat 13 Jul 2019
at 08:37
  • msg #173

Re: RPoL Design Update

<testing>

/help/?t=faqs&page=rubbcode  <-rpol.net

RPoL faqs (rubbcode)  <-r.rpol.net

Is it the "www"?

https://www.imgur.com

https://imgur.com/

nope!
Skald
moderator, 851 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 13 Jul 2019
at 13:25

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm also seeing a problem with characters sheet using easy tables and embedded list - to an innocent bystander it looks like it's having issues with the fourth and subsequent \n line breaks inside a list item tag [*] ... actually now I compare that with the old site, I notice that responsive doesn't seem to be inserting the dot point for the list items either.
horus
member, 805 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sun 14 Jul 2019
at 00:43
  • msg #175

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm noticing that Easy Tables tend not to render their box-lines.  The write-up I did a while back on this subject will have to be re-written almost entirely due to formatting differences between responsive and original sites.

HTML-based or HTML-wrapped tables seem to render okay, but bare Easy Tables and Grids do not render their line that I can see.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:47, Sun 14 July 2019.
jase
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Sun 14 Jul 2019
at 02:17

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for all the feedback, it's appreciated.  Some of it is stuff I just haven't gotten to yet so I'm not surprised, but either way it gives me something to concentrate on and fix so thanks.

See if character sheets are better now.  It was applying the wrong overall style (there and probably a few other places).

The whole flow on that page for small devices isn't right, will have to tweak that.  Also note that when getting really narrow that character sheets might force a sideways scroll on the entire page.  I'll get a fix for that in too.

r.rpol.net isn't linking because of the short "r.".  Will see if I can tweak that but want to get a much better link detection in place so will take a while to fiddle.

Easy tables/grids I haven't paid any attention to yet so will have to give some love to them.
Skald
moderator, 852 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 15 Jul 2019
at 05:13
  • msg #177

Re: RPoL Design Update

That fixed it, thank ye kindly. On respsonsive site the character sheet text inside easy table is now showing/flowing correctly, and dot points are back in play.   :>

While looking around I found another character's sheet (in one of my games) which is very wide which is overlapping with the the right hand sidebar menu, but I'm not sure what can be done about that as I don't think we can call that a coding problem - either live with it or set a maximum character sheet width ?
jase
admin, 3639 posts
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Mon 15 Jul 2019
at 09:38

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'll be popping in a horizontal scrollbar for when it's really wide.  Does it here already I think, if a message inside a thread is too large (or a table within a message) then it'll make that scroll rather than mess the entire page.

I think that's what I did anyway.  (c;

I'm current changing a bit with the flow, getting rid of left floats and replacing them with inline blocks (for those in the know) which improves some of the layout and the logic behind it.  I would use "flexbox" but 95% browser support is too low and I can do it with inline blocks and some floats fine, it's just easier with flexbox.

That's a long winded way of saying I'm adjusting a bit of stuff so have taken a small step backward, once I get that sorted then I can proceed with other fixes.
horus
member, 809 posts
Wayfarer of the
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Tue 16 Jul 2019
at 07:12
  • msg #179

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Easy tables/grids I haven't paid any attention to yet so will have to give some love to them.


Please let us know when to check again... I checked just now and bare Easy Tables and Grids are still not rendering lines.  I figure you may not have gotten to this yet, or my browser (a Chrome derivative) is to blame.

Thanks,
D
Imladir
member, 2 posts
Tue 16 Jul 2019
at 07:25
  • msg #180

Re: RPoL Design Update

It's just borders. And it's much better to not have borders by default, that way it's possible to align things in a page without it being obvious it's a table. There's probably an option somewhere to define the border style.
horus
member, 810 posts
Wayfarer of the
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Tue 16 Jul 2019
at 15:28
  • msg #181

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Imladir (msg # 180):

Not here to argue, but:

They may be "just borders", but those borders are part and parcel of how Easy Tables and (especially) Easy Grids are supposed to work.  I know of no way to turn off the borders except using the responsive site, and I'm pretty sure that's not by design, hence my interest, and my reports.

There are numerous character sheets and other documents in Heaven - Gaming Resources that depend on this functionality.
Imladir
member, 3 posts
Tue 16 Jul 2019
at 15:38
  • msg #182

Re: RPoL Design Update

But it's not the HTML default. And the default should be to have nothing, but allow the addition of stuff. Like by default, your text is just plain regular text. But if you want, you can bold it, color it, enlarge it, etc.

It's the same for a table: by default, it should only put stuff in cells. Everything at the top of the cell, with the text left aligned, the cells just as big as their content, etc. But if you want, you can center things, resize the cells, have some span multiple columns or rows...or have borders. Which is exactly the case for the tables on wikis for examples.

The fact that on the main site you have borders by default is the problem, not the other way around. It may come from the fact that it's not easy to define what the border is supposed to be, so a choice had to be made between border or no border. And maybe it's a choice that will have to be made again. And there are arguments to go both ways.
horus
member, 811 posts
Wayfarer of the
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Tue 16 Jul 2019
at 15:59
  • msg #183

Re: RPoL Design Update

Imladir:
But it's not the HTML default. And the default should be to have nothing, but allow the addition of stuff. Like by default, your text is just plain regular text. But if you want, you can bold it, color it, enlarge it, etc.


HTML-based tables should work the way they always have.  Easy Tables and Grids are a technology unique to RPoL.  Two different things.

quote:
It's the same for a table: by default, it should only put stuff in cells. ...


Not really.  The whole point of Easy Tables was to make it easier to make tables without having to learn HTML.  As I said before, anything you can do in HTML elsewhere you should still be able to do here.

The standard in use, by the way, is XHTML 1.0.

quote:
The fact that on the main site you have borders by default is the problem, not the other way around. ...


I would respectfully submit the above assertion to jase for evaluation.  We disagree.
jase
admin, 3640 posts
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Wed 17 Jul 2019
at 05:10

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok so a few updates which I've rushed out, so usual disclaimers...  Auto link to r.rpol.net is still broken, neglecting that one for now.

Character sheets should now scroll rather than force the content wide.  Individual elements within the sheet or the entire sheet might have a scrollbar left/right depending on the element.

Easy tables and grids should also now side-scroll in messages and grids shouldn't reduce their width to try and fit in with the content

Speaking of, I appreciate the enthusiasm around easy tables and grids.  The simple fact of the situation is that the main website currently renders borders and I'm not about to change how they work.  I can't make such a wide retroactive change and exclaim "surprise, all your old tables no longer have borders!".

With that in mind you should now find your easy things now have borders.
Imladir
member, 4 posts
Wed 17 Jul 2019
at 05:15
  • msg #185

Re: RPoL Design Update

Is there a way to set borders width to zero?
horus
member, 813 posts
Wayfarer of the
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Wed 17 Jul 2019
at 06:31
  • msg #186

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 184):

Thank you, jase.  Is there a trick to getting a new color scheme to render in the responsive site?  I've changed mine a number of times (I prefer a dark red scheme for use at night), but I seem to be stuck with the same old default pale blue set.

(Flashpeak Slimjet Version 23.0.9.0 (based on Chromium 74.0.3729.108) (Official Build) (64-bit) under PCLinuxOS 2019.02...)
jase
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Wed 17 Jul 2019
at 09:32

Re: RPoL Design Update

Easy tables/grids always have borders, however you can use normal full <table border="0"><tr><td>blah</td></tr></table> to not have them however.  Border can be 0, 2 or 3 (1 is the default).

I think we've previously discussed schemes in this thread, they aren't working as I don't want to constantly update 16 themes.  It's all fluid at the moment so I'm just sticking with the one theme.  You can however create your own custom theme, just be aware that it might quickly get outdated (but I'm ok with that as now you have to edit it rather than me! :)
horus
member, 814 posts
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Wed 17 Jul 2019
at 17:21
  • msg #188

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Easy tables/grids always have borders, however you can use normal full <table border="0"><tr><td>blah</td></tr></table> to not have them however.  Border can be 0, 2 or 3 (1 is the default).

I think we've previously discussed schemes in this thread, they aren't working as I don't want to constantly update 16 themes.  It's all fluid at the moment so I'm just sticking with the one theme.  You can however create your own custom theme, just be aware that it might quickly get outdated (but I'm ok with that as now you have to edit it rather than me! :)


Thanks.

Just to be clear, <table border="0"><tr><td>blah</td></tr></table> means to wrap the Easy Table/Grid content with the table border tags to control display width of border lines, as in:

<table border="3">
<tr>
<td>
| Some quick Easy Table Content here |
|
</td>
</tr>
</table>

would yield:


Some quick Easy Table Content here


and replacing the "3" in the above with "0" would not draw border lines at all.  Neat!  I'll add this to my articles.
DaCuseFrog
member, 62 posts
SW Florida
Thu 18 Jul 2019
at 03:07
  • msg #189

Re: RPoL Design Update

I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but the headers on tables are not auto shading like on the main site.  Is that working normally?

Code
Table


Easy
Table

horus
member, 816 posts
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Thu 18 Jul 2019
at 06:02
  • msg #190

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to DaCuseFrog (msg # 189):

I'm going to venture a guess here:  perhaps this is theme-related?  The background for headers chooses the color for header backgrounds from the "header background" attribute of the theme in use.

We know, from what jase told us, that themes, per se, don't yet work on the responsive site.  This problem may fix itself given time?
jase
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Thu 18 Jul 2019
at 08:21

Re: RPoL Design Update

Correct!  Have a cookie.
nauthiz
subscriber, 613 posts
Thu 18 Jul 2019
at 22:58
  • msg #192

Re: RPoL Design Update

Unsure if it falls under "thing that will work once element X is fixed" or not, but currently the RTJ blurbs/instructions that appear on a game's RTJ page are allowed to freely sprawl horizontally rather than being constrained within the space the rest of the page's elements stick to or be given a scroll bar.
jase
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Sat 20 Jul 2019
at 13:37

Re: RPoL Design Update

No that's definitely something that needs to be fixed ahead of time... and I hopefully just did.

I've deployed a rather large update to the layout for the informational boxes and tables, a lot have now been converted to the newer format (but not everything at this stage).  You should notice that most of the informational boxes now take up the available page width but no more.  This may result in some being wider than the text itself dictates, which I can worry about as a minor improvement going forward.

There were about 100 old tables that have been converted to divs so I've undoubtedly messed up a few so please do let me know if anything's wrong.  I did some other tweaks/changes along the way and though it was good stuff when I did it, however I don't have a clue what it was anymore!  (c;

I also made all the textarea (i.e. the area you use when submitting a message) as wide as the screen can cope.

Lastly, and fairly importantly, I've changed the responsive points.  Previously as the viewport width shrunk the content would rewrap and then if it went even narrower the menu would collapse, however now it's the other way around (and the way it should have been all alone).  Content has the priority so the first thing to give way is the menu and then the content will wrap.

If you want to see what I'm on about then go to the main menu or game menu and start reducing the browser width.  First the content will squeeze up a bit and once it starts to get a bit too cramped the menu will collapse up to the top.  Keep on going then the rows will change and you'll have the game/thread information over two lines rather than one.

Enjoy (I hope!).
Skald
moderator, 853 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 21 Jul 2019
at 04:44
  • msg #194

Re: RPoL Design Update

Actcherly, I do like the main/game menu collapsing to icons in the header.  Very nice.  So much so that it'd be good to have a "always show menus as icons" option under user preferences so they always did that.  When we have the leisure to add features, and the worries of conversion are behind us, of course.

Which reminds me - is setting up the fixed header still on the to do list ?  I think there was some suggestion that it might not be possible in the responsive format, but disabling fixed headers is still there as a user preference, so I live in hope.  ;>

The collapsed menus would work better with a fixed header ... currently there's a bit of scrolling required to find a menu (ie to move screen back to top or bottom as the case may be), but with a fixed header and menu icons they'd always be just be one click away.
jase
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Sun 21 Jul 2019
at 04:54

Re: RPoL Design Update

Fixed header needs to be removed from the options actually... possibly something that could be look at later along with the hide-the-menus option.  Maybe.  I'll tighten up the user preferences now actually, all the colour schemes also give people the wrong impression (I'll add some more back later but probably not as many!).

I realise the menus do get left behind with all the scrolling which is why there's a "top" link (as well as main and game links).  If there's other links that would be good in the footer then that's exactly what this thread is for!
Skald
moderator, 854 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 21 Jul 2019
at 05:27
  • msg #196

Re: RPoL Design Update

I shall continue to live in hope, but not hold my breath then.  <grins>

I see the reasoning that I'm most likely down at the bottom of the thread, having read all the new posts and then I hit post reply ... and on the reply screen the menus are at the top with the compose message box, so I can easily open up say character sheet, game map and dice roller in separate tabs, so all the functionality is there.

On the old site I open everything I'm going to need including the post reply screen from the game thread and then switch to whichever open window I need to go to first.

So responsive layout is just a different way of working for me that'll take some getting used to.  :>

Main menu, game menu, top, post reply ... that probably covers most things.  Unless we have collapsed menu icons in both header AND footer, which would give us everything at both ends of the page !  But that might be greedy.  ;>
jase
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Tue 23 Jul 2019
at 13:31

Re: RPoL Design Update

I contemplated having the side menu try to stick in place but as it could sometimes be too long for the screen height I thought perhaps that would be a bad idea!  Might see if it's possible (probably with a bit of javascript) at a later stage.  For now you'll probably need to change your habits to clicking reply at the bottom and then opening up all the different pages from the compose screen.

That kind of stuff I'd probably wait until after the responsive site is finished in its first form.  Then all the outstanding feature requests before looking at any layout tweaks.

Have tweaked a more more things.  Input boxes should now use the site's font besides the "textarea" inputs (what I be using now) as that's normally better off with a fixed-width font.  Should just make the prompts for subject, bios, character name, dice roll information etc etc just a little nicer.  Slightly larger font too and increased the padding so it's not so squished.

Also changed the game search on the main menu from an old table to a div/responsive friendly layout.  Mostly the same look though as I didn't think it needed much tweaking otherwise.

As (well, rather if) I get feedback on areas that need fixing I'll concentrate on them otherwise I'm now at the stage where I'm just working my way through the site to check each screen and fix them as I go.  Main menu is obviously the first and then the signup/logon pages, create a game, game itself, viewing a thread and so on.
Imladir
member, 6 posts
Sun 28 Jul 2019
at 17:08
  • msg #198

Re: RPoL Design Update

Portrait selection with keyword search doesn't work unless something is entered in the free text area.
jase
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Fri 2 Aug 2019
at 15:09

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks.  Got carried away with the "required" tag in HTML5!  (c;
nauthiz
subscriber, 615 posts
Mon 5 Aug 2019
at 09:28
  • msg #200

Re: RPoL Design Update

So, my luck finally ran out and I accidentally broke my phone.  I figure it was about time since my streak has been going since I got my first nokia brick back in the day, which doesn't really count as they were nigh indestructible anyway.

But that has meant an opportunity to find new bugs and other issues.

I'm now using a device running Android 9.0 (Pie) and it's currently using Chrome 75.0.3770.143.  I also tested this particular issue in Firefox 68.0.

Bug Report: Chrome for Android doesn't play quite right with the "post message" screen.

When you first enter the page everything is fine.  Then when you press in the text box and begin entering text, the box expands slightly in size and covers most of the "preview/delay post" and "post message" buttons.

As seen here: https://i.imgur.com/moyz7v4.jpg

You can type normally.  The buttons themselves still work, if you press the "preview" button either the small bit that's still showing or the area of the text entry box where the button is, it will work as intended.  It does not work correctly if you have typed enough that the text entry area that covers the button now has text in it.  In that case pressing the screen just puts the cursor where you pressed, you must instead press the small bit of button poking out the bottom to make it work.

Once you have reached the "preview" screen the text box behaves normally, and the buttons are fully accessible.  Entering/deleting/etc text in the box does not seem to trigger the issue, nor does subsequent presses of the "preview" button.

When I tried to replicate this issue in Firefox I could not.  Of the two browsers only Chrome seems to have this issue.


I was running an old Windows Mobile 10 handset for the past few weeks in the interim, so I don't know if it's strictly a software/browser issue or something due to one of the updates to the site made in that time period.
Imladir
member, 7 posts
Mon 5 Aug 2019
at 09:40
  • msg #201

Re: RPoL Design Update

Something a bit annoying is the inconsistency in the "This Game" menu. For example:
- it's impossible to directly access private messages from The Cast menu,
- on the Cast page the link for The Cast disappeared, but on the Character Details page, the link for that page is still there.
jase
admin, 3653 posts
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Mon 5 Aug 2019
at 14:17

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks nauthiz.  Certainly doesn't happen in my (exact same) version of Chrome on my phone.  Is it when you click in the message area or after you type the first character?

Menus certainly need a little tweaking, Imladir.  Will see if I can do a little more.
Imladir
member, 8 posts
Mon 5 Aug 2019
at 14:19
  • msg #203

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks.

Nothing urgent there obviously.
nauthiz
subscriber, 616 posts
Mon 5 Aug 2019
at 18:43
  • msg #204

Re: RPoL Design Update

When I type in the first character.  Up until then it's fine.  Additionally if I delete all the text that has been entered, the text entry box returns to its normal size/position.
jase
admin, 3656 posts
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Thu 8 Aug 2019
at 05:42

Re: RPoL Design Update

Can't make sense of the textarea resizing.  There is the alert to remind you if you cancel away from a composed message that will set a javascript variable to 1... but that should not affect anything to do with the HTML.  Realised that wasn't working actually (depending on which cached version of the javascript file you had) so have updated that, who knows lets see if that fix miraculously does something!

...

Have changed a the way the HTML/CSS works a bit, hopefully not much/any difference.  HTML has this lovely way of calculating widths (and heights, but it's the width that's the kicker).  An area has margin, border, padding and finally the actual content.  If I set something to take up the page width (by making it's width 100%) then that's calculated according to the content and padding around it.  Only those two.  If I add a 1px border around this content then it's width is left border + 100% + right border.  Horray, it's width is now 100% + 2 pixels.. i.e. it's wider than the screen and we have a scrollbar or overlapping sections.

Even more fun when I try to make two boxes sit side-by-side by making their width 50% each.  If I have a border then they're actually both over 50% so they're rendered one above the other.

It's crazy and doesn't make sense.  The way around it was to use a "calc" entry in CSS which has about 98% browser compatibility.  You'd figure your border and margin and then set your width with "width: calc(100% - 2px);" or whatever you needed to shrink it by.  Change the border or margin?  Go back and edit the width as well.  Painful and for me has never been intuitive.

Anyhoo there's a CSS setting which is "box-sizing: border-box;".  Knew and forgot about it until recently.  This makes the box size calculations include the margin and border... oddly enough this is how IE6 used to do it.  The nice thing about this option is the browser compatibility is about 99%.

So... I've gone through all my horrible "calc" entries and removed them whenever possible, setting nice sensible widths of 100%, 50%, 33.3% and so on.  Now it's all much easier.

...

In amongst doing all that I fixed a bunch of other stuff.  Honest.  Problem is I can't remember what I've done...

Added Earthdawn: Age of Legend and Zombie World to the dice roller.  If you're using the responsive site you can now use these systems on the roller.  People on the traditional site can see the entries in the log file but can't use the system to make their own rolls unless they switch to r.rpol.net.

Stuff.. things, tweaked stuff.  Have had a cold for over a week so it's hard to remember!

See how stuff 'n' things are now, hopefully haven't made anything worse!
jase
admin, 3664 posts
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Thu 8 Aug 2019
at 09:50

Re: RPoL Design Update

Oh yes, updated the cast list.  Now hides the info that probably doesn't need to be seen at a glance.  Hovering/clicking shows the additional information that's hidden.. plus a few extra links now.
nauthiz
subscriber, 618 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 00:35
  • msg #207

Re: RPoL Design Update

Bug Report: When trying to view a game map assigned to a specific group, the following error is returned.

quote:
Missing game identifierSorry, but no game id was passed.


The map is viewable on the non-responsive site.
jase
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Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 01:49
  • msg #208

Re: RPoL Design Update

The problems a simple typo causes!  Thanks.
inirlan
member, 6 posts
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 10:41
  • msg #209

Re: RPoL Design Update

Reading up ASCII character sheets is much more inconvenient on mobile now. The width is far too narrow and you can't zoom out.

Outside of that. *Shrug* It's a different interface so I am going to prefer the old one at first. The drop down menu with cast, dice roller, PMs and so on is neat, but the icon really needs a small arrow or triangle, as I spent way too long looking for all those things and not realising that that icon was a drop down menu and not just the dice roller.
This message was last edited by the user at 10:43, Fri 23 Aug 2019.
jase
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Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 12:31
  • msg #210

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to inirlan (msg # 209):

Not sure how to fix the sheet issue, they're really wide by design/necessity and mobiles aren't!

Thanks for the feedback regarding the menus, good to have a fresh perspective as I use manipulating the screen width to go into mobile view a lot of the time and that's when I see the menus collapse down and the colouring flow through... so to me it seemed obvious!  (c;
Skald
moderator, 863 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 14:08

Re: RPoL Design Update

I think the issue with character sheets being too wide for a mobile screen is something that should be addressed in character sheet design, rather than site design ?

If anyone wants to create some mobile-friendly (ie narrow) character sheets for the more popular game systems, just send them to me over in Heaven - Gaming Resources link to another game and I'll add them to the existing character sheet list and flag them mobile friendly.

Is there a magic number of characters (non-proportional font) we should be aiming for on a mobile device that I could suggest people stick to ?  :>
Skald
moderator, 864 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 14:25
  • msg #212

Re: RPoL Design Update

Just a thought ... for the front page of responsive site ... would it look better if all the text was in the left hand column (ie put the "Create and GM" etc wording under the existing two text blocks under the Welcome to RolePlay onLine! heading, and have all the blocks with grey headings on the right hand side (with the sidebars to the far right).

I think it looks a bit unbalanced at the moment, and this might help - or not.  <grins>  If nothing else, it might save a bit a real estate as there's a couple of empty spots that would be eliminated, though I appreciate blank space is important, so might have to add more in by design if needs be.
jase
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Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 17:27
  • msg #213

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 212):

Won't that make it even more lopsided?  The "Welcome" text is only about 2/3rds the height of the blocks.  The total height of the blocks is actually a little bit more than the current layout so it'll actually take up more space.

Doesn't look terrible with my quick mockup in paint but not sure it's solving any of the problems you've highlighted!  (c;
ppwhere
member, 19 posts
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 20:42
  • msg #214

Re: RPoL Design Update

One of my players mentioned an interesting thing... In the new site in desktop mode you have much less space for content... For mobile mode it is great, you have a wide view but it is quite the different in desktop
On the left side character information takes around the same size but with much more padding. On the right side you have now the menu, eating up quite a lot of space, so on a smaller laptop you can see now much less information



One different problem is encoding in character descroption... I've checked one what looked nice on the "old" site, using some accented hungarian characters like áéíóöőúüű
None of these were looking nice in the new site. Interestingly they are fine here, so it is might be only a description problem
This message was last edited by the user at 20:43, Fri 23 Aug 2019.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 103 posts
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 21:43
  • msg #215

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to ppwhere (msg # 214):

quote:
In the new site in desktop mode you have much less space for content... For mobile mode it is great, you have a wide view but it is quite the different in desktop

I hadn't peeked at the responsive site until today, but this would be my gripe, too.

I solely view RPoL on my desktop, and on the new site, I can really only manage to get maybe half the width of my monitor for viewing of actual posts. Sizing the browser down gets smaller, but sizing it up just... doesn't past a certain point. It would be nice to be able to fully manipulate the viewable thread space to whatever size I like.
jase
admin, 3689 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 02:00

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
Sizing the browser down gets smaller, but sizing it up just... doesn't past a certain point. It would be nice to be able to fully manipulate the viewable thread space to whatever size I like.

You can with a custom theme!  If you do use it just beware that the base css gets updated a fair bit at the moment so your theme can become outdated.

We've followed typography recommendations for speed of reading and reduced eye strain... and even then we've increased beyond the recommended width by a fair bit.  Basically the longer the line gets the longer it takes to focus on the start of the next line.  Increasing line height helps with this but then you end up with longer lines but larger gaps, so no more words per page.  All this isn't really my forte which is why I followed (pretty universal) recommendations.  But  even then I must admit I wonder how well it works here as I find some content is a bit squished.

I think the width works well for reading a few paragraphs of text but if there's any tables (for example) then it can start to suffer.

Definitely don't look at the private groups screen on the GM menu!  (c;
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 104 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 02:28
  • msg #217

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
SunRuanEr:
Sizing the browser down gets smaller, but sizing it up just... doesn't past a certain point. It would be nice to be able to fully manipulate the viewable thread space to whatever size I like.

You can with a custom theme!  If you do use it just beware that the base css gets updated a fair bit at the moment so your theme can become outdated.

Awesome! Or well, awesome that there's a way to do it with a custom theme. (I have several games that really, really like to have huge, giant posts, and it's much easier to deal with them if I'm not having to scroll down for ten years to read them.) I realize that the more up-and-down rectangle of the responsive site works great with phones, but it feels like I'm just wasting valuable monitor space on the desktop the way it's set up.

Now, if I could just figure out HOW to fix that with custom themes... <.<

In all seriousness, is setting a custom theme going to be the only way to get the responsive site to read wider when it goes live? Because that doesn't seem terribly intuitive.
horus
member, 846 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 03:32
  • msg #218

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 217):

I'm with you on this:  is it possible we could allow for, maybe, configuring and saving "device profiles" that could be selected to accommodate different devices?

Something like:

4:3 Display
16:9 Display - Landscape
16:9 Display - Portrait
Phone/Tablet - Portrait
Phone/Tablet - Landscape

(Most tablets are 16:10, so these could also serve for the 16:10 display panels still in service.  I'm not so sure what the prevailing format is for most phones.)

Am I looking at this all crabbed?
jase
admin, 3691 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 04:55
  • msg #219

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to horus (msg # 218):

Most certainly, that's called a responsive layout.
Skald
moderator, 865 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 04:57
  • msg #220

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Doesn't look terrible with my quick mockup in paint but not sure it's solving any of the problems you've highlighted!

Probably not.  <grins>

On reflection, I think what actually looking for is for the blocks to be all the same size, just for visual appeal.  Stacking them seemed a way of concealing the fact that they're different sizes (unbalanced to my orderly mind).

I've seen a couple of sites which have such text links/info blocks set as a clickable series of big buttons with headings and descriptive text, but they're just one big button per link.  Two of our blocks have multiple links while the others don't link anywhere, though two of them could/I think should - a) browse/search and b) help ... on the basis that 'click here' is a lot friendlier than 'go find it yourself, but we'll give you a clue, it's somewhere on this page'.  :P

For that matter, the browse/search isn't "below" any more as the description says, it's 'just to the right and down a bit' in the sidebar.

And while I'm pulling it all apart (hopefully in a postive way):

  • Preferences info could be moved into the welcome/features list at the top, leaving those blocks dedicated to info that have links.

  • Logging in - the existing users see the new user frame anyway, so I'd suggest either a proper split, one screen for existing, one screen for new (which would take up less space on mobile devices) OR (my preference) throw to the same screen for both new and existing users - but tweak the layout so the frames for each take half the screen.  If responsive can detect mobile/portrait, then stack 'em one above the other, otherwise side by side.  If you can find an RPOL cookie then put the existing on top.

  • Handy Links - throw to new FAQ page "FAQ for New Users" with those three links a) Beginners, b) Players, c) GM, and d) Creating a game (just matches the existing links for "FAQ for New Users" under the table of contents side frame) - would allow us to add in some more general information to help new users navigate the site (and maybe add a new Preferences FAQ) AND take that block back to a single link

All of the above tweaks would give us one link per block, allowing for that uniform 'button' style which I'm fond of.  :>
ppwhere
member, 20 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 09:22
  • msg #221

Re: RPoL Design Update

One more note... In the portrait selection page the menu on the right side and the pictures are overlapping on my screen. Tried to change the browser windows size it looks to me my screen is smaller than the minimum it looks nice.
horus
member, 847 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 09:42
  • msg #222

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
In reply to horus (msg # 218):

Most certainly, that's called a responsive layout.

Okay, I get that, I think...

Is the wasted space that SunRuanEr was speaking of a function of the layout being adjusted to fit a majority of screen formats?  What I was suggesting was an extension of the custom theme idea, where a user could configure and store more than one.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 105 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 13:56
  • msg #223

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to horus (msg # 222):

Doesn't feel very responsive, unfortunately, if I can't get it to actually go all the way across my 16:9 monitor without jumping through hoops greater than just enlarging the window. Currently, the wasted space I'm talking about is that even when I resize the browser window to go across the entire width of the monitor, the actual post portion (discounting the portrait/bio lines/etc) refuses to get more than about 6" wide. It just STOPS and starts adding more empty space around the actual post portion. That leaves me with what looks like a bit less than half (I haven't measured it, but I eyeball pretty well) as much viewing area as I get currently at maximum width. Which pretty much leaves me only being able to see one post at a time in most of my games - sometimes less, sometimes more, but it's certainly leaving me with far less of an 'overview' of what's happening in a scene than I get on live.

That makes me sad. I can live with it, if I have to, but I distinctly don't like it because it forces me to constantly scroll down - sometimes just to finish reading a single post, if that post is even of a middling length - or constantly scroll up, if I'm trying to write a post in response to something.

Jase says that's fixable in custom themes, so I believe him, but I'll be 100% honest (and feel stupid) when I say that I cannot even BEGIN to figure out how to fix that in custom themes, so maybe we need a more intuitive way to adjust that when the responsive site goes live?

More importantly, I read posts on both my monitor AND my phone (as do most of the people in my games that I know of), so if we have to set a custom theme to be able to actually get the important parts of the site to BE monitor-sized when read on a monitor, what's that going to do when it's read on a phone? (I would test this, but that would require being able to figure out how to set the theme in the first place.)
ppwhere
member, 21 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 15:11
  • msg #224

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm not sure how much "wishes" we can push in, but I very liked the fact that in the classic site menu was always available as it was fixed on top... Could the new right side menu do something similar? Float always on the right side? Although it could be more problematic as it might not fit into one screen (For me it is actually 1.5 screens)
jase
admin, 3694 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 15:22

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 220):

Think you'll need to mock something up for me.  (c;


horus:
Is the wasted space that SunRuanEr was speaking of a function of the layout being adjusted to fit a majority of screen formats?  What I was suggesting was an extension of the custom theme idea, where a user could configure and store more than one.

Drag the side of your browser window narrower.  At 800 pixels in width you'll notice the menus collapse, that should be around tablet width and possibly phones in landscape mode.  At 695 pixels you'll notice left-right columns collapse so they're top-bottom instead, that should be mobiles and smaller tablets in portrait mode.

There's also much smaller adjustments as the screen shrinks as many of the calculations are percentage based.


SunRuanEr:
Jase says that's fixable in custom themes, so I believe him, but I'll be 100% honest (and feel stupid) when I say that I cannot even BEGIN to figure out how to fix that in custom themes, so maybe we need a more intuitive way to adjust that when the responsive site goes live?

Preferences > Create Custom Theme.  Scroll to "maximum page width (1,000 to 2,000):", edit to whatever you want.  Hit "Create!".  That'll create a custom theme based on your currently selected theme but with your own width setting.



My monitor is 3,440 pixels wide so if anyone knows about space on the sides it's me.  I cannot run my browsers full-screen anymore because if a website doesn't have a maximum text length it's absolutely horrible to read.  I know there's a limit, if I run full screen I've actually got to track the line I'm reading all the way back to the start and then jump down a line, if it's a usable width then I can just snap down a line and to the left edge.

Anyhoo, I've increased the maximum screen width from 1200 pixels to 1400.  That results in a content (message) width increase of somewhere around 21% from 675 pixels to 817.  That increases the characters per line from around 100 to 125 (don't ask me why it's not a 21% increase, possibly just the sample text I used).

As a result I had to increase the line height (the vertical gap between each line) as it was getting a difficult to read without it.

The left column is probably now a little too wide as it's a percentage so I'll look at reducing that.

Not sold on it, I think the content is a bit too stretched out now.  Even this post screen seems weird.  Longer posts seem to be better but short ones look silly.

FYI we've gone way outside the recommendations.  Recommendations are a maximum of 75 characters per line, 85 at a push.  The other part of the recommendation is that the longer the line gets the larger the line height.  With our width line height should be about 2.0, we've got it at 1.7.  Read a bit more of the thread and you'll see I've got on ad nauseam about it.

I think maybe if I reduce the left column width a bit we should look at about 800 pixels for the message content, so a little bit less than what we've got now.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 107 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 16:22
  • msg #226

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Preferences > Create Custom Theme.  Scroll to "maximum page width (1,000 to 2,000):", edit to whatever you want.  Hit "Create!".  That'll create a custom theme based on your currently selected theme but with your own width setting.

Thanks jase! Going all the way up DOES help a lot. That gets the lefthand side of the text to within about a centimeter of where it currently is on a fullscreen browser. I'm still losing a good two inches or so of readable space to the right-hand side menus, though. Is there a preference to force-collapse those to the top so that the text goes all the way to the right, like when you make the window too narrow? If not, could we GET one?

Overall, posts do still take up considerably more space top-to-bottom, with the wasted space around them and the increased line height. Even at a 15% reduced magnification on my browser, the same post I've been repeatedly looking at for this still takes up half again as much vertical room. Still, that's fixable just by lowering the magnification on RPoL. Somewhat, because obviously there are limits to just how small text can be made yet still be readable.

Obviously, my viewing preferences are far outside of "recommended", but sometimes the speed limit is just too slow. Anything that allows us to customize the responsive site to function as close as possible to the current site is a good thing, in my book. Years and years of reading posts that are very wide means that anything significantly less than that now just feels... wrong.

Went and tested phone vs. browser at full maximum page width, and it works great in both versions. :)
jase
admin, 3696 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 17:23

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
Is there a preference to force-collapse those to the top so that the text goes all the way to the right, like when you make the window too narrow? If not, could we GET one?

Ahhh, no and no.

SunRuanEr:
Obviously, my viewing preferences are far outside of "recommended", but sometimes the speed limit is just too slow. Anything that allows us to customize the responsive site to function as close as possible to the current site is a good thing, in my book. Years and years of reading posts that are very wide means that anything significantly less than that now just feels... wrong.

I think you need to give it time to settle in with you.  It's a completely new site layout, making it like the old means I'm just wasting a whole stack of my (and everyone else's) time.

Like any new site (and you should really think of it that way) it'll be different to most others.  Disliking site B because it doesn't look like site A isn't doing it any justice or giving it a fair chance.

I pushed cruinne (who came up with the original layout) for wider and wider as I found it cramped.  Now I find the responsive site far better to read than the old site.. and I'm even finding this increased 1400 pixel layout too wide.  I use the responsive site all the time now and I've got a bit more "wasted" space than you!  (c;

I had to look at things objectively and there were a lot of things wrong with the current site.  Font size, line height and line length being several of them.  Regardless of my personal feelings on the matter and the sadness of leaving behind a layout I dreamt up in 2000, I followed recommended guidelines wherever it suited the site and (though I still miss the squiggly line divider in messages) I begrudgingly eventually had to admit that the new layout was far superior.

I've just gone through all my browser tabs (about 30 of them) and not a single site I'm visiting has a layout as wide as the responsive site here.  Zippo.  Most have a content width about 20-30% narrower and larger fonts to boot.

Give it a chance, if you focus on the wasted space then that's all you'll ever see.
Aethulred
member, 6 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 17:25
  • msg #228

Re: RPoL Design Update

Mistakenly posted this to the Administrators, Skald kindly redirected me so this is a re-post.

Looks quite nice:
1. Put a feedback button up so folks can respond with comments. [I didn't see this link ...need bigger print ;-) ]
2. Allow us to enlarge the fonts, as not all are 20 years old with 20/20 vision.
3. Make the colors clear ... I have issues on the old site between the Black of nothing happening and the Blue of a PM. Bold would have helped, and this new page seems to go that way.

I'm old, so I really don't mind the old site at all, excepting the issue (3.) I just mentioned.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 108 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 18:04
  • msg #229

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 227):

Oh, I'm going to give it a chance. Like I said, being able to extend the line width fixes 99% of my issues with it. That said, is there a particular reason why you don't want to give us the option to collapse the right-hand menu up to the top? (Or can't, I suppose, if the code restricts it. I'm just curious.)

Even if moving the menu didn't extend the line length, it's an option that would be handy because it would allow more customization of browser setup when the page is used. I personally spend a lot of time with the browser window narrowed so that I can see information in a second window behind it, and without the ability to manually collapse those menus that just reduces my reading field too much again. (Full-screening the browser with the maximum line width is necessary to bring it up to close to where I'd like it. Which is a fine solution, when I can full-screen the browser, which I can't always do.) Adjusting the max line width AND having an option to make the righthand menus go to the top would be a really nice thing, and I don't think that would be making the new site just like the old - the way the new one looks on a phone (and presumably a tablet) is spectacular, and I assume the goal. That alone makes it nothing like the old. That said, I am very glad we have the option to increase the line width, and am so very grateful for it.

Seriously though, the responsive site really does look nice other than being too narrow for my tastes. You've done a great job on it, and please don't think that anyone giving feedback that says 'I don't particularly like X' means they're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. :)

(As an aside, is it a known issue that Notices and Closed Threads aren't being marked with their icons? I had thought that icons across the board were just not working, but then I just noticed that the New Message icon is.)
Aethulred
member, 7 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 18:43
  • msg #230

Re: RPoL Design Update

I also note the lack of a<Game> & < Main> menu at the top right of he page when posting, that would be nice, so you don't have to scroll through the past 5 or 6 posts to go back up. Several games I am in have multiple threads going, so being able to return to the Game is important as well.
ppwhere
member, 22 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 19:48
  • msg #231

Re: RPoL Design Update

One more idea... As the content part made thinner and we have sooo much "empty" space could the portrait made bigger? Or at least a config option for it in theme? If I'm right on the Character Details part it is 102px but next to a comment it is just 50px

Also it looks to me <large> is not working in the new site and probably <smallcaps> too

And one last bug, alignment in easy tables looks dead as well right now...

These probably well known problems as if I'm right you are working on the css now, just wanted to flag up them in case you didn't know about them

And hopefully a last css problem... Character details and easy tables again. 100% in the classic site meant that the full width of the current character sheet which could be used to create some very neat character sheets... In the responsive site 100% means a preset max width which makes it much less useful... If this is how it is designed to work I'll just replace it with some more hardcoded width settings so there are some options...
This message was last edited by the user at 20:16, Sat 24 Aug 2019.
Raddek
supporter, 11 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 22:38
  • msg #232

Re: RPoL Design Update

Jase, thanks for all the work on the responsive site - The one thing I've noticed in the scripting is that in the GM menu, private (language) groups, that the table for the 32 groups overlaps the "your account" sidebar.  Basically the "This page scrolls right unless you use a wide screen -->" and groups 28 through 32 overlap with the sidebar.

This was done on a crappy old netbook running chrome - so I'm not sure if it is a widespread issue.
horus
member, 849 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 01:44
  • msg #233

Re: RPoL Design Update

Looked in on one of my games this evening.  From where I sit, with the recent updates to widen the text line a bit, I'm beginning to see things differently than I did.

Yeah, I was, maybe, a bit resistant to change.  Reading over the UI recommendations jase mentioned sort of brought that home to me.  Those recommendations are based on some sound principles and the results of well-controlled studies, as I recall.

I have a laptop with a 15.4" 1920 X 1080 display, and a 19" 1600 X 900 flat panel on a home-made pole mount over it.  I find myself looking at the responsive site more comfortably on the 19" display, and either zooming or narrowing the window on my laptop's display to be comfortable when I use it.

(I'm really wondering if I should rotate my external monitor into "portrait" mode and test that way?  I'll have to install a longer pole in the mount...)
jase
admin, 3697 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 02:22

Re: RPoL Design Update

A few quick things;

Popped a link on the main menu to this forum.  Had been meaning to, thanks for the prompt.

Font size is larger than the current site, about 15% larger so not sure why the font size issue.

Fixed closed/notice icons.  Think I was going to change the way it was done for compatibility issues but left it as it was going to be implement, let me know if any browsers don't show the icons.

GM private group screen is very wide due to the number of groups.  Refuses to side-scroll at the moment but working in it.

Have to cut it short for now but thanks for the feedback, will read more in-depth later!
Aethulred
member, 8 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 03:29
  • msg #235

Re: RPoL Design Update

Noted an issuetoday where it did not acknowledge that I had read the message and kept it marked as new...
nauthiz
subscriber, 619 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 06:11
  • msg #236

Re: RPoL Design Update

So, with the recent changes, noticed something odd with the vertical spacing of certain text elements.

It's very pronounced on mobile.

https://i.imgur.com/ihg4C9x.jpg

Though even via a desktop machine there's still some text dipping down into the "border" line that seems like it's supposed to contain it.

https://i.imgur.com/aAOgtoB.jpg
nauthiz
subscriber, 620 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 06:14
  • msg #237

Re: RPoL Design Update

Aethulred:
Noted an issuetoday where it did not acknowledge that I had read the message and kept it marked as new...


You might try clearing your browser's cookies and trying again, especially if you're bouncing between the "classic" site and the responsive one on the same device.  It has been an occasional issue for years and typically clearing the cookies takes care of it.
Skald
moderator, 870 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 07:15
  • msg #238

Re: RPoL Design Update

Mocked up the changes to the responsive site front screen (pre login) for clarification, mostly what I was proposing:

https://drive.google.com/file/...57H/view?usp=sharing

  • Moved preferences information to the welcome text at the top (and reworded slightly)
  • Added impossible cube logo to info block headings
  • Standardised size of info blocks (allowing four lines of text below heading) to balance them
  • Moved "games on record text" from welcome text to the Find a Game info block
  • Reworded Find a Game and Help info blocks - blue text should be set as links to the relevant subscreen

DIDN'T turn them into those buttons I was talking about (actually a better comparison would be the Tiles that Windows uses) as that's another step again, and would require some thought on the colour scheme to be used to make them stand out as a clickable element.  Might be a step too far.  ;>
jase
admin, 3698 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 07:26

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok, fuller responses...

Larger fonts throws out all sorts of calculations.  It's already larger than what we'e got currently so confused it's not a complaint about the old site!

Will look if I can tweak the PM blue.

SunRuanEr:
is there a particular reason why you don't want to give us the option to collapse the right-hand menu up to the top?

A few reasons; Effort vs reward.  The layout is new and everyone needs time to adjust.  Lastly, having used it for quite some time, I don't think it's necessary.

Aethulred:
I also note the lack of a<Game> & < Main> menu at the top right of he page when posting

Main should be top left, called "Home".  There was some discussion about whether to call it Home or "Main Menu".  I've actually avoided Home as I think on RPoL it could be confused with going back to the game "home" screen.  Might go change it shortly actually so could well become "Main Menu"!  (c;

Game link should be on the brown menu; This forum > Game Menu.  Should be the first option.

ppwhere:
One more idea... As the content part made thinner and we have sooo much "empty" space could the portrait made bigger? Or at least a config option for it in theme? If I'm right on the Character Details part it is 102px but next to a comment it is just 50px

Tried it and it actually messed with the layout of that section, pushes it higher than it normally is.  While the name, bio etc are to the left of the portrait the "rMail" etc links are actually below it (and to the left).

Thought it was a good idea which is why I tried it, but it ends up not quite working and at first glance it also seems a bit too large and all the portraits dominate the thread.

ppwhere:
Also it looks to me <large> is not working in the new site and probably <smallcaps> too

Thanks fixed!
Pretty sure it gets larger.
Pretty sure it gets larger.
Pretty sure it gets larger.
Pretty sure it gets larger.

(If you've got a custom theme make sure you update it to get the latest changes.)

ppwhere:
And one last bug, alignment in easy tables looks dead as well right now...

Thought I'd fixed that one, will have to check it out some more.

ppwhere:
These probably well known problems as if I'm right you are working on the css now, just wanted to flag up them in case you didn't know about them

Always a tricky one.  Some I know about and have been ignoring, others are on the to-do list and then lastly there's some that I'm unaware of.  Just raise them here and I'll do my best to fix them pretty quickly if they're not a really stubborn problem.

ppwhere:
And hopefully a last css problem... Character details and easy tables again. 100% in the classic site meant that the full width of the current character sheet which could be used to create some very neat character sheets... In the responsive site 100% means a preset max width which makes it much less useful... If this is how it is designed to work I'll just replace it with some more hardcoded width settings so there are some options...

Have just hacked in something quickly, give it a go I don't have any good examples to test it against.

Raddek:
Jase, thanks for all the work on the responsive site - The one thing I've noticed in the scripting is that in the GM menu, private (language) groups, that the table for the 32 groups overlaps the "your account" sidebar.  Basically the "This page scrolls right unless you use a wide screen -->" and groups 28 through 32 overlap with the sidebar.

Oh yeah, that was one I was avoiding.  But I need prods to fix these things so fixed!  Should side-scroll now.

horus:
Yeah, I was, maybe, a bit resistant to change.  Reading over the UI recommendations jase mentioned sort of brought that home to me.  Those recommendations are based on some sound principles and the results of well-controlled studies, as I recall.

I was quite resistant to it myself, took me a while to get used to the responsive layout (have been messing with it since 2012!).  While (often self-proclaimed) experts aren't the be all and end all I had to recognise that (a) I didn't have a clue about aesthetics, typography and flow and (b) everyone was saying the exact same thing, couldn't find anyone to back up my cause!  Begrudgingly tried the responsive layout and then eventually begrudgingly admitted they were right.

That said, we do have a need for wider content than most due to character sheets (pretty much that's the only reason actually) so I did widen it.  It was originally around 65 characters per line, the 70, 80, finally 100.  Now we're at 125 and I think it makes some pages look weird (compose screen, main menu, threads with brief posts).

Aethulred:
Noted an issuetoday where it did not acknowledge that I had read the message and kept it marked as new...

As pointed out by others this will probably be due to cookies between the two sites getting confused.  Relog will help, also might seem odd but log out of rpol.net and just stay logged in to r.rpol.net.


nauthiz:
So, with the recent changes, noticed something odd with the vertical spacing of certain text elements.

Ah, thanks.  The icons were forcing the text down.  Fixed.


... and thanks Skald, looks good.  Will save that for next time!  (c;
ppwhere
member, 23 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 09:13
  • msg #240

Re: RPoL Design Update

Testing alignment in easy tables

Preset alignment with header

LeftMiddleRight
TestTestTest
TestTestTest
TestTestTest

Preset alignment with no header

TestTestTest
TestTestTest
TestTestTest

In-line alignment

LeftMiddleRight
TestTestTest
TestTestTest
TestTestTest

Looks like middle alignment is not working and for some reason left overwrites the header's default middle alignment


For character sheets I have some good examples, not sure if that is good enough for you
This message was last edited by the user at 09:17, Sun 25 Aug 2019.
nauthiz
subscriber, 621 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 09:16
  • msg #241

Re: RPoL Design Update

Question: Is there a way for players to effect the GM character sheet options of "Fixed Width, Word Wrap Off" and "Variable Width, Word Wrap On"?

I have two games I play in with nearly identically formatted sheets.  One of them keeps its formatting on narrow width screens and allows the option to scroll left/right, the other text wraps and breaks the formatting.  Some experimenting on the Beta site revealed those GM options seemed to be the culprit.  If it's set to "Variable Width" the sheet breaks, if it's set to "Fixed Width" it doesn't.

Both sheets include the <tt></tt> tags which used to be the key to keeping things nice even if the GM didn't check that option on the character sheet screen.
Ymdar
member, 6 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 11:06
  • msg #242

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm not sure if it is just me but the new site is well pretty ugly compared to the old one. I'm sorry but this design looks like a forum where I would ask advice on how to improve my gaming PC or how to tune up my car. I understand that it probably takes a lot of work and the effort of many to improve stuff but it just feels like rpol is losing it's soul with the new skin.
jase
admin, 3699 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 14:14

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to ppwhere (msg # 240):

Fixed, thanks.  I think a bit of it might be broken on the old site too!


In reply to nauthiz (msg # 241):

<tt></tt> will use a fixed width font but still word wrap.  Think of it like the compose screen I'm using right now!

What you want is <pre>.  That's what setting "fixed width" for the sheet does... wraps the whole thing in a <pre></pre> block.


In reply to Ymdar (msg # 242):

I'll admit it's very different to the current site but don't agree it's ugly.  The old site certainly has a lot of charm, a bit like an old house... but like in an old house when you look at that charm you realise that walls don't meet up at 90 degree angles and everything's just a bit.. wrong.  The current site design is nineteen years old (today!), you can't claim it's not dated.  Try it on a mobile.. yeuch.

Yes the responsive site is missing some of the old charm but I don't miss editing the clutter underneath.  Some of the code is so old that's it's about to get phased out and no longer supported by browsers!

I haven't settled on the colour scheme here (heck, you guys can even create a new one and then tell me about it, I can grab your custom theme) and nor have I given up getting the horizontal twirl between messages back for some nostalgia, but I'm not going to go out of my way to make walls meet at 87 degrees.
Imladir
member, 12 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 14:46
  • msg #244

Re: RPoL Design Update

It takes some getting used to, but I think it's pretty nice once the initial "shock" has passed.
bazhsw
member, 36 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 14:56
  • msg #245

Re: RPoL Design Update

I am absolutely loving the new design.  Feels a lot better to get around on a mobile but it is really on my laptop where the look and feel shines.  It feels natural already.  I haven't noticed any bugs or difficulties yet.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 109 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 15:23
  • msg #246

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
I haven't settled on the colour scheme here (heck, you guys can even create a new one and then tell me about it, I can grab your custom theme)

Probably answered elsewhere, but again its early and I'm uncaffeinated, but are we going to be getting a version of the existing themes ported over to the responsive site when it goes live? (Or new and exciting themes, those would be fine too!)

(Have been playing with the custom themes more on the responsive site, and noticed that if you set the legend background to black, the icons for New Messages/Closed thread/Notice disappear, and there doesn't seem to be a way to adjust their appearance. Will they be full-color icons when live?)
This message was last edited by the user at 16:21, Sun 25 Aug 2019.
jase
admin, 3700 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 16:35

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 246):

Yes, you'll have more than "white".  Not bothering to update the other colour schemes yet as it's a moving target but it's engineered in such a way now that creating a custom theme creates a file identical to the template it's based off (except for the colours of course!) so in future if I want to create a theme I can actually use the same tool you do and grab the output.  Should make my life a bit easier and I could even outsource it!  (c;

Icons I'll probably create a light and dark set and then you tell the edit what kind of theme it is and it'll load the appropriate icon set.

Or go back to (smaller versions of) the current images we use, I think they work on both light and dark.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 110 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 18:17
  • msg #248

Re: RPoL Design Update

Well, that was an excuse to go make (mostly) a theme! (And that was kind of fun!)

Not sure if this is a case of me overlooking it, or it not being there, but I cannot for the life of me find a way to adjust the color of the light blue line above and below posts that holds the 'all'/'top'/'bottom'/page numbers information (or the color of the text within). I've adjusted everything that appears to be in any way a shade of blue in the default settings, and nothing seems to change that. Is that option missing?

Also, is the customization for the dieroller text buried somewhere strange? (Not the part at the top that says 'The RPoL Die Roller' or the 'Enter in the number of dice...' right beneath that, but the part in the rectangles that says 'Step 1: Choose the dice', 'Select dice and modifers', etc)  I've clearly changed it somehow, because it doesn't seem to match the default settings on my spouse's RPoL, but none of the options in the customizer seem to match what I've changed it to, nor does changing any of the ones that say 'text' seem to change it - I tried all of them on the off chance that the unrecognizable color was being created by some kind of opaque bleedthrough. (It's distinctly possible I'm just losing my mind here...)
Raddek
supporter, 12 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 18:18
  • msg #249

Re: RPoL Design Update

Noticed one more this morning - The game map function doesn't seem to be displaying normally.  I haven't had any issues with <img src> tags, but actually uploading the game map to the site doesn't seem to display anything.  Old site still shows it normally and I even tried reuploading it just in case.
evileeyore
member, 204 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 22:04
  • msg #250

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
... but I'm not going to go out of my way to make walls meet at 87 degrees.

But jase... to many 90° angles will summon the Growlithe of Tindalos...


Iä! Iä! Pokemon fhtagn!
horus
member, 851 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 23:29
  • msg #251

Re: RPoL Design Update

Some things I'm noticing while attempting to replicate my old dark theme from the "classic" site:

When viewing a topic, there's this bar above each post with the links/commands/buttons for "all" and "bottom" that shows in a bright aqua color. What's that bar called?  I can't seem to figure out where it is.  Sorry, already mentioned...

Are there plans to make the editor window follow custom color schemes in the future.  The whole reason I set up a dark scheme is so I can post at night without lighting up a dark room.  (Rough on my eyes, too, as habituated to darkness as I am.)  The window in which I type this message is stark white with black text.

It wouldn't hurt to have a "basic anatomy of the various page components.  I've kinda worked out some of this, but someone who already knows could do the job much more quickly.  (I figure we're far enough along in development some things won't change much.)

As Inspector Colombo might say, "one more thing"... the smallest Easy Grid square size appears to be rendering as a rectangle that is somewhat taller than it is wide.

+-1-+
| | | |
+---+

renders as:

   

Compare to:

+-2-+
|   |
+---+

which renders as:

 

Don't worry, I wont' take that to its ridiculous extreme.
This message was last edited by the user at 00:26, Mon 26 Aug 2019.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 111 posts
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 00:27
  • msg #252

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'll second the query above regarding the editing window. Stark white with tiny black text is painful on the eyes.

The header break line, the one that shows up with a < hr > (sans spaces), could it be made a bit thicker and wider? Currently on the responsive site, even with the default color settings, it's so thin as to be barely noticeable, and doesn't go all the way across the text window width (even when the window is narrowed, there is a significant gap between the break line and the edges).

I've put in a couple more hours of fiddling around, and still can't seem to figure out any way to tweak that light blue/aqua line above and below posts (also the same line that appears right now above my post preview saying 'Preview Post' and below the editing window saying 'Previous Posts'). Still can't figure out how to adjust the text on the dieroller window, either. *goes to keep looking*

Edit: I do have to say, you were (mostly!) right about the section width, jase. I did extend the line width to 1600 on my settings, so it's a wee bit bigger than the base settings, I admit (and I like it that way), but once I fiddled with the theme and darkened things up to make the thread window/portraits section a distinct color from the space to the right, it made the change in size significantly less noticeable. Now it's less 'oh god, things are surrounded by empty space' and more 'huh, there's space to the right, but whatevs'. You were right, that space to the right just blends in after a while.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:55, Mon 26 Aug 2019.
jase
admin, 3701 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 16:15

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
Not sure if this is a case of me overlooking it, or it not being there, but I cannot for the life of me find a way to adjust the color of the light blue line above and below posts that holds the 'all'/'top'/'bottom'/page numbers information


SunRuanEr:
Also, is the customization for the dieroller text buried somewhere strange?

They're MIA at the moment.  Need to finalise the CSS behind that so the customisations aren't available yet.


horus:
Are there plans to make the editor window follow custom color schemes in the future.  The whole reason I set up a dark scheme is so I can post at night without lighting up a dark room.

Good point, update your theme.


horus:
the smallest Easy Grid square size appears to be rendering as a rectangle

Fixed!  Thanks.


Raddek:
Noticed one more this morning - The game map function doesn't seem to be displaying normally.  I haven't had any issues with <img src> tags, but actually uploading the game map to the site doesn't seem to display anything.  Old site still shows it normally and I even tried reuploading it just in case.

I can't see any issue with the game maps, just managed to upload three random maps to different groups, seemed to work fine...

Not the old browser refresh issue is it?
horus
member, 852 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 18:33
  • msg #254

Re: RPoL Design Update

Wow... I was considering a suggestion for setting up a bug tracking system, but it appears you get 'em kilt purty quick, jase.

"The only good bug is a dead bug!"

Thanks, man.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 112 posts
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 18:46
  • msg #255

Re: RPoL Design Update

Sweet! Dark editing window w/white text AND a non-aquablue navigation bar.

I see you there, sneaking in the navigation bar settings without saying anything!
The Stray
member, 114 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 18:57
  • msg #256

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm not sure if this is an issue for anyone but me, but the Text Styles (Serif at least, I'm not sure about Monotype or Cursive) don't seem to be working on the responsive site. They still work fine on the old site.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 113 posts
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 19:08
  • msg #257

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to The Stray (msg # 256):

It's not just  you. Bold, Italics, and Smallcaps are the only ones that appear to be working at the moment for me, as well. Monotype, Cursive, and Serif are not.
nauthiz
subscriber, 622 posts
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 22:56
  • msg #258

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
nauthiz:
So, with the recent changes, noticed something odd with the vertical spacing of certain text elements.

Ah, thanks.  The icons were forcing the text down.  Fixed.


While most of the forums seem to have plenty of space between threads now, the Wanted Players forum still shows the text overlapping in some cases.

It only seems to be an issue where both the game name is long enough to cause the text to wrap, creating a second line, and the time/date/user/genre/system lines are long enough that they wrap to 3 lines vertically.

One or the other isn't an issue, just when they're both present.
Lunarius
member, 413 posts
eadem mutata resurgo
pax ex tyranny
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 12:48
  • msg #259

Re: RPoL Design Update

I apologize if this has already been reported.

As a player, when I go to a game's Cast List and hover over a name and click Description, it takes me to a page that says the player has been removed from the game. It does this with every single player, even though they are actually in the game. It will do this even when a player has set a description.
Imladir
member, 13 posts
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 12:55
  • msg #260

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yep, it does to me too: the link is missing the character ID.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 114 posts
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 13:08
  • msg #261

Re: RPoL Design Update

quote:
when I go to a game's Cast List and hover over a name and click Description

Isn't that a redundant option anyway? Just clicking on the character's name takes you directly to the description, if they have one (and works).
jase
admin, 3702 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 13:17

Re: RPoL Design Update

Sloppy reuse of code, thanks fixed.

Serif, mono and cursive should be good now too.
bigbadron
moderator, 15783 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 13:18

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 261):

Not really redundant.  Hovering over the character name in a thread requires that the character be active somewhere in the page you're looking at, which isn't always the case.  The Cast List  shows the names of every character currently in the game, all listed in one place for convenience.
Lunarius
member, 414 posts
eadem mutata resurgo
pax ex tyranny
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 13:19
  • msg #264

Re: RPoL Design Update

I think they meant in the cast list itself, Ron.
bigbadron
moderator, 15784 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 13:45

Re: RPoL Design Update

D'oh!
jase
admin, 3703 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 15:44

Re: RPoL Design Update

It is redundant but it's also a little more obvious for those who aren't used to the old way.  Don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, though feel free to correct me!  (c;
UnseelieLord
member, 77 posts
Survival of the fittest.
We're all gonna die.
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 17:20
  • msg #267

Re: RPoL Design Update

Others may have already commented along the same lines, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in all the same. While I don't think the new design is necessarily ugly, I think it looks like just about every other message board out there. I can't specifically point to what it is/was about the current/old/original site design of RPoL that set it apart, not just in appearance, but in FEEL, but it did. Prior to RPoL, I hated message board roleplaying. I hated the design of message boards and the format, again, there's nothing specific that I could point to and say "there, that's what I hate" but it just rubbed me wrong. It didn't feel like a place to write stories collaboratively with other writers.

A friend of mine suggested RPoL and I knee jerk refused, because I didn't like message board roleplaying. But he persisted. He said RPoL was different. It looked different. It felt different. So I gave it a chance, and I have been a member of RPoL, writing as time permitted, for over fifteen years now. I never went back to chat, or messenger based roleplay. RPoL had me hooked.

This new site design, format, interface, what have you. Has absolutely none of that feel that originally hooked me into RPoL, and all of the cold, standard message board look and feel that made me avoid message board roleplaying.

I know nothing about code, and the intricacies and difficulties of designing something like RPoL, and I can understand needing an update, and something that isn't so time consuming to work with. But I think it would be beneficial to try to find something closer to a middle ground between this, and the original.

This probably isn't the finished product either, I don't know, this is the first time I've noticed the prompt to check out this new look. So I'm not sure how far along this all is. But like most message boards of the past that have been suggested to me for roleplaying, I find it off-putting. It doesn't feel like somewhere I want to write.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 115 posts
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 17:30
  • msg #268

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to UnseelieLord (msg # 267):

You know, I hadn't thought about it until just right now, but as I read your post I flipped back and forth between the test site and the current site, and while I have really come to be pretty fond of the new site (now that I've tweaked it to my preferences), I do have to say that the old site just "reads" better. I think I figured out why that is, though (at least for me)...

The posts don't look like individual posts. They flow together like a story. Sure, there are tiny lines between them, and different authors to the left, but the words themselves flow seamlessly. (Assuming that players have posted a post of decent length, but that's not something my games have problems with...)

The responsive site has some forced gaps between the posts that make it clear that they're, well, just that - individual posts. Obviously, I hadn't thought about it until just now, when looking for something specific, so it doesn't really bother me... but it is there.
The Stray
member, 115 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Tue 27 Aug 2019
at 20:08
  • msg #269

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 262):

Yup! Seems to be working (at least on my end)!
Mad Mick
member, 951 posts
GURPS beyond measure,
outlander
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 01:47
  • msg #270

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 268):

Yes, I agree. It would be nice if that area with the character name, post time, icon, and hyperlinks to PM, rmail, and info were consolidated so there wasn’t so much empty space there. The responsive site is certainly easier to read, but it seems to lack the charm of the old design. (I still like old Reddit rather than new Reddit, though, so maybe I’m just resistant to change. (= )
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 116 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 02:28
  • msg #271

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 270):

Honestly, I've actually come to quite like the responsive site - it just took some customization to inject some "charm" back into it. (Of course, I never understood how some folks could play with the plain white of the current site, either, so maybe that's just me.)

It's less the space to the left that I was talking about, though, and more the space beneath/between the posts. (I've come to terms with the space to the left, and we are copacetic now.) On responsive, there's a distinct color block that surrounds the body of a post, and a distinct background color to the page, and the post-body color block doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the post section if the post doesn't have a lot of text in it. In addition, even if the color block does go all the way down because the post is longer, there's still a significant gap of space before the next post. That means that a lot of little short posts feel like, well, a lot of little short posts. Almost like trying to follow a story written on Post-Its.

On live, the post block color (at least on the themes I've seen, although I admit I haven't checked them ALL) goes all the way to the bottom of the post section, even if the post is shorter, with just a tiny thin line between one post and the next following it. It "feels" a bit nicer to read, like following a written page.

...and that's not a complaint, because it really isn't something that bothers me personally. I was just trying to put a finger on what UnseelieLord had mentioned a few posts back about the "feel" of the site, and that was my main "this feels different" conclusion I came to. Take it with a grain of salt. :)
horus
member, 853 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 09:24
  • msg #272

Re: RPoL Design Update

I see folks talking about the info on the left side needing to be "consolidated" and wonder what is meant.  From my perspective, if the message number were moved up to the same line as (to the right of) the subject, it might help make the posts flow as SunRuanEr and others were suggesting.

That said, I'm not at all uncomfortable with the responsive layout as-is.  Just making an observation.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 117 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 10:54
  • msg #273

Re: RPoL Design Update

I think what is being talked about is the spread space between the author bio block and the portrait, but maybe I'm wrong. That's what I mean, but it might not be what others are referring to.

I agree about moving the message #, though. Or maybe giving an option to have it in a different color than the rest of the text in the body of a post? Not only is it hard to find (instinctively, I'm always looking to the upper right corner to find it, since that's where it's always been), but it does make the thread title/message #/body of the post all kind of jam together awkwardly since there's no break between title and post.
Skald
moderator, 871 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 10:57
  • msg #274

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr - you might try reducing the number of colours used via preferences (you mentioned you'd already been playing with custom themes) - I set header and footer background, legend (at the bottom of pages) background, main background and thread list, row background (for both odd and even row numbers) to DDDDDD  plus set all the sidebar menus background to BCC7D4 and hover to 969FAA (ie all the same as side menu 4) to try to recreate more of the look and feel of the old site.

To my eye that improved the flow for messages ... but as always everybody's mileage may differ. ;>
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 118 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 11:14
  • msg #275

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 274):

I appreciate the suggestion, Skald. While I have been playing with the colors a lot (I admit!), I actually do have the thread pages of posts themselves simplified with just a header/footer navigation bar color, and then a simple monochromatic charcoal grey/slightly darker grey for the posts and their background, with white text. I found that, for myself, having the posts the exact same color as the background made me "see" more of the space around the text than I liked.

Honestly, I'm not having any trouble with the flow of messages myself. Although the message number IS a little awkwardly placed, I feel, and if I can't move it I'd appreciate being able to make it a different, less-obtrusive color than the one that the text and titles use. (That might already be an option, and I just can't find it. The custom settings are not exactly self-explanatory in a few several places.) I can read it fine, and I can find it, it's just a little jammed-up there between title and text.

Like jase said, I've played with it and given it time, and I'm cool with the responsive site. At this point I'm just in the nitpicky 'what would make it better?' stage. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 11:18, Wed 28 Aug 2019.
jase
admin, 3705 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 11:25

Re: RPoL Design Update

I was looking at trying to get the swirl back but one of the things I was going to do is remove a subject for every message.  I think the thread needs a title but every message doesn't need one.  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:.  That's pretty much all I see.

So it swirl can't go under the subject as it currently is as that'll vanish.  I've briefly tried putting it under each message but not convinced on that... and if there's flow issues then that'll exasperate it..?

Can reduce the spacing between posts a bit but if I go too far it looks cramped.

Probably need to split the aesthetics off to a different thread as it's a massive minefield.  Main focus to date has been making sure the layout works but definitely want to spend time tweaking it and getting it less stale and at least some throwback to the old site.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 119 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 11:30
  • msg #277

Re: RPoL Design Update

If you remove the automatic subject for every message, will you keep the option to put one in if one needs to be added? Several of my games use the same thread for setting location, and adjust the subject title of individual messages to reflect a new date/time/topic, and losing that option would suck.

In the non-aesthetics area, jase, I just found a character description in one of my games with a lot of little... diamond-shaped blocks with ? in them instead of all of his apostrophes. Just the one character, so I feel like MAYBE the player is using some kind of special character that isn't working, but it looks like a normal apostrophe to me over on the current site, so I don't know. Whatever it is, it looks busted.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:45, Wed 28 Aug 2019.
seraphmoon
member, 99 posts
"Plays well with others."
Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 12:23
  • msg #278

Re: RPoL Design Update

That's a character-encoding issue. I suspect that player is writing things in an offline app and then copy-pasting it over. It was happening to me copying from Apple Notes with the smart apostrophes and em dashes, and occasionally the returns. I didn't realize it wasn't happening on the basic site though, so I didn't mention it here. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 13:02, Wed 28 Aug 2019.
Skald
moderator, 873 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 13:00
  • msg #279

Re: RPoL Design Update

Good thought, jase ... created a new thread to discuss appearance, layout and aesthetics in link to a message in this forum.  :>
jase
admin, 3706 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 14:19

Re: RPoL Design Update

New Subject...?

Do you really have to have a subject for every message?  Seems like an awful waste of space to me and would actually improve the flow from one post to the next if there wasn't this superfluous emphasised line.

Only about 1.26% of subjects are changed (have analysed about 39 million posts over 2 million threads).  Of those how many mattered?

Happy to include it, then that's where I can put the squiggle... but are we hanging onto a pretty useless bit of (non)information because that's the way it's always been?


I think the diamond etc symbols might be due to a switch in character encoding.  If it's working on the current site but not on responsive then pretty sure that'll be it, will have to see how to fix that!
This message was last edited by the user at 00:53, Thu 29 Aug 2019.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 120 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 14:43
  • msg #281

New Subject?

jase:
Do you really have to have a subject for every message?  Seems like an awful waste of space to me and would actually improve the flow from one post to the next if there wasn't this superfluous emphasised line.

Only about 1.59% of subjects are changed (have analysed about 17 million posts over 1 million threads).  Of those how many mattered?

Happy to include it, then that's where I can put the squiggle... but are we hanging onto a pretty useless bit of (non)information because that's the way it's always been?

No, we don't actually need to have a subject for EVERY message. And I suppose we don't NEED to have one at all, but in the case of several of my games, it would certainly be helpful (and not just because it's the way we've always done it).

Say for instance, (using examples of a real game) - a classroom thread that gets the Subject line changed by the GM when the classroom subject changes...

...or a military game where the maneuvers being done (on the same field) change when the date advances.

...or a particular thread that updates something the characters can see each week, and therefore has a different date as the subject line for each ICly new post on the same IC board.

I mean, we can live without it, but it's certainly helpful and handy and I feel would look nicer than putting in a manual NEW SUBJECT HERE line at the start of every post (discounting that half the players probably won't remember to DO that anyway - currently the GM can 'set it and forget it', mostly). Besides, it gives you a place to put the squiggle. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 23:31, Wed 28 Aug 2019.
bigbadron
moderator, 15785 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:07

New Subject?

In many information threads in games, the subject lines change from post to post.

The first post might be "Character Creation" which gives the thread title and a brief overview of the initial steps in creation (name, race, how many character points, etc...  This is followed by "Character Creation: Attributes", then "Character Creation: Skills", "Character Creation: Feats", "Character Creation: Abilities", etc... etc... etc...

By putting them in separate posts, the GM can link to the appropriate post when discussing a particular aspect of character creation with a new player.  But the subject lines mean that the player can scan through the thread and quickly determine what is covered in each post.
seraphmoon
member, 100 posts
"Plays well with others."
Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:36
  • msg #283

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 280):

If it helps with the encoding problem, the questionmark-in-diamond that I see is the Unicode replacement character. On the responsive site, I see it when I switch the view from UTF-8 to ISO Latin 1. If I manually switch the view on the basic site to UTF-8, it shows up too. I'm using Safari on OSX 10.14.6.
locojedi
member, 177 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:46
  • msg #284

Re: RPoL Design Update

[ELIMINATION OF SUBJECT LINES]

I say do away with Subject, that's a carryover from old Forum days and needs to go away.

To address the issue a few of you have mentioned, can the same thing be accomplished with an in-post header like I've done above (and below)? If the subject line is gone, then perhaps those headers will pop more to draw the eye.

[ANOTHER SAMPLE HEADER TO MAKE MY POINT]

I sometimes alter the subject lines in posts just a little bit to see if anyone even notices, and very few ever do. I think we can train our eyes to pick out things as well as glaze over things, but from a real-estate point of view, I say get rid of the subject line.
Mad Mick
member, 952 posts
GURPS beyond measure,
outlander
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:51
  • msg #285

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 274):

I’m not seeing all the customizable settings. I’m on mobile, though - perhaps there are less options available for me on iOS?
seraphmoon
member, 101 posts
"Plays well with others."
Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:03
  • msg #286

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 285):

I can see them on both my iPad (10.3.3) and iPhone (12.4). Where are you looking for them? I go home page>Preferences>"create one" under Your Control Panel.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 121 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:11
  • msg #287

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 285):

Did you count them, perchance? I pulled up the customizable settings on my phone and it looked like some were missing (specifically the ones with two columns of colors), but upon counting each section I realized they're all there, they're just in one column instead of two.
Mad Mick
member, 953 posts
GURPS beyond measure,
outlander
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:11
  • msg #288

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to seraphmoon (msg # 286):

Oh, great, thanks!
horus
member, 854 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:15
  • msg #289

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
I think what is being talked about is the spread space between the author bio block and the portrait, but maybe I'm wrong. That's what I mean, but it might not be what others are referring to.


Maybe I should configure an avatar?  Haven't done that since I started using the responsive site.

Urk!  Now I know why.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:17, Wed 28 Aug 2019.
seraphmoon
member, 102 posts
"Plays well with others."
Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:53
  • msg #290

Re: RPoL Design Update

Two things I just noticed:

The "Logout" button on responsive doesn't seem to be clearing the cookies; it just takes me back to the main page with the welcome message and my game/forum lists. Relog works, though.

In the rMail screen, I can't find a "Mark All Read" or "Compose New Message" on responsive.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 123 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 23:52
  • msg #291

Re: RPoL Design Update

Are the fonts for Cursive and Serif and Smallcaps smaller than the regular font now?
They seem much smaller on responsive than on live.

Also, serious question that just dawned on me:
Jase, if you remove the Subject line from posts, what happens to all the Subject lines on existing posts?

I realize we could manually put in bolded headers and the like on posts going forward that didn't have subjects, but... should we be going through and adding hidden header lines to everything that currently exists, in preparation for losing the Subjects? :(
This message was last edited by the user at 01:39, Thu 29 Aug 2019.
Raddek
supporter, 13 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 02:17
  • msg #292

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
I can't see any issue with the game maps, just managed to upload three random maps to different groups, seemed to work fine...

Not the old browser refresh issue is it?


So I did a little more digging.  I tried closing / refreshing with multiple search engines, uploading the map as a JPEG and PNG and loading it to various groups.  As is, I have no problem with any group maps but the game map doesn’t seem to display and basically shows each browser’s graphic for a missing link picture.  Right now I have the same file loaded as the game map and group 0 map but only the group 0 one displays normally.

My best guess is that it may be a physical size issue, as when the group 0 map displays, it spreads well off of the formatted page.
horus
member, 858 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 03:05
  • msg #293

Re: RPoL Design Update

Raddek, which image hosting site are you using?

I've had trouble with using Google Drive for this purpose for some reason, and certain other sites have issues as well.  I think imgur.com still works...
Raddek
supporter, 14 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 04:52
  • msg #294

Re: RPoL Design Update

Game maps are hosted on RPoL.  I honestly didn’t use them until a player requested it, preferring first to just use reference tags at first to my google drive, then <img src> tags through imgur.  I’m not having any issues with any coded references, just the images hosted by RPoL.
horus
member, 859 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 06:36
  • msg #295

Re: RPoL Design Update

Gotcha.  Sorry I wasted your time.

What size images did you upload, perchance?  Less than 100K size?

Well, horseradish!  The game map for one of my games is not displaying in the responive site, either.  That's because my map is larger than 100k.  The limit on the classic site is 1024K.
jase
admin, 3708 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 07:18
  • msg #296

Re: RPoL Design Update

Table of Contents

Subjects, do we need them?
Benefits
Hindrances
Workarounds


Subjects, do we need them?

I'm undecided on whether we really need subjects.

I don't want to have them optional, I think the website needs to either have them or not so we need to decide.

Table of Contents


Benefits

People use them to change the current topic or as a kind of heading.

It's what everyone is used to.

It could be where the squiggle goes!

Table of Contents


Hindrances

Around 99% unused.  The more I analysed threads the lower the number got.  Didn’t even finish the full thread analysis so not sure how low it would have gone.

I realise someone people use them but I’m not sure if that’s a reason to continue on.  If I was proposing a new feature and only 1% was going to use it then I doubt I’d implement it.

We’ve got the opportunity to consider what is and really think about if it should be.

“Re:” is stupid.  No matter what we decide I’ll be getting rid of that.  We’re not replying to emails.


Table of Contents


Workarounds

Hopefully you’ve figured what I think is a good workaround by now…  (c;

Table of Contents


I had planned on phasing out subjects but if there's enough call for them to remain then they'll remain!

Will check out the map size limitations, didn't think it'd be different on the responsive site.
nauthiz
subscriber, 624 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 08:36
  • msg #297

Re: RPoL Desine Update

As part of the 99%, I wouldn't miss them.  If I have ever been in a game that used them in any significant way beyond the initial first post in a thread, I don't recall it.

I think the only times I have used them personally is to be subtly cheeky about something, and that was mainly because I knew it would take people time to notice that I'd changed it mid-thread because they do just fade into the background and get ignored the vast majority of the time
bigbadron
moderator, 15787 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 09:31

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to nauthiz (msg # 297):

Not that subtle really.  :)
evileeyore
member, 207 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 10:36
  • msg #299

RE: Subjects? Huh, what are they good for?

I'm in favor of 'em, just out of both inertia and as a reminder of what bloody thread I'm posting in.

However, that said, this site isn't exactly crying out in need of them and I probably won't even notice their absence.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 124 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 10:57
  • msg #300

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 296):

You've given us some good workarounds there, jase, so I can't say I'm panicking about potentially losing Subject titles. I am still on the side of keeping them instead of doing away with them - although I do wholeheartedly agree with losing the 'Re:'. Speaking of, what triggers that in the first place? I noticed while flipping through a thread recently that only a few posts at the start had an 'Re:' on them (and they weren't ones using the 'In reply to' from the Reply button, unless the authors specifically backed that portion out after using it), but then once someone started posting replies to the second (oddly, not the first) 'Re:' post, then the 'Re's were everywhere.

I think the most important benefits of them (beyond a home for the squiggle!) is that it lets the GM change the topic within the thread setting and automatically puts it up for each successive post made by a player so the players aren't tasked with having to remember to manually put in their own new header, and (as evileeyore just mentioned) that they provide a reminder for what thread is being posted in. If we rely on the GM to manually put in a header when something is changed, and then the players drop the ball (and my experience is that they will), well... if we're three posts past the GM post, we can scroll back up. If we're three PAGES past the GM post, things will get confusing.

Seriously though, what will happen to currently-existing Subjects if you remove them? (Edit: I realize you said 'phase out' which implies they'll hang around, but I like to be 100% sure.)

I'm not panicking about not being able to use them going forward (as you said, my games are apparently in the 1%, so I'll adjust if I have to), but I am rather panicky about losing the ones that already exist. I've got... well, more than I want to count right now posts that rely on the Subject line to keep the information in them set by in-game date/time (and no real way to tell from the body of the post, if that suddenly disappears). Should I be going through and adding headers to those posts, just in case?
This message was last edited by the user at 11:09, Thu 29 Aug 2019.
bigbadron
moderator, 15788 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 12:16

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 300):

Used to run a game where the subject line basically said something like. "Profit Margin - Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 11:00".  So location, date, and time.  As the thread lengthened, the time and date were changed to reflect advancing time.  An in-character time stamp for the players and GM.  Saved a lot of "Okay, we had six hours to complete this repair... Hey, GM!  How long have we got left before the core melts down?"

As the subject line of the post that information is, currently, always there automatically in every post, and right where the players can find it easily as they are posting.  It never gets bumped off the page if the players get into long IC discussions or planning sessions.

Could I live without it?  Probably.  Eventually.

Would I miss the convenience of having it there?  Definitely.
horus
member, 860 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 16:00
  • msg #302

Re: RPoL Design Update

I see subject lines as organizational data:  they are there to herald what a post is about, and to make searching for a particular post or block of posts within a topic somewhat easier.  I would hate to see them go.
Raddek
supporter, 15 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 16:22
  • msg #303

Re: RPoL Design Update

horus:
What size images did you upload, perchance?  Less than 100K size?

Well, horseradish!  The game map for one of my games is not displaying in the responive site, either.  That's because my map is larger than 100k.  The limit on the classic site is 1024K.


Shoot, that’s exactly what it was.  I noticed the 1024 limit in the old site, must have missed the change.  Odd that the same restriction isn’t applied to the group maps...  thanks for the help!
evileeyore
member, 208 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 20:40
  • msg #304

Re: RPoL Design Update

bigbadron:
Used to run a game where the subject line basically said something like. "Profit Margin - Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 11:00".  So location, date, and time.

Now that is a good idea.
horus
member, 862 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 22:04
  • msg #305

Re: RPoL Design Update

Raddek:
Shoot, that’s exactly what it was.  I noticed the 1024 limit in the old site, must have missed the change.  Odd that the same restriction isn’t applied to the group maps...  thanks for the help!

{eerie robot voice}
Sorry I cross-circuited the first time, but when you (figuratively) smacked me upside the head it made my vacuum tubes conduct better and I figured it out.
{/eerie robot voice}

All joking aside, glad I could be of some small service.

jase:  I do hope the map size upper limit will eventually revert back to 1024K.  What say you, man?
This message was last edited by the user at 22:04, Thu 29 Aug 2019.
jase
admin, 3709 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 01:43
  • msg #306

Re: RPoL Design Update

We'll leave the subject there for now, so let's put all that to bed (until I decide it bothers me).  Surprised nobody's noticed the change...

horus:
jase:  I do hope the map size upper limit will eventually revert back to 1024K.  What say you, man?

... you reckon I'm going to suddenly invalidate 90% of maps?
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 125 posts
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 01:58
  • msg #307

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Surprised nobody's noticed the change...

SQUIGGLES!

(also, moved message number)

But more importantly, SQUIGGLES! :)
horus
member, 863 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 05:32
  • msg #308

Re: RPoL Design Update

Did notice the message number change, and thank you.  It's looking more like home.
horus
member, 864 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 05:35
  • msg #309

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
horus:
jase:  I do hope the map size upper limit will eventually revert back to 1024K.  What say you, man?

... you reckon I'm going to suddenly invalidate 90% of maps?


Nah.  Figured sorting this out was something you'd get to in the fullness of time... (you gotta be busier than nine kinds o' heck lately.)
jase
admin, 3710 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 08:24
  • msg #310

Re: RPoL Design Update

Maps should work now.  I couldn't see an issue with size but the "main map" never worked while the group maps did (the group maps are loaded via a secure mechanism which worked while the main map just loads via traditional methods... but it was referencing the wrong path due to responsive hackery.

I've also implemented a maximum width for the maps so they don't explode all over the screen (and beyond)... and also pushed in lightboxes while I was at it.  (c;
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 127 posts
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 14:58
  • msg #311

Re: RPoL Design Update

Editing posts (specifically the last post in the thread) seems to occasionally (but not always, and I can't seem to pinpoint specifically when it happens) force a New Message Indicator icon up for the thread on the Forum Menu.

Working as intended?
horus
member, 865 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 21:11
  • msg #312

Re: RPoL Design Update

Maps are working here.  (Thanks again!)
seraphmoon
member, 104 posts
Talks lots. Reads more.
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 21:30
  • msg #313

Re: RPoL Design Update

It seem as if the URL magic-linking is broken on the responsive site; I've noticed it, and a few other folks have mentioned it. It still works on the basic site, though.
horus
member, 866 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 22:17
  • msg #314

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not sure what seraphmoon means by "magic-linking", but I use links of the form:

<a href="URL goes here">Descriptive text goes here</a>

extensively in my games as navigational aids.

Not only do they work in the responsive site, they worked without me having to recode any of them, and now all point to the responsive site targets.  None of my links on the "classic" site were altered by this in any way.

Nicely Done!
bigbadron
moderator, 15790 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 22:51

Re: RPoL Design Update

horus:
Not sure what seraphmoon means by "magic-linking", but I use links of the form:

I suspect that it refers to the fact that if you just copy a URL from the address bar and slap it into a post, it automatically creates a link.
seraphmoon
member, 105 posts
Talks lots. Reads more.
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 02:25
  • msg #316

Re: RPoL Design Update

That's what I meant, the auto-link creation.

Using <a href> tags only works for GMs, according to the help files. I've never tried to use it, myself.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 129 posts
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 02:31
  • msg #317

Re: RPoL Design Update

I just copy-pasted a few URLs into both posts and character descriptions a few minutes ago, and the auto-links worked fine. Are they still not working for you, seraphmoon?
seraphmoon
member, 106 posts
Talks lots. Reads more.
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 03:26
  • msg #318

Re: RPoL Design Update

They are not in posts, PMs, or character sheets, although they are working in character descriptions. I wonder if it's browser- or system-related; I'm using Safari 12.1.2 on OSX 10.14.6. Did a quick test on the mobiles, and it didn't work there either.

I only have the one browser at the moment; can download some others and test them tomorrow.
horus
member, 868 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 06:09
  • msg #319

Re: RPoL Design Update

Using Flashpeak Slimjet, Firefox, and can load several others.  OS is PCLinuxOS 2018.08 updated to the present day.

just playing around in the preview window... using code tags in text below to supress spurious links.

Linking to https://www.rpol.net resulted in a link that contained one character: /
Linking to my superannuated personal web page worked correctly (link not shown by reason of possible infractions against RPoL policies).
https://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=36224&date=1567228195 created a link to the RPoL Development Forum Menu on the responsive site (if using the responsive site to view it...?)

Oddly enough https://r.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=36224&date=1567228195 did not seem to work.
jase
admin, 3713 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 06:19

Re: RPoL Design Update

Autolinking for r.rpol.net is currently not working if I recall correctly, the brevity of the "r." was tripping it up.  Hadn't managed to get a linking routing that wasn't linking too much to date.
nauthiz
subscriber, 625 posts
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 14:06
  • msg #321

Re: RPoL Design Update

I hope I just caught things mid update or something because the default "white" theme is now unusable, and the "dark red" doesn't seem to work on the main page.
jase
admin, 3714 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 14:08

Re: RPoL Design Update

Log out of rpol.net.  The cookies will get confused.  Trying to see if there's a better way with PHP.
nauthiz
subscriber, 626 posts
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 14:35
  • msg #323

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok, so logged out of rpol.net on the desktop.  Logged out and cleared the cookies on the mobile, then logged back in.

The color schemes are working as normal on responsive on desktop.  On mobile on the main page I get this regardless of whether I set it to "white" or "red".

https://i.imgur.com/HVcf7rE.jpg

The other navigation menus are still there, just there's no text for them.  Long pressing on other visible text and choosing "select all" doesn't highlight them the way it does the Main Menu text that remains.  However if I press blindly where I know the menu buttons are, I can still pop open the drop downs, but they're the default blue text on transparent backgrounds.
seraphmoon
member, 107 posts
Talks lots. Reads more.
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 14:47
  • msg #324

Re: RPoL Design Update

Bit of a surprise when I logged in this morning. :)

I didn't have any problems switching back to the white theme, but it wasn't persistent; as in, it'd be white on the main page but not on the game or forum pages. It also wasn't persistent across devices. Relogging everywhere only fixed the main page color, but going into my cookie manager and deleting the rpol cookies fixed everything else. I have to do the same thing to switch back to the dark red theme.

I did notice that with whatever the initial replacement theme was, with the swirly background, the top and side menus were showing up as all black so I had to guess where they were. The dark grey menus on the dark red theme are only a problem on the phone, as the dark icons are hard to distinguish. I don't know if there's a way to make them automatically switch to lighter icons if the background values are set to below a certain value. The new message indicators in the game and forum pages are also hard to distinguish in the dark red theme. On tablet and laptop, I could find the right menus by text color. I like the way the squiggles changed to the purple bars in between posts, though, and the poster-information section in threads pops really well on the phone screen. All the text I've seen pops nicely, too. :)

That makes sense about the URLs. I admit it didn't occur to me that it might be specific to the r. and to try one without; since I was just testing, I used the first one I could think of. :) I'm glad it's not just me!

As usual, all Apple devices over here. I feel like I should put that in my bio so I'm not repeating it every time. :)
jase
admin, 3715 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 15:44

Re: RPoL Design Update

I can't see any issue but until I can investigate further I've disabled the dark red theme.

If you find your colours are a bit off then to back to your scheme selection and select "white" again.
nauthiz
subscriber, 627 posts
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 15:49
  • msg #326

Re: RPoL Design Update

Whatever you did seems to have fixed the issue I was seeing.
seraphmoon
member, 108 posts
OSX10.14; iOS12.4 & 10.3
Talks lots. Reads more.
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 19:36
  • msg #327

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 325):

Seems like there's a fair amount of people who prefer the dark, so I'd leave it up. If the dark menus bother people they can tweak them. :)
Ski-Bird
subscriber, 34 posts
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 22:13
  • msg #328

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've noticed something wonky.  The unread post notification that occurs within a game, the thing that looks like a little comet ... it has been showing up intermittently after reviewing a new post.

I know sometimes checking in on multiple devices can cause similar issues ... but this is from the same computer (and sometimes on the same visit).

Basically when I see the notice & click the thread, on that visit, the notice disappears.  So far, so good.

Sometimes, though, heading back to the game's landing page from elsewhere on the site ... the notification is back even though nothing new has been added to the thread.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 134 posts
Sat 31 Aug 2019
at 23:58
  • msg #329

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Ski-Bird (msg # 328):

I've noticed the same issue. Particularly when I refresh a thread while already in it, to read the new posts, and then go back to the forum menu (even on the same tab). It doesn't happen EVERY time, and I haven't been able to figure out exactly what is causing it to reproduce it consistently, unfortunately. (Edit: For instance, despite having read it and cleared the notice at least five times today, I just received yet another 'new message' icon for the Responsive Site - Appearance thread...and there's not been a new post put up there for almost seven hours now...)

I have also been getting new message icons when I edit my own posts at the end of a thread.

(2nd Edit: Just now, I edited this post. Went back to the forum in the same tab, checked icons - no New Message icon. Left the forum and went to Home, then came back to the Development forum - New Message Icon! Both here AND for the seven-hour old message in the Appearance thread.)
This message was last edited by the user at 00:04, Sun 01 Sept 2019.
jase
admin, 3717 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 1 Sep 2019
at 04:13

Re: RPoL Design Update

Make sure you log out of rpol.net and www.rpol.net completely and then re/log on to r.rpol.net.  If you don't you'll be getting cookies randomly from either rpol.net or r.rpol.net and it's pretty unpredictable.  Once you've done all three steps let me know if you continue to have problems.
nauthiz
subscriber, 628 posts
Sun 1 Sep 2019
at 04:33
  • msg #331

Re: RPoL Design Update

So, the "logout" function on mobile doesn't seem to do anything.  I switched over to the new theme to try it out, and then planned on logging out, clearing cache and cookies, and logging back in to check it out.  No dice.  The "Relog" function seems to be serving the same purpose however.

After selecting the dark red theme, and having my User Preference page change color, Relogging out, clearing cookies and cache on mobile, then logging back in, the home/main page is still "white".

Everything else on mobile seems to be working with the new color scheme.  It also changed on the desktop after switching on mobile, so things are good there.

However, I did try using the "create" option in User Preferences, and "grabbing" the dark red theme colors, and using those to "create" a custom theme.  That did make everything work on all pages as far as I can tell.
jase
admin, 3718 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 1 Sep 2019
at 05:05

Re: RPoL Design Update

Log out of rpol.net, then www.rpol.net (if you ever use it but probably safe to check to be sure) and then finally relog on the responsive site.

Doing it in any other order won't work due to how browsers handle cookie inheritance.  If logout doesn't work then manually clear the cookies from your browser as they must be stuck for some reason.

Autolinking for r.pol.net should now work.
nauthiz
subscriber, 629 posts
Sun 1 Sep 2019
at 05:28
  • msg #333

Re: RPoL Design Update

Logged out of everything, cleared everything again, now good to go it seems.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 136 posts
Mon 2 Sep 2019
at 16:15
  • msg #334

Re: RPoL Design Update

Whoo - colored thread icons! Thanks, jase.

What is the closed thread icon, anyway? I've never been able to make that one out...
Elohvey
member, 91 posts
This is awfully small.
Preposterous!
Mon 2 Sep 2019
at 21:24
  • msg #335

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to nauthiz (msg # 333):

Wooooo hoo!!!

Thanks Jase!
jase
admin, 3722 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 2 Sep 2019
at 21:37

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 334):

Crossed short swords from memory.  They are about 20 years old.  (c;
evileeyore
member, 212 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Mon 2 Sep 2019
at 22:53
  • msg #337

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Crossed short swords from memory.  They are about 20 years old.  (c;

That's what they look like blown waaaaaaaaaaaaaay up.
Mad Mick
member, 958 posts
GURPS beyond measure,
outlander
Tue 3 Sep 2019
at 04:29
  • msg #338

Re: RPoL Design Update

It looks like I am unable to create just a blank character sheet under Character Details on the responsive site. I'm being asked to fill out the field, but I'd like to leave it blank and let the player upload their character sheet.
horus
member, 871 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Tue 3 Sep 2019
at 06:23
  • msg #339

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for full-color icons! They are much more useful now in a dark theme.
horus
member, 872 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Tue 3 Sep 2019
at 06:36
  • msg #340

Re: RPoL Design Update

Mad Mick:
It looks like I am unable to create just a blank character sheet under Character Details on the responsive site. I'm being asked to fill out the field, but I'd like to leave it blank and let the player upload their character sheet.


Aha!  I think I see what your getting at:  opening the Edit Window (Edit Character Sheet), if you delete previously stored data, you cannot completely blank the field and then update.  Right now, the work-around would be to leave one character (it can even be a space).

jase would have to answer the question as to whether this is a bug or a feature...
horus
member, 882 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sat 7 Sep 2019
at 00:44
  • msg #341

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm noticing some odd things on the responsive site regarding Private Messages and rMail:

In Thread Details, the data for whom the message is from is not displayed, but as soon as someone posts to the thread, their name is displayed as the last poster.

In rMail:  If rMail is from a Moderator, instead of displaying Moderator, it displays an actual poster's screen name...  Is that how it used to work?  (Funny... don't remember that.)
Mad Mick
member, 959 posts
GURPS beyond measure,
outlander
Sun 8 Sep 2019
at 21:54
  • msg #342

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to horus (msg # 340):

Yes, that's right. I've started a new game, and I went to Character Details -> Create Character Sheet for my new players so they could upload their sheets. On the current site, this is fine, but on the responsive site, I can't save a blank sheet. Your suggestion about leaving one character there is fine, but it would be nice to leave it blank for the characters to put their own sheets there. (I don't use a standard sheet.)
horus
member, 883 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Mon 9 Sep 2019
at 02:47
  • msg #343

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yeah, it's a work-around.  I leave it at the top-left (first column in Row 1).
Skald
moderator, 878 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 9 Sep 2019
at 05:03
  • msg #344

Re: RPoL Design Update

horus:
In rMail:  If rMail is from a Moderator, instead of displaying Moderator, it displays an actual poster's screen name...  Is that how it used to work?

I was just about to test that by sending horus one rMail when I was logged in as a normal user and a second rMail when I was logged in as a Moderator ... but when I went into rMail on responsive I couldn't find the Compose a new rMail (or the Mark all as Read).

Was using Win 10+Firefox; both latest versions, but checked IE 11 and same problem.


I also noted that Firefox renders the RuBB version, generation time and Main | Forum | Top footer elements all on the same line (left, centre and right of screen respectively), which I like, whereas IE has all three footer elements in the centre of the screen on three lines.
horus
member, 885 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Mon 9 Sep 2019
at 05:15
  • msg #345

Re: RPoL Design Update

Skald:
I was just about to test that by sending horus one rMail when I was logged in as a normal user and a second rMail when I was logged in as a Moderator ... but when I went into rMail on responsive I couldn't find the Compose a new rMail (or the Mark all as Read).


Huh... I was just looking for the Compose rMail button myself.  Small world.
jase
admin, 3729 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 11 Sep 2019
at 14:17

Re: RPoL Design Update

horus:
In Thread Details, the data for whom the message is from is not displayed, but as soon as someone posts to the thread, their name is displayed as the last poster.

Pretty sure it's the same on the current site.  No point having "Posted by jase, 0 replies, last reply by jase".  A) it's redundant and B) it's not actually a reply.

horus:
In rMail:  If rMail is from a Moderator, instead of displaying Moderator, it displays an actual poster's screen name...  Is that how it used to work?  (Funny... don't remember that.)

Yeah it should have the moderator's name.


Fixed the missing compose button for rMail, you can also create empty character sheets again.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 143 posts
Sat 14 Sep 2019
at 16:11
  • msg #347

Re: RPoL Design Update

Are edits (not to the most-recent post, specifically) supposed to be flagging threads with new message icons? I'm still getting some wonky notifications (despite relogging and clearing cookies) but edits seem to be always pushing them - at least for me.

Also, do we have any kind of ETA for putting in the CSS stuff for adjusting the colors of the 'Step 1, Step 2, etc' on the dieroller page? I know you had mentioned a while ago just not having it put in yet, jase, but I'm curious if there's a timeline there. Not being able to see my dieroller is the only thing keeping me from full-on drinking the koolaid and going to the responsive site full-time, now. :)
jase
admin, 3735 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 15 Sep 2019
at 13:01
  • msg #348

Re: RPoL Design Update

Have made a few more tweaks to the layout and adjusted some screens.
  1. Creating a game should now be responsive.
  2. Fixed a fair bit of the rMail layout and also made it more consistent with posting messages in games/forums.
  3. The post info "column" should now have a more sensible maximum width.  Previously it was 25% of the entire screen, which at 1400px meant 350px.  It's now 25% but up to a maximum of 220px, which is wide enough to fit 99.4% of character names plus their portrait.
  4. I've reduced the max page width to 1350px as 1400px was just too wide and looked crazy in some places, will see how this looks after a bit of use.  Despite the 50px reduction you've still got an extra 80px width for the message content due to the reduced maximum post information width.
  5. The above two rely on your browser supporting "calc" in CSS, which 98.2% of desktop browsers do.
  6. Bunch of other tweaks and fixes.  Bit more consistency around, added some more form validations.  Other things, whatever they were!

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 347):

I can't replicate the issue, whether editing the most recent post or an old post.  I've generally only edited the HTML layout so things like cookies shouldn't be affected in any way.

Diceroller I've been thinking about how to compact the layout without making it squashed.  Will do both the colours and layout at the same time.  Next page to fix up I think.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 144 posts
Sun 15 Sep 2019
at 15:12
  • msg #349

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
I can't replicate the issue, whether editing the most recent post or an old post.  I've generally only edited the HTML layout so things like cookies shouldn't be affected in any way.

I'll chalk it up to my browser being possessed or something, then, and keep seeing if I can get it to reliably replicate. Thanks for looking.
jase
admin, 3736 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 18 Sep 2019
at 13:41
  • msg #350

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
Also, do we have any kind of ETA for putting in the CSS stuff for adjusting the colors of the 'Step 1, Step 2, etc' on the dieroller page?

Update your custom theme, you should then get the colours for the die roller.  Compacted the layout a few days ago.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 147 posts
Wed 18 Sep 2019
at 15:48
  • msg #351

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yay! Thanks, jase!

*moves in full-time*
Escribblings
member, 37 posts
Wed 18 Sep 2019
at 19:29
  • msg #352

Re: RPoL Design Update

I posted this on the asthetics thread...

escribblings:
Don't know if it's just me...

I have a Samsung Note 10+.  This has curved screen edges.

Would there be a possiblity of a couple of pixels of padding on the left and right of the page?

It's going right to the edge, round the curve, and although it isn't, it feels like it's cutting a bit off and I constantly have the urge to scroll, where no scroll is available.


I raise this again because today I had a further issue.

The text entry box also goes right to the edge, round the curve of the screen.

Today I had a hell of a job trying to get the cursor to the end of the line with my finger...

Managed it by rotating the phone in the end, but it's a nuisance.

So if you could add some side padding, it would be really appreciated.
nauthiz
subscriber, 632 posts
Wed 18 Sep 2019
at 23:57
  • msg #353

Re: RPoL Design Update

As a workaround for the moment, if you're using the Samsung default keyboard you might look into enabling "cursor control".

Google's keyboard has a similar feature which I find very helpful on RPoL.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 157 posts
Wed 2 Oct 2019
at 03:19
  • msg #354

Re: RPoL Design Update

Noticed a problem with viewing character descriptions that have pictures in them tonight when on a phone (or when the site is narrowed all the way down on a desktop). Actually, a pair of problems.

Problem #1: Photos put in where the image is the very first thing at the top of the description, are getting shifted down below the character portrait (as I would expect them to be if they're too wide to display next to it, since they're the very first thing in the description), BUT they are getting the first five lines of text (what normally appears next to the portrait) above them and the rest of the text below them. Essentially, they're "splitting" the text, instead of appearing all before it as I would expect, since the image source tag is entirely before the text.

I realize, upon going back to the old site and checking, that the same thing happens when you size down a browser window on it. I had never noticed this before because it doesn't do that when viewed on my phone, and you'd have to pretty deliberately narrow your browser all the way - but it still feels like it would look a lot better if the image stayed by itself at the top and had all of the text follow it, IF it's the first thing in the description window, instead of being in the middle of the text when the window is narrow. Stat blocks next to portraits look kind of... well, cruddy, when they're broken up. (Edit: This happens with both right- and left-aligned photos. At first I thought it was only the right ones, but alas, it isn't.)

Problem #2: Wide photos in a description prevent it from narrowing to the proper size (it will only go as narrow as the widest image), and results in having some of the text "hanging out" to the right, over the normally-empty space beneath the Forum and Account menus. This doesn't happen in a regular thread - the same image posted in a thread gets resized to fit the thread-content portion of the window if the window narrows beyond the image's normal size. (On the plus side, this at least keeps photos normally in the upper right corner from splitting the stat blocks, so there's that... but it does make it pretty impossible to read, especially if using a theme where the text block background isn't the same as the background-background.)

Not sure if there's any fix to the first one, since it does that on live too, unless there's a way to force the site to keep whatever is entered first at the top no matter the window width, but the second one feels like maybe there's a fix, since wide pictures don't cause the same problem in actual threads? Maybe? *fingers crossed*

Edit: Took me a bit to find a description in one of my games that didn't have a photo, but those don't seem to be scaling to fit the smaller screen window well, either. Images in a description that are narrow (not the ones causing Problem #2) are scaling to fit my phone screen, and forcing all the accompanying description text to fit the screen as well - just like it would in a game thread (which looks, well, normal). Descriptions without any image at all are leaving a swath of border around the text (about 1/2 of an inch on each side on my phone, and my screen is small) and forcing all of the description text into a narrow column down the middle. The narrow line around the description box is still there, reining it in just like the thread-text window in a thread, but unlike in the threads (which push that left-hand and right-hand space to the top and bottom when the screen is narrow), that space is never getting pushed away so that the actual information box can fill the screen.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:25, Wed 02 Oct 2019.
Mittens
member, 2 posts
bio pt 1
bio pt 2
Fri 4 Oct 2019
at 05:03
  • msg #355

Re: RPoL Design Update

Looking great so far!  Thumbs up for the bigger font and un-cluttered layout!

Dark theme is very important to me due to the eye strain that white theme causes.  This was the very fist thing I tried out.  It worked everywhere except the main page.  But logging out of rpol.net and re-logging r.rpol.net fixed that.  Yay!  Thanks again for these great improvements for the visually impaired!  Please keep it up!  <3
Zag24
supporter, 600 posts
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 03:54
  • msg #356

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've been away from RPoL for a few years, and been back for about a month.  I've been using the new site since returning and I wanted to give it a good trial before commenting.

Generally, I like the clean lines.  I personally don't care much about responsiveness because I'm only on RPoL on full sized computers, but I do understand that not everyone is at their screens as much as I am.  I think you've done a great job of allowing for responsiveness without giving up much when it isn't needed.

One bit I do miss from the other site is how the controls stayed on the screen all the time.  If I'm scrolling through a thread on Community Chat and decide I'm not interested, I have to scroll back to the top of the screen to get to the Home for Forum buttons (if I'm a few screens in and the back button doesn't make sense).  I realize that having dedicated real estate like that is anathema to responsive design that will work on small screens.  I just wanted to make sure that the dissenting opinion is out there.  If the consensus is for androids and iPhones, then I'm happy to bow to the majority.
steelsmiter
member, 2058 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 04:01
  • msg #357

Re: RPoL Design Update

Zag24:
One bit I do miss from the other site is how the controls stayed on the screen all the time.  If I'm scrolling through a thread on Community Chat and decide I'm not interested, I have to scroll back to the top of the screen to get to the Home for Forum buttons (if I'm a few screens in and the back button doesn't make sense).

Same. I've seen other sites use a floating up/down arrow off to the side that vanishes after a moment of scrolling. I really like those.


Spoiler for Necessitated longer reply that was basically irrelevant: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
And I suppose since I'm getting a warning about not quoting so much text for such a short reply I better go ahead and extend it a little by saying my favorite design I've seen in a while is Blue Moon Roleplaying (though I'm not especially happy with the blue color scheme). Not that it's relevant, but... ya know... a longer reply.

This message was last edited by the user at 04:02, Mon 14 Oct 2019.
MythZarya
member, 30 posts
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 07:40
  • msg #358

Re: RPoL Design Update


Ditto on the sidebar.

On the original interface (within a game), the Menu bar is always visible no matter how far down the page I scroll. I frequently right-click on a Menu item at the top of the screen and open in a new tab, so that I can stay right where I'm at on the first tab/screen.

On the new interface this isn't possible. The Menu items aren't visible when I scroll down the page. I would prefer (as steelsmiter mentioned) a 'floating' or 'scrolling' sidebar.
Raddek
supporter, 16 posts
Tue 15 Oct 2019
at 16:46
  • msg #359

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm sure it's on your list Jase, but all of the change portrait pages seem to have a fixed width in the responsive site that isn't lined up with the width of the actual 8x4 row of portraits.  It makes more of a difference on an actual computer where the portraits actually overlap the menus on the right side.  The site as viewed on a mobile device just seems to have odd coloring (half grey half white) since the menus are repositioned.
flakeytheleper
member, 2 posts
Wed 30 Oct 2019
at 12:46
  • msg #360

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to MythZarya (msg # 358):

I would love to have that right bar scroll as you move down the page.

Additionally, if this is possible, I would love to have the unread messages highlighted and made it so you automatically are placed at the location of your oldest unread post.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 165 posts
Sat 2 Nov 2019
at 18:33
  • msg #361

Issue with new message warning before posting?

You know how there's the warning that comes up when you hit post if a new message has been posted to a thread (if one came up while you were in the writing window, so RPoL doesn't think you've seen it) that forces you to acknowledge it before you submit your post?

I've always gotten that on the old site, even when I preview my own post (which is good, because the most recent post in the thread isn't even viewable on the screen if the previewed post is of any decent length). On the responsive site, I am NOT getting that warning if I have previewed the post before hitting submit.
horus
member, 919 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Tue 5 Nov 2019
at 07:07
  • msg #362

Game Creation

Does anyone else have issues trying to create new games on the new site?

See:  link to a message in another game , please.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 175 posts
Sun 15 Dec 2019
at 19:31
  • msg #363

'Preview As' bugs

Found a few bugs related to 'Preview As'.

When I preview a post as the posting character, and only as the posting character, everything works properly.

1) I have no option to preview the post as another character that I control that has access to whatever Group the thread that the post is being made is in. I have the option to preview the post as characters I control that do not have access to the Group, and as every other character regardless of their Group access.

2) If I preview a post as a character that I don't control (with or without access to the Group), the post immediately turns itself a PM sent to any character I do control that has access to the Group, INSTEAD of posting it in the proper thread location. WITHOUT any warning of the little 'private' tag appearing under the posting character's name in the upper lefthand during the preview.

2a) If I hit the lower 'Preview' option (the one down by 'Post Message') again after #2, the 'private' warning tag under the posting character's name returns, but it remains a PM that wants to be sent to the characters I control that have access to the Group.

2b) If I attempt to 'Preview As' again, with a character that I do not control (with or without access to the Group), it turns the post into a PM to every character that I do control, with or without access to the Group.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:33, Sun 15 Dec 2019.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 176 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 04:36
  • msg #364

Private to Language Group not working?

Not sure if this is a known issue or not. I didn't recall seeing it.

Language groups (that appear scrambled to those without the language, clear to those with it) seem to be working on responsive.

Private TO Language Group seems to NOT be working on responsive. No indicator that there was a private line there that a character should be able to see, or anything - just nothing at all, when the private to language group is used.

It looks like it's being used properly to the writer, even when previewing as another character that should be able to read the language, but the line is entirely absent on the viewer's end once it's posted - and yes, I double-checked group and language access and all that.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:40, Tue 17 Dec 2019.
jase
admin, 3738 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 13:00

Re: RPoL Design Update

To cut down on this message here's what I've fixed;

  • Added slight left/right margin to mobile view, did that about three months ago.
  • Images in descriptions are now lightboxes (also spotted that lightboxes didn't work in message previews so fixed that too).
  • Fixed game creation.
  • Fixed previewing as someone else making it a weird private message.
  • Fixed portrait selection (browsing and searching).


I've had a little break so here's hoping I actually fixed things!  (c;

More verbose answers for things I haven't fixed...

SunRuanEr:
Noticed a problem with viewing character descriptions that have pictures in them tonight when on a phone (or when the site is narrowed all the way down on a desktop). Actually, a pair of problems.

(Edit: This happens with both right- and left-aligned photos. At first I thought it was only the right ones, but alas, it isn't.)

Ah, there's the problem.  Couldn't replicate it at first until I saw the last bit.  What you're seeing is a byproduct of floating images.

The character portrait is floated left, floating another image will cause some weirdness.

Off the top of my head the only way I can think of easily fixing it would be to change the layout of the screen.  Break out the portrait into a larger "header" area.

o    o
    ..
\___/
Bob the Builder
- Player
- 123 posts
Main description starts here ..........

But that kind of gets away from the point of having the portrait there in the first place.

Otherwise the user-side fix would be to put some text first, enough to have the text go below the portrait at the widest view.



SunRuanEr:
You know how there's the warning that comes up when you hit post if a new message has been posted to a thread (if one came up while you were in the writing window, so RPoL doesn't think you've seen it) that forces you to acknowledge it before you submit your post?

I've always gotten that on the old site, even when I preview my own post (which is good, because the most recent post in the thread isn't even viewable on the screen if the previewed post is of any decent length). On the responsive site, I am NOT getting that warning if I have previewed the post before hitting submit.

I thought if you previewed (or posted) after another message had been added it gave you that warning but then it disappeared after.



Zag24:
One bit I do miss from the other site is how the controls stayed on the screen all the time.

I've seen a few around, invariably relying on javascript if I recall.  It (or a up/down arrow) is on the "refinement" to-do list.



SunRuanEr:
Found a few bugs related to 'Preview As'.

When I preview a post as the posting character, and only as the posting character, everything works properly.

1) I have no option to preview the post as another character that I control that has access to whatever Group the thread that the post is being made is in. I have the option to preview the post as characters I control that do not have access to the Group, and as every other character regardless of their Group access.

Can't see the point in needing to do this, none of your other characters should be in the list except those tagged as a player.


SunRuanEr:
Private TO Language Group seems to NOT be working on responsive. No indicator that there was a private line there that a character should be able to see, or anything - just nothing at all, when the private to language group is used.

I can't replicate that problem.  Are you using "group" in the address?  e.g. "Private to group Elvish"?

Also don't forget part of the notice when previewing as someone else -- As a player previewing as another all private/secret lines to groups will be hidden and all languages will be scrambled regardless of the recipient -- this is deliberate otherwise you could find out who's in the private groups.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 177 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 13:27
  • msg #366

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for the fixes, Jase! For the other stuff...

jase:
SunRuanEr:
You know how there's the warning that comes up when you hit post if a new message has been posted to a thread (if one came up while you were in the writing window, so RPoL doesn't think you've seen it) that forces you to acknowledge it before you submit your post?

I've always gotten that on the old site, even when I preview my own post (which is good, because the most recent post in the thread isn't even viewable on the screen if the previewed post is of any decent length). On the responsive site, I am NOT getting that warning if I have previewed the post before hitting submit.

I thought if you previewed (or posted) after another message had been added it gave you that warning but then it disappeared after.

I'm used to seeing the warning come up at the top of the screen when I preview a post, or go to add a post, and there's been a new post posted between the time that I opened the posting window and when I previewed/hit post. It -does- disappear after you acknowledge that the warning is there. The issue is that on responsive, the warning isn't coming up at all when you preview your post (it does come up if you go straight to 'post' without previewing, but if you preview before you post there's no indicator.)


quote:
SunRuanEr:
1) I have no option to preview the post as another character that I control that has access to whatever Group the thread that the post is being made is in. I have the option to preview the post as characters I control that do not have access to the Group, and as every other character regardless of their Group access.

Can't see the point in needing to do this, none of your other characters should be in the list except those tagged as a player.

There's not one, I just noticed the idiosyncrasy when checking to replicate the issue that was forcing posts to become PMs. Especially because the preview list included some of my controlled characters (tagged as player or otherwise) but not all of them. Wasn't sure if it was somehow related to the forced-PM issue, so I figured I'd mention it.

Specifically because I was being given the preview option for characters that didn't have access to the thread group where the post was being made (and ergo shouldn't be able to see it at all), but not for ones that did have access to the group being posted in. It just seemed... strange. Not an issue, though, since you fixed the funky forced-PM issue. :)

quote:
SunRuanEr:
Private TO Language Group seems to NOT be working on responsive. No indicator that there was a private line there that a character should be able to see, or anything - just nothing at all, when the private to language group is used.

I can't replicate that problem.  Are you using "group" in the address?  e.g. "Private to group Elvish"?


I'm using the 'Insert a Private Line > Private to group (language>' option from the drop-down selector. I don't trust myself to write those by hand!

If I use the 'The Language group' option, where text appears but is scrambled if you don't have the language, the entered text appears. If I use the 'Private to group <language>' option, that should only display to the characters that have the language, nothing appears at all for them even when it should. This is only on responsive, it works on live.

quote:
Also don't forget part of the notice when previewing as someone else -- As a player previewing as another all private/secret lines to groups will be hidden and all languages will be scrambled regardless of the recipient -- this is deliberate otherwise you could find out who's in the private groups.

Fair point, I had forgotten that part. :)

Point was, though, that there's no indicator to the author of the post that their intended recipients can't see the private lines. On their end, the 'Private to group <language>' text appears as it was written. It's just not showing up on the other end. (Which is totes working as intended, obviously, just clarifying that the borking is ONLY on the recipient's end) It's almost impossible to tell unless you have someone go 'hey, didn't you catch that I said this?' only to find that there's nothing there to catch. Or, in my case, my spouse wrote a post that I knew had some language lines in it that my character should have been able to read, but when I went to look at it later on my machine there were no visible language lines... so we started digging. I'm not sure why it won't replicate for you, because we can reproduce the error every time. (and can double-check on live to verify that over there, it's working properly)
This message was last edited by the user at 13:36, Tue 17 Dec 2019.
jase
admin, 3739 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 23:13

Re: RPoL Design Update

Managed to replicate the private to group issue and then tracked down the bug.  Ironically the part that was hiding it when previewing as someone else was also hiding it whenever you were viewing it as well (unless you were a GM).

Will have to take a look at the others when I've got more time.

Thanks (to all!) for reporting all the bugs.  Clearly I can't catch 'em all!
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 178 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 23:33
  • msg #368

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yay, it's fixed! I was just running here to jump around excitedly about that!

Thanks a bundle, jase! :)
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 198 posts
Sun 2 Feb 2020
at 01:04
  • msg #369

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but it seems that embedded links to Game Maps don't work across both live and responsive sites.

When an embedded direct link to a Game Map is posted using the live site, the embed of the link is broken if viewed on responsive. Copy-pasting the link takes me to the map on live, which is what I suspect is breaking the embed. Not sure if it breaks if done the other way 'round, too, or if embedded links to other things are broken as well. I just happened to notice it with the Game Maps. Non-embedded links work just fine.
Raddek
supporter, 17 posts
Fri 21 Feb 2020
at 15:28
  • msg #370

Re: RPoL Design Update

Something odd that I've noticed recently is that I'm getting Not Secure notifications on the https:// sites both for responsive and live sites.  It is only here and there:  for example the main page and my game page does not show the advisory as soon as I go into one of the internal threads or the dice roller it does.  This may just be a Chrome thing, as I don't seem to have the same problem on Safari, though I haven't tried Edge or any other browser.
theseeker
member, 24 posts
Mon 24 Feb 2020
at 05:23
  • msg #371

Re: RPoL Design Update

Copy/paste the address on the displayed page when that happens.  Guessing that it will be http:// instead of https://.  Likely some links still hanging around that have not been converted to https.  Most links on the site will be relative (no http or https prefix), and will just use the same as the page the link is on.  But if some link is using the full url, including http, then that page, AND all pages that it links to using relative urls will then become insecure.  So need to find the *first* page the notification occurs on.  Jase might be able to locate it using a global search across the source for the whole site, looking for `http:`.  But it might be hiding in some generated code that gets included.

Can be fixed somewhat globally by setting the server to automatically and silently convert all incoming http requests to https.
Raddek
supporter, 19 posts
Sat 7 Mar 2020
at 03:23
  • msg #372

Re: RPoL Design Update

Sorry, been a little bit since I checked this thread.  I took a look at the https: switching randomly to http: and it seems like that isn't the problem.

As an example:  my character details page is showing not secure with a web address of: https://r.rpol.net/usermodules/profile.cgi?gi=58029 (obviously you won't be able to get there)

Likewise, some of my game threads are showing not secure like the one here: https://r.rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=58029&ti=49&date=1583550054

Oddly though, it makes a difference as to whether or not I am logged in.  If I copy paste the web address logged out, it shows secure, but logged in it shows not secure with both chrome and safari.
theseeker
member, 27 posts
Sat 7 Mar 2020
at 05:25
  • msg #373

Re: RPoL Design Update

That description probably means that the pages reporting not secure contain content that is using an http: link.  Likely culprit is an image.  Do you have an embedded profile image?  If the link to that is http: instead of https:, the whole containing page is marked as not secure.  Though some browsers, some versions, would show a slightly different message for that case, saying something about 'partially' not secure.

If you can not see the actual link, some browser / web developer tools will let you see every connection made while loading a page, and show whether the connection was secure or not.  It could also be a css or javascript file that is being loaded with the page.  I don't think a tutorial on web developer tools is appropriate here though.  I use Firefox tools mostly.  Chrome (at least) has similar.
Raddek
supporter, 20 posts
Sat 7 Mar 2020
at 12:53
  • msg #374

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yup, you nailed it.  Thanks for the help.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 237 posts
Sat 4 Apr 2020
at 00:58
  • msg #375

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not sure if it's a Known Issue or not (I don't recall seeing it, but it's been a while), but Updating language groups on responsive doesn't seem to be sticking. Like, you check the box to add the language to the character, and then go hit 'Update', but the update doesn't take and the language group doesn't get added. (Tried this several times, so I know it wasn't a case of misclicking.)

Works fine on live.
muriwo
member, 97 posts
Sun 5 Apr 2020
at 10:05
  • msg #376

Feature Request: Responsive Site: Browser Notifications

[Could not find any way to search if this has already been requested - if it has, apologies].

Request: r.rpol.net can activate Browser Notifications for new Posts/PMs.   The user would activate this in his Preferences menu... then the site would ask the browser, which would ask the user for permission to enable such notifications.
At a basic level of implementation, there would either be notifications... or not.    At a more advanced level, the Preferences could be more fine-grained, for instance:
 - New Post in a Game I peruse
 - New Post in a Game I GM
 - New PM
 - New Rmail

Reason: RPOL has had the option to give email notifications, for many years.   I switched it off eons ago because I already get far too many emails from non-RPOL sources, and these notifications just add to the burden.    Whereas a browser notification lets me know something is happening if I am on my computer.   If I am not, it doesn't hassle me.

N.B. I don't know how difficult this is to implement from a scripting point of view.  Given that the new responsive site is a "ground-up rewrite", I just though that this feature might be easier to implement there.
Skald
moderator, 892 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 5 Apr 2020
at 10:34
  • msg #377

Feature Request: Responsive Site: Browser Notifications

Just a thought ... is what you're asking for in anyway similar to RSS feeds ?  The old site has them, and it seems they're available on the new responsive site too (I don't use them, so can't attest to whether they're up and running on responsive yet, but I don't know there would have been much of a change in that functionality betwixt old and new).

Help file: /help/content.cgi?t=faqs&page=rssfeeds

And you can find the codes under Preferences | View your personal feeds
muriwo
member, 98 posts
Sun 5 Apr 2020
at 11:54
  • msg #378

Feature Request: Responsive Site: Browser Notifications

Thanks Skald, I believe that could work.

I have added a Feed Reader extension with Browser Notification to my browser, and then added the RPOL RSS feed URL to that.   Will see how it goes... looks like it will work.

I believe that for all users, a direct notification capacity might still be easier.   But certainly, not a high priority.
Zag24
supporter, 607 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2020
at 14:34
  • msg #379

Feature Request: Responsive Site: Browser Notifications

A really minor feature request:  After performing "Mark all as read" in a forum, do a window.history.popState() so that the back button does not just leave you in the forum, but instead returns to Home.
jase
admin, 3744 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 3 Jun 2020
at 12:21

Re: RPoL Design Update

After quite the delay I've copied in some updates.  What I can remember I've done is as follows;

  • Increased the "medium" wrap point to 960px (up from 800).  Small is up to 695px, medium up to 960 pixels.  In a nutshell this means that the side navigation menu will move out the way under 961 pixels wide and small (very narrow width) navigation options will kick in under 696 pixels.
  • Changed all of the logon and account registration pages (logon.cgi) to be responsive.
  • Changed the Wanted - Players search box to be responsive.
  • Changed a few lines in index.php using tables to div/responsive.
  • Changed even more in gameinfo.php.
  • Fixed layout when there was no side menu (namely the registration screens).
  • Changed some of the CSS "id" selectors to "class" to allow for better inheritance.
  • Changed profile (profile.cgi) screens to div/responsive.
  • Redid the portrait searching screen as a result/by-product of this.  The page unfortunately ends up being longer but hopefully much less cluttered and confusing… and though it's great when it happens I don’t think "I've managed to cram it all on one page" should be a design goal.  (c;
  • Added Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition to the dice roller.
  • Fixed updating of private groups.
  • Fixed updating of lurkers.
  • Fixed edit/delete links for private threads.
  • Edit:  Added Mayfair Exponential Game System to the dice roller.

If you're using a custom theme please update it.

Remember that the new roller options are only for those using the responsive site.
This message was last edited by the user at 10:27, Fri 05 June 2020.
Jhaelan
member, 240 posts
Prefers roles to rolls
Based in UTC+1
Wed 3 Jun 2020
at 12:27
  • msg #381

Re: RPoL Design Update

Great work, @jase! Thanks
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 264 posts
Wed 3 Jun 2020
at 13:36
  • msg #382

Re: RPoL Design Update

Awesome work, Jase! Thanks!

One question, though:
quote:
[*] Fixed edit/delete links for private threads.


What is this? I had thought upon first reading it that it was related to the issue I had mentioned a month or so back over in Technical Discussions about being unable to delete some PMs, but that issue is still happening.
jase
admin, 3748 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 3 Jun 2020
at 14:54

Re: RPoL Design Update

Edit issue was this one -- link to a message in this forum

Also fixed the "This thread Thread closed" issue for closed threads.
Zag24
supporter, 632 posts
Wed 3 Jun 2020
at 15:31
  • msg #384

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
[*] Fixed updating of private groups.
[*] Fixed edit/delete links for private threads.[/list]

Confirm fixed!

Thanks, jase!  You're awesome, as always, and we deeply appreciate it.
nauthiz
subscriber, 651 posts
Sat 6 Jun 2020
at 02:24
  • msg #385

Re: RPoL Design Update

So the "Subscribe to support RPoL and receive added perks!" link on the responsive site doesn't seem to work.

Not sure if that's inhibited anyone from actually subscribing as it were, but it certainly adds a hurdle.
jase
admin, 3752 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 6 Jun 2020
at 03:17

Re: RPoL Design Update

Wow, thanks.  Been that way for about 11 months I figure.  Guess it's not being heavily utilised!  (c;
locojedi
member, 186 posts
Mon 8 Jun 2020
at 19:20
  • msg #387

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yeah, I'd tried the link a while ago and just figured you didn't have it working on purpose... shoulda said something I guess.
nauthiz
subscriber, 654 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 03:57
  • msg #388

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm not sure how much work has been done on the "Browse/Search Games" section yet.

However it's currently a trap.  Once you actually go to the search page, the left/top navigation links stay the same as when you're on the main page (Wiki News Jump Chat rMail rPoll FAQs Help) instead of changing to the in game/forum set (Home Jump Chat rMail rPoll FAQs Help).

So you end up with the only obvious way to navigate back to the main page being using the back button on the browser.
Skald
moderator, 903 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 13:16
  • msg #389

Re: RPoL Design Update

Clicking on the impossible cube logo top right of the page will always take you back to the main menu - I agree that's not obvious, though.  :>
jase
admin, 3758 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 13:35
  • msg #390

Re: RPoL Design Update

Cube would be the way to go, but have added a close search link.
Samus Aran
member, 444 posts
Author, game designer
Part-time Metroid fighter
Thu 2 Jul 2020
at 05:32
  • msg #391

Re: RPoL Design Update

So, I'm having a problem with lots of threads that are read continually popping up as unread, and things not updating properly like that.
nauthiz
subscriber, 660 posts
Thu 2 Jul 2020
at 06:00
  • msg #392

Re: RPoL Design Update

Are you using RPoL on multiple devices, or switching between the responsive and classic site?

Typically that's a symptom of a cookie update issue.

It most often happens when switching between devices, but if you're only on one, you might try logging out of RPoL, then clearing your cookies, and logging back in.
Samus Aran
member, 445 posts
Author, game designer
Part-time Metroid fighter
Thu 2 Jul 2020
at 06:01
  • msg #393

Re: RPoL Design Update

I have it on my phone, though I don't use them both at once. Though I could log out of the mobile version. Hope that helps, and thanks.

Yeah, still happening. I may clear the cookies and see if that helps.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:11, Thu 02 July 2020.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 287 posts
Thu 2 Jul 2020
at 16:02
  • msg #394

Re: RPoL Design Update

I know that every time I go to my phone, it likes to show me that pretty much every thread that's had a post since I last looked at the site on my phone, is unread. Ditto when I go back to the desktop, but only with regards to PMs - if I checked them on my phone, that is.

I've just gotten used to it, it's been doing it so long. I've trained myself to actually look at the date/name for the last post that it thinks I haven't read, right after a switch.
accident
member, 5 posts
Mon 27 Jul 2020
at 17:41
  • msg #395

Re: RPoL Design Update

Caught a glitch: after a table in one of my threads, the entire thread after that is using a monospaced font, almost as if there were a missing closing tag.  Checked the same thread in the non-responsive site, no issue there.

Screenshot: https://ibb.co/FnbHRSf
Harley Quinn
member, 42 posts
Tue 28 Jul 2020
at 02:30
  • msg #396

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to accident (msg # 395):

Weird but kinda cool.
jase
admin, 3767 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 29 Jul 2020
at 02:55

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to accident (msg # 395):

Looks like a closing tag is missing.  Depending on the encapsulating tags, and a bunch of other wotnot, if you miss a closing tag it'll either carry on longer than it should or be forcibly closed by something else.  The two different designs are closing the tag at different locations.

If you could rMail me a link to the thread that'd be great.
RPGuru92
member, 185 posts
Sat 1 Aug 2020
at 23:07
  • msg #398

Re: RPoL Design Update

This may be redundant but why does the initial page not follow the preference's color scheme?
nauthiz
subscriber, 664 posts
Sat 1 Aug 2020
at 23:47
  • msg #399

Re: RPoL Design Update

Might check message 33 in this thread

link to a message in this forum
IamJacksUsername
member, 15 posts
Any Serenity RPG games?
South Africa, Cape Town
Tue 4 Aug 2020
at 10:33
  • msg #400

Re: RPoL Design Update

From a quick look, I'm really impressed by the new interface, because almost all other recent sites that have made UI changes have made those sites less useful and more user-hostile, e.g. the horrific new BGG pages, and RPGG where they broke backward compatibility for old browsers/phones so that I couldn't use the dice anymore - which brought me to Rpol.

I see the anchor bug's fixed in the new UI, and the new color scheme for links on the right is a nice improvement.

The only small thing I don't like personally is all the extra whitespace, but it's not a problem, and I'll happily use the beta from now on.

Many thanks jase.

Edit to add: Is there an option to have the email notifications use r.rpol.net links?
Edit to strike previous edit: the cast page hides info until you hover - back to the old UI.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:58, Tue 04 Aug 2020.
Zag24
supporter, 648 posts
Tue 4 Aug 2020
at 15:14
  • msg #401

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've been using nothing but the responsive site for months, now, and I find I prefer it.  However, I do have to agree with IamJacksUsername, that I would prefer the old behavior on the Cast page.  I supposed that the current behavior works better for phone users, but since I'm almost always on my giant screen, I would much rather not have to hover up and down to see all the info.  My responsive CSS skills are not good enough to know if there is a way to do the same collapse-only-if-needed tricks with vertical space as we do with horizontal space.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 303 posts
Tue 4 Aug 2020
at 15:27
  • msg #402

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Zag24 (msg # 401):

I think in this thread, but maybe in the other one (I can't remember), a suggestion was made for a 'Show All' option for GMs for the cast page, or a switching of the Groups column for a Last Login so that the Last Login was always visible. (Or both - both would be great!)

I know that when I'm looking at people, Last Login is the bit of data that I'm actually looking for most often, and it's the one that I want to be able to skim the entire cast and see at a glance. It's okay to have to mouse over someone to access the rMail or PM link, I feel, because those options are both accessible elsewhere and not ones that I really need to have always viewable. Ditto for the Description link, since it really only matters in the case of wanting to look at a portrait selection on a character without anything in their description block (because you can't click on their name if there's no written description, but you can click on the Description link to see it).

I've gotten used to the cast page being the way it is, so I can't really say I -want- it to go back, certainly not on the player-viewable side (if anything as a player, I'd prefer the ability to just shut the expanding OFF entirely because the ripple effect when I'm scrolling down drives me batty), but I do think that it needs some tweaks for ease of use for GMs.
Zag24
supporter, 649 posts
Tue 4 Aug 2020
at 15:52
  • msg #403

Re: RPoL Design Update

I totally agree that 'last game login' and 'last post' are the two data points I am usually interested in when I visit that page.  While we're begging for features, I supposed that I'd also love to be able to sort by those columns.  But I don't run big games so that isn't all that important to me.

I occasionally use it to double check the groups, and sometimes I'm curious about the number of posts, but those are definitely secondary.  The links for description, etc. I only use if I happen to be in there at the time I want to access those.

I've never used the page in a game where I'm just a player.  I don't even think I was aware it was even a thing players could access.
Nathanael Lockeford
member, 14 posts
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 17:12
  • msg #404

Re: RPoL Design Update

Howdy,

Recently been trying out the responsive site again and found a thing. It may have been addressed before but I haven't been super active in the forums so apologies if it's a duplicate issue. Nor am I great at technical jargon so bare with my description of things. Thank you.

On my phone (it's an Android if that matters), when clicking "Change Portrait" from the Character Details page it takes me to the correct page, where it displays the categories, but the layout (I think?) is kinda screwy. Basically it zooms in and only shows some of the text and link options unless I pinch and zoom out but the background looks like it was reduced to fit the format of my screen.

So, background and borders and whatnot resized correctly but the text overflows...

I grabbed some screenshots but wasn't sure if I should post them here or send an rMail to someone.

Let me know how to better follow up on this or if it's been addressed already.

Thank you and regards,
Nathanael
jase
admin, 3769 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 04:24

Re: RPoL Design Update

Regarding the cast list -- I can shuffle around the details shown depending on what's important to GMs/players.  I do like hiding some of the information as it's not all needed and does make it cleaner, e.g. the "Send: rMail | Private Msg | View: Description | Profile" links.

As for the profile selection screen, I have modernised the page (removed tables, used divs instead) but it's still too wide for the page, thus the side-scrolling you're seeing.  Going to have to figure out how to make that responsive, it won't be fun.
The Stray
member, 120 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Sun 16 Aug 2020
at 22:10
  • msg #406

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm using the responsive site, and my players are telling me they can see some of the Secret Rolls from the die roller. It seems to have started only from the last couple days...older Secret Rolls are still invisible.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 305 posts
Sun 16 Aug 2020
at 22:42
  • msg #407

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to The Stray (msg # 406):

What specific die rolls are you using? (Size of dice, manual or drop-down, show dice, keep all, drop lowest, etc?) Are you rolling as GM, or on behalf of a character, or as a character? Are your players using the responsive site, or the old site? You say they can see some of the rolls, which implies not all - is there some commonality among the rolls they can see?

I'm trying to recreate this, and can't seem to do it so far, but I've only checked a few of the dice options.
The Stray
member, 121 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Mon 17 Aug 2020
at 03:59
  • msg #408

Re: RPoL Design Update

quote:
What specific die rolls are you using? (Size of dice, manual or drop-down, show dice, keep all, drop lowest, etc?) Are you rolling as GM, or on behalf of a character, or as a character? Are your players using the responsive site, or the old site? You say they can see some of the rolls, which implies not all - is there some commonality among the rolls they can see?

I'm trying to recreate this, and can't seem to do it so far, but I've only checked a few of the dice options.


  • I'm using the World of Darkness (nWoD) system in this game.
  • The rolls that were affected, as far as I can tell, were as a specific NPC and on behalf of an NPC (using the Type Character Name box)
  • My players are using a mix of both, as far as I know. I can check with them. I'm making these rolls on the responsive site.
  • Yes, they seem to be able to see the Secret Rolls made as of 10:22, Yesterday. Secret Rolls before then are still hidden, according to a log one of the players posted for me, except for a single roll made 00:30, Sun 09 Aug. The NPCs in question were different, and one used the Type Character Name box while the other did not.
  • Not all the Secret Rolls made in this time frame are visible. It seems to be 3 specific rolls out of 11 Secret Rolls I've made in this timeframe.
  • The times are also incorrect between what the Player sees and when I actually rolled. I don't know what that's about.


What My Players See:

22:40, Today: Harry Ashton failed (no successes) using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 7,2,6,6,4.  Resolve+Wyrd.

17:05, Yesterday: RUBB::secret 338590=Jill Brittles failed (no successes) using 1d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD, Chance Die system with a target of 10, rerolling 10s.  Clarity Attack.

15:55, Yesterday: Hope Logan rolled 2 successes using 4d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 10(+9),3,1,4.  lol Resolve + Composure.

10:22, Yesterday: RUBB::secret The Stray, for the NPC Tempting Goblin Fruit, failed (no successes) using 6d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 2,5,4,5,7,6.  Eat the delicious magic fruit! Eat it! Mmmm..

03:04, Yesterday: Amber Odell-Smythe failed (no successes) using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 6,1,4,1,3.  Wits + Composure.

23:14, Fri 14 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 2 successes using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 9 or more with rolls of 5,10(+8),3,4,4.  Int + Investigation.

02:36, Thu 13 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe rolled 1 success using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 5,5,2,5,10(+7).  Comp + Subterfuge.

04:07, Wed 12 Aug: Jill Brittles rolled 1 success using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 7,1,6,1,10(+6).  Resolve + Composure.

01:41, Wed 12 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe rolled 5 successes using 10d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 9 or more with rolls of 1,4,8,8,10(+9,1),3,4,1,8,4.  Man + Per + SL.

03:11, Tue 11 Aug: Rafael Mendez drew the single card: 4S using a deck of 54 cards.  Interlude pull.

01:51, Tue 11 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe rolled 1 success using 3d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 4,4,8.  Wits + Composure - 2.

19:14, Mon 10 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 1 success using 7d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 6,1,1,5,8,5,7.  With Willpower!

01:46, Mon 10 Aug: The Drifter rolled 3 successes using 6d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 9,8,6,1,2,9.  Dex + Firearms - Called Shot.

01:27, Mon 10 Aug: Hope Logan failed (no successes) using 2d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 7,3.  Pew Pew.

00:56, Mon 10 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 11 using 1d10+5 with rolls of 6.  Initiative.

21:21, Sun 09 Aug: The Drifter rolled 10 using 1d10+6 with rolls of 4.  Initiative.

02:29, Sun 09 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 3 successes using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 9 or more with rolls of 1,9(+1),7,8,10(+4).  Wits + Composure (Trained Observer).

00:30, Sun 09 Aug: RUBB::secret 339941=The Drifter failed (no successes) using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 4,3,7,6,6.  Dexterity + Stealth.

20:20, Sat 08 Aug: Mastiff drew the 2 cards: KC, 6D using a deck of 54 cards.

What I, The GM see:

14:48, Today: Secret Roll: The Stray, for the NPC Tempting Goblin Fruit, rolled 1 success using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 6,5,3,9,4.  Eat me! - [roll=1597614488.52992.338568]

14:40, Today: Harry Ashton failed (no successes) using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 7,2,6,6,4.  Resolve+Wyrd.

09:05, Yesterday: Secret Roll: Jill Brittles failed (no successes) using 1d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD, Chance Die system with a target of 10, rerolling 10s.  Clarity Attack. - [roll=1597507518.566.338590]

07:55, Yesterday: Hope Logan rolled 2 successes using 4d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 10(+9),3,1,4.  lol Resolve + Composure.

02:22, Yesterday: Secret Roll: The Stray, for the NPC Tempting Goblin Fruit, failed (no successes) using 6d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 2,5,4,5,7,6.  Eat the delicious magic fruit! Eat it! Mmmm.. - [roll=1597483334.23979.338568]

21:24, Fri 14 Aug: Secret Roll: Jack Flash rolled 2 successes using 6d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 8,2,5,6,9,7.  Wits + Composure + Clarity Bonus. - [roll=1597465464.62755.338589]

19:04, Fri 14 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe failed (no successes) using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 6,1,4,1,3.  Wits + Composure.

15:14, Fri 14 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 2 successes using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 9 or more with rolls of 5,10(+8),3,4,4.  Int + Investigation.

04:16, Fri 14 Aug: Secret Roll: The Drifter rolled 2 successes using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 9,3,6,9,6.  Helldiving. - [roll=1597403802.01541.339941]

18:39, Thu 13 Aug: Secret Roll: Jill Brittles rolled 1 success using 6d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 1,6,2,8,2,3.  Kenning. - [roll=1597369179.50889.338590]

18:36, Wed 12 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe rolled 1 success using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 5,5,2,5,10(+7).  Comp + Subterfuge.

18:09, Wed 12 Aug: Secret Roll: Jill Brittles rolled 1 success using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 9,4,5,1,4.  Wits + Empathy - Cnd. - [roll=1597280964.33838.338590]

20:07, Tue 11 Aug: Jill Brittles rolled 1 success using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 7,1,6,1,10(+6).  Resolve + Composure. - [roll=1597201627.18263.338590]

17:41, Tue 11 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe rolled 5 successes using 10d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 9 or more with rolls of 1,4,8,8,10(+9,1),3,4,1,8,4.  Man + Per + SL.

19:52, Mon 10 Aug: Secret Roll: Nuela Sings-The-War-Song drew the single card: 5D using the Deadlands system. - [roll=1597114340.48761.343681]

19:11, Mon 10 Aug: Rafael Mendez drew the single card: 4S using a deck of 54 cards.  Interlude pull.

17:51, Mon 10 Aug: Amber Odell-Smythe rolled 1 success using 3d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 4,4,8.  Wits + Composure - 2.

16:25, Mon 10 Aug: Secret Roll: Jill Brittles rolled 2 successes using 7d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 8 or more with rolls of 8(+6),4,7,2,3,7,8(+1).  Wits + Empathy (Stealing colors) Corrected. - [roll=1597101938.12302.338590]

16:24, Mon 10 Aug: Secret Roll: Jill Brittles rolled 2 successes using 7d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 5,2,5,8,8,5,4.  Wits + Empathy (Stealing colors). - [roll=1597101873.0169.338590]

11:14, Mon 10 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 1 success using 7d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 6,1,1,5,8,5,7.  With Willpower!

17:46, Sun 09 Aug: The Drifter rolled 3 successes using 6d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 9,8,6,1,2,9.  Dex + Firearms - Called Shot. - [roll=1597020370.39168.339941]

17:27, Sun 09 Aug: Hope Logan failed (no successes) using 2d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 7,3.  Pew Pew.

16:56, Sun 09 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 11 using 1d10+5 with rolls of 6.  Initiative.

13:21, Sun 09 Aug: The Drifter rolled 10 using 1d10+6 with rolls of 4.  Initiative. - [roll=1597004505.70444.339941]

18:29, Sat 08 Aug: Hope Logan rolled 3 successes using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling on 9 or more with rolls of 1,9(+1),7,8,10(+4).  Wits + Composure (Trained Observer).

16:30, Sat 08 Aug: Secret Roll: The Drifter failed (no successes) using 5d10 with the World of Darkness nWoD system with a target of 8, rerolling 10s with rolls of 4,3,7,6,6.  Dexterity + Stealth. - [roll=1596929442.76118.339941]

12:20, Sat 08 Aug: Mastiff drew the 2 cards: KC, 6D using a deck of 54 cards.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 306 posts
Mon 17 Aug 2020
at 04:53
  • msg #409

Re: RPoL Design Update

My initial guess would be that it's somehow tied to the fact that all of those rolls failed with no successes. As best I can tell at a cursory glance, that's the commonality, although it might be something else in conjunction with that (like the TN), too. I dunno. I tried to replicate the issue earlier using all of the normal dice size rolls, and couldn't, so I feel like it's tied to the system and the failures... but that's just a guess.

As for the timestamp difference, that I can answer! That's just because the time you see is set by your local machine, and your players must be in a different timezone than you. =)
The Stray
member, 122 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Mon 17 Aug 2020
at 18:28
  • msg #410

Re: RPoL Design Update

Well, I'll keep an eye on it and see if this effect pops up again on other no-success rolls.
voidseeker
member, 8 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 05:04
  • msg #411

Re: RPoL Design Update

Hello folks.

I started using the new interface (which I like), but the Logout link does not work. I have to switch back to the original to do that.
Skald
moderator, 906 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 13:14
  • msg #412

Re: RPoL Design Update

If you've been switching between old and new sites, jase advised that the logout problem is to do with the way cookies work - link to a message in this forum ??
voidseeker
member, 9 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 15:55
  • msg #413

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ah. Probably that. Not a big problem, though, just thought I should mention it.
Utsukushi
member, 1482 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Tue 25 Aug 2020
at 16:35
  • msg #414

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've never really understood why RPoL has a logout button.  Who would ever want to log out??  Madness!  They're going the wrong way!
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 315 posts
Tue 25 Aug 2020
at 16:36
  • msg #415

Re: RPoL Design Update

Multiple people on shared computers using different accounts, or I suppose just anyone on a shared computer. But I agree, logging out is madness!
bigbadron
moderator, 15917 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 25 Aug 2020
at 16:46

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yep, logging out is a smart move on a shared computer, especially a public one.

Also a good idea if you alternate between using different devices, a desktop computer and a phone, for example, otherwise your cookies can go bad.

Edit: And I'll do it even more often, now I know that Utsukushi doesn't understand it.  ;)
This message was last edited by the user at 16:48, Tue 25 Aug 2020.
Harley Quinn
member, 58 posts
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 02:44
  • msg #417

Re: RPoL Design Update

bigbadron:
Also a good idea if you alternate between using different devices, a desktop computer and a phone, for example, otherwise your cookies can go bad.

I am logged into this site & other stes on my computer, iphone, & ipad. Never had a problem.
bigbadron
moderator, 15918 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 03:24

Re: RPoL Design Update

A lot of people do report issues with new message indicators as a result of running RPoL across multiple devices simultaneously.
jase
admin, 3771 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 13:23

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to The Stray (msg # 408):

I think I know what's going on.  Are the other players using the "old" site or the responsive site?


Harley Quinn:
I am logged into this site & other stes on my computer, iphone, & ipad. Never had a problem.

You might not notice it but individual thread read/unread indicators within a game can get out of sync if you don't refresh the site cookies when switching devices.  A quick relog (you don't actually have to go to the bother of a full logout) will fix it.
The Stray
member, 123 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 22:14
  • msg #420

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
In reply to The Stray (msg # 408):

I think I know what's going on.  Are the other players using the "old" site or the responsive site?


I have a mix of both, some who post from the old site but read the responsive site on their phones, some who are using the responsive site exclusively, and some who use the old site exclusively.

one of my players (who uses both) said he didn't see the secret rolls on the responsive site, but did see them on the old site.

In case it helps, I've been using the responsive site exclusively.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:18, Wed 26 Aug 2020.
jase
admin, 3773 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 02:24

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks, think I got it.  It wasn't coping with the new roll format.
The Stray
member, 124 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 05:38
  • msg #422

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks! I'll let you know if it pops up again.
jase
admin, 3778 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 30 Aug 2020
at 07:18

Re: RPoL Design Update

Just uploaded a whole stack of changes.  I wish I could report on what I've done but I've been fiddling a bit too much without actually taking much note of what I've been doing... or it was so long ago that I've forgotten.  I was so good for a while too.

Three things I know;
  • Updated a stack of screens to be responsive, or at least use <div> instead of <table>.  Mainly the GM and profile screens, as a lot of other screens were already done.
  • Removed a whole plethora of XHTML syntax.  Shouldn't affect a thing but it was abundant.
  • Changed the portrait servers to point to RPoL itself.  Our portrait hosts have done an amazing job for an incredible eighteen years but it's time the portraits came home.  The change is currently only on the responsive site for you guinea pigs to test.

ladysharlyne
subscriber, 2793 posts
You get out of a game the
effort you put in it !!
Thu 3 Sep 2020
at 15:07
  • msg #424

Re: RPoL Design Update

Okay who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks!  I am using the Responsive site but... I am sure others have said this already.  When I answer a highlighted thread the indicator light stays on or when I make a thread the same thing.  Just wondering if I am doing wrong.  Yes, I do clear them by marking as read for now. ;)

I do like the site and I am encouraging all my players to start using it so when the switch is made there are no hiccups (says she with all confidence in Jase and I know there will be hiccups!
nauthiz
subscriber, 668 posts
Thu 3 Sep 2020
at 17:09
  • msg #425

Re: RPoL Design Update

A bit upthread around message #412 there's some discussion regarding that issue with a few solutions.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 334 posts
Tue 29 Sep 2020
at 15:37
  • msg #426

Re: RPoL Design Update

Discovered a glitch this morning with die roll IDs and private lines.

A player posted two die rolls in a private line to the GM, by pulling both directly from the dieroller log, roll ID numbers and all.

The first line (from the timestamp through to the end of the first roll's ID number) was properly hidden. The second line (from timestamp through to the brackets at the end of private line) was completely visible to everyone viewing it on the old site. Both lines are properly hidden to players viewing the post on responsive.

Edit: Private lines with rolls pulled from the dieroller log that do not include the roll ID number at the end are working just fine on both sites.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:40, Tue 29 Sept 2020.
nauthiz
subscriber, 683 posts
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 02:19
  • msg #427

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 405):

Generally the last login and last post is the most useful thing to see at a glance in the cast list from amongst the things that are currently hidden.

The links to rMail, Private Message, and Description can stay hidden in my opinion as there's a myriad of other ways to contact someone in a number of other places in the game, and if someone has a description, clicking/tapping on the character name is generally sufficient.
evileeyore
member, 415 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined August 2015
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 04:47
  • msg #428

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 405):

As a few others have said, I like seeing Last Log In and Last Post all at once.  Nothing else really matters to me.
Skald
moderator, 916 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 05:52
  • msg #429

Re: RPoL Design Update

Comparing old site vs responsive cast lists ...

As a GM, I'd like to see player name, groups, last login and last post on screen - all useful information for the GM managing the game - make sure I've got everyone in the right groups and when they were last on/posted.

Tag, and # Posts can move to the dropdown view - I doubt I'd ever need to check them.  Tag never changes in my games, and if I'm using post count to determine new XP award, I need to go into the game threads anyway as I need to work out how many posts since last time I did the XP awards.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:46, Sat 05 Dec 2020.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 348 posts
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 06:52
  • msg #430

Re: RPoL Design Update

To throw in my two cents' with everyone else here -

From the GM side, I'd like to be able to readily see Character Name, Last Login, and Tag all on the screen at once. As a player, I'd definitely like to still see the Tag (we use it to define character rank in several military-based games, and it's handy to have it readily viewable) along with Character Name. Last Post and # of Posts aren't necessary to be viewable at a glance from either side, but don't really need to be hidden either, and would be equally fine on the drop-down or in the list.

What I'd *REALLY* like to see is a different Cast List setup for GMs versus players.

If 'GM Mode' cast list would automatically show Character Name, Last Login, and Tag that would be fantastic. If 'Player Mode' only showed Character Name, and Tag that would be equally fantastic. Groups really doesn't need to be viewable on the cast list at all, since it can be accessed from the GM's Group menu (and the new one is so easy to read, it's fantastic), and in my experience it causes more problems than it helps when players are able to tell which other PCs have access to what groups. Much like language groups, I don't always want every player to know who can read what.

By the same token, I like that 'Last Login' is currently not easy to view for players, as it's difficult to obfuscate when players control more than one PC if it's easy to notice who's always logging in at the same time each day. (Yes, I know that players don't see exact timestamps, but if the same two characters are tripping a 'Today' on their last login at roughly the same time for me every morning, it's pretty easy to put together that they probably belong to the same player.) Unfortunately, I also dislike that it's currently not easy for GMs to scan down the cast list and see who's checked in at a glance.

If I can only have one Cast List mode for GM and player alike, I'll err on the side of usefulness for the GM and request Character Name, Last Login, and Tag be viewable without having to access the drop down. If we can have a different display for GM and player, though, that would be absolutely fantastic.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:55, Sat 05 Dec 2020.
jase
admin, 3785 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 09:25

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for the prompt feedback.  I'm wondering if players should/need the last login information, certainly would resolve/remove all that obfuscating business.  Interesting idea with different information for GM and players.

Speaking of removing information for players, not sure they should see the groups either.
Skald
moderator, 917 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 12:54
  • msg #432

Re: RPoL Design Update

As a player ... no, I don't care what groups everyone is in and I don't need to know when someone was last on (if they're off enjoying their hols and the GM posts for them or there's no post at all for the duration), then I don't need to know the nitty gritty - to my mind that's strictly the GM's province.

SunRuanEr raises an interesting point - if Tag is being used for something other than access level (player, NPC etc), then that could be useful to the GM/other players ... but then so could something like Race in a D&D game (ah, Fred the Fighter is a Dwarf !  That explains everything ...) - I suppose the option is there to change the Tag to show character Race if it's that important to the players/GM, but to my mind it's one of those things that wouldn't change that often whereas login/last post would.

Nothing against Tag showing, of course, just worried that we might not have space to spare for everything.
evileeyore
member, 418 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined August 2015
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 14:45
  • msg #433

Re: RPoL Design Update

Skald:
As a player ... I don't need to know when someone was last on...

Inversely as a Player, if I'm waiting for other people to post (so I'm not completely spotlight hogging) and it's been X number days and I see everyone has logged on during that dry posting spell, I'll stop waiting and go ahead and spotlight hog, as it's clear everyone is waiting on me to push the game forward.

I'm in a number of groups with people who prefer to be reactionary rather than proactive, where I tend to prefer being proactive (varies with the character, but overall I prefer proactivity).
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 349 posts
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 15:04
  • msg #434

Re: RPoL Design Update

Well... from the standpoint of space, just thinking hypothetically here and speculating that we *might* be able to have different GM and Player Cast List modes.

There are three columns currently, besides character name: Groups, Tag(s), and # of Posts
Under the mouseover dropdown, there are two rows:
 Last Game Login: <date/time>  Last Post: <date>
 Send: rMail | Private Msg | View: Description

If the columns besides character name were swapped to (for GMs): Last Login, Tag(s), and maybe Last Post (as I can see that being pertinent if you're wanting to quick-skim to see if one particular person has responded to something at a glance, having thought about this a bit more) then that's still just three columns so it doesn't seem like much more space would be utilized. In a hypothetical two-mode system, players would just get Tag(s) and Last Post, so that's one less column.

Then, you could put (for GMs) under the dropdown:
 Posts: <number>  Groups: <ABCDEF>
 Send: rMail | Private Msg | View: Description

Players could see under their dropdown:
 Posts: <number>
 Send: rMail | Private Msg | View: Description

(edited because I realized I'd been redundant pre-coffee <.< )

@jase: True, removing player access to Last Login does make it easier to deal with obfuscation! =)
There would be no need to code in that fix to have PMs trip the Last Login for GMPCs, as well as eliminating the current guessing game of 'Has my GMPC logged in today?' (since GMs can only see THEIR last login time on the cast list, which isn't what players see for GMPCs), and helping players by not making it as obvious when they're controlling more than one PC. Not to mention that it would cut down on the doom-and-gloom comments from players of 'Oh, I see we've lost so-and-so...' when they notice that someone else hasn't logged in for a week.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:14, Sat 05 Dec 2020.
nauthiz
subscriber, 685 posts
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 16:10
  • msg #435

Re: RPoL Design Update

From a player standpoint I find having the last login to be helpful as well.

Generally for the same reasons as evileeyore.

It's also useful when evaluating existing games you're thinking about trying to join because it's a better gauge for judging how active a game's player base is than "last post", and figuring out generally which characters are still around.
Locke1221
subscriber, 50 posts
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 16:23
  • msg #436

Re: RPoL Design Update

As a GM I have to disagree with you @nauthiz. I find last post and post count to be a more effective tool, as I have had players constantly log in, and not post. At that point they are doing little more than clearing red.
jase
admin, 3786 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 02:43

Re: RPoL Design Update

Happy to shuffle it around however we like, the issue with having last logon and last post is they're pretty long so can consume a fair bit of width.

On the theory floated by SunRuanEr I've made GMs see name, groups, last post & last logon.  Players see name, tag, last post and last logon.  Hovering over reveals the missing information (tag or groups, number of posts).

I've reduced the year (where it's shown) to be just "'19" (etc) to reclaim a tiny bit of space.  I could reclaim more width by having the dates only for everyone, the hover expansion could show the hour and minute if it's still desirable (for the GMs!).

The beta site has the new layout.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 350 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 03:04
  • msg #438

Re: RPoL Design Update

Jase, that's pretty awesome that you made two versions (yay!) but I have some questions. (I did hop over there onto the beta, but as none of the games I play in are there, I can't check much with regards to cast lists just yet, alas. Gonna work on fixing that!)

Are you currently displaying full timestamps for last login for players, as well as GMs? That was how I read your post, and that definitely seems like too much information to provide to players (since that's even *more* than they get currently and all, and pretty much destroys any chance of keeping multiple characters belonging to the same player obfuscated).

Would it be possible to make the Last Login for *players* display only in the mouseover dropdown? If the consensus is that people want players to have access to Last Login, it would at least help hide simultaneous logins if players could only see one person's login at a time instead of everything at a glance. (That is both the best, and worst, thing about the current responsive cast list - it's *fantastic* that players can't easily see all logins at a glance, but a pain that GMs can't, either.)

Edit: Still disagree with players having the ability to see Groups at all, though, even on dropdown.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:05, Sun 06 Dec 2020.
Skald
moderator, 919 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 05:18
  • msg #439

Re: RPoL Design Update

As GM - Last Login/Post should show date and time - actually date first THEN time following ... first thing I look at is the date, so much easier if that's the first thing listed in the string ... then if it's today the time is relevant too: if someone logged in 5 mins ago I might hold off on an update to give them the chance to post first; if it was 12 hours ago I'd know not to wait on the off chance they're still pondering.

H'mmm ... with that in mind, how about we show date and time under both headings if the player logged in/posted in the last 24 hours ?   If > 24 hours then just need to show the date.


As a player - no, I quite agree with SunRuanEr - I don't want to see other characters groups at all.  I'd like to be able to get at the groups my own characters are in (won't need that often so drop down or on some other screen is fine) but not crucial.
nauthiz
subscriber, 686 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 05:51
  • msg #440

Re: RPoL Design Update

In the player view on my mobile device the "Last Logon"/"Last Post" text is wrapping into two lines for some dates (but not others).  Visually this looks a bit messy with some things wrapped and some not despite the strings being all the same character length.


In the GM view it's less of an issue because the time stamp in addition to the date (if there is one vs "today") make pretty much everything wrap.


Overall if there is text wrap it might be nice to have the cells on the same row as the wrapped text align with the top line of the wrapped text rather than the bottom.


Beyond that I think the reshuffling of information for better prioritization as presented is overall a positive step forward.
MalaeDezeld
member, 128 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 07:00
  • msg #441

Re: RPoL Design Update

The two dates are too wide on a phone in  portrait mode (360 px) . The information become unclear when the last logon is this year and the last post isn't. That appears as if the year part is about the last logon and not the last post.
From the beta: link to another game
my screenshot: https://drive.google.com/file/...Vy/view?usp=drivesdk



When I check a new game, I feel that last post date and number of posts give a good idea of how much everyone is "publicly" active. (public as in not in private messages; any/all gm-approved lurkers would see the posts.) Information that can be seen/calculated if everything is in group 0 (or by lurkers).
Tags are useful to see when they are used. So definitely a nice addition to the unfold section.


As a player, I've used the last logon the same way as evileeyore do.


For the gm, if there's only one date outside of the fold, could the choice of logon/post be a game preference / option of the game? Because I wonder if the split between those that would want one or the other would be near 50%/50%.

I'm team last logon, as my games are small enough that I see the last posts directly in the thread I'm checking anyway.


For the group information, as a player, the most useful part is shared groups. So I'm not surprised if a character show up in a particular thread.

It might be interesting to know which characters are in the "limbo" that is group Z though. I would suggest in a separate list, fold by default under the npc list.


edit to add:
SunRuanEr:
Would it be possible to make the Last Login for *players* display only in the mouseover dropdown? [...] it would at least help hide simultaneous logins if players could only see one person's login at a time instead of everything at a glance.

I feel that it would only be "security by obscurity". In the sense that if someone is looking for a specific pair, the cost of unfolding two isn't much higher than the cost of just one.

In the case of not having everything at a glance, to spot a random pair, well... I've definitively broke that already. I've made a greasemonkey script so I don't have to unfold anything.
And even without the script, the everything at a glance is only a click or two away anyway (source code of the page, or a simple copy-paste).
This message was last edited by the user at 07:39, Sun 06 Dec 2020.
Zag24
supporter, 659 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 07:36
  • msg #442

Re: RPoL Design Update

I love the new look in the beta site.  Also, it's funny that my old games from 2011 are still there.
jase
admin, 3787 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 09:26

Re: RPoL Design Update

https://codepen.io/woof72/pen/PpQGOE has a demo for the "time on hover" I was talking about.  Only for "Narrator", the rest are as the current beta site has it.  That's the GM view -- players don't see the time, only the date.

Years are only shown when it's not this year.  It adapts.  "Today", "yesterday", no year and then with year.

With the space saving from removing the time plus 2 digits less for the year we can probably squeeze in another column, so four in total.  As there's five (name, # posts, groups, tag, last logon, last post) then we've got to figure out which one gets relegated to the on-hover section (can be different for GMs and players, can't let SunRuanEr down!).

Edit:  The editor section now has an extra posts column, just to see how well it all fits.  Also has all the nice little hover bits.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:35, Sun 06 Dec 2020.
JohnB
supporter, 2103 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 11:02
  • msg #444

Re: RPoL Design Update

As a GM, I rarely use 'No of Posts' - I am much more interested in details of the last login and post.  'Groups' is much more important to me than 'Tag' (I  know the status of my players and NPCs)
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 351 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 14:19
  • msg #445

Re: RPoL Design Update

Awesome jase, I'm relieved to know that the timestamp is only for GMs no matter what, and that we're looking at keeping two-mode cast lists (yay!). I'm also okay with Tag(s) only being in the dropdown menu, since it seems my games must be one of the very few that actually use that for anything - it would be *better* (for us) if it was displayed in the list, but I could live with it in the dropdown, as long as it's viewable somewhere.

With regards to last login, though...

MalaeDezeld mentioned above that having it in the dropdown list for players only creates "security by obscurity" - that is 100% true. It's not secure. But it's better than having it all out there in the open for people to easily spot trends. The only way to make it secure would be to remove last login from players' view entirely, and I'll admit that I have never been more excited about a development potential than I was when jase mentioned yesterday morning that he wasn't sure if players needed last login information because it does eliminate a lot of hassle with regards to obscuring character control.

Currently, if you are a player, all of your characters (PC or NPC) login every time you refresh a game site. If you are a GM, every character you control that isn't your GM alias (NPC, or PC) logs in randomly as far as what players see on their Cast List. Posting in a public thread (PMs don't work, but fixing that is on jase's To-Do List) will force-update a GM character's last login to 'Today', but that's the only way to control it. After that point, they'll float between 'Today' and 'Yesterday' (sometimes they'll stay there for a few days, changing each night at midnight to 'Yesterday' again, which is really amusing) and then they'll eventually start to fall off after a few days to 2 weeks of that and cease keeping up at all...until the next time they make a public post.

The problem there is that the GM *can't* see that. On the GM's side of things, it looks like every character that belongs to them logs in every time they log in, which creates a serious disparity particularly in the case of GM PCs - "Bobby doesn't look like he's logged in for weeks, GM. Is he okay?" "What are you talking about, he logged in Today?" It's shockingly difficult to manage if you don't have someone like a spouse in your game that has non-GM status to check and see what the actual player cast list shows so that you know what your players are seeing. If players couldn't see last login at all, that would be entirely eliminated.

So, I figured I'd list some Pros and Cons of having Last Login visible for players - if the consensus still remains that players *need* to be able to see that, so be it, the 'security through obscurity' dropdown option of making it harder for them to see it is better than nothing - but I was so excited about the prospect of it being completely removed yesterday morning that I have to try.

Pros of having Last Login information be GM only:
1. Jase can strike 'Fix PMs to force-update GM-controlled characters last login' off his To-Do list. =)
2. GMs won't see different Last Login information than their players do with regards to GM-controlled characters, eliminating the possibility of them accidentally outing themselves in conversation.
3. GMPCs that haven't posted in a while won't make the cast list look like it has inactive people on it to players. Remember that the GM can't see the same GMPCs' last login information that players do, so they often have no idea a PC looks inactive from the player side.
4. No more gloom-and-doom posts from players of 'Did we lose Bobby?' or 'Looks like Betty's quit' just because those characters haven't logged in for a week or two. (This is shockingly common, and really irritating.)
5. GMs will be able to post for players that *are* absent without other players realizing that it's the GM posting for them. Currently, when a GM puppets a player character, Last Post is updated, but Last Login isn't, making it pretty obvious it was a puppet post. (It can be nice to know that even if you have to tell your GM you lost your job & internet/have to go to the hospital/whatever, it doesn't become everyone else's business too.)
6. Players that control multiple PCs (or NPCs) will have zero fear that someone will notice login trends that are outside of their control.

Cons of having Last Login information GM only:
1. Players can't check other players' login activity.

If you're using logging in as an indication of player activity in a game you're thinking about joining, I think you're doing it wrong. In my experience, if people are logging in every day and never posting, they're just clearing red. If you're an actual player looking to see if another player has seen a post, there's an easy workaround for that. If it's been a few days/week/whatever and you've been waiting for Betty to post, and she hasn't - PM your GM and ask 'Hey, I was waiting for Betty. Has she seen the last post? Is it cool if I go ahead and go again?'

There is *a* workaround for GMs with regards to tripping logins for their characters even when they don't have something to legitimately post in a public thread, but it's a massive pain in the behind to utilize. It involves putting all of the GM-controlled characters into a Group, and making BS posts with all of them on a regular basis to trip their last logins - and even that doesn't work well when Groups are visible to players, because more than once an astute player has said 'Hey, why is Betty in <random unused Group>?' Which means the workaround when Groups are visible to players involves putting the GM-controlled characters into a Group long enough to make a post and then removing them right away, and hoping no one noticed. It's doable (we have to do it every time a GMPC needs to respond to a PM, currently) but man, is it a pain. Not to mention that it requires GMs to remember to do it regularly. Unfortunately, even that won't help obfuscate multiple characters for players, since their problem isn't *not* logging in.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:46, Sun 06 Dec 2020.
Low Key
subscriber, 247 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 15:36
  • msg #446

Re: RPoL Design Update

While that was a very eloquent argument for taking the last login information (day only) away from players, I'd be very upset to see it go.
So I feel compelled to offer a counter point.

I should note, I am in favour of the two different views, if that helps.
And would not be against a more 'zoomed out' version for players (maybe last logon of 'within the last week' or 'longer than a week', if coding doesn't make that a crazy suggestion) as a middle ground.

So:

Pros of having Last Login information be GM only:

1. Jase can strike 'Fix PMs to force-update GM-controlled characters last login' off his To-Do list. =)
Can't argue with this. Although we're also adding 'code a way for players and GMs to see two totally different cast lists' which may not be less work and may be a pro for leaving last logon visible to players.

2. GMs won't see different Last Login information than their players do with regards to GM-controlled characters, eliminating the possibility of them accidentally outing themselves in conversation.
I've never been in a discussion where there would be a risk of this. Unless the GM is regularly quoting logon dates and times I don't see why a quick proof read to check they're not providing unnecessary information doesn't also prevent this. If your players are asking 'when did so and so last logon' direct them to the cast list. If that doesn't work, the problem sounds like the player not the information in the cast list.

3. GMPCs that haven't posted in a while won't make the cast list look like it has inactive people on it to players. Remember that the GM can't see the same GMPCs' last login information that players do, so they often have no idea a PC looks inactive from the player side.
If I'm a prospective player, I check the cast list to see if there are some active players. If some characters look inactive, that's fine (and, honestly, expected). If I'm in the game, I'm going to want to check characters I'm posting with. Who, presumably, if they're GMPCs, will be posting, so also not a problem.

4. No more gloom-and-doom posts from players of 'Did we lose Bobby?' or 'Looks like Betty's quit' just because those characters haven't logged in for a week or two. (This is shockingly common, and really irritating.)
An engaged player base who care about the people they're playing with is a problem? If this is really irritating to you, and you want to maintain the illusion that an additional character (belonging to GM or a player) is a unique character, then make the occasional OOC post. Eliminates the problem of people worrying about their absence, and builds the illusion that they're a separate entity.

5. GMs will be able to post for players that *are* absent without other players realizing that it's the GM posting for them. Currently, when a GM puppets a player character, Last Post is updated, but Last Login isn't, making it pretty obvious it was a puppet post. (It can be nice to know that even if you have to tell your GM you lost your job & internet/have to go to the hospital/whatever, it doesn't become everyone else's business too.)
This is fair, and I can't argue with it. If a player is absent for RL reasons they wish to keep private, and the GM is posting on their behalf to enable that, then yeah, the cast list may make it clear it was the GM not the player posting. A work around would be a generic 'AFK' post from the player giving no details. I'd also say, most times, the stylistic differences in the writing would give away that someone else wrote the post.

6. Players that control multiple PCs (or NPCs) will have zero fear that someone will notice login trends that are outside of their control.
Ok, but how much fear is there about this? Honest question. I don't care, and will be honest about who I'm playing unless there's a reason not to be. And I've been in a small game, where there was a reason not to be, and where my timezone was distinctly different. I managed to successfully 'stealth' as an additional character for a month or two, when the stealth character died (as planned) and I could reveal all OOC. There are usually far more obvious tells than the logon on the cast list. Writing style, punctuation/formatting quirks, posting times, OOC posts, and probably others I can't think of right now. I'll accept that the cast list is the only one of those the player doesn't have some sort of control over, but in my experience it as also very minor compared to the others. And, unless you happen to refresh the cast list at the exact time another player is logging on it's a long way from conclusive. If you've got players obsessively refreshing to catch the moment someone else logs in, again, the problem is the player not the cast list.

Cons of having Last Login information GM only:

1. Players can't check other players' login activity.
Well yeah. And the above list can be summarised as 'it makes some things more difficult for GMs, and for players with secret characters.
So I'm going to expand on what this means means for me:

- I'm a prospective player in your game. I want to check my compatibility with the current players to make sure I'd be a good fit for the game and it'd be a good fit for me.
With last logon information I can look at the characters who have logged in over the last week, for example. Read the descriptions. See how I feel about the characters I'd potentially be playing with.
Without it, I pick a few and guess. Or read the whole cast list, which in some games is a lot of characters. And I hope that if I join the characters I was excited to write with are active and the ones that raised red flags are either inactive or greatly outnumbered by the ones I liked.

- I'm a new player in a game and I need to jump in somewhere. Having an idea of who has logged on in the last few days, and who hasn't logged on for months gives me an idea of who to approach (IC or via PM) as I figure things out. If the GM thinks a GMPC who isn't showing as active would be perfect for this, then they can approach me as that GMPC, or suggest as GM 'hey, what about whoever'.

- I'm a player in a game. My scene partner has gone silent. Was my last post terrible? Or am I being impatient? If the cast list says they haven't logged on for a few days, I need to cool my jets. If they're logging on daily but not saying anything, it might be time for a polite and friendly PM asking if everything's ok and if I can do anything to help them post.
Yeah, without the information I can PM the GM to give me the information the cast list currently provides. But, if players asking if other players are ok is irritating, players asking 'what would the cast list say if the information hadn't been removed' will get far more irritating.

- I'm a player in a group scene. A character has been quiet. Do I post again or do I wait? As above, and other people have covered this.
The OOC is a good place to check this, but if someone isn't posting IC or OOC it's hard to check in with them. The cast list let's me know if they're clearing red, or if they've not had a chance to log on. I can use that information to inform my response.

While I see the pros and cons to both sides, I play more than I GM. So I want the cast list to be useful to me, a player.
I find the cast list really useful, and would be very sad to lose 'last login'.
I run the old version of the site on my phone so I can still see last logon at a glance if I need to.

From Jase's list of the five bits of information the cast list currently shows, I'd order them (from most to least important to me, as a player):
Name - the rest of the information is meaningless without this
Last Logon - for the reasons outlined above
Last Post - potentially gives a bit more information about activity. But not vital
Tag/Group - I've never been in a game where, as a player, this mattered. Reading this thread, some people have, and I'd have no objection to prioritising one/both of these over Last Post
# Posts - Other than letting me know who is brand new and has never posted, this tells me nothing without further context. And that further context tells me more than this number.
Obviously this is my list, my opinion, and it's totally subjective :)
nauthiz
subscriber, 687 posts
Sun 6 Dec 2020
at 17:21
  • msg #447

Re: RPoL Design Update

The "time on hover" feature looks like a good idea generally.

Though we still get this bit here on mobile

https://i.imgur.com/dHMhxPB.jpg

The content of the GM area doesn't vertically align, and the extra column in the Editor area really squishes things together.  This doesn't affect functionality at all (or at least maybe not much), mostly just aesthetics.




Like Low Key, I'm pro Last Logon for everyone (even if it's only revealed on tap/click/hover/etc).


Based on opinion and anecdote.

I don't think I've ever been in a game where players are watching/checking the cast list intently.

The only time I think it's come up is when someone's gone AFK.  Then you do get the posts about "Did so and so quit?" or more often "have you heard from so and so?" but that's generally been due to people being in a scene with "so and so" and them needing to make a decision (or have the GM do it) about how to proceed either moving things forward, or knowing when to expect things to move forward.

Most of that is solvable through GMs having an absenteeism policy and enforcing it, so everyone knows if a player hasn't posted in X days what the next step should be/will be.

The other time it's been useful as far as people going AFK is when the GM does it.  A GM that's logging in but not posting hits differently than a GM that just stopped logging in with regards to whether a game is temporarily in the doldrums, or statistically more likely to join the pile of games that die off without explanation.


As someone joining a game in progress, it's helpful to know who's around.  There is a difference between someone checking a game and not posting vs not checking a game.  When a game is in a holding pattern due to mid-game recruitment, GM being busy, etc there's plenty of times people check the game to see what was posted but have no reason to reply.  In that case they're usually just waiting for the game to actively resume.

Yes that might be a red flag, but it's much less of one to me as a prospective player than looking into a game that's recruiting and only having "last posted 4 weeks ago" to make some judgements as to the health of said game vs "Last logged on yesterday, last posted 4 weeks ago".


As a player I've also used "last logon" many times when GMs are looking for players to pick up characters that have had their players dropped or at least giving that as an option.  Not every GM is good about communicating all the information needed for that decision (which is instructive about the GM, but that's another matter) and popping into a game, and checking the cast list to suss out what characters the GM was talking about is much easier via Last Logon than Last Post.


Maybe I don't play in enough games that have "secret players"/"Secret GMPCs" but I've never really had that come up in such a way that it needs to be obfuscated more than it already is.  This gets back to my experience with people not really tracking the cast list very intently, or at least rarely offering comment or evidence that they're doing so.  Of the few times I know there's been "secret players" for second characters (because it was me) nobody ever commented or took any actions that made it seem like they were aware or that it otherwise seemed to effect the game.  In one specific instance a player actually stepped up and took over a game as GM and then there was a bit of confusion because they had had no idea as a player I was running what looked like 2 separate PCs, and the way the info on the GM side looked it wasn't very clear either.


Likewise, unless a character has gone quiet and I'm waiting on them, I don't think I've ever noticed that a GM has stepped in to run a character in such a way that they were trying to keep that action a secret.  Which may mean it's never happened, or may mean as a player I didn't notice because I'm not actively looking for such things.
jase
admin, 3788 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 12:12

Re: RPoL Design Update

While I appreciate the voracity and volume of your replies (and haven't had a chance to fully digest them) there's one thing I will remind you all... if adding or removing a feature is contentious then I won't do it unless there's an overwhelming vote to do so (or it's just otherwise unavoidable).

So we'll be sticking with last logon available, I'll just have to tweak so last post (which affects obfuscation calculations) includes private messages.
Skald
moderator, 920 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 12:55
  • msg #449

Re: RPoL Design Update

Just a thought re the note on the top of the page:

Hover over a row (or click on touch devices) for additional information.

Could we tweak the terminology to:

Hover mouse over a row (or tap on touchscreens) for additional information.


:>
Low Key
subscriber, 248 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 14:25
  • msg #450

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thank you Jase! :)
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 352 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 15:08
  • msg #451

Re: RPoL Design Update

Understood, jase, but I had to try! =)

With that in mind, however, I would like to request two compromises that I don't think anyone will disagree with (if you can make them happen).

One, since we have a player view and a GM view cast list, can we keep the Last Login information in the part that requires you to mouseover to view it on the player view? That's not a removal of anything, since that's how the responsive cast list works right now for everyone. You'd just be *adding* the non-mouseover view for GMs.

Two, can we agree to remove the groups from the player view? (At least for characters other than your own.) No one seemed to have a problem with that, and it would help take care of handling last-post-tripping via hidden groups in the meantime while you work on getting PMs to work. Not to mention that it's pretty handy for other purposes, anyway, like letting parties split to handle secret side quests/missions without everyone knowing they're going on/who's involved, etc.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:11, Mon 07 Dec 2020.
JohnB
supporter, 2105 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 15:37
  • msg #452

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
Two, can we agree to remove the groups from the player view? (At least for characters other than your own.) No one seemed to have a problem with that, a


I do  :)
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 353 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 15:41
  • msg #453

Re: RPoL Design Update

You said it was important to you as GM, JohnB. I'm not suggesting removing it from GM view. =)

JohnB:
As a GM, I rarely use 'No of Posts' - I am much more interested in details of the last login and post.  'Groups' is much more important to me than 'Tag' (I  know the status of my players and NPCs)

JohnB
supporter, 2106 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 16:00
  • msg #454

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yep.  But I also use it as a player to monitor who is in the same group as me  :)
Locke1221
subscriber, 51 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 16:53
  • msg #455

Re: RPoL Design Update

@JohnB, you can do that in other ways, like posting a response in a thread and checking the check boxes below the formatting, which will list every character (PC or NPC) that has access to that thread and thus that group.

I'll preface this by saying I've not been a player in a game on rpol for about three years, the few games I've put a character in dying before play started. I have been an active GM for several games for the last seven years though, and that has been my primary participation on the site for the last three. So my needs/desires/perception is all wrapped up in the GM side.

As a GM, I find its been much like teaching a classroom, which is the job I participate in outside of rpol. My second job as it were. It is a balancing act of placating here, firm lines here, massaging egos there, and boosting confidence to that other side. I've found groups to be a great tool in helping to weave the stories my players create together, such as when the evil characters in my D&D game went off to rob as a side quest, they were able to do so secretly.

Because players, even the best players, have a hard time divorcing themselves of their out of character and in character knowledge, and rather than run into the issue of characters being treated differently I like to keep some things close to the chest. However, I have also had players go nuts over knowing that x characters were in a group they weren't, and how I must be playing favorites.

Now sure, someone could say just remove the player who had the fit, or don't keep things secret, but my experience is that warm bodies who post and remain with a game are rare and that people can't keep what they know from being what their character knows or acts on.

In conclusion, and as a final point, you already can't see a post that is in a group you are not in, why should a player have access to knowing who is in a group they are not?
JohnB
supporter, 2107 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 19:32
  • msg #456

Re: RPoL Design Update

Locke1221:
... why should a player have access to knowing who is in a group they are not?


Why not?

*Shrug* I have  played and DMed here for the last 20 years or so, and have also spent a large chunk of my life as a teacher -  I currently train apprentices in Digital Marketing.

I have always been a very 'Student Centred' teacher, full involving all of my students in all of my classes -  and being very honest with them all the way through their courses.  I do the same in my games.  A game belongs as much to the players as it does the GM -  without the players, there isn't a game, they have a right to have an input into all aspects of the game.  In my game, rules and settings change according to input from players.  I am just working out how to run a mini arena (something that I personally dislike intensely) because that is something my players want.

I wonder is, as you haven't participated as a player for a while, you might be somewhat divorced from the way that players feel and see games?  As a player, I have had good GMs and bad GMs.  Some games I  have remained in for years, others I have left quite quickly.  I have had DMs that post quickly, others who post to a schedule and some who seem to struggle to post at all.  I like to have some element of control / involvement in games I join.  I suspect there are quite a few players like that, who don't get involved in this board.  TBH, I am only here at the moment, because one of my players noticed a specific problem in the way languages were display
led.  Otherwise, I would he completely oblivious of this discussion.

In my own game, I move characters between parties and groups.  I leave players in groups that they don't participate in actively (because they want to refer to old threads that they did participate in) and I have a couple of players who like to 'monitor' everything that goes on in-game.  I don't have a problem with that.  After all, they should all know the basics of what happened in the other threads when they get back to town, and they listen to the general gossip.  And I believe that Players are entitled to know who is 'lurking' in their threads

*shrugs* it is a communal / group game - even though I am in charge and the main creator.

But, why the need to get rid of the Groups  field, when (as you point out) there are other ways to find out that information?
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 354 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 20:01
  • msg #457

Re: RPoL Design Update

JohnB:
But, why the need to get rid of the Groups  field, when (as you point out) there are other ways to find out that information?


I don't think that's what Locke was saying, JohnB. You were stating that you liked, as a player, to be able to see the people that were in *your* groups. Locke was pointing out (correctly) that there's a way to see who is in *your* groups without having Groups listed on the cast list - open a post in a thread for one of your groups, and you'll see every character that has access to that group at the bottom under the 'Make this post private' option.

So, yes, there is another way to find out what people are in *YOUR* groups.

What there isn't, without having it listed in the cast list, is a way to find out what people are in groups that you *AREN'T* in.

I can't see posts made to threads that are in groups that I don't have a character in, right? By the same token, what need is there to be able to tell that other characters can see posts that I can't? I can tell that you're a reasonable person, as most people that wind up in Development are, so I'm sure you're saying to yourself 'What does it matter?' because you - as a reasonable person - wouldn't abuse that knowledge.

Not every person is that reasonable. Not everyone is content to know that other characters might be doing something on the side that they aren't, or to not see that characters X, Y, and Z are all in the same group, and start looking for a reason why/try to figure out what those characters have in common that explains why they're all in the same group. People metagame, it's a sad fact of RPoL. Why make it easier?

Moreover, there's precedent already for hiding group information - see the Language Groups, or even just the game menu itself. There's nothing at all that lets me determine who has access to *my* language groups, not even a series of checkboxes at the bottom of the post page, much less seeing who has languages that I *don't* have. By the same token, someone that isn't in Group X won't see threads set in that Group on their game list at all, they have no idea it exists...until they see 'X' next to another character's name on the cast list and start wondering 'What's going on in Group X that I can't see?'

...so, what Locke asked, and I'll ask again is - what *need* is there for a player to know whether or not other characters might be in groups that said player *isn't* in?
This message was last edited by the user at 20:12, Mon 07 Dec 2020.
Zag24
supporter, 660 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 20:13
  • msg #458

Re: RPoL Design Update

Imagine running a Mafia game, where you have one group that is the Mafia group.  It's rather important that the people who are not in that group can't tell who is in it.

Hmm.  Maybe I'll run a Mafia game here on RPoL.
JohnB
supporter, 2108 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 20:27
  • msg #459

Re: RPoL Design Update

*grin*  I have said my bit.  That you guys don't like my reason or that you don't run or play games in the same way as I do - isn't my problem - and it is not something that I am going to debate  with you at length.

I come to RPoL to play games -  not fuss about how other people play games  :)  I am sure that Jase will make whatever decision HE thinks is best for the site and the vast majority of the people who use it.

PS:  I played in a Mafia game here once.  It didn't enjoy it much  *shrug*
Locke1221
subscriber, 52 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 22:24
  • msg #460

Re: RPoL Design Update

@JohnB, I think we're passing in the night in regards to our arguments. I agree that a player should be able to see who is in their groups. I don't believe they need to see who is in another group that they are not.

I simply pointed out that there were alternative ways to see that other than the cast list showing the group listings to every player.

You're right, we don't all play the same way, but we do come here to debate in a civil fashion so that Jase has the ability to see what arguments exist on the site, especially when he specifically asked for feedback on this matter.
JohnB
supporter, 2109 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 23:09
  • msg #461

Re: RPoL Design Update

TBH -  I responded to

"With that in mind, however, I would like to request two compromises that I don't think anyone will disagree with (if you can make them happen)."

I wanted to point out that wasn't accurate, I disagreed with it *shrug* and that the people who come here to 'debate' aren't really representative of the RPoL community.  Discussion groups never are.  BUT, it got turned into something pushy with reams of 'argument'.  I get fed up with that quite quickly.

TBH, if I wanted to run a game where players didn't know who was in other groups - I would set up half-a-dozen fake groups and pop people into them at random.  I wouldn't even bother putting a port into the group -  but it would obscure  'secret' groups quite nicely.

There are other ways to manage your groups, without hiding anything.  *shrug*   :)
theseeker
member, 30 posts
Fri 25 Dec 2020
at 20:30
  • msg #462

Re: RPoL Design Update

Printing threads from the responsive site has significant difference to legacy. One thing I like about it, is that it will do a page break to start a post on a new page when it will not fit at the end of the current page. However, there is a, possibly related problem. It also truncates a post that will not completely fit on a single page. Instead of continuing on the a new page, the remaining content is just thrown away.

Another, more minor complaint, is that it includes the full menu page at the top. When printing, that should be suppressed.

So for now I switch (after making sure to log out) to the old site to print (to pdf).
Chernobyl
supporter, 137 posts
Area of desolate waste,
Mutation Central.
Fri 1 Jan 2021
at 13:47
  • msg #463

Re: RPoL Design Update

Love the responsive site in general. Wish that I had the option for the regular site to redirect to the responsive site if I had it selected in my profile.

I’m sure I’ve seen it before, but the cast screen is significantly worse as you can’t see when a player last logged on without clicking each member one by one. The old one was way better.
jase
admin, 3791 posts
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Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 01:40

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 426):

I believe the roll links use square brackets to encapsulate the results.  The first "]" will close the private message as the old site is ignorant to embedded rolls.  Not much I can do about that without trying hack at the old site while it's in production, which is a risky proposition at best.


Due to ongoing performance issues with Perl (the pages with a ".cgi" extension) and also an overall desire to move to PHP (the pages with ".php"), I made the rash decision to rush moving game.cgi to game.php.  You should now find all game.php (which is the screen that lists the threads for each game) loads/renders faster (general testing shows down from around 0.7 seconds to under 0.3).

That page is the second most popular at 25% of all page views, so if you add the front page (which is top at 35%) then 60% of all our page hits are now PHP.

The responsive site is essentially the second level of testing (lucky you!), with me being the one and only first tester.  I think I got everything migrated successfully but I hope you'll let me know if anything is amiss.  This is only relevant for game.php pages.  Though a simple post to write, the change was pretty heavy.

Other changes:
  • I also detected that a lot of pages were being rendered without a "doctype" which means some browsers were activating "quirks mode".  Quirks mode makes all sorts of old compatibility quirks happen.. basically some layout tweaks/oddities.
  • On top of this I also tweaked some font sizes and some padding/spacing.
  • Added red notification text to the "rMail" top nav menu on new rMail.  The additional menu block that comes up has stayed.
  • Additionally a check for new rMail is now performed when on the game menu (and will alert the same as above).
  • Further changes to the cast list based on feedback, tried to find the best possible compromise.
  • Printing a page removes the navigation, side and footer menus, page navigation row, up/down arrows.  Additionally sets the post information and content to be one after the other and also tries to keep an entire post on one page whenever possible.
  • Goodness knows what else I've messed with and "tweaked"!


Regarding the quirks mode fixes -- If you see any slight adjustments to page layouts then hopefully it's an improvement, if you think something has taken a turn for the worst then let me know.
This message was last edited by the user at 01:56, Sun 17 Jan 2021.
Skald
moderator, 923 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 05:14
  • msg #465

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not sure if it's me or the update or it was happening before ...

On Responsive, just noticed if I view a thread in Technical Discussions and then go back to the forum menu, the unread flag is still present.  If I then go to the main menu it correctly shows no unread messages for that forum, but when I return to the Technical Discussions thread that unread flag is still there.

Reloaded old site and it all works fine there - unread flag cleared as expected when return to forum menu after viewing thread.

Technical Discussions just happened to be where I was at the time when I noticed it, don't know if problem extends elsewhere.

Win 10, Firefox 84.0.2.
jase
admin, 3798 posts
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Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 06:03
  • msg #466

Re: RPoL Design Update

Haven't fallen into the trap of being logged into rpol.net at the same time, have you?

r.rpol.net sets cookies for the domain r.rpol.net while rpol.net (and the www variant) sets cookies for plain rpol.net.

Unfortunately when browsers retrieve settings for subdomains they'll also grab any cookies for the parent domain.  So when a webpage at r.rpol.net requests a list of the cookies it'll return a combination of r.rpol.net and rpol.net cookies.  As far as I can tell in a random order, and the order also seems to differ between PHP and Perl (though haven't done any testing on that).

So when the page asks for a list of the threads that have been read it can either use the cookie set for r.rpol.net (which is correct) or the cookie from rpol.net.

Furthermore we rationalise cookies as we go, but that uses the information we've grabbed from the browser to collate the relevant information and then trim the list.  So we can ask for the read indicator cookie, get the list from rpol.net (the wrong cookie), rationalise it and then set it for r.rpol.net.  Then we've got cookies set for r.rpol.net poisoned with what was retrieved from the rpol.net version of the cookie.

I've done a work-around for the beta site to avoid the cookie conflict but I can't do the same on the responsive site.  I suppose I could just use and set the cookies for rpol.net... will have to contemplate whether that'll cause any issues.  Can't actually think of any issue at the moment.
Skald
moderator, 924 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 08:10
  • msg #467

Re: RPoL Design Update

I did have both sites open the first time I noticed it, but subsequently closed the old site and retried a couple of times and couldn't get the flag to close ... but it might have been too late by then if the cookie had already been broken ?

Edit: just had a new forum thread pop up and have been able to open and view and clear flag on responsive ... so yup, jase is right yet again, it's the old/new/simultaneous trap.  Something to ignore.  ;>
This message was last edited by the user at 14:12, Sun 17 Jan 2021.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 357 posts
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 17:00
  • msg #468

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 464):

Thanks for all the updates, jase, especially the new red rMail notification.

I do feel that the player-view cast list is a step backwards, since it returns Last Login to being automatically viewable (when it previously required a mouseover on responsive), but I appreciate the removal of the groups from the automatic list so I suppose it's a wash in the end. I'll just have to accept that I'm in the minority about wanting stuff less obvious to players, and deal, I guess. =)

(Any kind of rough ETA on having PMs trip Last Logins for GM-controlled characters?)

As a complete aside, just noticed an interesting glitch with the Last Post for characters that have never posted publicly...

quote:
Wed, 31 Dec '69

This message was last edited by the user at 17:06, Sun 17 Jan 2021.
Locke1221
subscriber, 53 posts
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 17:19
  • msg #469

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for the updates Jase, I imagine it's been busy and I appreciate the effort.

Acknowledging that I'm in the minority in regards to last login as well, I do have to say that the current bareness of the Cast List, showing -only- last login and last post is jarring and not terribly attractive.

I also have to put a request forward for Tag to return to being automatically displayed. In my current military games, I use those for player rank, and find that being obvious rather than the players having to mouse over for the dropdown to be far advantageous. I feel like I'm probably not the only one who uses it in some way that feels like it's more integral to the game than either login or last post.

Is there any possibility of GMs getting to select what is visible for their games? Not knowing what sort of coding that would require, I can understand it not being so, but it sounds like a great compromise if it is.
jase
admin, 3799 posts
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Mon 18 Jan 2021
at 04:37
  • msg #470

Re: RPoL Design Update

Forgot to put in my last change notes, posting a private message now updates your "last post" (which will also affect last logon).  A post is a post, just because everyone doesn't have access to it doesn't negate that's the date of your last post.

As for the cast list, I don't disagree that's it's pretty bare now.  That's the problem when we enlarge the font and also start to care about not having some crazy squished view on narrower views.  The only thing I could possibly squeeze in is post count.  Tags can be long and I'm pretty sure it will cause issue if the tag is near maximum length (though I'll double-check).
jase
admin, 3800 posts
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Mon 18 Jan 2021
at 15:13
  • msg #471

Re: RPoL Design Update

Try the cast page now.
  • Changed the way each cell/block is rendered, which will make text wrap rather than potentially overlap other text.  On really narrow screens (or a very long name with no spaces) it'll force the screen to scroll left/right.
  • To give us more room I removed the weekday from the date of last post/logon.
  • Added both post count and character tag columns.  Groups are still hidden (until mouse over/tap).
  • The post count column will automatically hide on small screens (695 pixel with and lower) and instead appear under the mouse/tap section.

Also fixed the 1969/1970 post date (depending on your time zone).  (c;
This message was last edited by the user at 15:19, Mon 18 Jan 2021.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 358 posts
Mon 18 Jan 2021
at 15:23
  • msg #472

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for putting the tags back, jase! \ o /

In regards to PMs tripping last logins...that's not currently working. =( Just tested, using a GM-controlled character and a regular character, and the PM didn't trip Last Post for either, or Last Login for the GM-controlled character. (Obviously, the regular character tripped login like normally).
jase
admin, 3801 posts
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Tue 19 Jan 2021
at 05:51
  • msg #473

Re: RPoL Design Update

Whoops, I was updating the user last logon.  Have now done what I said, posting a private message will update the last post for that character (regardless of who posted it).

So hawk eyed cast-list-watchers beware, GMs posting for a character played by someone else can make the last post be newer than the last logon.  That'll add some more confusion to those trying to figure out who plays what.  (c;

I'm also thinking about making the last logon field be "this week", "this fortnight", "this month", "this quarter", "this year" and "ages ago".  Or something like that.  Apparently we need to go to great length to hide GM controlled PCs.

Was a fair bit of work and pretty pleased with the new cast layout so would appreciate any other feedback.  (c;
nauthiz
subscriber, 698 posts
Tue 19 Jan 2021
at 06:12
  • msg #474

Re: RPoL Design Update

Works good.

The only issue I can forsee is that the date can already cause word wrap making the visible line entry two lines high on narrow screen devices

While I'm thankful that everything is at least top aligned now (vs one of the mockups previously presented where it was the opposite) anything more verbose might make it visually worse unless you force it to stick to one line and horizontally scroll or something.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 359 posts
Tue 19 Jan 2021
at 14:49
  • msg #475

Re: RPoL Design Update

Sweet, thanks jase! Works just like it's supposed to, now. \ o /

Aesthetically, I'm down with the new layout. The four columns give it a balance that it didn't have when there were just two, while providing the information that the majority of people need & obscuring what most people didn't - so it's win-win.

I wouldn't argue with the last login field being something like 'Today', 'This week', 'This month', 'Months ago' for players if you really wanted to go there, but it's probably not necessary now that PMs trip logins. (I'll admit that I *do* wish that PMs could trip logins without tripping last post so that it could be done more surreptitiously - so that GMs could just have all their characters in a PM with each other without it looking like they were all in a PM with each other - but I feel those two things are clearly just inextricably linked with regards to GM-controlled characters, so I'll take what I can get! An obvious PM post that trips login is waaaaay better than a hidden PM post that doesn't.) I do think that keeping the 'Today' is going to be important for people who want to know if someone else has seen a recent post, if you do decide to obfuscate last login dates more.

quote:
Apparently we need to go to great length to hide GM controlled PCs.

Ironically, what necessitated the need for being able to trip last login for GM-controlled PCs with posts of any kind is the first layer of hiding them! =)

Years ago, GM-controlled PCs logged in whenever the GM logged in, then the code started making that last login appear random from the player side, while the GM still saw their characters all log in at the same time*. Which meant that it was necessary to force-update the last login to 'Today' if those characters made a post, because otherwise it looks like a bizarro glitch from the player side and the GM wouldn't have had any idea.

Truthfully, you could do away with that original obfuscation entirely, and it would solve the issue just as much because then GM-controlled characters would just look like active players, instead of needing a way to trip logins for characters that look (to other players) like they've taken a weeks'/months' long powder. =)

* - this is still weird, and for GMs that don't have a friend/spouse/etc that play in their games with them that know their characters, they tend to have no idea that their characters have wonky login times that probably should be tripped so that they don't look inactive.
Low Key
subscriber, 251 posts
Tue 19 Jan 2021
at 15:23
  • msg #476

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks for your work on this Jase, and for not taking 'last logon' away from us players who make use of it.

jase:
I'm also thinking about making the last logon field be "this week", "this fortnight", "this month", "this quarter", "this year" and "ages ago".  Or something like that.  Apparently we need to go to great length to hide GM controlled PCs.


I'd second the idea to add "today" to the options.
Otherwise a lot of functionality to me (as a player) would be lost. (I made a post a while back explaining how/why I use last login as a player. I can repeat the relevant points if that'd be helpful, but I don't want to wall o' text the thread with things I've already said if it isn't helpful to anyone).
This message was last edited by the user at 15:23, Tue 19 Jan 2021.
jase
admin, 3804 posts
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Thu 21 Jan 2021
at 09:35
  • msg #477

Re: RPoL Design Update

After letting it stew in the back of my mind for a few days I've now set the responsive and traditional site to share cookies.  This means you should see the exact same message read/unread over both sites.

Please relog one more time to make sure all the old cookies from the responsive site are cleared.  As always if you're switching browsers/machines it's recommend that you relog to sync up the cookies.
evileeyore
member, 442 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined August 2015
Thu 21 Jan 2021
at 20:49
  • msg #478

Re: RPoL Design Update

Low Key:
I'd second the idea to add "today" to the options.

I'm in this camp.  I use Player login dates to determine if we're waiting on someone to login to post so I don't spotlight hog or step on people's toes by post more prolifically than they are able.

If I see they've been in repeatedly and said nothing, I'll happily steal all their spotlights and step on all the toes.


Side note, what does Last Login measure?  Last time logged into RPoL?  Last time they opened threads to that game?  Last time they posted?
bigbadron
moderator, 15992 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 21 Jan 2021
at 21:02

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 478):

It reports the last time they opened that particular game.
evileeyore
member, 443 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined August 2015
Thu 21 Jan 2021
at 22:09
  • msg #480

Re: RPoL Design Update

bigbadron:
It reports the last time they opened that particular game.

Thanks!  That's what I hoped.
jase
admin, 3811 posts
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Sun 24 Jan 2021
at 05:04
  • msg #481

Re: RPoL Design Update

Small update popped on.

  • Removed javascript requirement for the "wanted" forums search box.  Now just uses HTML, a checkbox and the CSS general sibling selector.  Same as what the menus use on small/mobile screens.
  • Removed most usages of "document.write".
  • Added SLA Industries to the dice roller (as per that thread, Cyberpunk RED coming as soon as I can figure it).
  • Fixed (presumably) some small stuff as I encountered/spotted it.

jase
admin, 3815 posts
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Mon 25 Jan 2021
at 09:50
  • msg #482

Re: RPoL Design Update

Popped on another update.  Small tweak to the CSS colours so update your themes when you can.  You'll have some minor overzealous border colouring for the below until you do.
  • Improved(?) the mutli-private window.  Also removed table usage.
  • Also tweaked the selection toggles for the portrait searching.
  • Changed the user preferences on/off selections to toggles while I was at it.

SunRuanEr
subscriber, 362 posts
Mon 25 Jan 2021
at 13:43
  • msg #483

Re: RPoL Design Update

Awesome.

Do we need to relog again? I'm seeing instances of unread threads not keeping the unread message flag, now that I wasn't seeing before this morning. Like when I open a forum, read one thread with new messages but not another that also has new messages, but then go back to the main menu - the forum is no longer popping red even though there are still unread messages in it.

That's not an entirely new thing I don't think, but I'm pretty sure that for a while here recently (at least after the recent cookie synch) that wasn't happening... (Or I could be losing my mind, always a possibility!)
jase
admin, 3816 posts
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Mon 25 Jan 2021
at 15:27

Re: RPoL Design Update

Shouldn't be a need to relog.  I had odd message indicators today when I switched between devices, which should generally be expected, but I'm still keeping an eye on it.

I have an idea floating around in my head to detect when you switch devices and update the read cookies like you've done a relog.  Pondering it for a bit longer before I pull the trigger on that.

Also just updated the main menu a tad, the "main menu" menu links should now jump to the various spots on the screen (if you've got enough listed to cause a scroll) plus it'll hide the menu items you don't have any of (i.e. won't display a discussion forum link if you don't have any discussion forums stickied).
nauthiz
subscriber, 702 posts
Mon 25 Jan 2021
at 23:53
  • msg #485

Re: RPoL Design Update

A fix for the cookie issue would certainly solve what seems to be the most frequently brought up issue.
jase
admin, 3821 posts
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Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 06:06

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok I think I've got the view impersonation and private lines (which includes private groups and language lines) sorted.  About the most complicated thing I've done here.

When viewing a thread with private groups it will only reveal the lines to players who have a character in that group.  Basically if a character would qualify as a recipient in a private line but they're not a participant in thread to then it'll skip them as a valid recipient.  This includes "not".  So if you say "not woof" but woof isn't a party to the thread then it'll skip excluding them, so the owner of woof will still see the line.

This flows to view impersonating as well.  Even further, if you view as woof and woof isn't part of the thread then you're going to see absolutely no private lines and all languages will be scrambled.  There is a minor exception to this when you're a GM and using "not" but you'll see that.

The preview notice will let you know if you've opted to view as a character who can't see the thread.

I also fixed private lines and previewing for private messages, same rules apply as above.

As mentioned it's very complicated so let me know if anything awry happens.

Also removed some more tables before I tackled the above.  Little bit in rMail and info screens, you shouldn't notice much change there as the visual output should be the same.
Starchaser
member, 848 posts
Shoda mo tsumoreba taibok
Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 06:19
  • msg #487

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 486):

Thats much better for the preview as but I think the languages preview might still be broken. If I preview as the poster with a language group tag then his speech is legible. If I preview as another character of the same language group then the speech is gobbledygook to her.
jase
admin, 3822 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
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Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 07:48

Re: RPoL Design Update

That's by design, check the note at the top.

If it wasn't that way then you'd know who was in the private group, which has its members hidden.
JohnB
supporter, 2114 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 08:20
  • msg #489

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Ok I think I've got the view impersonation and private lines (which includes private groups and language lines) sorted.  About the most complicated thing I've done here.


Thank you  :)  I might not be as active as I was, but I appreciate the work you do to keep the site developing and growing.  All power to your elbow :)
jase
admin, 3823 posts
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Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 08:54

Re: RPoL Design Update

To further clarify "preview as", unless you're a GM it's severely limited when using private groups (and languages, which are just a special way of addressing groups).

In a nutshell to avoid revealing members of a private group it'll assume the "worst".

That is if you say "private to group xxx" it'll assume the player is not a member.  If you say "private to not group xxx" it'll assume they are a member.

So, if you preview as "Bob" who is or isn't a member of the private group "Whatever" (the result is the same regardless whether he's a member of the private group):

Private lineVisibility
Private to BobShown
Private to group WhateverHidden
Private to not group WhateverHidden
Private to Bob; group WhateverShown
Private to Bob; not group WhateverHidden
Language WhateverScrambled

Also, if you preview as Bob and he doesn't have access to the thread then everything will be hidden/scrambled anyway.  Kind of a moot point as they can't even open the thread, but the permission check figures the character has no access to the thread so hides everything.  Behaviour of this could be changed and instead provide a theoretical view if they did have access, might be slightly helpful of a GM plans on moving the thread group after (or giving the character access to that group).
nauthiz
subscriber, 706 posts
Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 17:17
  • msg #491

Re: RPoL Design Update

That table helps clarify things.  I appreciate the inclusion.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 366 posts
Sat 30 Jan 2021
at 19:26
  • msg #492

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks jase, that's awesome! Looking forward to testing it out. =)
Kat'
member, 53 posts
Thu 4 Feb 2021
at 07:41
  • msg #493

Re: RPoL Design Update

I gave a quick shot at the new design. I like it for the most part, it is easier to read, more modern, and has a more intuitive interface.

Throwing a few suggestions around:
- Make portraits about 50% bigger; they look so much tinier compared to the new text boxes!
- Dice roller UI could be a bit more compact in order to fit on a single page

And a bug, I've been granted lurker access to a game, I can see it just fine with the old design, but not with the new one, it just says that there are no messages for this game.
link to another game
ladysharlyne
subscriber, 3007 posts
Member before Oct 2005
The glass is half full
Thu 4 Feb 2021
at 17:30
  • msg #494

Re: RPoL Design Update

I checked that link out, and it was fine, probably the threads are in group 1 or more.
LonePaladin
member, 858 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Fri 5 Feb 2021
at 02:58
  • msg #495

Re: RPoL Design Update

Can we get some more themes migrated to the responsive site? I've really gotten used to the Dark Purple theme here -- it's the color I associate with RPoL -- and the idea of trying to manually duplicate it over there is daunting.
jase
admin, 3825 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
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Sun 7 Feb 2021
at 10:08

Re: RPoL Design Update

We shrink the portraits 50% on the thread list as it makes for a nice reduced size scaling (some machines/browsers don't do it very well if you set it to 66% or 75%).  If we increased the size it'd be double what it currently is, I think it'd be too large and take up too much space on the left.

Have already shrunk the roller but agreed it's still too long, will look into that.

Fixed threads for lurkers, the access routine it wasn't retrieving lurker access at all.  Was a quick fix so hopefully didn't break something else.

To create a purple (or any coloured) theme I'm going to go off an use the same theme creation tool you're using... so maybe the "daunting" task of creating a dozen different colours could not all be left up to me...?  (c;
This message was last edited by the user at 15:27, Sun 07 Feb 2021.
jase
admin, 3826 posts
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Mon 8 Feb 2021
at 13:02

Re: RPoL Design Update

Have tweaked the die roller.  Not as spacious as before but that's what you get when you cut out space!  (c;
Zag24
supporter, 672 posts
Mon 8 Feb 2021
at 13:31
  • msg #498

Re: RPoL Design Update

If you're looking to shrink that page, you could put what is currently Step 3 first, with one option "Manual," and only show Steps 1 & 2 if that's selected.  The rest of Step 3 -- the additional box to the right and the descriptive text below -- would only be shown if it isn't "Manual," so it doesn't save a lot when on Manual, but it saves a little.

You could also modernize the look by removing the lines between the sections and, instead, use background colors to delineate as you've done all over, which shrinks it further.
Starchaser
member, 855 posts
Shoda mo tsumoreba taibok
Mon 8 Feb 2021
at 16:55
  • msg #499

Re: RPoL Design Update

Hi I don't know if this is already in your bugs list but I have noticed that if I have a game with, say, four pages and navigate to page 2, the links at the top that show 'Page 1 of x' and then the page numbers doesn't change. It always says page 1 of and page 1 is highlighted / not linked. So to get to page 1 again you have to click on the game menu. Not really a biggie but just thought I'd mention it.
jase
admin, 3827 posts
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Tue 9 Feb 2021
at 04:46

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Zag24 (msg # 498):

Some of the options in step 2 are available when rolling a system (record die springs to mind) so not quite as simple.  Collapsing sections can be quite helpful, not sure if it might end up being annoying in the roller though.

I looked at not using the boxes but I found you needed to use more white space to compensate, so it ended up about the same height.  If it "modernises" the page then happy to do it for the sake of that, though I'm not sure why a border isn't considered modern (but really, what do I know?!).


In reply to Starchaser (msg # 499):

There's a few spots that page numbers are wrong or poorly formatted but I hadn't picked that one, thanks.  Fixed.
jase
admin, 3829 posts
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Fri 12 Feb 2021
at 14:29

Re: RPoL Design Update

Small update on.  Fixed a few bugs I found.

Also made a teensy tiny change to the compose screen when replying to a public thread or reply all to a private.  Alas it does rely on javascript but most do have it enabled.  See if you can spot it (and let me know what you think).  (c;
nauthiz
subscriber, 708 posts
Fri 12 Feb 2021
at 15:40
  • msg #502

Re: RPoL Design Update

That effect is pretty fancy.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 368 posts
Fri 12 Feb 2021
at 15:51
  • msg #503

Re: RPoL Design Update

*squeeeeeeeeee*

Normal reading order! Yaaaaaaaay!

(and a good clue for when I screw up and fail to hit the proper 'Reply' option, too!)

Thanks Jase =)
jase
admin, 3830 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 14 Feb 2021
at 13:06

Re: RPoL Design Update

Well... it's more than a pretty effect and reading order.  (c;

Posting a reply will now open the compose screen at the bottom of the current page.  Instant reply window and the current page in its entirety is available to you.

Being me I've now gone one further.

Hitting the quote or reply links on an individual message will now append that quote/reply at the bottom of your current compose screen.  This no longer needs a new page to load plus you can do 5 quotes and 5 replies for a single message.  But not 6, because that would be silly!

Those watching closely will notice a slight delay when pressing quote, that's because it's got to retrieve the post text from the server again to prune out any unwanted text (private lines, edit comments etc).

Not sure how much either are used but I hope it makes life easier and faster for everyone.  You can return to the old behaviour by right-clicking on any of the links and opening in a new tab.
Ski-Bird
subscriber, 158 posts
Sun 14 Feb 2021
at 13:11
  • msg #505

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
... you can do 5 quotes and 5 replies for a single message. ...

Not sure how much either are used but I hope it makes life easier and faster for everyone.


I do this quiet a bit, include more than one quote in a single post, I mean.  Sometimes I'll have an NPC that is responding to a few different PCs and it's nice to call attention to what they are answering.  The old way involved a fair bit of copy/paste and manually creating the [quote] tags ... this is much easier.

 
SunRuanEr:
Thanks Jase =)


Seconded.
LonePaladin
member, 864 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Sun 14 Feb 2021
at 18:16
  • msg #506

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Hitting the quote or reply links on an individual message will now append that quote/reply at the bottom of your current compose screen.

Would it be possible to have that quote button look for highlighted text, and only quote that part?
jase
admin, 3831 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 14 Feb 2021
at 23:55

Re: RPoL Design Update

Unfortunately not, as mentioned the system has to retrieve the saved message from the server.  The source can be very different to what you're seeing (or what others should be seeing).  Tables, grids, colouring, private lines, secret lines, languages, lists, images... the list goes on.

If it was done that way then you'd lose all formatting (tables and lists would become a mass of text) and all private, secret and language lines would be included as you see them.

Best option, keeping those issues in mind is to go to the message, copy the text, hit quote and then replace with your clipboard.
LonePaladin
member, 865 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Mon 15 Feb 2021
at 04:00
  • msg #508

Re: RPoL Design Update

Suspected as much. Having the older messages visible will facilitate that, so it's good.
ladysharlyne
subscriber, 3018 posts
Member before Oct 2005
The glass is half full
Sat 20 Feb 2021
at 11:44
  • msg #509

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 504):

I have tried this and it works brilliantly thank you so much for this feature to quote more than one post.  As always you give us your best and you are much appreciated for it.  It is a big help to me! x
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 374 posts
Tue 23 Feb 2021
at 20:22
  • msg #510

Re: RPoL Design Update

Noticed a bit of weirdness recently, not sure for how long it's been going on but was at least happening yesterday and today.

Hitting 'Post a Reply' at the bottom of a thread is auto-populating the Subject from the post at the *TOP* of the viewable page into the post window, instead of the title from the most-recent post in the thread. Not sure if this is because the title used to pull from the topmost post (when the recent posts were below the post window in reverse order) or what, but I've caught it happening twice now.

Edit for clarity: When it just happened to me, I was trying to reply to post #153 of a thread, but it pulled the Subject title from post #119, which was the topmost visible post of that page when in the reply composition window.
This message was last edited by the user at 20:24, Tue 23 Feb 2021.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 375 posts
Fri 26 Feb 2021
at 17:01
  • msg #511

Re: RPoL Design Update

Got some more weirdness out of nowhere.

So, PMs now trip Last Post*, and for GM-controlled characters (NPC or PC) trip Last Login on the cast list that players see (which is good, since that's back on the non-mouseover cast list), but for some reason...that's not staying in at least one instance I've found.

Yesterday, a round of PMs tripped a last login for GM-controlled characters in a new game and turned their Last Login to (as it should have) 'Today'.

Today, every last one of those GM-controlled characters, all of whom are showing a Last Post of yesterday still (because of the PM that was sent that tripped their login), are showing Last Logins of 'Never'. Yesterday, the day they made their PM post, they were showing Last Logins of 'Today'. I'm not seeing this behavior in games where characters have all previously posted in public threads, so I suspect this is somehow related to having ONLY posted in PMs but I could be wrong. At the very least, where I can verify, in every game with a GM-controlled character that HAS posted in a public thread, they are not reverting to a 'Never' Last Login.

*-Additionally, PMs are also not tripping Last Post consistently. Some player-owned characters ARE having their Last Post tripped by PMing with the GM (either in their RTJ thread or otherwise). Most are not. (Roughly 1/3 of the player characters are having their Last Post count their PMs with the GM, the other 2/3 still show 'Never' as their Last Post, despite being deep in discussion with the GM.) GM-controlled characters that PM only other GM-controlled characters are NOT having their Last Post tripped at all. If a GM-controlled character starts a PM with player characters, it will trip Last Post for the player character, but not the GM character. If a player character starts the PM with a GM-controlled character, and the GM character responds, it will trip their Last Post and Last Login, but apparently only for the day the post was made.

I know you've put a lot of work into trying to fix the system that attempts to obfuscate GM-controlled characters, jase, but I'm beginning to feel like the best fix is to undo all of it and revert it back to the old years-ago situation of GM-controlled characters logging in when the GM does. The system that 'scrambles' their Last Login seems like it's causing more harm than good by creating these weird discrepancies. At the very least, it seems easier on you. =(
byzantinex
member, 208 posts
Sun 28 Feb 2021
at 13:08
  • msg #512

Re: RPoL Design Update

Strange issue that's easily overcome but annoying. On mobile (Android, Chrome) whenever I click to post, the subject and post as boxes are hidden. I can turn my phone sideways (landscape) and it shows back up, and it remains visible once I turn my phone portrait mode again.

Like I said, small issue, but didn't see anyone else point it out yet. Thanks a ton for this awesome website and all the work you do Jase!
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 377 posts
Wed 17 Mar 2021
at 13:18
  • msg #513

Re: RPoL Design Update

Small weirdness this morning, not majorly concerning, but felt like a different behavior than usual.

Was working on a post and decided to back out of it, so went to hit back, got the whole expected 'confirm you want to leave the page' popup and did that, then it tripped a solid gray page with a 'Confirm Form Resubmission' (this is where things start to get unusual, since I'm pretty sure that usually confirming leaving the page with the popup just took us back to the thread before). So I did...

...and it popped up the thread with the reply posting window containing the entirety of the last post I had made in the thread days ago as if it had just been written and was ready to repost. o.O

As an aside, can confirm now with regards to post #511 above that GM-controlled characters do NOT have their last logins reset to 'Never' at midnight once they have made posts in public threads. It continues to reset to 'Never' at midnight for GM-controlled characters that haven't posted in public threads.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 384 posts
Wed 21 Apr 2021
at 22:53
  • msg #514

Minor glitch

Minor glitch noticed -

Have noticed a PM thread that has turned to all monotype font, seems roughly related to one party of the thread posting a table in a post (using a self-made grid of | and __ markers and the <tt> option, which apparently forces things into tables in responsive, which is sad but besides the point here...). Every post since that one in the thread is in monotype font.

There's no monotype in the post with the table, and nothing appears in the reply window to indicate that posts are going to be in monotype font, but they've definitely all been entirely in monotype since the post with the table.
Skald
moderator, 934 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 15 May 2021
at 05:26

Minor glitch

jase - possible issue with the way the responsive (and old site ??) handles daylight saving per discussion in this thread here:

link to a message in this forum

Seems mainly to be a problem with times on the Cast list, which made me think it could be something to do with the code that fudges time for GMs OR it might very well be a system/browser issue ... but figured you'd able to pronounce definitively cos I can't.  <grins>

Since we don't do Daylight Saving time adjustments where I live, it all looks fine to me, of course.  :>
evileeyore
member, 504 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined August 2015
Fri 23 Jul 2021
at 19:12
  • msg #516

New site design

Any chance we can get a "Mark AS Read" button at the top of the page too?  Quite often I just hit that to mark everything read without ever opening a thread in a forum (and having to scroll down is just so passe... :P ).

It's an ease of life feature I liked from the old site, I've finally decided to switch to the responsive site and it's the one thing I miss.  (So far)
nauthiz
subscriber, 724 posts
Fri 23 Jul 2021
at 19:21
  • msg #517

Re: RPoL Design Update

If you tap/click the "dice"/"this forum" drop-down menu, the option is also located there, which will cost you an extra click but save you a scroll.
evileeyore
member, 505 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined August 2015
Fri 23 Jul 2021
at 19:44
  • msg #518

Re: RPoL Design Update

nauthiz:
If you tap/click the "dice"/"this forum" drop-down menu, the option is also located there, which will cost you an extra click but save you a scroll.

Awesome!  I'm fine with an extra click... that scrolling was just soooo tiring!  ;)
evileeyore
member, 509 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Joined 20150819
Sat 24 Jul 2021
at 01:16
  • msg #519

Re: RPoL Design Update

Since I'm trying to fully explore the responsive site, including on Mobile...  any chance we can get a choice between dark, neutral, and light colours for these button Icons:

https://i.imgur.com/LDFM2f1.jpg

Because on my theme they look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/BwEZvEK.jpg

Which I can survive, but it took some fiddling around on my phone to even realize those buttons existed (at first I made the header backgrounds the same shade as the button icons without realizing it).  It's fine on my preferred browsing experience (Glorious PC Master Race), but like I said, on my phone I was lost trying to find stuff when I first implemented my "UltraDarkBumblebee" theme.

Also, anyway to get teh info here:

https://i.imgur.com/UNZuhmS.jpg

... to spread out a bit so those forums look more like this:

https://i.imgur.com/tcBywnW.jpg


I'm not even saying it has to be some autosizing thing (though, you know, that would be sweet), but if we could set a maximum height for those forum buttons... or something.  It looks pretty good on mobile, it's only a little "overly large", but I understand "not all devices work the same", etc.
Aryiea
member, 8 posts
Sat 24 Jul 2021
at 14:45
  • msg #520

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
To create a purple (or any coloured) theme I'm going to go off an use the same theme creation tool you're using.


Will there be a way to use the images from the 'pastel' theme on the OG site on the responsive site at some point? I can load in the colors easily enough but I'm wondering about the awesome 50's diner logo and background image, lol. I'm sure it isn't a priority but I'm curious if we can expect to see that functionality one day :)
ladysharlyne
subscriber, 3141 posts
Sat 24 Jul 2021
at 15:10
  • [deleted]
  • msg #521

Re: RPoL Design Update

This message was deleted by the user at 15:12, Sat 24 July 2021.
Imladir
member, 56 posts
Mon 27 Sep 2021
at 01:37
  • msg #522

Re: RPoL Design Update

When using the quite reply thing, the title of the new post is set to the same as the one of the first post on the current page.

In most cases, it's not a problem since the title doesn't really change. But when the title of the thread or even just the title of the messages change (for example to track locations in a character's thread) it's a bit annoying, particularly since it doesn't really make any sense.

Could you make it so the new post's title is by default either the thread's title or the same as the last message in the thread?
Xenoviel
subscriber, 35 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Lexi (she/they)
Wed 22 Jun 2022
at 17:15
  • msg #523

Re: RPoL Design Update

With a little help from a friend who has a custom theme that makes the visual appearance of the responsive site easier to work with, I have been exclusively using the Responsive site for several weeks now. In that time, I have only one real gripe that isn't "I've been using the old site for years and muscle memory keeps expecting links to be where they are on the old site."

My one gripe is explicitly for using the site on PC with a mouse. When visiting the cast list, some of the information is hidden by a little dropdown section. This is good because it keeps things less cluttered and easier to read. However, when mousing over entries on the list, there is a faint delay before those drop-down sections automatically expand. Then the mouse moves away from them, there is a similar delay before they automatically close.

I have been finding this automatic function to be very frustrating to use with a mouse on PC. What keeps happening is that I inadvertently mouse over several cast members while moving the cursor to the character I want details on. Some of these will expand because the cursor touched them. This moves the list below them down. Then, I get the cursor to where I think I need it and the entries above it close, moving the list up again. This leads to my cursor winding up one or more entries down from where I wanted it to be and with an entry expanded that I didn't need to see. I can't keep entries expanded (e.g. to look at two characters' Groups simultaneously).

On mobile, the function of this page is great, because they expand when you tap them. The trouble is that you can't click them to toggle whether they are expanded or not on PC.
Chernobyl
supporter, 168 posts
Area of desolate waste,
Mutation Central.
Sun 4 Dec 2022
at 03:34
  • msg #524

Re: RPoL Design Update

Has something changed regarding the style text feature?

I used to be able to cut/paste dice roller results for multiple rolls and tag outside with <orange> tags and the whole rolls showed in orange. Now it seems to break and an unwritten class='helphover'> appears after the first roll.
locojedi
member, 218 posts
Sat 7 Jan 2023
at 16:18
  • msg #525

Re: RPoL Design Update

Alright, alright, alright... I'll admit that I've been using the responsive site on a new phone after years of dragging my feet and griping. It's really great.

/ME eats his hat, red feather and all!

Could we have a toggle in the Preferences tab that would allow those of us who've taken the plunge, to hide the Thank You box? After a year of seeing it several times a day, it's gotten slightly annoying.

quote:
Thank you for testing out the new responsive site for RPoL.  If you wish to submit feedback or ask questions please visit RPoL Development.


Thanks again, and hello from a newly converted Grognard to the new-fangled website!
Zag24
supporter, 753 posts
Sat 7 Jan 2023
at 17:04
  • msg #526

Re: RPoL Design Update

I guess I see how that might become annoying on a phone, where screen real estate is a lot more precious.  I exclusively use the new site and I almost never notice it.  (... on my 33-inch screen)
steelsmiter
member, 2190 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sat 7 Jan 2023
at 18:53
  • msg #527

Re: RPoL Design Update

Zag24:
I guess I see how that might become annoying on a phone, where screen real estate is a lot more precious.  I exclusively use the new site and I almost never notice it.  (... on my 33-inch screen)

I use my laptop exclusively and I hate it. I don't mind that people don't hate it, but it's nice to have options. That being said, I haven't bothered to attack it with ScriptSafe like I have some of the things on other sites that won't go away, but it would be nice to not have to if it got annoying enough.
nauthiz
subscriber, 760 posts
Sat 7 Jan 2023
at 19:30
  • msg #528

Re: RPoL Design Update

I honestly had to go back and look to remember where it was located and how much room it takes up when viewing the site on my phone.

Being able to toggle it off would be beneficial, but I guess I'm so used to the general design of many mobile websites cramming junk everywhere around the content you're actually visiting the site for that something as simple as the Thank You message just became part of the background and ceased to exist as far as my noticing it goes.
eduard
member, 3 posts
Tue 7 Mar 2023
at 15:30
  • msg #529

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not sure if this a bug -- but removing a forum from the list you want to follow on r.rpol.net did not stop emails, and did not update user preferences on rpol.net
Skald
moderator, 976 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 8 Mar 2023
at 06:35

Re: RPoL Design Update

Might be related to the old/new site cookies problems ... thought that was limited to new/read messages indicators, but it's not a stretch to think it could be working out forums too.

Extracts from various messages from jase on the subject (apologies for any repetition in there as I was cherry picking messages to try to include all the pertinent points):

    As pointed out by others this will probably be due to cookies between the two sites getting confused.  Relog will help, also might seem odd but log out of rpol.net and just stay logged in to r.rpol.net.
    -----
    Make sure you log out of rpol.net and www.rpol.net completely and then re/log on to r.rpol.net.  If you don't you'll be getting cookies randomly from either rpol.net or r.rpol.net and it's pretty unpredictable.
    -----
    Log out of rpol.net, then www.rpol.net (if you ever use it but probably safe to check to be sure) and then finally relog on the responsive site.

    Doing it in any other order won't work due to how browsers handle cookie inheritance.  If logout doesn't work then manually clear the cookies from your browser as they must be stuck for some reason.
    -----
    r.rpol.net sets cookies for the domain r.rpol.net while rpol.net (and the www variant) sets cookies for plain rpol.net.

    Unfortunately when browsers retrieve settings for subdomains they'll also grab any cookies for the parent domain.  So when a webpage at r.rpol.net requests a list of the cookies it'll return a combination of r.rpol.net and rpol.net cookies.  As far as I can tell in a random order, and the order also seems to differ between PHP and Perl (though haven't done any testing on that).

    So when the page asks for a list of the threads that have been read it can either use the cookie set for r.rpol.net (which is correct) or the cookie from rpol.net.

    Furthermore we rationalise cookies as we go, but that uses the information we've grabbed from the browser to collate the relevant information and then trim the list.  So we can ask for the read indicator cookie, get the list from rpol.net (the wrong cookie), rationalise it and then set it for r.rpol.net.  Then we've got cookies set for r.rpol.net poisoned with what was retrieved from the rpol.net version of the cookie.

If logging out doesn't help, then my second guess is that old site and responsive site might independently handle game/forum lists - so try setting preferences for both ... and then logout of everything anyway to try to get it all to stick.
locojedi
member, 229 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2023
at 16:16
  • msg #531

Re: RPoL Design Update

locojedi:
Could we have a toggle in the Preferences tab?

quote:
Thank you for testing out the new responsive site for RPoL.  If you wish to submit feedback or ask questions please visit RPoL Development.


Bump.

I tried blocking the element, but it seems to break other things like the menus on my device.
jase
admin, 3835 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 3 Nov 2023
at 08:04

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yeah.. so... uh.. ahem....

Anyway...
  • Weird 'Search Games' behavior. - Thanks, fixed.
  • Responsive Site: Private Message Boxes list truncated. - Pretty sure this will be due to the list of valid recipients being improved in this version.  That is, any character that doesn't have access to the group won't be able to see the thread so isn't on the list.
  • Replying in threads with multiple characters. - 1,000 pixels (i.e. 1 screen) high clearly wasn't enough, have increased the maximum height to 9999px (about 8 screens worth of characters) and if that's not enough then get some therapy for your GM.
  • Feature Request; Known Word function in Language Groups. - Character names populate the "known words" but the characters have to be a member of the group that the thread is addressed to.  The list skips anything that's 1 or 2 characters.  I'm happy to entertain adding more functionality, improvements, and minor tweaks but altering its current obfuscation isn't appropriate as it has been in use for some time.  Also remember if you really want to control it then use "to group" and "to not group".
  • Buy jase a coffee! - Gosh how I love coffee.
  • Group Selection on GM Menu. - Kept the current layout for small screens and reverted to the old for large.  Not truly responsive mind you, just two big ugly layouts on the page that are shown/hidden depending on screen size.
  • Be able to browse a forum without subscribing. - Happy to change the default behaviour if that's what the majority want.  Maybe it's polling time.
  • Responsive Site: Page Titles. - Did some, not exactly what you asked but did some and will look at messing with it some more.
  • Feature Request: 'To' line in PM thread details. - No idea why that wasn't there.  Added and tweaked the info so it's never "multiple recipients" and instead shows the full list with any overflow cut off with ellipsis… but hovering will show the full list!


Additionally…
  • Game portraits!  GMs can now upload (up to) 20 portraits that their players can utilise.  I'd only recommend using this if all your players use the responsive site, anyone who uses the "old" site will get an error.  Limited slots because you should still be contributing to the portrait gallery!
  • Removed last logon and groups for players in the cast list.  Seemed a simple solution for a lot of anxiety.
  • GM map uploads / management (as well as being responsive) now shows a map thumbnail with "lightbox" (i.e. click to enlarge).
  • Rewrote so so many GM screens to be responsive, or at least updated them to be in keeping with the rest of the new layout.  In doing all of that horridness I remembered why I stopped... errr, just a little while ago.  Ugh.
  • You can now close the responsive site notification.  You've probably been nagged enough.
  • Note to a comment I saw somewhere - The inline quote / reply won't change the subject for the message you're posting.  It may seem a little peculiar but your response is actually to the thread and will continue on from the last subject in said thread.  Sure you can quote / reply to particular messages earlier on but that's to insert content into your message, you're not directly responding to that thread.  Also, if you use multiple quotes / replies which one is it going to use; first or last?
  • Added some more map/image caching tweaks for map etc changes but a hater's going t… browser's going to cache (again, in response to a comment I've lost).
  • Fixed Wiki issues when linking to articles with special characters in them.  Now trims off more illegal characters to provide a more stable link.  Single quote was the biggest issue and was truncating an article name at the quote.
  • Fixed/changed/tweaked a lot and now, my winged monkeys, you get to test it out.  Good luck!  you'll need it

I've still got a bit of catching up to do but I think I've gotten most of the big ticket items, or at least what I fancied to do.
nauthiz
subscriber, 781 posts
Fri 3 Nov 2023
at 11:28
  • msg #533

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Game portraits!  GMs can now upload (up to) 20 portraits that their players can utilise.  I'd only recommend using this if all your players use the responsive site, anyone who uses the "old" site will get an error.  Limited slots because you should still be contributing to the portrait gallery!


Unexpected very cool feature addition!

Also, does this mean whatever the technical issue that had stopped the portrait team from processing submissions is fixed?
locojedi
member, 231 posts
Fri 3 Nov 2023
at 13:58
  • msg #534

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
You can now close the responsive site notification.  You've probably been nagged enough.

Excellent! You just made my whole day!!! Thanks for all the upgrades. Enjoy your coffee.
Zag24
supporter, 778 posts
Fri 3 Nov 2023
at 14:55
  • msg #535

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks!  Two of those were my request so I feel especially proud to have contributed in a small way.  Also, this reminds me that I haven't bought you a coffee in a while, so I will go buy another.

Thanks so much, jase, for all you do and for providing us this free site, amazingly devoid of ads, Facebook tracking, etc.

Zag
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 533 posts
Fri 3 Nov 2023
at 17:19
  • msg #536

Re: RPoL Design Update

Awesome work, Jase!

jase:
Group Selection on GM Menu. - Kept the current layout for small screens and reverted to the old for large.  Not truly responsive mind you, just two big ugly layouts on the page that are shown/hidden depending on screen size.

So, I'm not a huge fan of this, but it's not awful and I'm willing to suck it up since other people like it...

But, if you get a chance, could you make the checkbox grid for regular Groups function like it does for Language Groups? (In the Private/Language Groups section, when you hover over a box it highlights the name of both the character AND the corresponding Group # that align with where your mouse is - which makes it easier to not screw up what box is being checked. Edit Groups (despite returning to the checkbox grid) doesn't have that bonus screw-up prevention.

jase:
Feature Request: 'To' line in PM thread details. - No idea why that wasn't there.  Added and tweaked the info so it's never "multiple recipients" and instead shows the full list with any overflow cut off with ellipsis� but hovering will show the full list![/list]

YAY! Thank you.

jase:
Additionally�
Game portraits!  GMs can now upload (up to) 20 portraits that their players can utilise.  I'd only recommend using this if all your players use the responsive site, anyone who uses the "old" site will get an error.  Limited slots because you should still be contributing to the portrait gallery!

Fantastic - can't wait to check this one out! (Edit: Just...as soon as I figure out how. I'm not seeing an option to do this on the GM Menu... Nevermind, found it!)

Post-test edit: All right, now that I figured out how to upload an image, and found an image of the appropriate size...it's showing as a broken link in the upload page, and on the selection page, and when test-posted with the new uploaded portrait, it's the old red-silhouette "Who is this masked person?" portrait. I'm definitely on responsive, and uploaded the image myself so I know it went through (as far as the page for doing that would tell me), so either something's still not working there, or I need to do something else in order to make it start working...

jase:
Removed last logon and groups for players in the cast list.  Seemed a simple solution for a lot of anxiety.

SWEET BABY JESUS. Thank you, jase. THANK YOU SO MUCH. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
Edit: Incredibly sad to note that this is only on the responsive site, and since people can still use the old site (and you can't tell which of your players are using which site), the anxiety/issues/general PITA-ness is still there. Any chance this can be implemented on BOTH sites, Jase?
This message was last edited by the user at 18:34, Fri 03 Nov 2023.
jase
admin, 3836 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 4 Nov 2023
at 01:39

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ugh, forgot about all the skulduggery I had to go to get responsive to work (as an independent site) while accessing the old/main site's data.  Did another quick hack, hopefully you can see the game portraits now.

The old site will eventually go, responsive is the new code that will eventually get rolled into the main site once it's ready.  Responsive is where all edits and changes are done.

Other replies to come when I've got some more time.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 534 posts
Sat 4 Nov 2023
at 01:46
  • msg #538

Re: RPoL Design Update

10-4.

Confirmed that I can see the uploaded game portrait, now. Fixed!
jase
admin, 3837 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 4 Nov 2023
at 04:15

Minor glitch

SunRuanEr:
jase:
Group Selection on GM Menu. - Kept the current layout for small screens and reverted to the old for large.  Not truly responsive mind you, just two big ugly layouts on the page that are shown/hidden depending on screen size.

So, I'm not a huge fan of this...

Who says you can't have it both ways?  Enjoy.

nauthiz:
does this mean whatever the technical issue that had stopped the portrait team from processing submissions is fixed?

Technical?  Nay, there was a manual bottleneck in the process and I've removed it completely.  It was me!
This message was last edited by the user at 04:16, Sat 04 Nov 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 535 posts
Sat 4 Nov 2023
at 04:39
  • msg #540

Minor glitch

jase:
Who says you can't have it both ways?  Enjoy.


Sweet! \o/

Both ways AND a bonus safety-highlight. You're on a roll today, good sir!
Imladir
member, 78 posts
Sat 4 Nov 2023
at 19:55
  • msg #541

New site design

I bump this regarding a previous request (in #522):

quote:
When using the quite reply thing, the title of the new post is set to the same as the one of the first post on the current page.

In most cases, it's not a problem since the title doesn't really change. But when the title of the thread or even just the title of the messages change (for example to track locations in a character's thread) it's a bit annoying, particularly since it doesn't really make any sense.

Could you make it so the new post's title is by default either the thread's title or the same as the last message in the thread?


And while I’m at it… link to a message in this forum ?

quote:
The rolls in the responsive site can be shown as a text with the result and a tooltip with all the details of the roll thanks to a code like {roll=1581725126.58717.339842}.

Could we have the possibility to create ourselves tooltips? With something like, maybe inspired by the code for the quote we'd have something like {tooltip foo}details explaining that foo is obviously bar{/tooltip}.


Obviously not a huge thing, but it could be cool! Even better if it could show images, but… I won’t be greedy. Much.



(Oh and it’s not a short reply despite the quotes. See, there’s lots of text… I’m going to have to add some Lorem Ipsum if you insist…
Fine, you asked for it.
"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.")

jase
admin, 3841 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 5 Nov 2023
at 07:11

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Imladir (msg # 541):

I did address that, inline replies follow on from the last message in the thread so it'll inherit that subject.  But I now see there's a bug where it didn't, so fixed.

I do also notice that opening the quote/reply link a new window does inherit the subject you're directly replying to... will need to think which way we want it to behave and standardise if possible.
 
Personal tooltips would be possible but we'd have to differentiate it from "official" tips.  I think I've already snuck enough responsive-only tweaks for now.

Currently need to concentrate on finalising any layout issues and, ugh, recreating themes.
Imladir
member, 79 posts
Sun 5 Nov 2023
at 12:36
  • msg #543

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
I did address that, inline replies follow on from the last message in the thread so it'll inherit that subject.  But I now see there's a bug where it didn't, so fixed.


I tested just now and indeed it's fixed, great, thanks!
jase
admin, 3844 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 11 Nov 2023
at 03:05

Re: RPoL Design Update

Another update.

  • Fixed GM option for posting as option coming up as "or as2" instead of "or as".  Where's the proof reading?  (c;
  • Replaced a bunch of internal PHP functions that will be deprecated in future updates.  If I got it right you won't notice a thing.
  • Standardised a few screens that had special styling only used on that page, contrary to the rest of the site.
  • Removed a bunch of superfluous CSS classes.
  • Removed a bunch of JavaScript includes that were from testing about 3 years ago.  Oops.


But what I've really been fiddling with is the themes, and I'd like to reiterate my displeasure and discomfort when working on this.  I'm good at binary not beauteousness (sorry, I was desperate for a "b"-word) and find it takes an extraordinary length of time to come up with something sub-par.

I simplified a few options so the custom page is a little shorter and as a result slightly easier to manage.  Reworked the dark red theme so it doesn't have any bright red hovers plus a bit more red in various spots.  Also (re)created the black theme.  A little more greyscale than the old black theme but still has some of the blue link colouring and the like that harks back to the old site's theme.

Also, and hopefully helpfully, added a test screen to view your custom theme.  Still have to save your theme to see it but found it really helped when creating/editing black and dark red.  Link appears in the theme customisation screen once you save.

See how the themes go for you and let me know any feedback.  Feel free to recreate the other 10 or so themes for me.

Oh, if you do have a custom theme then please update it, I changed a few things so you'll probably find a few random colours are wrong until you do.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 538 posts
Sat 11 Nov 2023
at 03:18
  • msg #545

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ooh, nice test screen.

Since you chided us for not proofreading, "a hyperlinlk" on the test screen failed the proofreading test. =D
jase
admin, 3845 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 11 Nov 2023
at 04:23

Re: RPoL Design Update

You passed my test!

(Does anyone ever believe that?)
jase
admin, 3847 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 18 Nov 2023
at 09:40

Re: RPoL Design Update

  • Ran a stack of pages through https://validator.w3.org/
  • Replaced a plethora of old HTML with newer stuff (e.g. <font> is obsolete so used <span> instead)
  • Added "alt" (alternate) text to a stack of images to appease w3 plus (more importantly) it's a nice thing to do for those to rely on screen readers.
  • Changed the hover-over tips from using "alt" as the tip source as it's actually invalid (and upon reflection not nice for screen readers).  For those who care about such things, used "data-*" attribute instead.
  • Removed a whole stack of "self closing" HTML tags, again are obsolete.
  • Fixed a stack of other closing and misc errors that the validator found for me.
  • Renamed "white" and "black" to "light" and "dark" as they're not monochrome themes.  A little pedantic but someone will mention it (besides me!).
  • Changed all the charset (character set) encoding to UTF-8.
That last one is of moderate importance.  Whilst it doesn't change how the website works it might change how browsers choose to display non-standard characters, such as "€" (€) and "ö" (ö).  I don't expect any issues but do recall some oddities with character sheets or similar from ages ago, so thought it worth a mention/warning.

Another bonus to switching to utf is that it'll stop messing with Asian character sets, e.g. i.e. when you saved a post with や in it, it will actually save as &#12420;.  Not friendly for those trying to edit such messages as it's just a pure mess of &#; and numbers.  Now it'll just save the actual character.

I mucked with a bunch of other stuff but can't remember what it is, so my usual "good luck" signoff!
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 542 posts
Sat 18 Nov 2023
at 19:16
  • msg #548

Re: RPoL Design Update

The character changes are fantastic, especially for the fixes for editing with Asian characters, and a heads up to everyone who now sees their special characters as the busted diamonds - just paste the words in again fresh with an edit, and it'll fix that! (Or it did for me)

Thanks, jase!
This message was last edited by the user at 19:16, Sat 18 Nov 2023.
Skald
moderator, 1002 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 04:53

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yup, getting reports of special characters not displaying eg accented e é (I typed that using ISO Entity so it'd display properly) showing the diamond/question mark broken indicator.

Since such characters are relatively common in say French, is there any other option for a fix aside from SunRuanEr's Edit/Retype workaround ?   Maybe reboot PC, restart browser if it just needs to clear/reload, OR some browser setting that can be tweaked ?  (forgive my ignorance, I don't know how UTF or other methods of encoding are actually implemented, so I don't know what's needed to resolve)  :>
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 543 posts
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 05:29
  • msg #550

Re: RPoL Design Update

I checked with a reboot and a restart of the browser, Skald, and it didn't seem to fix the issue with the diamonds. If there's a browser setting that can get rid of them, I don't know where to find it.

Are you seeing freshly-typed accents not showing, or just ones from before jase's updates?

Every accent I can find that hasn't been edited /today/ is displaying as a busted diamond, now, although before it was hit-or-miss as to whether or not they would work or not - I assume depending on what kind of format they were entered in, not sure because that's above my pay grade. They're also all showing busted diamonds in their edit screens regardless of whether they worked or not previously, which is a new behaviour. I used to have no idea whether or not an accent was going to show properly until entering it and then reading the post.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:29, Sun 19 Nov 2023.
Skald
moderator, 1003 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 06:31
  • msg #551

Re: RPoL Design Update

Freshly-typed accents, but not ones keyed as ISO entities - eg ALT+130 is a problem, but &eacute; and &#233; are not.

From what I can find, and bearing in mind I don't speak HTML that well (just the basics), I'd be adding <meta charset="UTF-8"> to specify the character encoding ... but even if that's anywhere near ballpark, RuBB might work very differently ! :>
jase
admin, 3848 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 07:36

Re: RPoL Design Update

OK so we've got an annoyance with switching to UTF-8... which we basically have to do at some stage.

Currently everything is saved as iso-8859-1, basically think Latin.  Works fine and renders everything nicely but some stuff has to be converted to HTML codes to work.  Just the way the old web worked, not a RPoL specific thing.

Now we want to use UTF-8.  UTF-8 is awesome because it properly supports a huge character set, no issue.  Responsive is now displaying the webpage in UTF-8.

So.  File in iso being rendered by a website that's using utf = triangles.

I've written a few hackery adjustments to convert, which is relatively straightforward.  Basically "if this string is iso encoded then covert it to utf" before displaying.  Any new posts are fine 'cos it's utf all the way through.. old ones need some converting.  Should work.

I've done some detect/converting for thread listing and displaying, however the rest I unfortunately don't have time for right now.

Now my concern is the opposite of what's responsive is seeing.

In responsive:

 * File in iso
 * Converted to utf (due to by recent hackery)
 * Rendered in utf

My concern is the old site for new messages that are posted from responsive, 'cos that'll save the entry in utf:

 * File in utf
 * Rendered in iso ... will it be bad?

So anyone using responsive and non-English characters... let me know if people using the old website have problems viewing your messages.

Solution would be one of three things:

 * Try to hack in the same for the old site, though the other way around.  I don't relish this idea.
 * Undo the UTF-8 update for responsive, only push it out once we go live.
 * Rush the responsive release (is getting fairly close to release anyway, isn't it?)

Apologies for the rush, supposed be somewhere else!
Skald
moderator, 1004 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 09:19
  • msg #553

Re: RPoL Design Update

If Responsive is working fine, then my vote is not to worry about the old site, and not to rush the responsive release.  :>

Reasoning:

a) we have a workaround/fix = switch to Responsive, and
b) the sooner we can consolidate to just one site, the better (for all that I still like the old site personally) and any effort spent on the old site is effort that could be spent working on the Responsive release.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 544 posts
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 16:55
  • msg #554

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yay, no more busted diamonds on old messages on responsive!

quote:
So anyone using responsive and non-English characters... let me know if people using the old website have problems viewing your messages.


So....yeah. NEW messages posted on the responsive site using non-English characters are complete gibberish on the old site. Old messages render fine on the old site. It's almost like every character is appearing as individually a different, wrong character. (For example, á on responsive is rendering as á on the old site.) Strings of Chinese characters are particularly amusing, one I tested coming up as “顯然,他們以為是我,直到我出現並沒有死。” on the old site.

But I agree with Skald. The more people that go ahead and get on responsive, the better. =D

Truthfully, too, I wonder how much of an actual /problem/ it is? (I have no idea how many people are still on the old site. Does anyone?) It's disconcerting when single characters render wrong - like the á example, but it doesn't make the word unreadable, and at least in the games I'm familiar with, when we see entire strings of other characters they usually have an English translation provided afterwards, which IS readable even if the non-English string isn't.

Of course, I have no idea how many actual games ARE being run in other languages, so it might be a much bigger problem...but still one that can be solved by switching to responsive!
This message was last edited by the user at 11:57, Mon 20 Nov 2023.
bigbadron
moderator, 16202 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 19 Nov 2023
at 17:24

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 554):

Ahem!  I still use the original site.  :)  Will probably be the last one to move (don't worry jase, I'll remember to switch off the lights when I leave).  But I'm only involved in one game at the moment, and certainly none in foreign languages.

Then again, in the past I have been known to post Swedish words and phrases, just for fun, in my own games (Swedish uses a 29 letter alphabet, compared to the English 26, so a few strange ones in there).  :p
Shann
member, 9 posts
Mon 20 Nov 2023
at 00:36
  • msg #556

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
See how the themes go for you and let me know any feedback.  Feel free to recreate the other 10 or so themes for me.

I played around with this today. Desaturated the light theme down to grayscale with the exception of hyperlinks, private lines in messages, and the traditional colors for public/private message notifications. Its not an exact replica of the 'White' theme from the old site, but has a very similar feel.

I'm happy to plug away when I have time and save you the headache.
BlackWater
member, 29 posts
You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!
Yep! I got issues!
Mon 20 Nov 2023
at 04:35
  • msg #557

Re: RPoL Design Update

I apologize.  It's late, and I'm not really sure I read all the posts (again, late) - so if this has been discussed, again, I apologize...

While I haven't seen any issues with special characters in the 'new' rpol, I'm noticing it with one or two people's posts using apostrophize and quotation marks.

I've tried to get it to replicate on desktop (pc), laptop (pc), ipad, and iphone, but everything I'm posting is showing correct.  I've tried different types of punctuation (such as on ipad swiping to get punctuation on the keyboard, using separate keyboards, pressing and holding for special characters)

I'm seeing it on EVERY post made by one or two people (including posts made today), including posts they've made within the last couple of hours.  In looking historically, I've seeing it on some of my own, older posts (I post across multiple devices).

I'm seeing it in Edger, Opera, and Chrome (again, across multiple devices). I've seen it in multiple games.

I HAVE cut and pasted the text, both from the reader and from an edit, and from the reader when I C&P into a new post, it's showing a square with a question mark in it.

When I C&P from a thread edit screen, I'm getting the black diamond with a question mark.

I guess it's probably a none-issue, and might be impossible to trouble-shoot/investigate with such a low impact and without being able to replicate it, but figured I would toss it in just in case it's something that helps.
Skald
moderator, 1005 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 20 Nov 2023
at 04:46

Re: RPoL Design Update

It's possible those quote characters (whether single or double) are actually special characters, ie the prettified curly quotes, rather than the basic quotes that come on a keyboard ... and bearing in mind some software will convert standard quotes to curly quotes automatically.

Ah, that's 'straight quotes' to 'smart quotes' checkbox per Microsoft Word (Options | Proofing | AutoCorrect Options button | Autoformat AND Autoformat as you type tabs).
BlackWater
member, 30 posts
You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!
Yep! I got issues!
Mon 20 Nov 2023
at 05:09
  • msg #559

Re: RPoL Design Update

That could possibly explain some of my old posts showing that - but none of my new ones.  I write some posts in Word or Onenote and post them over.

NOTE/Edit: Tried with both on and off.  Didn't make a difference.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:19, Mon 20 Nov 2023.
Skald
moderator, 1006 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 20 Nov 2023
at 06:28

Re: RPoL Design Update

I had a look at one of your games (which we won't mention here, per forum rules  :>) and it looks like you're posting in Responsive and the GM is posting in the old site ... which would probably explain at least some of it - per jase's explanation above, the old site uses the old standard Latin, while Responsive uses the new standard UTF-8 ... and I'm guessing 'never the twain shall meet'. 

I can definitely see different results viewing the same page on old and new sites.  In Responsive the broken diamond only shows in the title, but any assumedly problem quotes are omitted entirely in the post text; on the old site there's an interesting gobbledigook text string (along the lines Sunruaner mentioned above) in place of the quote in the title, but the rest render fine and I can see the difference between the normal and curly quotes in the post text (I'm on PC and in Firefox, Win 10, both latest updates, BTW).
BlackWater
member, 31 posts
You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!
Yep! I got issues!
Mon 20 Nov 2023
at 23:03
  • msg #561

Re: RPoL Design Update

That MAY be it (and I think you're right), but I wasn't able to get it replicate, not with ' and " at least, at least on a PC.  I didn't try with all browsers and devices.

I did check the old site and am seeing some of my test posts from last night, seem to not have taken the translation backwards to the old site well.  And it was from posts I tested with the ipad.

So maybe it's a matter of formatting issues between the two that are iPad specific.
nauthiz
subscriber, 783 posts
Tue 21 Nov 2023
at 00:31
  • msg #562

Re: RPoL Design Update

I think until there's a forced migration, or Jase puts some sort of patch in place for the non-responsive site, there's just going to be even more oddities depending on which version of the site people are using than already were in place.

I'm a player with another person in the game who I know is a non-native English speaker.  I haven't queried exactly where they're from and which version of the site they're using but their first character post since the change was rolled out is missing every quote and apostrophe.  My mobile browser just leaves a blank space in their place which makes for an... interesting reading experience.

Best just to be aware I suppose so if confusion happens amongst users who might not be aware of the issue they can be clued in and reassured that what they're experiencing is expected and there's no issues with regards to what they did or the devices they may be using to interact with the site.
The Stray
member, 134 posts
When the Cat's a Stray
the Mice will Pray
Tue 21 Nov 2023
at 00:46
  • msg #563

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm suddenly not getting red Private Message alerts on the sidebar of a game I'm running. This is new behavior, only seems to have started within the last couple of days -- I still get the blue alert when I have new PMs when looking at the home page.

(I use the Responsive site, if that narrows things down. I don't know if it's doing this on the old version of the site)
jase
admin, 3849 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 21 Nov 2023
at 13:41

Re: RPoL Design Update

Popped in another quick update.  Fixed more "responsive showing old posts with accents" issue, this time the character sheets/descriptions and.. err, I've forgotten already.

The only issue we should be having now is responsive posts (with accents) being viewed on the old site.  Everything else hopefully works and if not then let me know where/what.  Actually I'm sure there'll be spots, we're printing user input all over the site and I'm sure there'll be some obvious or obscure spot I've missed, just let me know.
Additionally:
  • Updated the help/FAQ pages (not the contents) to fit the larger theme.  Colours will be bad if you use a custom theme (until you update it).
  • Validated some more pages 'cos apparently that's my life now.  (c;
  • Decreased header height (removed the padding at the bottom).  Gives you a whole 2% more for the main content and I think looks better.


In reply to Shann (msg # 556):

Thanks.  Greatly appreciated but the unfortunate reality is I need to recreate dark blue/green/purple/brown, light red/blue/green, pastel, reduced and contrast.

I'll forge ahead with some of the theme updates, unless someone comes up with issues with the responsive site as a whole then I think we're close to release it to the unsuspecting masses.

Btw I think someone asked about the ratio of responsive vs normal/old site.. I think only about 5% use responsive.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 545 posts
Tue 21 Nov 2023
at 14:07
  • msg #565

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 564):

Whoo for more content space! Two thumbs' up.

quote:
I think only about 5% use responsive.

That was me that asked - I wasn't sure if there was even a way to track the usage differences. This is...shocking to me. The games I play in have been closer to 50% - 90% responsive users based off comments over the years, so I was under the impression that more people had migrated.

They're missing out! (...and I say that as someone who was vehemently against the responsive setup when I first saw it all those years ago. <.< )
jase
admin, 3850 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 21 Nov 2023
at 14:55

Re: RPoL Design Update

Well very hackery math - The log file for yesterday was 101 and 5.5MB for old and new, respectively.  Maybe a little more skewed toward responsive in other days but the best percentage I can see is about 6.5%.

Anyway, very quickly hacked up dark blue, dark green, dark purple and light blue before running out of steam.  I went to do dark brown and noped out of that one real quick.  They're all pretty lazy edits, just rotating around the RGB colours.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 546 posts
Tue 21 Nov 2023
at 21:11
  • msg #567

Re: RPoL Design Update

The Stray:
I'm suddenly not getting red Private Message alerts on the sidebar of a game I'm running. This is new behavior, only seems to have started within the last couple of days -- I still get the blue alert when I have new PMs when looking at the home page.


Got the exact same thing today. Blue on the main home page, but no red on the sidebar (and I definitely had refreshed the game page).
jase
admin, 3851 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 22 Nov 2023
at 00:21

Re: RPoL Design Update

Try now, thanks.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 547 posts
Wed 22 Nov 2023
at 00:46
  • msg #569

Re: RPoL Design Update

Working now. Thanks jase!
patchwolf
member, 55 posts
Wed 22 Nov 2023
at 02:01
  • msg #570

Re: RPoL Design Update

Can I make a small suggestion on the new custom themes functionality?

Currently the preview only works after you've saved the theme.  Adding the ability to preview before you've saved the theme would be invaluable to people who are trying to figure out what looks good before they hit the "save" button.
jase
admin, 3852 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 22 Nov 2023
at 08:40

Re: RPoL Design Update

Done, added it to the preferences screen as it had also occurred to me that you also couldn't view the theme you'd just selected from the list.

Speaking of, added light red and light green.
patchwolf
member, 56 posts
Wed 22 Nov 2023
at 23:18
  • msg #572

Re: RPoL Design Update

Maybe I'm blind, but I'm not seeing the option to preview the custom theme before saving it.  Currently, you still have to hit the "Create" button to create the theme, then click the link (https://r.rpol.net/usermodules...action=theme-example) to see a screen that utilises the theme.

What I'd like to see is the ability to preview a theme before applying it to the site.
For example, I've very curious about the new default themes you've created.  I'd love to see what they look like, but to do so, I'd have to
  1. load the preset theme
  2. hit create
    • this immediately applies the theme to all of rpol (no preview, just apply)
    • this obliterates my current custom theme (which is good, but maybe one of the existing ones is better, or could inspire my choices)

  3. click the sample screen link, which shows how all of the style elements look in one place.


I can appreciate the fact that loading a lot of custom css into a temporary file is challenging; much easier to get the user to save the custom css (which is then associated with their account), and then apply and then show the sample screen.  Perhaps an acceptable mid-way solution is the ability to save your custom css with a named scheme, so it could be retrieved and reloaded, even after trying another theme.  What stop me right now is that if I want to try the "dark green" theme, but like my existing dark yellow theme better, I then have to go back and recreate my custom theme from scratch.
jase
admin, 3853 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 23 Nov 2023
at 11:14

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ah, gotcha.  I've updated the example page so you can rotate through the inbuilt themes.  Previewing what you're currently editing without creating it will be trickier.  Will look into whether it's a nightmare to do or not.

In the meantime you can view the themes on the beta site without messing it up here.
jase
admin, 3854 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 23 Nov 2023
at 14:52

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok you should now be able to preview without ruining your current custom theme.  Saves your edit to a file that's only removed when you finally hit "Create!", so you can wonder away for hours or even days and come back to it later.  Is also available as a theme to load if you do leave the edit screen and come back later.
patchwolf
member, 57 posts
Thu 23 Nov 2023
at 14:55
  • msg #575

Re: RPoL Design Update

That does the trick!

I wouldn't be good professional Tester if I didn't mention that the dark brown theme (https://r.rpol.net/usermodules...e-preview=dark+brown) seems to be missing a lot of its style sheet.  I suspect it's inclusion in the list was an error?
liblarva
member, 800 posts
Thu 23 Nov 2023
at 22:45
  • msg #576

Re: RPoL Design Update

Any chance there can be a WYSIWYG interface for posting?

If it’s already there I’m not seeing it.
jase
admin, 3855 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 24 Nov 2023
at 01:28

Re: RPoL Design Update

I hadn't actually copied the dark brown theme over so it was loading the old site's version which would have led to quite the abomination, should be better now.  Thanks for testing.

WYSIWYG is on the list but not on the immediate to-do.  I'm currently focussing on what is preventing the responsive design from being released and deliberately avoiding new features.
Runsteren
member, 16 posts
Fri 24 Nov 2023
at 11:15
  • msg #578

Re: RPoL Design Update

I have the black (and red text) design chosen. On the front page it works well, but when I enter a game (or this thread for that matter) everything becomes white (and blue text).
This just started today. Is there something I need to change?

Thanks :)

EDIT: I can now add, that if I post something, it turns black and red again afterwards. Something is amiss.

More EDIT: As Jase says, it is fixed now.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:10, Fri 24 Nov 2023.
patchwolf
member, 58 posts
Software Tester
Fri 24 Nov 2023
at 11:26
  • msg #579

Re: RPoL Design Update

That sounds like a cache issue.  I'd honestly try emptying your cache and trying again.
jase
admin, 3856 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 24 Nov 2023
at 13:13
  • msg #580

Re: RPoL Design Update

That was me and the dark something themes.  Fixed it about an hour ago, I think.
jase
admin, 3857 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 25 Nov 2023
at 06:49

Re: RPoL Design Update

For better or totally for worse, the last three themes are in.

So what's stopping us for releasing the new version on the unsuspecting masses?
patchwolf
member, 59 posts
Software Tester
Sat 25 Nov 2023
at 07:04
  • msg #582

Re: RPoL Design Update

The fact that they're unsuspecting?  Given by your own numbers less than 5% of users are using the responsive site, I'd strongly recommend a (multiple) communications strategy, and probably a month's advance warning before changing over.  Send an rMail to every user who's logged in in the past year (no need to bother people who haven't, they can expect some changes when they comes back).  Those who want to change early will do so.  For the rest, you may need to ease them into the water.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 548 posts
Sat 25 Nov 2023
at 07:18
  • msg #583

Re: RPoL Design Update

I can't imagine that they're really unsuspecting.

Living in denial, maybe, but not unsuspecting. The poll about changing the site to be responsive is over four years old, as is the announcement on the main page about the responsive site coming soon. (Or perhaps originally it was about going to try it out, but I know it was up before I went to try it out, and that was over four years ago now based on my posts in this thread regarding it, so...close enough.)

I'd say that fair warning has been given. Although I suppose it might be sporting to change the main page notification to give, say, a heads up that come 2024, the site will be responsive? I dunno. A month's notice on top of four years' notice seems MORE than adequate. rMailing everyone feels a bit excessive.

Question, though!

For those of us that have been on responsive, will we need to change all of our bookmarks, etc, back to the original site?
jase
admin, 3858 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 25 Nov 2023
at 07:21
  • msg #584

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not really that unsuspecting, it's permanently on the main menu.  Recently update the message as well.  Denial is probably right.

But I was more concerned with broken or it-was-better-before functionality.

Bookmarks will work for quite some time.
patchwolf
member, 60 posts
Software Tester
Sat 25 Nov 2023
at 07:32
  • msg #585

Re: RPoL Design Update

That's my point.  I't's been on the main menu for so long that people have stopped paying attention to it.  It's become noise rather than signal.  A change needs to be made to show that the warning is no longer nebulous -- it's at a specific point in the future.

I do this for a living -- manage software testing and releases.  I also do it for a largely digitally-unaware audience -- the lowest denominator.  I think with a month, there will still be people who this catches by surprise.  I don't have the data to back that up, but that's my gut suspicion.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 549 posts
Sat 25 Nov 2023
at 07:36
  • msg #586

Re: RPoL Design Update

If the question is just 'is it ready?', I feel like the answer is 'yes'.

I know from a few conversations that have been had in some of my games regarding the switchover that the lack of easy-to-use themes was the thing keeping the holdouts from making the jump. Obviously, the people I play with are above average in terms of participation since we're closer to 50-50 responsive vs. original use, but the people who said 'I tried responsive but didn't like it' all gave the lack of custom themes (or it being too hard to make their own custom theme from scratch) as the reason why they didn't like it.

Themes are in. I feel like that was the last I-dotting and T-crossing that needed to happen. I can't personally think of anything else that's missing.

(I will admit that I may, however, be a bit impatient to have all of my players utilizing the responsive cast list that gets me out of having to field nosy questions about other player's activity status...so my opinion is not entirely unbiased.)
Zag24
supporter, 780 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 04:11
  • msg #587

Re: RPoL Design Update

I vastly prefer the new site, both on my big screen as well as for the cases where I use it on my phone.  IMO, just pull the trigger and people will whine for a week and then be happy about it.
gowkaiser96
supporter, 13 posts
Penetrate Section Z
Destroy L Brain
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 09:09
  • msg #588

Re: RPoL Design Update

Zag24:
I vastly prefer the new site, both on my big screen as well as for the cases where I use it on my phone.  IMO, just pull the trigger and people will whine for a week and then be happy about it.

I pulled out a measuring tape to be sure, and 9 inches across of post text area in the "new" look vs (nearly) 16 inches across with the current old design?

Yeah, that is losing a LOT of use area for turning the tiny old top of screen menu into a massive side menu, and leaving a lot of dead air space on the other side too.

RPOL will still have the best underlying utility for actually running a game compared to a normal forum (Oh my god the amount of games that I have seen die when trying to move to a forum with custom avatars when I was more active. Why don't they listen?). But I thank god I got my desktop back with my proper monitor from some work done before the change is mandatory, instead of having less space on my screen used to display content instead of filler on my laptop with a shrunken use area.

Working better on our phones is great if you want to catch up on the go, but I can't imagine telling people "And also better on my big screen!"

EDIT: Looking at this thread in the new look feels positively tiny on a basic 24 (23?) inch monitor. Though it is nice that the actual text entry mode is wider by default, while the old style entry field defaults to small cube without stretching. Some real "Pick which function is the size you want, one or the other" cursed wish energy there. "The font option quick buttons are sensibly spaced, finally!... oh right the resulting post is shrunk in the wash now."

Sure you can scroll down more, but that just increases the feeling of awkward monitor space when you know "This used to be be one line of text, not two."
This message was last edited by the user at 09:38, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
patchwolf
member, 61 posts
Software Tester
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 09:42
  • msg #589

Re: RPoL Design Update

quote:
I pulled out a measuring tape to be sure, and 9 inches across of post text area in the "new" look vs (nearly) 16 inches across with the current old design?


Just a note, this can be changed with a custom theme.  I detest white space in site design, so I made sure my [mono]maximum page width: [/mono] setting was set to 2000 (default is 1350).  The text area when you go to reply matches the page width, so I'm currently writing on a box 2000 wide...
gowkaiser96
supporter, 14 posts
Penetrate Section Z
Destroy L Brain
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 10:34
  • msg #590

Re: RPoL Design Update

patchwolf:
Just a note, this can be changed with a custom theme.  I detest white space in site design, so I made sure my [mono]maximum page width: [/mono] setting was set to 2000 (default is 1350).  The text area when you go to reply matches the page width, so I'm currently writing on a box 2000 wide...

While better than no option at all, looking up how to root around my firefox browser settings to change only that (and apply it to only RPOL), at least involves someone admitting that it is a problem.

Also the WRITING area is already just mostly fine in the new mode, as that only loses a little to worthless blank space. It is the READING being squashed like a mobile app feed that looks crazy on a monitor. "Useless blank space, reasonable size poster name area, crushed actual post content, chunky side menu instead of top/bottom menus out of the way, MORE blank space."  Writing looks a lot bigger without user names on the side, and having a better default than the old version spacing.

Though a big part of that outlook is that my eyesight is reminding me of my age more these days. Which means wasting monitor space that could be (and does, on old build) used to have more text on screen at once instead of literally nothing for aesthetic reasons, bothers me more now with my phone always in arm's reach. Than when smartphones were new and lamenting my cave man fingers vs touchscreen keyboards.
This message was last edited by the user at 10:51, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
Hunter
member, 2017 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 11:07
  • msg #591

Re: RPoL Design Update

I really hate to say it...but the new design makes RPOL look like every other forum site out there.  The current layout is unique, or nearly so; and the new look....meh.
Skald
moderator, 1007 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 11:31
  • msg #592

Re: RPoL Design Update

To be fair, these are all design/development considerations, and while I appreciate that some members haven't been on the site that long and may have missed all our earlier discussions covering the same points, we have had those discussions and we're a bit past that at this stage of the process.

Which is not to say that discussion on layout is done and dusted - certainly we can continue to talk about the pros and cons and these may well lead to future changes.  I'm sure I'll have some suggestions myself.  ;>

But what jase is looking for now is to ascertain whether there is any missing or broken functionality that's holding us back from final release (eg giving users a bit of notice is a valid point that has been raised).  The sooner we retire the old site and everyone is on the new Responsive site, the sooner jase will be able to look at further development (ie additional functionality and suggested changes).
gowkaiser96
supporter, 15 posts
Penetrate Section Z
Destroy L Brain
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 11:39
  • msg #593

Re: RPoL Design Update

Skald:
But what jase is looking for now is to ascertain whether there is any missing or broken functionality that's holding us back from final release (eg giving users a bit of notice is a valid point that has been raised).  The sooner we retire the old site and everyone is on the new Responsive site, the sooner jase will be able to look at further development (ie additional functionality and suggested changes).

I am still very, very thankful that at a glance all of the important under the hood stuff is going to be the same. While I feel more and more like an old man yelling at (Storage) clouds, a slight phone zone visuals change with all the actual function is still basically a miracle these days when it comes to the site UI change bulldozer.

Compare, a site I will not name, right before thanksgiving making a a very small change visually... and removing search by month in favor of only search by year. "I know, I will type the name of the month in the search field... that ignores dates made and only if someone literally wrote the word February in the description..."

Function is important, and approaching decades plural later I still have not found any other site that comes close to RPOL for the actual function of juggling a million characters per user/co-gm.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:44, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
Hunter
member, 2018 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 11:43
  • msg #594

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 592):

I'm quite aware that it's way too late in the process for any changes, particularly cosmetic changes; to be made.    I'm going to be one of those who won't change until they have to, because I feel that we're loosing much of what made RPOL unique in the first place.

Yes, I know Jase has been doing a mind-boggling amount of work; both in creating and in maintaining the site over the decades.   And I'm grateful for the stability that the site has shown, in spite of any ups and downs that real life has tossed our way.
deadtotheworld22
member, 215 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 13:03
  • msg #595

Re: RPoL Design Update

At the risk of poking my nose in, I do think it'll be useful to have a communications campaign or at least a set space with very clear responses to player questions (i.e. when the changeover will happen, what differences one might experience when moving across, and some explanation why the move is happening).

Not everyone will be following the development thread or indeed be as tech minded in terms of what the move is and why (and I include myself in that, because I couldn't tell you what makes the new site responsive or not) and given the range of experiences on the site, a little support for those of us who aren't anywhere near the cutting edge would probably be appreciated.

As other people have hinted, you'll always have some people who will be nostalgic for the old set up and who have an approach of 'if it ain't broke', but explaining the benefits and the reasons for the move in one place will hopefully keep said grumbling to a minimum.

Personally, I'm still using the old site because it's what I'm used to, I've got a custom visual for my dark theme which is very nice (if people like chocolate brown and gold) and I've never banged my head against any of the limitations which I suspect other people might have done re. functionality or design, but I'm sure I'll be fine with the move as long as I'm told of the specific date in advance (and indeed whether it's going to be a straight switch off of the old system then) and there's something there to provide FAQs etc, rather than it happening without warning and there being no reassurance/information about what to expect.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:06, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
patchwolf
member, 62 posts
Software Tester
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 13:20
  • msg #596

Re: RPoL Design Update

gowkaiser96:
patchwolf:
Just a note, this can be changed with a custom theme.  I detest white space in site design, so I made sure my [mono]maximum page width: [/mono] setting was set to 2000 (default is 1350).  The text area when you go to reply matches the page width, so I'm currently writing on a box 2000 wide...

While better than no option at all, looking up how to root around my firefox browser settings to change only that (and apply it to only RPOL), at least involves someone admitting that it is a problem.



Not what I meant at all.  It's not a setting you need to change in your browser -- it's a preference on the site.
Preferences > RPoL Preferences
Mine has a link allowing me to Edit (or Remove) my custom theme.  Opening that link will allow you to colourise most elements of rpol.  One of those elements is the maximum page width and gives a guide of 1,000 to 2,000 as min/max values.  The default is 1,350.  Changing this value to 2,000 makes it use the entire width of the screen (on my browser, also firefox) -- and because the site is responsive it adapts to the smaller screen of my phone just as well.

It is a lot simpler than messing about with site-specific theme hacks in your browser settings.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:21, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
Skald
moderator, 1008 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 13:24
  • msg #597

Re: RPoL Design Update

We have a cutoff date now -> 23 December <- posted front and centre on the Main Menu on the old site.  :>

Not entirely sure exactly what we'd put in an FAQ - the functionality of RPoL is the same, it's really just the layout that's changed ... and a list of "X used to be on the top menu, now it's on the side menu" is going to get a bit tedious/not particularly useful.

The notice on the Menu on the old site does include a link to the Responsive site, and a suggestion that users familiarise themselves with it in the period leading up to the changeover, so that leaves plenty of time for questions beforehand.

I've done user interface overhauls before in conjunction with operating system updates (in my VBA programming days - albeit complex user forms, not webpages, but with generally many more input fields per screen) and with a larger user base without a single question arising ... I've found as long as the functionality is all there, it's 99% just a case of getting used to the different look and learning to click somewhere else.

And I speak/type as someone who is rusted on to the old site and will be making the jump to the new with all the rest.  As I've said elsewhere, the old site was perfect but once I get used to it I'm sure the new site will be even more perfect.  :>
deadtotheworld22
member, 216 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 13:39
  • msg #598

Re: RPoL Design Update

Skald:
We have a cutoff date now -> 23 December <- posted front and centre on the Main Menu on the old site.  :>

Not entirely sure exactly what we'd put in an FAQ - the functionality of RPoL is the same, it's really just the layout that's changed ... and a list of "X used to be on the top menu, now it's on the side menu" is going to get a bit tedious/not particularly useful.

The notice on the Menu on the old site does include a link to the Responsive site, and a suggestion that users familiarise themselves with it in the period leading up to the changeover, so that leaves plenty of time for questions beforehand.

I've done user interface overhauls before in conjunction with operating system updates (in my VBA programming days - albeit complex user forms, not webpages, but with generally many more input fields per screen) and with a larger user base without a single question arising ... I've found as long as the functionality is all there, it's 99% just a case of getting used to the different look and learning to click somewhere else.

And I speak/type as someone who is rusted on to the old site and will be making the jump to the new with all the rest.  As I've said elsewhere, the old site was perfect but once I get used to it I'm sure the new site will be even more perfect.  :>



I will admit, I had seen the announcement but hadn't twigged the date, so I will hold my hands up in terms of looking like a moron on a public thread :)

I suppose my point re. the FAQ would be that it could just be as you've said - effectively a 'Don't Panic' in big, friendly letters and a confirmation that the functionality is going to be the same and it's just aesthetics.

The other aspect would be explaining the reasoning behind the decision to make the move if, as you note, a lot of people still use the old site and seem happy with it and the changes (at least on the surface) are just aesthetic. I'm sure it's somewhere in the threads here, and I'm not questioning that it makes sense, but a bit of user/moderator commentary might stop idiots like me constantly asking you about it!

This is probably just me projecting how my brain works and my IRL experience of working in a company which went through big IT changes for a very diverse community in terms of ages, technical abilities and frequency of use, but I do think it helps just having a 'in case you missed it' summary because not everyone necessarily has the time/bandwidth to keep up to date with things going on in the background, especially around this time of year, so a single one stop shop might save a bit of time/angst.
Ramidel
member, 1415 posts
Err on the side
of awesome.
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 13:52
  • msg #599

Re: RPoL Design Update

Personally, having looked unhappily at the responsive site...well, aside from the single scrolling menu making me want to ceremonially recycle every mobile phone I can get my hands on (because I can see my entire set of games just fine the way the system is set up now; this is the problem with mobile optimization, it's inconvenient for desktop users), the dark modes are all one kind of dark instead of the dark green background I use (where the wallpaper makes the contrast easier to read, but isn't a true Dark Mode which I don't need).
jase
admin, 3861 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 14:30

Re: RPoL Design Update

I see my notice has gathered some interest, thanks for those who have found themselves over here.  I think I'll put an announcement (and FAQ?) on the announcements forum and also link to this.

To give some background - RPoL was created in 2000 by a has-been programmer who can't draw to save his life.  Average screen size would have 1024×768, having recently surpassed 800x600.  That's either 1024 or 800 pixels across, which will become relevant later.  I ah.. took inspiration from a random forum to make the framework of the site.

I recall soon after going to great lengths to remove all padding/margins from the site as screen space was premium and everything was just too squished.  It helped and RPoL has kept the same basic design since then.  Shifted some stuff around a little but you're otherwise using a website that was hacked up in 2008.

Now we're generally 1920 pixels across or using ultrawide monitors with 2560 or 3440.  I won't go even more extreme but I'm sure you get the idea, we're over double what we started with.

At this point I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread:

jase:
As mentioned we went with what's recommended for readability, saw what it looked like and made it even wider.  I wouldn't know good readability and typography if it leapt out of my monitor and slapped me in the face, so we did a lot of research into what those with an eye for such things recommend, and 99% of it was all the same.  We reached what we thought was a good compromise between the recommendations (which is quite a bit narrower) and what we've currently got.


Basically humans get fatigue when ready really long lines.  It takes longer to refocus to the start of the next line and apparently causes discomfort.  Recommendations vary but the range would be around 50-80 character per line with maybe an odd 85/90 in there.  Idea is generally 60-70 mark.

The recommendations go further than that.  The longer you make each line the more spacing you have to have between each line, resulting in the same amount of text per page anyway.

I'm sure the suspense is unbearable!  The new design uses around 130 characters per line.  If you create a custom theme (which takes about 10 seconds) and set it to the 2000 pixel maximum then you're at about 230 characters per line.

Now I realise the old site is familiar and we're used to it, but sentimentality is unfortunately no reason to carry it over.  We're basically double the recommended and you can make it 3.5 times.

Why have I made it double, you may wonder?  Ignoring the same typography recommendations I'm throwing at you?  Well one of it is because of the predictable backlash and the other is I realise we often use tables and fixed layouts for character sheets and the like so we're a bit special.  But, as I'm painfully aware and no qualms in admitting, I've got no idea about typography, flow, measure and all sorts of other things so I just went with what the professionals said and then started increasing it until it became useful for our purposes.

Happy to bring back some familiarity (that's why the "lines" under the message subjects are still there) to ease the transition but I think we've all got to face the reality that the old site needed fixing.

I'm happy to make aesthetic changes to reduce the shock but to be clear the width was not adjusted for aesthetics.  I found it weird for quite some time but have to begrudgingly admit that it's far easier to read in the new format.  I've got a 3440 wide monitor and I was a prolific window maximiser before I got this, it's just silly and websites are unusable now if I do that... unless they (shock) limit the maximum width!

I realise that this might elicit an emotional response but I'd hope that what makes RPoL special is not the crapping design from 2008.


Anyway, enough about all that!  I'll get onto things that aren't about the layout.  Oh... wait...  (c;

In reply to Ramidel (msg # 599):

I confess the more recent themes were rushed, I'll do some comparison to the old themes.
This message was last edited by the user at 08:21, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
BFink
member, 95 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 15:22
  • msg #601

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok, a little thing from me: I really miss the header of the page to display when I move down the threads in the Responsive site. I used RPol logo to get back to my main page quite often, but now, to do that, I need to scroll all the way up.

Sure, I can always use "Home" button, but since we have now that nice right menu, perhaps a little "Main Screen" link there could be added...?
bigbadron
moderator, 16204 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 15:37

Re: RPoL Design Update

There is a link to the Main Menu at the bottom right corner, in the footer bar.
PomposLantern
member, 43 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:05
  • msg #603

Re: RPoL Design Update

One thing that really needs fixing in the responsive site is the auto resizer for images on mobile. In the original site, if I turn my phone vertically, it auto-fits everything so the screen remains roughly the same and readable. The responsive site does not, meaning if I post a 400 x 400 image, that image in mobile vertical view breaks the formatting pretty badly.

Update: This seems specifically an issue in pages outside the main forum. Regular, main threads are working a-ok. It's stuff like cast lists, info pages, etc. That seem to lack the auto-rescale feature for mobile vertical view. If that helps track down the problem at all!
This message was last edited by the user at 16:16, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 550 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:15
  • msg #604

Re: RPoL Design Update

BFink:
Ok, a little thing from me: I really miss the header of the page to display when I move down the threads in the Responsive site. I used RPol logo to get back to my main page quite often, but now, to do that, I need to scroll all the way up.

Sure, I can always use "Home" button, but since we have now that nice right menu, perhaps a little "Main Screen" link there could be added...?

In addition to the Main link in the footer that BBR mentioned, there are also little 'up' and 'down' arrows that stay fixed to the bottom (and upper) righthand corner of your screen. Those will take you all the way up (where you can click on the RPoL logo) or all the way down (to the 'Main' link) with just one touch/tap/click.

PomposLantern:
One thing that really needs fixing in the responsive site is the auto resizer for images on mobile. In the original site, if I turn my phone vertically, it auto-fits everything so the screen remains roughly the same and readable. The responsive site does not, meaning if I post a 400 x 400 image, that image in mobile vertical view breaks the formatting pretty badly.

Update: This seems specifically an issue in pages outside the main forum. Regular, main threads are working a-ok. It's stuff like cast lists, info pages, etc. That seem to lack the auto-rescale feature for mobile vertical view. If that helps track down the problem at all!


Can you be more specific on the specifics? Cast lists and character info pages are rotating and resizing as they should for me, using Chrome. Images only go so small (otherwise, they'd be unviewable) so they sometimes push the text down, but everything seems to be shifting properly as far as I can see.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:21, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
gowkaiser96
supporter, 16 posts
Penetrate Section Z
Destroy L Brain
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:22
  • msg #605

Re: RPoL Design Update

patchwolf:
Not what I meant at all.  It's not a setting you need to change in your browser -- it's a preference on the site.
Preferences > RPoL Preferences
Mine has a link allowing me to Edit (or Remove) my custom theme.  Opening that link will allow you to colourise most elements of rpol.  One of those elements is the maximum page width and gives a guide of 1,000 to 2,000 as min/max values.  The default is 1,350.  Changing this value to 2,000 makes it use the entire width of the screen (on my browser, also firefox) -- and because the site is responsive it adapts to the smaller screen of my phone just as well.

It is a lot simpler than messing about with site-specific theme hacks in your browser settings.


Yeah I was not seeing a setting for that? My RPOL preferences that interact with visuals just has color scheme, portraits on/off, Rmail on/off.

...Oh my god. The "or create one" button next to preview button for preset color schemes, leads to a complete settings menu?

So YEAH. I was assuming you meant browser themes, because the menu basically TRICKS YOU into thinking that button is to create another color scheme.

This is some definite "New user experience vs 'Already knew it was there' " stuff here. Getting flashbacks to gamedev feedback where even a buggy tutorial will be defended by someone saying the endgame is too easy.

Brace yourself for at least... fifteen more users once this rolls out saying "But the preferences menu only shows color preview, portait, and Rmail options" when the update rolls out if that remains as is. (Real glad there is a reset custom settings button too in case you fat finger a setting but forget where you went wrong, now that I know that button does more than context implies).
This message was last edited by the user at 16:31, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
PomposLantern
member, 44 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:31
  • msg #606

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 604):

I'm using a samsung galaxy S22 and the default samsung web browser (please don't judge me). I just downloaded the chrome app for samsung and am finding the same problem. I use 500 x 500 or 400 x 400 for cast portraits, but 400 x 600 for regular game threads. If the image size alone was the problem, the 600 wide images should be having issues like the 500 or 400 pixel ones, theoretically. But it's only images in outside pages like the cast list descriptions. Also, specifically the vertical view in mobile.

I am unsure if there is a code in the main forums that auto resize that wasn't added to cast pages or game info pages, or some other issue. I hope that helps! Otherwise everything looks good, I just noticed that and thought it was worth bringing attention to. Let me know if you need more info and I'll try to get that for you.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:32, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
Rich Kid
member, 28 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:35
  • msg #607

Re: RPoL Design Update

OK, I haven't visited these Forums in a long time and saw the announcement about this, but I don't have a clue as to how any of this works. I'm not a programmer, if that's even the right wording. But, I have to ask: Are the changes going to be similar to Discord?
borderline_dnd
member, 429 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:45
  • msg #608

Re: RPoL Design Update

Is there a way to print the page with the white section on the right?

I am one of the strange folks that do print the pages on rpol most of the time. This would be especially helpful when printing the character details page.

Thanks
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 553 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:47
  • msg #609

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to PomposLantern (msg # 606):

I'm afraid I'm either not seeing the same issue, or just not understanding it.

What I do see is that larger images in character descriptions do SOMETIMES break the text (by pushing it below them) on the vertical view on my phone. MOST images don't seem to do this (A quick run through of characters in my games only showed a few description images doing this, out of 20+). They don't make it unreadable, or otherwise change the rest of the text formatting in what I can see, they just move the next line of text down below the image because there's not room for words to be legibly written next to it. Again, only in vertical view.

In character sheets, the images get pushed BEHIND the text - which I have to admit, I think is really freakin' cool. I wouldn't like it so much in a character description, because it's harder to read, but in a character sheet where there's less TO read, it looks really neat. This happens in both vertical and horizontal on my phone.

If what you're experiencing is different than that, I'm afraid I have no idea what it is or how to replicate or fix it - I'm sorry! :(
This message was last edited by the user at 16:59, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
Siran
member, 182 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 16:58
  • msg #610

Re: RPoL Design Update

A really simple solution to this .. Which is trivial to do and a great quality of life improvement would be to allow resizing of images

I like the old rpol better (I have tried the new and don't like it) but that's just because I am used to it. It's a free service and has brought me a lot of enjoyment so if it's now mandatory that's fair enough. I'll get used to the new layout soon enough
PomposLantern
member, 45 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 17:01
  • msg #611

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 609):

No worries at all! I am not a coder, but I do enough web design to know mobile optimization is a pain in the a**. I'm adding a screenshot of an old game so you can see what I mean. Can't show in the forum but if you copy-paste it in URL you should be able to access it.

https://i.imgur.com/HIsZfUt.jpg

It seems my screen on mobile is fitting to the width of the image instead of being confined to the boundry box.
This message was last edited by the user at 17:05, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 554 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 17:08
  • msg #612

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to PomposLantern (msg # 611):

Aha!

No, that IS weird.

When I run across descriptions with overlarge images, the text fits fully to the mobile screen, and I have to scroll over if I want to see the farthest right portion of the image (which isn't a big deal and doesn't bother me at all - I'd rather an image I can see the detail in but have to scroll over a miniscule image that fits without scrolling).

Something is definitely up with yours.

For what it's worth, that looks like the default responsive theme (maybe?) Mine is custom, and I have set my maximum page width (a setting you can get to with the Custom Theme link on your main Preferences page) to 1600 pixels, which is higher than the default.
This message was last edited by the user at 17:12, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
nauthiz
subscriber, 785 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 17:12
  • msg #613

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to PomposLantern (msg # 611):

I experience the same behavior on my Samsung phone.


Though I don't know if it's something introduced with a more recent update or if it has always been that way and I just never noticed.
BFink
member, 96 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 17:28
  • msg #614

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 602):

Thanks, bigbadron, but in this case I need to get all the way to the footer. I have no way of getting back to the Main Screen when I'm in the middle of the page (with old design I can - not to mention hitting that logo is much easier than hitting the link in the footer).
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 555 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 17:38
  • msg #615

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to BFink (msg # 614):

You can hit the little 'up' arrows that are tethered to the bottom and top righthand corners of your screen (the screen itself, they're there regardless of where you are on the page) and go to the top and click the main menu logo link. Yes, it does add one extra click for the little arrow, but you don't have to scroll up OR down.

Edit: Alternatively, you can also hit the 'Forum Menu' link on the righthand side (on desktop) and then the main logo link, or (on mobile) the 'Main Menu' link on the top and then 'Home'.
This message was last edited by the user at 17:42, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
bottleface
member, 6 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 17:44
  • msg #616

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to gowkaiser96 (msg # 605):

Thank you, this helped me to find the maximum page width, though I actually had to rely on ctrl f. I was confused about where it was though.

2000 pixels definitely helps in that I no longer have 2/3's of my screen filled with blank space. Now it's only about a quarter. One of my favourite things about classic rpol was that it actually made use of my screen unlike most websites. However, I recognize that after 15 years some things have to change.
liblarva
member, 801 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 18:37
  • msg #617

Re: RPoL Design Update

At what point will the old interface no longer be accessible?
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 556 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 18:48
  • msg #618

Re: RPoL Design Update

Presumably sometime on December 23rd, according to the announcement.

My understanding from previous discussions in this thread, which may be incorrect, is that the old interface will become the new interface - so it's less an issue of inaccessibility and more a case of no longer existing. Much like the caterpillar becomes the butterfly. (I could be wrong.)
This message was last edited by the user at 18:49, Sun 26 Nov 2023.
jedi078
member, 103 posts
Robotech
It gets into your blood
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 19:47
  • msg #619

Re: RPoL Design Update

Is there a thread somewhere for posting oddities and bugs, or ask a general question about the design?
BFink
member, 97 posts
Sun 26 Nov 2023
at 20:55
  • msg #620

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 615):

Forum Menu works for me, thanks for suggesting it!
jase
admin, 3864 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 00:21

Re: RPoL Design Update

I can fix the nav bar to the top of the screen, that's easily done (for clarity - just the thin nav section, not the entire thing).

Will look into the images, they should be full width with a "lightbox".
Ezri
member, 357 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 01:07
  • msg #622

Re: RPoL Design Update

While I've been avoiding it in hopes it'll just sit in beta forever it should be fine, just having to adapt to the new layout - I like the current clean version but understand the need to change - still, been here since at least 2005 (going by the new visible signup date) so am very set in my ways!

But I do have an actual question, not just complaining and realising how long I've been here..

Is there a setting anywhere that I can set the Game Info page to always have the "additional information" showing by default? As GM I use that screen to check login times, to know if someone is around and to keep an eye out for a response, etc. And now when I refresh I then have to move my mouse around to check everyone, instead of the current ease of the 'one look' page.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:21, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
StitchWitch
member, 16 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 02:24
  • msg #623

Re: RPoL Design Update

Not sure if this is a known issue yet or not. I type up my posts in Google Docs and then copy and paste into a message. In the old RPoL, the quotation symbols show up fine. In the new RPoL, they don't show up at all. I can provide screenshots if needed. Not a huge deal since I color my speech but an oddity probably due to some background non-sense. I am noticing it in posts done under the old RPoL site only.
ObsidianJaguar
member, 12 posts
Farmer
Stay at home mom
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 02:44
  • msg #624

Re: RPoL Design Update

Im not certain if this has been mentioned - apologies if it is a duplicate - but in recent days I have noticed that on the Responsive site, the "Last Logged In" date has vanished from the Cast list. It is still there on the non-responsive version.

This may seem minor but it is very helpful, both when looking at joining a game (how many characters are active?) and in existing games to see whether someone you are posting with has logged in.

Will this functionality be gone entirely with the new site then? It used to be available on Responsive so I assume it was removed intentionally?
tmagann
member, 914 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 02:50
  • msg #625

Re: RPoL Design Update

I have the last logged in date, but the time portion of that date/time indicator is missing, and that was a handy GM tool for me. Is it going to be restored?
Siran
member, 183 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 03:43
  • msg #626

Re: RPoL Design Update

It still exists... mouse over the date of last post
This message was last edited by the user at 03:45, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
nauthiz
subscriber, 786 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 03:49
  • msg #627

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to ObsidianJaguar (msg # 624):

That was removed intentionally from player view.  There was a debate starting around msg#400 in this thread regarding the pros/cons of that change.
liblarva
member, 802 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 06:10
  • msg #628

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to nauthiz (msg # 627):

I really hope that comes back. It’s incredibly helpful in keeping track of players and how dead games are.
liblarva
member, 803 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 06:12
  • [deleted]
  • msg #629

Re: RPoL Design Update

This message was deleted by the user at 06:13, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
Ramidel
member, 1416 posts
Err on the side
of awesome.
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 06:34
  • msg #630

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to liblarva (msg # 628):

+1
gowkaiser96
supporter, 17 posts
Penetrate Section Z
Destroy L Brain
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 06:46
  • msg #631

Re: RPoL Design Update

liblarva:
In reply to nauthiz (msg # 627):

I really hope that comes back. It’s incredibly helpful in keeping track of players and how dead games are.

While others have mentioned it still works even if you are just a co-gm and not the main GM, and why it not being a player option is also understandable... This reminds me, now groups are a mouse over stat instead of openly displayed. Thank goodness none of the games my friends created bother with group settings and it is just group zero, because we didn't want to risk "Wait did we forget to give X group to character Y?" issues.

Which in turn made me realize, when basically every post is hidden from public view behind a group # filter. Yeah that makes it harder for an outsider to eyeball activity levels without the last logged in bit on the cast. Even if I understand why log times as a GM only function makes sense.

Though one thing that is easy to overlook until you have started using the new cast list? When you don't want the extra info/buttons, it makes scrolling down a longer cast list look really wild as various cast entries expand and contract as your mouse pointer is skimmed past them by the mousewheel action, unless you deliberately keep your mouse pointer off to the side while scrolling.

Seems like a "phone biased" design oversight? not in a sarcastic way. Phones you have to tap on the entry on purpose to expand. So scrolling past would not look like a malfunctioning accordion on a phone, like it does on desktop. An expand all by default setting in the options would solve that, because even a laptop monitor is big enough that would not make it harder to scroll through *Eyes game* at least fifty+ undeleted DND characters and NPCs over the years, like it would on a phone.

Glad it is just a "Well, that is mildly annoying" issue at worst though.
This message was last edited by the user at 07:00, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
Siran
member, 186 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 08:05
  • msg #632

Re: RPoL Design Update

Good practice with reactive design is to start it as a phone application. Many many people will be accessing RPOL often through their phone (me for instance). If it looks good on the phone, it's much easier to make it look good on a monitor afterwards. It's all just CSS and the new site responds well to CSS

The bad news is that people dislike intensely functionality they are used to being removed 'because they don't need it'. Or because 'it's better that way'. That's NOT how modern design principles tell us to do things. They tell us to do things like A/B testing and see what people want by their actions

But it's a hobby for the creators of RPOL. It's a free service. And a good one. The consequences of that is that we don't get a say
theseeker
member, 43 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 08:13
  • msg #633

Re: RPoL Design Update

Oh, we get a say. But the creators have veto.
jase
admin, 3865 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 08:19
  • msg #634

Re: RPoL Design Update

All odd characters/codes etc (that's valid) should work when posted on responsive and viewed on the same.  If you're aware of anything let me know via linking in rMail.

In reply to gowkaiser96 (msg # 631):

GMs are actually expected to put the bulk of threads in group 0.

As for the cast list, I think I can add a longer delay until the row expands.  Not sure of another option except permanently having it all expanded.
LuckyOne
member, 128 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 08:45
  • msg #635

Re: RPoL Design Update

Looks good, well done,
Trivial details, on the main page, the heading of each section is almost double the size of the game names "Games you Own", "Discussion Boards" so on.

As far as importance of information requiring larger size to be noticed, the headers are of least importance and essentially take up twice the space x4 categories, pushing stuff off the bottom of the page, for those who follow alot of forums at least. It also means the first thing someone does is scroll down pushing the banner off the top of the page, the banner itself has alot of dead space above it.

Yes trivial details, but it's exactly why I mention them as they would be so easy to adjust, With a little tightening up of these few things everything could fit on the screen.

While I am sure someone will mention glasses or just increasing text size, that's my point entirely, if I increase text size, suddenly those headers are triple the size.

-Also wonder if having the portrait below or above the name on the far left wouldn't allow for alot wider post size.



Like everyone else, sadly miss the 'last logged on' for a character in cast list, often people with multiple characters might still be actively posting for one, but their other character might be stuck with an inactive rp buddy, now it will look like that characters player is inactive which is not the case. Considering how quiet Freeform games have gotten with so many games full of inactives, this will make it even harder to determine which games are active, dead or dying. It really is important player info, not just GM info.

Thanks again Rpol team.



*Thank you for testing out the new responsive site for RPoL. If you wish to submit feedback or ask questions please visit RPoL Development.*
Ezri
member, 358 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 08:54
  • msg #636

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Not sure of another option except permanently having it all expanded.

Yes this. 100% this. Make the Cast List open and visible, so I can see the login times all at once and easily.

I also won't pretend that I'm not trying to champion my own issue of just wanting to be able to see everyone's login times at once when I open the cast menu, instead of having to click on or hover over every single person individually.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:07, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
DeeYin
member, 52 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 09:43
  • msg #637

Re: RPoL Design Update

Someone else had mentioned that the old warning had been there so long that it was 'just noise' and that was absolutely true- at this point it had looked just as a design, not an actual warning. So I did appreciate the new message at the top, that actually did serve as a notice the way the old one never did. Also, the FAQ helped a lot. There is always some sourness to having to switch, but the FAQ, short as it was, gave me the understanding of the need for the changeover and eliminated that feeling. So, in those two areas, a resounding success for the changeover for me, at least.

(I do rather wish the changeover had been in January after the holidays though, rather than right before them, since there is already a lot of other things to focus on. *L*)

Looking at the new site- the only issue that I have noticed at the moment is some of the things I had saved in game scratchpads are now just odd characters. Mostly it is punctuation or non-English language characters, but fortunately, it is nothing that cannot be replaced or rewritten. I assume that is a product of the transition, and the new site will save them correctly, if rewritten and emplaced into the new site's scratchpad.

Fixing the navigation bar to the top of the screen would be wonderful- like BFink, I use it the same way often. Having to make an extra click or two is certainly not an onerous task, but not as nice as the one large icon click.

Agree that the ability to see GM 'last login' will be missed.

In terms of adding features, I have often wondered if a scratchpad feature could be added to the user preference/profile on the main page? The games all have scratchpads, and it is something that is immensely helpful in keeping track of various issues within. It might also be helpful to have such a thing available to the user for keeping track of pertinent issues related to the overall site as well.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:44, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 560 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 11:50
  • msg #638

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
As for the cast list, I think I can add a longer delay until the row expands.  Not sure of another option except permanently having it all expanded.

Jase, I think it was brought up before way back when the Cast List first went in, but would it be possible to have a checkbox OPTION in the Game Preferences to have the Cast List permanently expanded vs. reactive? Or perhaps a GM option in the GM menu, since the additional information is really only useful to GMs (except in the rare instance that someone might want to rMail another player that hasn't posted anywhere, I suppose...)

I'll admit that I was one of the people that didn't like the expansion when it first went that way, but I'm used to it now (and it really IS nicer on the phone, when I don't have space to see the entire cast list without scrolling if it's expanded). I think others would eventually GET used to it to, but if they can't/won't then if it could be made optional that would perhaps be the best of both worlds.
jase
admin, 3866 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 12:09
  • msg #639

Re: RPoL Design Update

DeeYin:
Agree that the ability to see GM 'last login' will be missed.

That's a fair point, it's now shown again for GM personas.

Can always make the full PC experience a click action (to expand) as well.  Think that's possible.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 561 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 12:11
  • msg #640

Re: RPoL Design Update

As a champion of not having Last Login show to players, I have no complaints with having it display for the GM persona(s). That feels like a fair compromise.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:11, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
Ramidel
member, 1417 posts
Err on the side
of awesome.
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 12:34
  • msg #641

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 639):

Definitely prefer it as an option to set in your preferences (so I don't need to clixpand).
LuckyOne
member, 129 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 14:14
  • msg #642

Re: RPoL Design Update

How is a player meant to determine if a game is dying or not, without the 'last logon of players' (who have multiple characters) Previously you could use it to get a good idea of which player controlled which characters and give you an idea of how many players were actually left in the game.

Wouldn't it infact make players more cautious of which games they joined? Cast list is the first thing I look at when looking to join a game.

I've done the bit where you join a game you think might have a shred of a chance an get invested in your character only to realize the game is dead an someones in denial, it's no fun, all which can be avoided with information like last log in to paint a picture.

Sorry to bang on about it, I just can't comprehend the negative side of having it (not to say there isn't one, just don't understand)
ObsidianJaguar
member, 13 posts
Farmer
Stay at home mom
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 14:22
  • msg #643

Re: RPoL Design Update

I read through the old discussion about Last Login functionality - thanks for the reference of where it was.

jase:
While I appreciate the voracity and volume of your replies (and haven't had a chance to fully digest them) there's one thing I will remind you all... if adding or removing a feature is contentious then I won't do it unless there's an overwhelming vote to do so (or it's just otherwise unavoidable).

So we'll be sticking with last logon available, I'll just have to tweak so last post (which affects obfuscation calculations) includes private messages.


Sadly that conversation is 3 years old, and this heartening quote doesn't seem to hold true anymore.

From a GM perspective I can understand why hiding this information could be useful, but as a player, not being able to see it is a dealbreaker for me. With how often being ghosted is a reality in games - by players and by GMs - not being able to see if someone is vanished or just is not yet able to get a post up feels like playing Russian Roulette. Determining the activeness and viability of a game is simply more important to me than obscuring who is playing what character(s). I don't think I'm alone in that, though I could be wrong, it's happened before :D

I appreciate the vast amount of work that has gone into RPoL, the creators and mods and admins have made a really amazing thing here. I judt want to stress that for some of us, this is a very significant negative change. I have used the responsive site on my phone for years and stopped using it once this change occurred. Only now am I realizing that soon I won't have the option to just go to my computer and get that information that Im looking for.
LuckyOne
member, 130 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 14:39
  • msg #644

Re: RPoL Design Update

Earlier someone mentioned GM last logon being a compromise, it's quite a limited compromise which doesn't really compromise on the ability to judge if a game is active or not based off the cast list as a whole, Gm could just be logging on to chat with a friend. Heck a sneaky Gm could just do a post for all those characters an you would be non the wiser without last log on.

Would it be possible to just have players last log in MONTH not, month an day.

Last week, last fortnight, last month.
As that would be a viable compromise to gauge if a game is active or not.

It would still give players freedom from any stalkerish side of it, or anonymity of whose character is whose, if that is the issue, but would give an accurate indication of if the Characters' player is infact active or not.
jase
admin, 3867 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 15:11

Re: RPoL Design Update

LuckyOne:
Previously you could use it to get a good idea of which player controlled which characters

That's what was being abused and was causing issue.  Logon times were deliberately obfuscated for players but there's only so much trickery we can do and people were going to great lengths to figure out who controlled what.  Apparently in some games it was actually breaking the gameplay.

Part of RPoL's core principles is anonymity and separation of players from characters but alas there's far too much temptation and the cast list was being abused, which was the tipping point for me.  Players were checking the cast list every day (or multiple times per day) and using oddities in the last logon obfuscation to figure out who had multiple characters and who controlled what.  We could make it vaguer but people will still pick up on obfuscation oddities ("last week it said they'd logged in last month, now it says last fortnight") and if it's too vague why wouldn't you just use last post?

Last post actually tells you when someone last actively participated in a game, after all do I care if someone logged on today to click "mark all as read" if they last posted 6 months ago?  I would posit that last posts are far more important than last logons, but I'm not so invested as to call either way a dealbreaker.


As for the expanding cast list - I couldn't get it to only work on-click for PC so I've increased the hover delay for machines with "fine" (i.e. mouse) input.

Images in descriptions, sheets and a whole bunch of other places should now have a maximum width of 100%.

Did we want the nav bar fixed to the top of the screen?  Basically it'll scroll up (a bit like the side menus) but stop when it reaches the top of the screen.  Already tested it's possible and got it working, just need to update all the CSS if we do.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 562 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 15:24
  • msg #646

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Did we want the nav bar fixed to the top of the screen?  Basically it'll scroll up (a bit like the side menus) but stop when it reaches the top of the screen.  Already tested it's possible and got it working, just need to update all the CSS if we do.


It can't hurt, although I'm not sure it's 100% necessary. The top bar is already there on mobile, so you could get the same visual look on desktop, but then you have the sidebar already and that makes it seem extraneous. What about a 'Main Page' or 'Home' block in the sidebar? Either as part of the 'Your Account' block, or maybe as its own block at the top (above 'This Thread') or bottom (below 'Your Account') in whatever color someone has their nav bar set as?

As an aside but kind of related, have we never had the little Up/Down arrows when in a Game Menu or did they recently disappear?
patchwolf
member, 63 posts
Software Tester
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 15:32
  • msg #647

Re: RPoL Design Update

I add my vote to the fixed headers.  It's good web design practice, giving a consistent (for everywhere inside a scrollable page) and natural navigation.

People who read from top-to-bottom and left-to-right (which includes the majority of languages used by the majority of earthlings) will naturally use their eyes to scan from the top-left of a page to the bottom-right (unless content is presented in two columns, in which case they'll travel in a V-shape from top-left to middle-bottom, then back up to top-right) -- and this is before they start reading; it's just the initial scan.  having the Home button permanently in that top-left spot will utilise that natural tendency and make so easy to remember how to get back to the "home" page that they won't even realise how easy it is.

Sorry, usability is one of those things I tend to nerd out about.
tmagann
member, 916 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 16:57
  • msg #648

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Did we want the nav bar fixed to the top of the screen?  Basically it'll scroll up (a bit like the side menus) but stop when it reaches the top of the screen.  Already tested it's possible and got it working, just need to update all the CSS if we do.


Yes, please. I keep looking for a Home/Main Menu button at the bottom of the screen. I've found work arounds, depending one type of furm, but my reflexes aren't trained, yet.
liblarva
member, 804 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 17:21
  • msg #649

Re: RPoL Design Update

>I would posit that last posts are far more important than last logons, but I'm not so invested as to call either way a dealbreaker.

It’s not a dealbreaker for me either, but having both last post and last login are great information to have as the GM.
PomposLantern
member, 46 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 19:46
  • msg #650

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
In reply to PomposLantern (msg # 611):

Aha!

No, that IS weird.

When I run across descriptions with overlarge images, the text fits fully to the mobile screen, and I have to scroll over if I want to see the farthest right portion of the image (which isn't a big deal and doesn't bother me at all - I'd rather an image I can see the detail in but have to scroll over a miniscule image that fits without scrolling).

Something is definitely up with yours.

For what it's worth, that looks like the default responsive theme (maybe?) Mine is custom, and I have set my maximum page width (a setting you can get to with the Custom Theme link on your main Preferences page) to 1600 pixels, which is higher than the default.


So the bad news: I was using the default theme and tried to make a custom one last night with the 1600 wide pixels. Unfortunately, there were no changes.

The GOOD news is that the issue seems to be fixed as of this morning! I checked through some of the cast lists and info pages in my games and everything is fitting nicely like on the old site. I didn't make any changes to my phone so I'm going to assume one of the moderators looked into it.

If you have a Samsung, I would suggest double-checking the images outside the main forums (cast descriptions for example) to see if your mobile screen (vertical) stretches to fit the width of the images instead of being minimized in the text box automatically. Just to make sure this fix wasn't something weird I did on my end by accident.

The only things that still break the mobile vertical view boundary are tables, but their widths are usually set to specific pixels. The old mobile site did minimize them to fit the text box boundary depending on how you tilted your phone, so might be worth looking into. Still, that should be easier to work around by changing up the table widths.

Thank you to whoever fixed that bug!
This message was last edited by the user at 19:50, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
LuckyOne
member, 131 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 21:48
  • msg #651

Re: RPoL Design Update

Hey thanks for explaining the reasons why not, an they are valuable reasons anonymity an such, but that won't matter if players can't gauge if a game is active or not as they won't join the game to start with, or will end up joining dead games repeatedly and end up quitting due to the frustration.
The issue seems to only be being looked at from the GMs perspective, or from within a game, which won't matter if player intake drops.
jase:
Last post actually tells you when someone last actively participated in a game, after all do I care if someone logged on today to click "mark all as read" if they last posted 6 months ago?  I would posit that last posts are far more important than last logons, but I'm not so invested as to call either way a dealbreaker.

To answer quote specifically, The combination of both is important, as they may not have anyone to rp with and be checking in to see if anything has changed due to new players or other players going inactive creating openings, have encountered that exact situation as a player looking to join games.

2 characters, 1 player, BOB last post today, ROB last post three months ago (as their rp buddy went inactive and haven't found anyone to interact with since) Without last logon, it will be assumed that the character with a 3 month last post is also Inactive, which is infact not true.

With last logon, you can see the player controlling the seemingly inactive character is still around and a viable option of who is around to rp with just that they don't have anyone to rp with.


It will make more games look inactive, which will make it even harder to figure out.


On the flip side it could make dead games look active, like a GM with 4 characters an 5 inactive players an the games dead. The game will look active when infact it's long since dead.

There is shiftiness on both sides of the coin and without Last Logon, players in games will NEED to stoop to OOC posting for a character who does not have anyone to rp with, just so that character appears active. So all of a sudden Last post will be just lies.



Last month activity, would at least give some guidance and maintain anonymity to a point of doubt, but would still help indicate if a game is active or not. Which is a far bigger problem then who rps who, if we aren't getting players, or aren't able to find active games, it won't matter.


I have literally seen a game where a player with one character had not posted for 4 months in a game as there was no-one to post with, but they were actively present and I contacted them because I could see they were checking in the game with last log on, they explained that they were waiting on new players, or someone to go inactive to create an opening in game play.


Ok I'm going to put this inactively dead horse to rest an drop the topic, thanks for being so engaged with the player base, you are the best :D An what a great launch of new version that, this trivial detail is seemingly one of the most mentioned issues :D Well Done..
This message was last edited by the user at 21:58, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
Chernobyl
supporter, 170 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 22:24
  • [deleted]
  • msg #652

Re: RPoL Design Update

This message was deleted by the user at 22:24, Mon 27 Nov 2023.
tmagann
member, 917 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2023
at 23:42
  • msg #653

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm not sure if this is just me or not, but on Responsive I'm seeing the "new post" flag repeatedly in one game where the posts are not to threads I'm part of.
Chernobyl
supporter, 171 posts
Area of desolate waste,
Mutation Central.
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 00:13
  • msg #654

Re: RPoL Design Update

It's not just you.

As a side note, is there a way that we can configure certain colours to work a different way?

I generally use a black background, and if people use dark blue or brown for speech it makes it super tough to read. I get that the fix might just have to be "don't use black backgrounds", but it would be nice if another workaround happened :)
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 564 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 00:59
  • msg #655

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've got no idea about posts to threads you don't have access to tripping the New Message notification, but there has been a thing for a while now where GMs manipulating threads or characters (generally by changing Group access is where I've seen it the most) is also flagging games as having new posts in them.
Greymist
member, 36 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 05:43
  • msg #656

Re: RPoL Design Update

Is there any way to adjust the font size? I didn't see anything under themes, but my eyes are old! How about the padding in the rows?

I much prefer tables to display information for any of the posting list pages. Having two lines as a default makes each row taller than it needs to be; reducing the number of rows on-screen.

I think status images (Notice, New Post, etc) should be side-by-side, not one-on-top of the other.

Before I start poking around too much, does the new site allow for more HTML/CSS to make tables on the Character Sheet or in posts?
This message was last edited by the user at 05:59, Tue 28 Nov 2023.
JohnB
supporter, 2128 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 05:52
  • msg #657

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've been using the new design on my phone for quite a while, and don't have any problem with it on the PC (where I do most of my posting).  I've just been too lazy to change to the responsive site on the PC, and I know my way around the old interface better.  I am happy with the way that it looks and feels - as, I suspect, are most of the people who are using it already.  :)

It just takes a while to get used to.
jase
admin, 3868 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 11:01

Re: RPoL Design Update

Have stickied the nav bar.  Update your theme if you use one (edit, save) and you're seeing a big ugly black border around it.

Font size is ~12% larger than old, if you want it even larger then you'll have to zoom.  That'll also increase spacing for you.

If dark blue and brown aren't working on the darker themes then I can review, I thought they were the same as current though.

Cast list discussion/negotiation/argument will have to involve those far more invested in it than I.  I'm happy to reimplement "last logon" and make it suitably vague if that satisfies all parties, my only viewpoint on it is it can't be used to circumvent anonymity.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 565 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 13:03
  • msg #659

Re: RPoL Design Update

I don't think there's any way to reimplement Last Logon and make it suitably vague enough to prevent ANY abuse (deliberate or accidental). (Edit: Okay, maybe if you made it pull a completely random day - but at that point, why bother?)

As I've said before, but I'll reiterate since we have a lot more people involved in the discussion now, one of the big problems with Last Logon being visible is that it works differently for GMs than it does for players - both in how it's applied to their characters and in what they see.

A GM -ALWAYS- sees fully accurate, but most importantly player-tethered Last Logon. Every GM alias, GMPC, GM-controlled NPC, ALWAYS shows the last time the GM was online. There is no way, as a GM, to see what the players see for Last Logons - unless you logout and go search up your game and look at the cast list.

Non-GMs see "obfuscated" Last Login times for GM-controlled characters. These trip to 'Today' when a GM-controlled character posts, but then start to fall off gradually to the point that the character can appear to have not logged in for YEARS if they haven't posted recently. The problem here is that THE GM CAN'T SEE THIS. More than once, someone has said 'Hey GM, I notice that <GMPC> hasn't logged in in a while. Is he okay?' only for the GM to look at the cast list and go 'What are you talking about, <GMPC> logged in today?' because that's what they see.

Now, GMs can trip Last Logins for PCs and NPCs that they control by posting for them - but that requires remembering to make a post somewhere regularly (thankfully, PMs do now work!) in order to keep updated Last Logins showing. It sounds easy, but in practice, it's really hard to remember. This ALSO isn't "safe" because making a PM *WILL* (sometimes) update a character's Last Post to 'Today', and astute players who monitor cast lists will eventually figure out that characters are routinely posting places they can't see. (Thankfully, the new build DID remove Groups from responsive, so you can at least put all PCs that need logins tripped in the same Group, but again, it'll trip their Last Post and the same people who are astute enough to track Cast Lists also tend to get their knickers in a twist if they think/suspect that groups of PCs are "doing something" in a group they're not in...)

Players have LESS control to obfuscate secondary or tertiary characters that they control, because their Last Logon always trips for every character they control, every time they log in to a game. Always. In games where players might control more than one character, particularly for players that might have login times that are not the same as the rest of the players due to real-world time zone differences, it's practically impossible for them to maintain the illusion that the PCs aren't all controlled by the same person.

Ultimately, why does that matter?

Because players aren't good at resisting the urge to metagame. NPCs and GMPCs get treated differently than "regular members of the party" - everyone knows this. Players develop biases against certain characters and then aren't willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a completely different character that they know/find out/suspect is played by the same person. I've seen this happen more times than I can count, to the point that it's absolutely ruined the enjoyment of a game for people.

Last Logon times being visible to players reveals that information in a way that players have no control over. (And even though GMs -do- have some means of control over how Last Logons display for their PCs, they're often in the dark about the need to do so.) Ultimately, that's unfair. RPoL goes to great lengths to provide anonymity between Game PC and RPoL User, but it falls short when people are able to figure out what PCs "go together" under the same person's control by tracking Last Logins - particularly with regards to GMPCs and GMNPCs, because the GM's RPoL User name is always available to all players.

I could argue that there's no real reason for players to see Last Logon, but obviously some people think there is. In the end, though, I feel that the need to maintain the anonymity of who controls what particular PC trumps the desire to see "how active" other players are - especially when Last Post is already a better indicator of that.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:26, Tue 28 Nov 2023.
Skald
moderator, 1012 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 13:31
  • msg #660

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase - works perfectly - Edit theme, hit Create! (as an aside, should that be Save if it's an existing theme ?) and the thick nav bar borders were no more. :>

My 5.5 cents worth on last login  - everything SunRuanEr said.  Useful info for GM, but shouldn't be visible to Players. As jase has pointed out Player anonymity is the key.  We've had occasional issues with stalkers tracking particular players for the sole purpose of harrassing them and we really don't want to make that easier.
Ezri
member, 359 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 13:34
  • msg #661

Re: RPoL Design Update

What I find interesting SunRuanEr is the core of your argument is the idea of people "figuring out" GMPCs, and that's not a problem I'd considered in probably 10 years here - partially because I call out my GMPCs and haven't had any issues with them - but also most games that I see "secret" GMPCs it's usually pretty obvious due to very similar Character description styles (or funnily enough very different styles, when they try too hard to hide it). But hey, maybe there are also a bunch of hidden GM characters that I don't notice!

(Also you can easily view the public version of your Cast list through incognito modes, most browsers will let you right click on 'The Cast' and select 'Open Link in Private Window' or whatever, if you want to see what the players see in one click that doesn't require logging out)

I suspect others have more nuanced and example filled reasons, as these days I stick to solo games these days due to mental health issues, but the reason that many others are interested in player login dates is just that, other players. As others have mentioned, post date alone can be pretty useless when players are still around just not posting for that character, or like me and take breaks from rpol but do jump in from time to time - and login date would give others the information that I'm around and they can reach out (my anxiety frequently prevents me flagging me presence, but someone seeing me around shoots me a message and we're golden). As mentioned, looking a group game you're considering joining might look far less active if you just see post date, but everyone is hopping in each day to see what's going on, and maybe a bunch of characters are waiting for partners and have logged in to read what others are posting but not posting themselves, looking inactive.

I guess the difference is viewpoints, you're assuming the worst and want to prevent people abusing the login system, others have a more optimistic view and just want to use the login system to know which characters/players are around to inform the likelihood of interactions.

I'm not going to pretend both types of players don't exist, it's really just which side Jase wants to favor. I personally feel there's only a few bad eggs that might exploit the system (which probably get blacklisted from most games once discovered), the rest of us just want to be aware of what's going. Or maybe I'm just overestimating the maturity of the userbase.
patchwolf
member, 64 posts
Software Tester
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 14:18
  • msg #662

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ezri:
I guess the difference is viewpoints, you're assuming the worst and want to prevent people abusing the login system, others have a more optimistic view and just want to use the login system to know which characters/players are around to inform the likelihood of interactions.


This is accurate.  It's also 100% the reason this needs to be obfuscated.  As a developer building the feature one must consider the worst-case scenario, because you're helping to make it possible.  Harassment is a real problem for some people -- and the type of person who is likely to repetitively harass someone else is exactly the type who would use every tool available at their disposal to do it.  It sucks for the 99% of people who just want to be able to tell if a game is active or not, but on the grand balance scale, it just doesn't measure up.

Peter Parker:
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don’t ... and then the bad things happen ... they happen because of you."


To modify the phrase a little... When you can build it in a way that protects people, and you dont... and then someone gets harassed or stalked... it happens because you let it.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:42, Tue 28 Nov 2023.
rogar308
supporter, 805 posts
Gaming is good!
Got RPOL in my soul
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 15:02
  • msg #663

Re: RPoL Design Update

Nice dev work. Looks a whole lot more modern. Really like the right side links. It will take a bit getting used to the new design but that's mostly because old dogs are sometime slow to pick up new things.

One thing I did notice is that while the group information is listed for the threads it is not  very visibly separated like it is for the old site. That may not be a big deal for players as I limit the PC's to the threads (games) that they are involved in but for a GM it is pretty important. May I suggest making a color change for the group info for the threads like you have for the old site as that will make it much easier for a GM to notice & focus on the game(s) threads he wants to address for a particular group.

I understand one can use the filter option to filter to a particular group(s) but quite frankly when you start having a lot of groups I frequently don't remember which group(s) apply to which game. I suppose I could add a group designation in the title of the threads but the whole problem for me at least would be solved with the group color change per the old site.

Less important but also desired would be the color change to the NOTICE threads.

If making the color changes by default are not desired perhaps we could add an option for a GM to enable the color change?

On a humorous note, we need to add a link to order pizza.. :P
This message was last edited by the user at 15:44, Tue 28 Nov 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 566 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 15:14
  • msg #664

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
As for the expanding cast list - I couldn't get it to only work on-click for PC so I've increased the hover delay for machines with "fine" (i.e. mouse) input.

Just noticed this in action when checking a game.

It's nice to be able to scroll without everything immediately opening as I roll over it, but the delay feels maybe a little -too- long? I was about to come in here and say 'yo, my cast list isn't expanding!' when it finally expanded. <.<
Siryuu
member, 2 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 17:23
  • msg #665

Re: RPoL Design Update

Siryuu:
Was the removal of the features or changes surveyed and voted?
A forum with over 10 million posts and almost 7 thousand games should at least provide its users with this chance.

  1. This thread might serve to collect opinions and find what changes raise the most concerns; at this point users might debate.
  2. But then, the topics that raise the most awareness must be voted.

That would be my suggestion, thanks for your interest in improving things for the users.
Xenoviel
subscriber, 36 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 17:42
  • msg #666

Re: RPoL Design Update

The first message in this thread was on 6 April 2017. This is an open forum that anyone on the site can read and post in. So yes. The changes were 100% surveyed and the users had an opportunity to opine about the development of the new version of the site.

It is a little late to enter the conversation now to suggest that the past six years didn't happen just because you may not have bothered to participate during them.
JohnB
supporter, 2129 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 17:44
  • msg #667

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Siryuu (msg # 665):

Siryuu -  can I suggest that you click on the rPoll link at the top of the page?   I voted, some years ago, for a fully responsive interface - along with the majority of the other users of the site.  Since then, jase and his team have worked to implement that -  and put in years of effort to get to this stage of development.  Rather than being niggled at, I think jase needs thanking profusely for his dedication to the site and the work that he puts into it -  over the last twenty years or so.

I am happy to say that I have been playing here since all the games fitted on one page  (and that was a very long time ago)  :)  Since then, I have seen the interface change a couple of times, as well as other work that has gone into the site, to keep it up to date and fresh.  Personally, I am just very happy that Jase (and his Mods, Coders, etc) gives so much of his time, for free, so that I can play the game that I love.

Thank you jase and Mods  :)
rogar308
supporter, 806 posts
Gaming is good!
Got RPOL in my soul
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 18:14
  • msg #668

Re: RPoL Design Update

It is a little late to enter the conversation now to suggest that the past six years didn't happen just because you may not have bothered to participate during them.
->I'm going to refrain from what I really want to say about this comment and instead say that site changes are always on-going. Not encouraging feedback 'now' or anytime for that matter is not helpful. Anyone providing feedback is taking the time and effort to do so. Granted, not all suggetsions or recommendations already made, being made or future ones can be done. I think most folks understand that. That said, acquiring feedback is an important process on how the site is made better. I would humbly ask everyone to please not disrepect that.
Xenoviel
subscriber, 37 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 18:47
  • msg #669

Re: RPoL Design Update

With respect to the discussion of last login time.

As a GM, it's important to know when my players are present or not. If I see someone logging in every other day who is clearly (to my perspective) "up" in a thread but hasn't posted in over a week, I can use that information to reach out to that player to see if they're doing all right or if the information I think is clear may not be. This is great and useful.

As a player, knowing when someone last logged in is useful for exactly two things: puzzling out if someone is playing multiple characters and being nosy about participation. I don't really think it's players' business whether their peers are present - outside of those folks posting when necessary. This new setup, where players can see last post dates, covers that nicely. It eliminates the temptation to be nosy.

I can also happily agree with SunRuanEr's assertion that players absolutely have a tendency to treat characters differently depending on whether they know who is playing them. I've caught myself doing it. I'm just as guilty as anyone of kinda reflexively defaulting to being IC friends with my friends. If I can work out that X player is controlling both Y and Z characters then my opinions of the player and both characters are eventually going to resolve into one and the same. It's part of human nature, we all do it without thinking about it. I think the obfuscation that stands in the way of this needs to be robust. Definitely keep this as it is now.
jase
admin, 3869 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 28 Nov 2023
at 23:48

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've been messing with the cast list some more, trying to make the obfuscation less predicable and vaguer - dialling it down to "Today", "Recently", "A while ago" and "Ages ago".  I even got help-hover tips for GMs to show what players would see so GMs prone to inserting feet in mouth are forewarned... but the "dates" ended up being so vague as I wonder as to whether it's of any use at all.  Especially compared to last post.

So about two hours into this it dawned on me that the cast list has been lying to you all anyway.  It's always manipulated the last logon date in an attempt to disconnect players from characters and a large part of that manipulation basis is... last post date.  Worse than that the logon date shown for the character is in no way based on the last logon date of the controlling player.

So I can put something back but it's wrong and always has been.  It's a manipulation of the last post date with a bunch of other modifiers thrown in.  As mentioned before I'd recommend using last post as that's the accurate version of what you've been looking at all this time.

As before I'll leave the overall discussion with those more invested in it than I, if the placebo "last logon" is needed then I can push forward with what I've been trialling.
liblarva
member, 805 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 01:15
  • msg #671

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 670):

To be clear, this is only the player-facing info or is this also the GM-facing info?
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 567 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 01:19
  • msg #672

Re: RPoL Design Update

That's fantastic that you've been messing with it, jase. Much appreciated.

That said, I do agree that if the "dates" are as vague (read: completely random) as they'd need to be, they'd be of no use at all anyway.

Since others have brought up the very real instances of stalking and harassment, however (which was honestly not the tack I was coming from, but is certainly even more important than my own concerns about bias), I have a question:

No matter how vague the presented dates are, or how convoluted the algorithm is, can you /guarantee/ that a player won't have their characters in /different/ games ever display the same Last Logon information? (I specifically ask this because there probably IS a way to make their characters /within/ a game trigger differently, much like what GMs have had happening to their characters for a while now - although since that falls off during periods of not posting, it wouldn't actually look like the PC was logging in if they weren't posting anyway, which circles back around to needing to use Last Post to really get an idea of activity. But I digress, there.)

Even if the Last Logon was something as vague as "Has the character logged in during the last month? Yes/No", it could be sufficient cause for a stalker to suspect two PCs of belonging to the same player if suddenly one character on a cast list goes to 'NO' at the same time as another character on /another/ Cast List also goes to 'NO'. A lot of the game systems that are used on RPoL have pretty small groups of steady players that circulate among them, and if you happen to play one of those systems you're probably already aware of that. Among those player circles it's not a far leap to discern that two characters, even in different games, probably belong to the same person if they're exhibiting the same Last Logon trends or oddities (like repeatedly tripping in the middle of the night, or being the one PC that goes to "Ages Ago" in a cast full of "Recently").

I really do think that the only way you can be 100% certain that someone will not utilize game-provided information (ie, information that the player has no control over providing) to tie two different characters to a particular user is to not have that information available at all.
Sardis
member, 764 posts
Nova Scotia, Canada
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 03:38
  • msg #673

Re: RPoL Design Update

Apologies if this has been mentioned...but with the new rpol site, player group designations from the cast screen don't seem to be viewable.
patchwolf
member, 65 posts
Software Tester
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 03:43
  • msg #674

Re: RPoL Design Update

From a player's view that's intentional.  The GM view still shows the group allocations.
Sardis
member, 765 posts
Nova Scotia, Canada
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 03:55
  • msg #675

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks.
nauthiz
subscriber, 787 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 04:18
  • msg #676

Re: RPoL Design Update

So, I don't suppose it would be possible to just make the Last Login an optionable thing on a game to game basis, yeah?

Something the GM can decide to turn on/off to suit their preferred level of player data obfuscation?
jase
admin, 3870 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 04:36

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to liblarva (msg # 671):

GMs can always see full cast/player details including last post time (players only see date), last visited date and time, plus groups.


In reply to nauthiz (msg # 676):

Definitely not.  That would give the GM the ability to dictate anonymity for players, which is one of the core principles of RPoL.
Skald
moderator, 1013 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 13:51
  • msg #678

Re: RPoL Design Update

Just a thought - should Last Post be on the far end for all variations on the theme (ie whether GM or Player view) ... cos that way the Last Post columns for GM, Players and NPCs on the Player view of the Cast list will all line up to my complete satisfaction.  :>
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 568 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 14:21
  • msg #679

Re: RPoL Design Update

+1 for Skald's suggestion about swapping the columns to avoid eye twitch.

The green groups on the game menus look really sharp. Any chance we could get the same treatment for the authors of PMs?
Xenoviel
subscriber, 38 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 16:52
  • msg #680

Re: RPoL Design Update

It kinda feels like there's no way to meaningful way to present "last logon date" to the other players that isn't either a) potentially harmful (in the case of stalking), b) completely meaningless (in which case, why does it exist at  all?), or c) harmful to anonymity.

Honestly, I feel like it ought to just be removed entirely for players. Either the information is irrelevant to them or it can be easily abused. Just take it out.
Xenoviel
subscriber, 39 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 17:29
  • msg #681

Re: RPoL Design Update

Also, I'm having a strange issue with the custom theme feature. If I click to edit the theme, change nothing, and tell it to save, I get the following error:

Cannot continue, error(s) in the template or submitted form.

Don't know what to do with rgba line " background: rgba(66,46,44,0.9); /* $help background */ ".
Don't know what to do with rgba line " border-bottom-color: rgba(50,50,50,0.25); /* $overall information boxes, underline on headings (and row lines within pseudo-tables) */ ".

locojedi
member, 239 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 17:34
  • msg #682

Re: RPoL Design Update

I like the last login for myself, as a player, to see how long it's been since a GM has logged in, and that gives me a good idea if he's ghosted. Won't solve the problem of GMs going AWOL, but it does let me know as a player that the game is on unannounced indefinite hiatus... or that it's done.

My dos pesos on the matter.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 569 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 17:41
  • msg #683

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to locojedi (msg # 682):

Last Logon for the GM is still showing to players, for precisely that reason.

In reply to Xenoviel (msg # 681):

Scroll down and check to be sure you don't have any red things in the list. If you do, you need to put a value in for them.
Skald
moderator, 1014 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 29 Nov 2023
at 23:33
  • msg #684

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Xenoviel (msg # 681):

Custom Themes now have a LOT more entries, so it loads what it can from your existing saved theme and highlights the blanks.  When you try to save, it will report errors if there's any fields not completed -> look for any labels coloured in red alongside an empty field (you'll probably have to work your way through carefully to find them all).  The price of enhanced customisation !  <grrins>
Xenoviel
subscriber, 40 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Thu 30 Nov 2023
at 00:12
  • msg #685

Re: RPoL Design Update

Thanks folks! I found them all and got that sorted.
drew0500
member, 256 posts
D&D Gamer
Eclipse Classless
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 08:35
  • msg #686

Re: RPoL Design Update

The new responsive removes special characters such as quotes and apostrophes - they just display as blank spots.

And I can't be concise with some quote snippets because I get this message "Error!
Please, don't quote so much text for such a short reply. Trim the quote or use the reply link."

I was going to display proof but alas the forum is blocking it all.

Good luck!
JohnB
supporter, 2130 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 09:26
  • msg #687

Re: RPoL Design Update

drew0500:
And I can't be concise with some quote snippets because I get this message "Error!
Please, don't quote so much text for such a short reply. Trim the quote or use the reply link."


I found that irritating as well.  Sometimes it is relevant to quote a whole paragraph of a multi  paragraph post (some players are very verbose)   that might only need a few words in response.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:31, Fri 01 Dec 2023.
Skald
moderator, 1016 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 11:47

Re: RPoL Design Update

drew0500:
The new responsive removes special characters such as quotes and apostrophes - they just display as blank spots.

This seems to be occurring when viewing "curly" quotes either double quotes or single quotes which are the same as apostrophe) which are special characters (as opposed to straight quotes) in Responsive where the original message was posted on the old site.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 572 posts
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 12:14
  • msg #689

Re: RPoL Design Update

@drew0500 and JohnB -

For what it's worth with the 'quote so much text for such a short reply' error, you don't have to add /much/ to get it to not error. I've had that pop up more than once, and it usually doesn't take adding more than a few words to get the error to go away.

Unless something's changing and it's popping up now for longer replies, I suppose. I've not seen it register for anything longer than a super-concise (think fewer than 10 words) single sentence, but it's also been a while since the last time I saw it.
Egleris
member, 201 posts
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 13:18
  • msg #690

Re: RPoL Design Update


So, I was suggested to post this here (I originally made my post about it on the Community Chat thread that is discussing the changeover - why are there two threads for the same thing?), so I'm doing it.

Essentially, it appears that it's no longer possible, in the responsive site, to delete a character description - the site demand that something (at the very least a blank space) be included into the text box once it is opened. This is something that the old site allowed, and I have reason to prefer this ability to completely delete a character description, which removes the ability of players to clink on the linked character's name in the cast list and see its avatar; as a GM, it is useful to me, and while yes, I could work around the issue by, as said, leaving the character description empty and leaving the NPC without an avatar for the players to see, that seems needlessly convoluted when just deleting the description was possible before.

Is there any particular reason why that feature was removed from the site? It seems like a weird loss of functionality to have.
bigbadron
moderator, 16206 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 13:32

Re: RPoL Design Update

Egleris:
why are there two threads for the same thing?
You would have to ask the user who created the other thread why he started a new one, when this official one (started by jase) already existed.

Actually, I just checked, and deleting the character description on the old site apparently leaves the character clickable from the cast list, just the way it does on the responsive site.  If you delete the description and the portrait on the old site, the name on the cast list still works as a link to the (completely empty) character description.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:36, Fri 01 Dec 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 573 posts
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 14:03
  • msg #692

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Egleris (msg # 690):

If you want the character to be completely unviewable to players, Egleris, you can set its tag as 'Hidden'.
JohnB
supporter, 2131 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 14:06
  • msg #693

Re: RPoL Design Update

SunRuanEr:
... I've not seen it register for anything longer than a super-concise (think fewer than 10 words) single sentence, but it's also been a while since the last time I saw it. ...


This illustrates my case well.


NOTE:  SunRuanEr tends to write fully and somewhat verbose prose - and you need to quote all of it for it to make any sense.  I can, and often do, write more concisely than that :)   But clearly not, in this case.
Xenoviel
subscriber, 41 posts
AlloyedClavicle
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 16:41
  • msg #694

Re: RPoL Design Update

I agree that, for the sake of in-character purposes, it's important to not simply quote someone else's post, but to add a reasonable amount of text to the reply to that quote, and that quote should probably be used sparingly IC in games. However, the site is still - at least functionally - a forum - and the quote function is something where a user may need to quote a modest paragraph and only write a sentence or three in reply in OOC spaces. The current coding of the quote feature here on the responsive site did not allow me to do this. There was no real guidance on how much 'more' I needed to add to make it a legal post and I found that a mix of confusing and frustrating. Especially because the functionality was significantly different from how it used to be on the original site.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 575 posts
Fri 1 Dec 2023
at 17:22
  • msg #695

Re: RPoL Design Update

I concede, after some testing, that the quote error is coming up for MUCH longer responses than it did when I last saw it.

A bit of dinking around quoting Xenoviel's post there revealed that the error was coming up for anything less than fully half of what was being quoted (eyeballed based on lines of the quote - I didn't count words, that'd be crazy!). That's definitely way too much text to require, so it feels busted. (I don't have the time to mess around and see if it's requiring half+1 for ANY quote, regardless of size, or if it's just a set minimum that's really high.)

The last time I saw it come up before this discussion (a few weeks ago, maybe as long as a month but definitely less than two) it was popping up for a single response of something akin to 'My thoughts exactly', for a quote that was probably about the same length as Xenoviel's post. It's definitely triggering on what seem to be 'normal' posts, now.
jase
admin, 3871 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 04:21
  • msg #696

Re: RPoL Design Update

  • Removed HTML "required" from character sheets, descriptions plus scratchpad (so now they can be saved empty).   Saving an empty file of the latter two will remove the file completely (doesn't for sheets due to additional information within them), importantly for descriptions that will mean players don't get links to empty descriptions.
  • Nothing has been changed (either recently in in the past several years) as to quotation vs text ratio.  Happy to discuss separately but this is not a discussion regarding the new site design so please don't clutter.
  • Line compression (on character sheets?) - need a lot more information.  What wide content used to do was make the sheet text tiny or zoom out the entire page (making all text tiny), at which point you'd be forced to zoom in to be able to read anything, and then scroll left/right to read.  Now we don't allow the content to mess with the overall page and also force the content to maintain its text size and instead force scrolling left/right.  Basically, from my tests, we skip the part where you have to zoom.  Possibly I missed some spots to enforce this, let me know if I have or there's another issue.
  • Moved "Last Post" in the cast list to the right most column.
  • Fixed colouring/wrong address for the up/down arrows, also (hopefully) made it more consistent across screens.
  • You can now select the old site backgrounds for your custom themes.

SunRuanEr
subscriber, 577 posts
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 04:40
  • msg #697

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Line compression (on character sheets?) - need a lot more information.  What wide content used to do was make the sheet text tiny or zoom out the entire page (making all text tiny), at which point you'd be forced to zoom in to be able to read anything, and then scroll left/right to read.  Now we don't allow the content to mess with the overall page and also force the content to maintain its text size and instead force scrolling left/right.  Basically, from my tests, we skip the part where you have to zoom.  Possibly I missed some spots to enforce this, let me know if I have or there's another issue.

Not sure if this qualifies as "another issue" from that or if it's something wonky on my end specifically, but I'm seeing images in character sheets out of position, now.

I've got several character sheets with images forced to the upper or lower right-hand corner of the sheet, and now they're displaying at the right-hand side of my base (not scrolled anywhere) phone screen, with the text running over (and well past) them all the way to the right. Prior to today, they were displaying with the text over them, but aligned to the right-hand side even with the right-hand limit of the text portion of the sheet. (Ie, no portion of the text went past the images on the right-hand side.)

Now their right-hand edge is more aligned with the middle of the character sheet, with all the scrolled portion past them. (Everything looks as it should on desktop. It's only wonky on the phone.)

quote:
Fixed colouring/wrong address for the up/down arrows, also (hopefully) made it more consistent across screens.

In threads (public or PM), I'm seeing three sets of Up/Down arrows: Top of the sidebar, bottom of the sidebar, and bottom of the page. (The bottom two are practically on top of one another in game threads with a longer set of sidebar options.)

All other pages, I'm only seeing two sets of Up/Down arrows: Top of the sidebar, and bottom of the sidebar.

Edit: And it appears that I have no Up/Down arrows at all on my mobile, except when inside a thread and the bottom one shows.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:27, Sat 02 Dec 2023.
1492
member, 150 posts
I like monkeys
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 04:53
  • msg #698

Re: RPoL Design Update

SIAP, but one thing that seems easily done and would be an improvement over the old site, would be using a clipboard function for quotes. At present, if you hit the quote button, it goes straight to post. Half the time I am quoting something from the game thread for the purpose of commenting in a separate OOC thread. Clipboard would make this far easier, and I know it's simple, from a programming standpoint, to set up that way.

On a related note, it would also be nice to be able to quote a small portion of text by selecting it prior to hitting the quote button. Rather than having to hit quote, then delete all the extraneous text after the fact.

$0.02, and all that.
gowkaiser96
supporter, 18 posts
Penetrate Section Z
Destroy L Brain
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:11
  • msg #699

Re: RPoL Design Update

Xenoviel:
I agree that, for the sake of in-character purposes, it's important to not simply quote someone else's post, but to add a reasonable amount of text to the reply to that quote, and that quote should probably be used sparingly IC in games. However, the site is still - at least functionally - a forum - and the quote function is something where a user may need to quote a modest paragraph and only write a sentence or three in reply in OOC spaces. The current coding of the quote feature here on the responsive site did not allow me to do this. There was no real guidance on how much 'more' I needed to add to make it a legal post and I found that a mix of confusing and frustrating. Especially because the functionality was significantly different from how it used to be on the original site.


The need for generous quote assistance reminds me. I have played with people who get confused which is the Sorcerer and which is the talking parrot familiar even when I used different fonts and text colors for them, until I started adding cartoon bird sounds to their speech pattern. When otherwise very good roleplayers who helping run games RL where they live. Even if I wasn't using quotes to solve that, some people do need the help once the text starts piling up.

If there are only one or two people on the scene, quotes are probably a bit much. In "Everyone but you is playing two-three characters. Guest starring NPCs" land however, I am much more sympathetic to people using quotes. And talk that it "Does not belong in character" makes my aging wrists hurt thinking of every time someone shouts that functional maps ruin their immersion and everything should be hand written on grid paper.

I can also agree with the recent above post that modern partial quoting has spoiled me, even if I am also used to gutting a bit quote by hand.
Skald
moderator, 1017 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:14
  • msg #700

Re: RPoL Design Update

As jase said, any changes to functionality need to be discussed separately - this thread is for us to raise any issues with the Responsive conversion (aka rewrite of the code) in the rapidly closing window to full release.  Looking at actual errors or problems arising from the design itself that need to be looked at.

So if anyone would like to add a new feature or a change to an existing feature, just create a new thread for each instance, state your case and let the discussion/voting commence.  :>
1492
member, 151 posts
I like monkeys
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:17
  • msg #701

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 700):

You really want a whole new thread for a single suggestion?
Skald
moderator, 1018 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:32
  • msg #702

Re: RPoL Design Update

Well ... yes.  :>

1) If you lump all the suggestions in one thread it soon gets out of hand - people are replying across one another and earlier posts get lost/ignored in favour of the latest ones
2) Not everyone uses all the functionality of the site - with a separate thread for each suggestion they can just go into the ones that interest them/impact on them
3) If the idea gets up, then the thread for that suggestion can be closed off nice and neatly.
EDIT (thought of another important reason  :>  ) 4) with one suggestion per thread, the new post flag relates to just that suggestion - if you've got one thread with all the suggestions in, the new post could relate to any of them
This message was last edited by the user at 05:35, Sat 02 Dec 2023.
1492
member, 152 posts
I like monkeys
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:36
  • msg #703

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 702):

Roger that. Makes sense. Thanks.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:41, Sat 02 Dec 2023.
patchwolf
member, 67 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:45
  • msg #704

Re: RPoL Design Update

Supporting Skald's position here.  It's a fairly common software development trait.  Everything new topic -- every feature, every bug report -- gets its own discrete place for it to be discussed.  It makes it easy to track, to follow, to close when they're done.  Topics of interest will naturally float to the top, which gives you the beginnings of a built-in prioritisation scheme, etc..
1492
member, 154 posts
I like monkeys
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 05:46
  • msg #705

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to patchwolf (msg # 704):

Roger that. Makes sense. Thanks.
jase
admin, 3872 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 10:03
  • msg #706

Re: RPoL Design Update

Have relocated the up/down arrows.  Couldn't shove them where I had them before as it was causing issue.  Navbar seemed a logical location for larger screens, mobiles have it in the header section (to start) and then it'll scroll down with the content until it sticks just below the horizontal menus.  It's not ideal on mobiles but I can't think of a better location w/ the limitations we've got (i.e. what internet-land allows).


In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 697):

You'll have to (privately) link the sheets.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 582 posts
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 14:38
  • msg #707

Re: RPoL Design Update

The arrows look good, and I do like that they're showing on everything now. Or at least every page type that I thought to check just now in my uncaffeinated state.

jase:
You'll have to (privately) link the sheets.

Character sheet links rMailed!
theseeker
member, 45 posts
Sat 2 Dec 2023
at 15:48
  • msg #708

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
Have relocated the up/down arrows.  Couldn't shove …

Could you add a little spacer to the right of the arrows? On my desktop screen it is difficult to click the down arrows. My web browser insists on popping open the scroll bar over top the arrow when the mouse gets close. I've got maybe a tenth of the width of the arrow to click on.
JackDTodd
member, 4 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 02:51
  • msg #709

Re: RPoL Design Update

Minor Glitch w/ Responsive Site.

I’ve noticed over the last 3-4 days:

On my Home Page, I will get a Notice (Red text) of a new public post in one or more of the games I am in.  But.  There are actually no new public posts in the game despite the Red text notification.

Some global setting has evidently been changed that causes the system to think that a new post has been made in a game when in fact it has not happened.

Don’t know if it’s triggered by GM logging on or if a flag is getting reset to indicate that a previously-read post has not been read.

When you go into the game that is flagged red for a new post, none of the threads in the game have the symbol indicating which thread has the new post. And this is confirmed by opening each thread and checking. So. The lack of a new post notice flag is correct IN the Game Menu, just flagged wrong on the Home page.

Just FYI.

Like I said - this has been happening randomly over just the past couple of days since I started trying out the Responsive site (and it’s never done that before in the old interface and doesn’t seem to be doing that when I am using the old interface).
patchwolf
member, 71 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 02:54
  • msg #710

Re: RPoL Design Update

The responsive site uses different cookies.  if you stay in the responsive site, your "new" notifications (red, blue, and purple) should be stable.  If you go back and forth, they will screw each other up.
JackDTodd
member, 6 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 03:09
  • msg #711

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ah! THANKS! That makes sense - if it’s just a cookie issue.

I use browser in “Private” mode, which limits cookies. Never had an issue on the old platform, but happening off and on with the Responsive site.

Will try a different browser or login on the non-private browser with all cookies accepted. Thx!
tmagann
member, 918 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 03:11
  • msg #712

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've been on the Responsive site for several days without going back tot he old site, and it's still happening to me. Several times today alone. All in the same game, but then, that's the only one that has multiple groups that only some are int...as far as I know, anyhow.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 584 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 03:57
  • msg #713

Re: RPoL Design Update

It might be a cookie issue, but it also might be that the GM is doing something behind the scenes.

I flagged it for attention a few years back, but no one could ever figure out what was making it happen at the time, but on responsive right now when GMs manipulate something with regards to characters (their Group Access, what Player controls them, that sort of thing) it's flagging games as having new messages.

I know that's still happening as recently as this past Tuesday (confirmed by a player mentioning it directly, after a few PCs' groups had been adjusted).
JackDTodd
member, 10 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 04:05
  • msg #714

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yes!

The GM in the game that keeps flagging as having a new public post has been updating Character Sheets (to update XP) and adding info to the Game Wiki, and THAT DOES trigger a new public post notification - without having a corresponding flag to show where the change in the game has happened - and without there being a new post in any of the threads listed in the game menu.

So. The system is detecting *some* kind of update, which flags the game red, but then doesn’t have anywhere to put the flag inside the game menu.
jase
admin, 3875 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 07:34
  • msg #715

Re: RPoL Design Update

I've seen it too but I assumed it has due to all the messing around I do in different browsers and sites.  I'll keep a closer eye on it and see if I can track down any issues.  I do recall correcting a blatantly incorrect calculation but nothing else, so theoretically it should have improved.

Responsive does share cookies with the normal site so shouldn't be due to sharing those.  Wiki doesn't update the game status at all so definitely not related to that.
JackDTodd
member, 12 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 10:01
  • msg #716

Re: RPoL Design Update

It would appear to be something related to GM interaction (most likely). If not Wiki related, then updating Character Sheets seems to be the most likely culprit.

I’ve switched browser setting (private to public), so I’ll see if that has an impact.

Unfortunately, the GM has finished a flurry of updating Character Sheets for the moment (it’s only a periodic activity - a few days every 4/6 weeks when XP is updated) so I’m unlikely to see the issue with much frequency now, if that is the sole cause of falsely triggering the update/new post flag.

But since a few others on the site are seeing an similar issue, a pattern may develop. But, fwiw, it does seem to occur solely within the Responsive site and not in the old interface and not due to switching between the two.
jase
admin, 3876 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 10:35

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to JackDTodd (msg # 716):

Character sheets doesn't trigger anything either.  It's only messages/threads.
Skald
moderator, 1026 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 13:27
  • msg #718

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase - had a look into unlikely triggers for new posts a while back, and was wondering if there's any way whereby an update to a post for a group that a user ISN'T in but which contains a private line to a group eg language that the user IS in could be the cause ?  Oh yes, it's a real long shot and undoubtedly barmy.  :>
jase
admin, 3877 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 14:59
  • msg #719

Re: RPoL Design Update

Hmm, no.  We don't go that deep.

It used to be that if a message was posted (or bumped etc) then we'd update the game "lastpost" record and then just do a comparison for each user.  Which is why we used to have issues with people seeing posts for groups they're not a part of.  Very simple and easy but failed for groups.

Now we actually go too far, in a way.  Whenever a thread update is triggered (deleting a thread, moving a threat to another group, posting, deleting the last post, bumping... or even changing groups a character is a member of) we trigger an entire routine.

This routine loops through every thread and every character, figuring out which is the most recent thread for each player.  It then updates the "stickylist" (your list of games) with the most recent "lastpost" for each player.

It's overly thorough.  Theoretically I should just do it for the edited thread/characters/players but that was going to require too many tricky logical checks so I opted for a simple loop as that would be the most robust and error proof.

But speaking of, actually I did just notice one small issue that could cause a problem if.. let's see if I can get this right.. if you changed a character's group and the new groups had access to a more recent thread than the player had previously read and they were currently all caught up on posts.  Easy fix, the routine is right but it's working on the information pulled from the databases before a GM did group manipulation, so will need to fix that.

Not sure if that could possibly be the issue, seems pretty fringe but I won't complain if the fix is as simple as that.
jase
admin, 3878 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 15:37
  • msg #720

Re: RPoL Design Update

Actually I was far cleverer than I remember and had already taken group adjustments into consideration.  Editing players/characters via the various GM screen were all taken into consideration and the group memberships were adjusted beforehand.  I've put a forced group revalidation into the entire routine, just in case there's some fringe scenario I haven't thought if (and also didn't prior).  Will continue to monitor.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 585 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 17:54
  • msg #721

Re: RPoL Design Update

If it makes any difference, the instance that I saw on Tuesday was a case of the GM giving Group 0 to two NPCs that had previously had no groups at all, so that one of the NPCs could send a PM to the other NPC. (Apparently you can no longer have characters that don't have Groups, which is good, but they were old NPCs. Also you can't send a PM to any character that the sending character doesn't have at least one Group in common with - WAI?)

Whether it was the Group access adjustment or the PM sending that triggered red for the game that day, I don't know. (PMs don't -seem- to ever trigger red in other games as far as I can tell, so I suspect it was the Group.) But one of the players asked the GM later that day 'Hey, are you doing something with <Game>, because it flagged red?' and several of the other players all logged in that day as well (the game's been on an extended break), but not all of them. So some of them seem to have also seen red, but I can't verify it.

So...

One of the other players and the GM and I just did some testing, manipulating Group access on NPCs (adding some unused Groups to them, removing them, trying with GMNPCs and player-controlled NPCs), to see what was flagging new message notifications. (This is all on Responsive)

...and I think I know at least part of what's triggering it.

Adjusting Groups is making games pop red with new message indicators for players that have REMOVED the game from their dashboard sticky list. The other player and I confirmed that the indicator would NOT pop if the game was still on our dash, but would pop (and force the game back up) if we removed it, from something as simple as the GM removing a single /unused/ Group access from a GM-controlled NPC.

Not sure if this is in anyway helpful or not, but it seems to be the difference in why/why not Group manipulation by the GM is triggering red. It's not actually triggering JUST the red, it's full-on repopulating the game to someone who's removed it.
This message was last edited by the user at 17:55, Sun 03 Dec 2023.
JackDTodd
member, 14 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 18:17
  • msg #722

Re: RPoL Design Update

The red notices I’m getting are for an active game that is on my Home page. It flags red even though no new posts are posted on any thread in the game menu.
tmagann
member, 919 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 19:06
  • msg #723

Re: RPoL Design Update

The same, only I'd say that there were no new posts on any thread that I had access to. I have two characters int hat game with slightly different access, but there are several threads that neither can access. Presumably one of the latter had the new posts.
JohnB
supporter, 2134 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 20:30
  • msg #724

Re: RPoL Design Update

@Jase

Would you like me to start a test game, that we can invite all of these guys to play in -  maybe set up a couple of extra GMs and as many groups and NPCs as we can.  Then we can run a proper testing schedule, and keep trying things until we break them.  Happy to be told what schedule to test to.
JackDTodd
member, 15 posts
Sun 3 Dec 2023
at 21:33
  • msg #725

Re: RPoL Design Update

Update: in the same game I’ve been referring to, the game flagged red on the home page, but no threads showed up as having a new post.

After reviewing the threads, lo and behold! A brand new thread was created by the GM, but NO FLAG appeared next to it in the game menu! No player had posted to it yet - not sure any player had seen it. I added a new post to it, which should now trigger a flag for everyone else in the game…
jase
admin, 3880 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 4 Dec 2023
at 04:02
  • msg #726

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 721):

Any thread/character manipulation will push a game back onto the user's list.  That's always been the case and not new.  If a user doesn't want a game to reappear then they need to leave the game entirely otherwise it'll randomly pop back up and it will always have new messages when it does.


In reply to JackDTodd (msg # 722 and # 725):

Ah that's new information, thanks.


In reply to JohnB (msg # 724):

That's what beta is for, so by all means.. but I'm also locally messing with some things to see if I can figure it.  I have "fun" adding myself to games and wotnot.
jase
admin, 3882 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 4 Dec 2023
at 05:37
  • msg #727

Re: RPoL Design Update

Ok found fringe scenario that could trigger an indicator on the main menu but nothing inside the game.
  • A thread, that the player does not have access to, exists in the game and is newer than the most recent thread the player can see.
  • Player visits the game and catches up on all threads (either by reading them all or clicking "mark all as read").
  • GM edits the thread and puts it in a group that the player does have access to.

Basically the system would know there's a new post for the player on the front screen because... well.. there is... but when you go into the game it would go "hang on, you've visited after this message was posted and caught up on everything so it's not new".

Now it won't care about when you last visited but what the newest message was when you last visited.  Subtle but important difference.  Have pushed out the update, see how you go.
JohnB
supporter, 2136 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 4 Dec 2023
at 08:55
  • msg #728

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
In reply to JohnB (msg # 724):

That's what beta is for, so by all means.. but I'm also locally messing with some things to see if I can figure it.  I have "fun" adding myself to games and wotnot.


*grin*  yep, I still remember the fun of that sort of testing  :)  I also know that 'too many cooks spoil the broth'   but that sometimes external input can be important.  But I wouldn't do it without asking, I have too much respect for the work you have done over the years.




To business then.  I'll set up a couple of testing games.  One for fiddling with, and another for reporting back.  While we are playing with flags, we need to reports in a different game, as 'report' posts in the test game will affect the flagging system.  It also allows us to tailor some of the tests better.
JohnB
supporter, 2137 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 4 Dec 2023
at 09:09
  • msg #729

Re: RPoL Design Update

If you want to help with some structured testing of issues -  staring off with flag colour changes, join these games  :)

We can agree a program of test between us, and work through them in a 'clean' environment.


link to another game

link to another game
This message was lightly edited by the user at 16:35, Tue 05 Dec 2023.
zagygthemad
member, 188 posts
Mon 4 Dec 2023
at 13:52
  • msg #730

Re: RPoL Design Update

Under the 'Cast' button in games, can we get 'Groups' added back so we can tell which PC in a game is in which group in that game?
Skald
moderator, 1027 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 4 Dec 2023
at 14:15
  • msg #731

Re: RPoL Design Update

Groups were removed from player view per earlier discussions (starting somewhere around msg #431 in this thread).  GMs can still see a player's groups either by hovering to get the expanded view OR en masse by navigating to GM Menu | Edit Groups.

Discussion around that should go to a new thread at this point in time as we near release - looking for things that might be causing errors so they can get resolved before the jump to hyperspace.  :>
JohnB
supporter, 2138 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Tue 5 Dec 2023
at 16:36
  • msg #732

Re: RPoL Design Update

We could do with some more  help with some structured testing of issues -  starting off with flag colour changes, join these games  :)

We can't do much with just two of us.


link to another game

link to another game
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 586 posts
Tue 5 Dec 2023
at 19:09
  • msg #733

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 726):

Good to know, thanks. The last time that was brought up a few years ago, no one mentioned it being WAI. Sorry for bringing it up again!
JohnB
supporter, 2139 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Tue 5 Dec 2023
at 22:55
  • msg #734

Re: RPoL Design Update

While we have managed to create a single false flag, it happened when I changed a number of things at once.  We have been going through the elements one by one, but have not been able to recreate the false flag yet.

However, I have noticed that the front page count for total number of Posts on RPol appears to be static on the responsive interface.  I can only see it on a desktop  (win10, Firefox and Edge), and can't see the count on my mobile at all.  Using the old interface (win10, Firefox and Edge) the count is dynamic and changes on a refresh.

I'm not sure that is relevant, and is probably a minor change in the way the interface collects and presents data.  However, I thought I would report it, just in case it is indicative of a difference in the way post counts are handled.
jase
admin, 3884 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 6 Dec 2023
at 01:09

Re: RPoL Design Update

I did make two small changes yesterday as well as a bugfix (yesterday and a few days ago).

First change yesterday was around how games track their most recent post.  Previously it was any post would update the games post recent post, however that information is only used for "informal lurkers" (i.e. those who haven't been added to the game in any capacity).  Players and lurkers use their own data from their stickylist which is updated according to the groups they have access to.  Anyway I changed the game's "last post" to only get updated for group 0, public and archive threads.  Pretty sure I'd intended it that way but hadn't enacted it.  Basically games will stop advertising "last post 11:00 am today" if that was to group 1-Z.

Second change was when using mark all as read (this was the fix done on Monday).  Previously it used to use the current date as the indicator to what you've read up until, the thing is there could be a thread you don't access to that's newer than the last thread you can currently see, but you've effectively said you've read it.  If the GM then goes and changes the thread group or your groups then the thread could appear at the top of your list.. but you've indicated you've read it.  You'll get a notification on the main menu 'cos that routine is separate but prior use of "mark all as read" means there's no thread with a new message indicator when you go in there.  Now "mark all as read" updates your "last read" date to be "date of the newest message I can currently see".

First bugfix relates to #1 in a small way.  When updating your stickylist it could erroneously clear out your "last message I've read" data, meaning it resorts to the data in #1 (which then was looking at the most recent post in the entire game, though now it'll be the most recent publicly visible post).  Fixed that issue so it won't happen again.

Second bugfix was for private messages, don't think it's relevant so I'll avoid making this even longer.

TLDR... uh... games will stop advertising threads you can't see and existing threads you're given access to will now appear as unread.

Yeah, tracking messages is complicated.

Total posts is cached on the main menu.  In database terms it uses a "full table scan" to get the data so it's only updated every ~hour.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:25, Thu 07 Dec 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 587 posts
Wed 6 Dec 2023
at 02:05
  • msg #736

Re: RPoL Design Update

jase:
First change yesterday was around how games track their most recent post.  Previously it was any post would update the games post recent post, however that information is only used for "informal lurkers" (i.e. those who haven't been added to the game in any capacity).  Players and lurkers use their own data from their stickylist which is updated according to the groups they have access to.  Anyway I changed the game's "last post" to only get updated for group 0, public and archive threads.  Pretty sure I'd intended it that way but hadn't enacted it.  Basically games will stop advertising "last post 11:00 am today" if that was to group 1-Z.


One question, jase.

How will that affect games, particularly Adult games that shouldn't be posting in Group 0, when it comes to displaying their activity for when they're listed in the GM's list (when advertising games), or when it comes to tracking whether or not a game will get relegated to the cleaning bin for inactivity?
jase
admin, 3885 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 6 Dec 2023
at 09:02

Re: RPoL Design Update

Fair question.. and it's going to cause a problem.  Can't think of a work-around, guess we'll have to go back to being wrong about the last (visible) post.  I'll just have to make sure it's not ever used for people with the game in their stickylist.  Thanks for thinking of that issue!
jase
admin, 3886 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 6 Dec 2023
at 10:46

Re: RPoL Design Update

Undid the "only publicly visible posts update the game's last post".  Thankfully all the other work I did will make this a non-issue for the most.

The only time it should be used is when you don't lurk in a game in any way shape or form.  So searches, wanted forums, places like that.  As soon as its on your stickykist it'll use the data from that.
Egleris
member, 202 posts
Wed 6 Dec 2023
at 20:36
  • msg #739

Re: RPoL Design Update


So, this took me a bit to notice because, in the writing box, the text is using the same character style as before (Times New Roman, I believe? Whatever the most standard one is, anyway), but once the post is put up, it changes to a different character style. Is there a way to change this, in some menu that I've missed somewhere? I imagine there's a reason why the default was changed, but if there was a way to change it for myself only, that'd be great - I found the new style harder to read, it's too thin and certain letters like I and J are difficult to distinguish from the rest.
Skald
moderator, 1028 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 03:10
  • msg #740

Re: RPoL Design Update

The message compose box uses a proportional font (looks like Courier New to me) where each character takes up the same amount of space. That makes it easy for users to get things to line up where they are a) drawing maps using keyboard characters or b) laying the text out in a column format (eg for a character sheet), without resorting to table formatting.

To maintain the proportional font when it's posted to the thread, you just wrap it in the pre or tt tags (highlight the text and click on the relevant setting in the Quick formatting options).

However, there should be a setting in your browser to override the website fonts.  In Firefox go to Tools | Settings | Fonts ... click on Advanced and you'll see a list of the fonts used, though you'll need to uncheck the 'Allow pages to choose their own fonts option'.  Actually looking at my settings, they seem to match what I see on screen, so it's possible that RPOL is using my settings anyway.  But don't quote me.  ;>
Anile78
member, 1 post
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 10:55
  • msg #741

New site design

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 4):

I had reservations initially, fearing a shift in navigation akin to vBulletin or E forums, making topic exploration cumbersome. Thankfully, you maintained the user-friendly structure, allowing easy access to discussions. No objections here; in fact, I appreciate the intuitive design.
drew0500
member, 258 posts
D&D Gamer
Eclipse Classless
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 11:32
  • msg #742

New site design

This is mainly a cosmetic and consistency issue.

Top menu has 'Home' which resolves to the main landing page - I see it as a light grey with a darker grey shading. Bottom right corner has 'Main' which resolves to the same landing page but it's using a red font and isn't in the same shading style box. Furthermore, it only appears when you reach the bottom of the current page which makes it a bit jarring and unintuitive (Home vs. Main). Any reason it can't be added to the right side bar where the rest of the similar options are located and use the same word (Home or Main)?
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 588 posts
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 12:21
  • msg #743

New site design

The colors between the two are based on how you have your theme settings set up. If you want to have the links appear as the same color, you can do that - just don't ask me offhand which setting does that!

I actually find the bottom 'main' link to be quite useful on mobile, and wouldn't want to see it go away. Getting into any of the sidebar options on mobile is more of a PITA than just ticking the bottom link (and the upper link off the main menu, I tend to fat-finger into the wiki page, and I hate that...). I'm not sure how much value adding it to the sidebar would really provide, either, especially since jase recently tethered the nav bar to stay at the top of the page all the time now (so you don't need to wait/scroll to the bottom of the page to get to that Main link - it's always right there at the top.)

Changing the bottom link to say 'Home' seems legit, though, in case anyone's confused by the two different terms. (On mobile, the top nav bar changes to read 'Main Menu' and has a link in it for 'Home', so 'Home' seems like it should be the word of choice if we're picking one.)
jase
admin, 3888 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 12:59

New site design

Changed the "Main" to "Home".  I think it was to avoid confusion with the game "home" screen but I think home should be ubiquitous enough.

No idea where we'd add one to the side bar though, doesn't fit anywhere.

Also reordered the legend on the front screen as per a suggestion elsewhere, forgot to not down where and I'm far too lazy to hunt.

Plain text inputs always use a fixed-width font (unless you tell it otherwise, which I haven't), haven't changed anything there.  Intention is to improve the whole compose experience once responsive is out.
Skald
moderator, 1029 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 13:54
  • msg #745

New site design

To set the colours for the Home menu items: in the Preferences | custom theme ... Header, footer, side/navigation bars section, you're looking at top menu, hyperlink text and footer hyperlink text settings.  :>
Skald
moderator, 1030 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 7 Dec 2023
at 13:59
  • msg #746

New site design

No, I can't really see where a Home option would fit in the side bar either.  I think you'd have to move ALL the current top bar options into the side bar as well to have it make sense, which would obviously make the sidebar longer (and depending on how many lines a user currently has on screen would probably lead to more scrolling not less).
Greymist
member, 38 posts
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 07:12
  • msg #747

New site design

drew0500:
Any reason it can't be added to the right side bar where the rest of the similar options are located and use the same word (Home or Main)?

I would second this request. If the navigation is on the right side, then all of the common links should be there.
I would add it above the other three boxes, at the very top of the column, on all page-types. You could then remove it from the top menu bar.
patchwolf
member, 77 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 07:18
  • msg #748

New site design

Greymist:
You could then remove it from the top menu bar.


Respectfully, I disagree.  On mobile, the top left is easier to find and press on than the right menu (because the button is wider, it's less prone to fat-finger-syndrome).
Greymist
member, 39 posts
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 08:08
  • msg #749

New site design

In reply to patchwolf (msg # 748):

Interesting. I rarely use my iPad to use RPOL and I never use my phone. I assumed the right-side menu 'degrades' (is there a better term?) into a menu that would cover most of a phone's screen.

Still, the Home/Main link could be moved to the right-side menu and left on the top menu.
jase
admin, 3891 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 12:23

New site design

I assume by "common links" we mean the "Your account" section, which isn't really common links.  Could cram it in there but it won't really fit, we'd need some other cunning title.

Glad to see responsive is so finely tuned that we only have these minor niggles.  (c;
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 589 posts
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 13:00
  • msg #751

New site design

I really think that moving the Home link from the bottom or top of the page would be a mistake. I can't be the only person that uses the bottom link pretty much exclusively on mobile (because the top link risks fat-fingering to the wiki for me - I'm clumsy), and since people requested the top link in this recent spate of discussion post-launch announcement, that one's being utilized as well.

Sure, you could just add another link in the sidebar somewhere, but do we really need three links to the same thing all within a small flick of the mouse from each other? Or on mobile, where you'd have to open the sidebar menu and then go down to any 'Home' link? (While being basically right next to the drop-down link off the nav bar anyway.)

...and yes, I admit that my reticence to lose the lower Home link comes from years of getting used to using it. I could adapt to something else if I had to, but I really don't want to lose something that works easily in order to add something that feels less simple.
jase
admin, 3892 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 13:26

New site design

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 751):

Never was going to remove it.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 590 posts
Fri 8 Dec 2023
at 14:59
  • msg #753

New site design

I didn't think you would, I was just responding to what feels like several suggestions to do so! Thanks for the reassurance, though. :)
Greymist
member, 40 posts
Sat 9 Dec 2023
at 01:48
  • msg #754

New site design

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 753):

I would like to see the Home/Main added to the right-side menu. Removing it from the top and/or bottom is not necessary.

Jase:
Glad to see responsive is so finely tuned that we only have these minor niggles.

I have tried to use the new site for the last few days (ironically not at the moment) and as far as functionality goes, it seems absolutely solid, no glitches or weirdness. So, kudos on coding like a boss! :-)

I do have some requests about "usability" which I will post in separate threads after the rollover takes place and I have a few weeks of use under my belt.
JohnB
supporter, 2140 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sat 9 Dec 2023
at 09:11
  • msg #755

New site design

This might have been reported previously, but ...   I  have just tried to paste some Dice Roller values into a Private message.

The PM takes the very first ] symbol that it finds as the tag closing symbol for the PM.  Even when it is paired with a different  opening [ symbol.  This leaves the rest of the message publicly visible.  In this case, it was resolved by deleting the link back to the roll.  I also tried using Code tags around the Link -  but then the PM stopped at the  ]  of the opening code tag.

Also, the Dice Roller roll links that were posted in an open part of the post, reported that they can't find the appropriate roll, and don't link anywhere.
jase
admin, 3893 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 9 Dec 2023
at 12:07

New site design

In reply to JohnB (msg # 755):

It'd been reported before but the wisdom was don't use them inside PLs.  But have popped in a quick hackery which should allow it now.

Have (should have) fixed the rolls not working properly.
JohnB
supporter, 2141 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sat 9 Dec 2023
at 14:05
  • msg #757

New site design

Thanks  :)

I normally post dice rolls in 'open' posts -  but this was a secret roll, for an action that may, or may not, have been appropriate  :)
BFink
member, 98 posts
Mon 11 Dec 2023
at 10:28
  • msg #758

New site design

When I click "Reply" or "Post a Reply" button at the bottom of a thread, I am then taken to the very bottom of the page. While it works fine for RPol Forum threads (like this one), in games I have to manually scroll up to see the top of the reply screen and select a character. Ideally, clicking Reply should take me not to the bottom, but to the top of the reply area. From the look of it, the problem only occurs for smaller screens (it happened on my 15 inch laptop screen, but not on my 27 inch PC screen). Interestingly enough, it does not happen on my mobile.
patchwolf
member, 78 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Mon 11 Dec 2023
at 15:26
  • msg #759

New site design

Can you give us some more details?
  • What browser are you using?  Firefox, Chrome, Edge, Opera?
  • What's your screen resolution?  Not the screen size (15 inches), but the resolution (1920x1080, 3840x2160, etc...).

BFink
member, 99 posts
Mon 11 Dec 2023
at 16:33
  • msg #760

New site design

Firefox, 1366x768.
jase
admin, 3894 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Tue 12 Dec 2023
at 13:12

New site design

That'll be because the private recipient section is pushing the rest off the top.  Have set the focus to now be the thread topic, it is then hidden behind the (now) static toolbar but "post as" and all the important bits should be visible.
BFink
member, 100 posts
Tue 12 Dec 2023
at 13:26
  • msg #762

New site design

Perfect, thank you jase!
_Snowdrop_
member, 10 posts
Tue 12 Dec 2023
at 16:06
  • msg #763

New site design

Hi! Two things - I did try to search and see if they were already mentioned but hope it's okay to add my voice to those already mentioning suggestions 🙏

  1. I want to second post #663 on restoring a different color to the Notice: threads if possible.
    Couldn't see an option in the custom theme settings, apologies if there is and I just missed it!
    After changing to the new layout, I often scroll past the top non-Notice threads when I go to look for them and there are no new replies (like say I recently moved from top thread 3 to top thread 1 and want to go back and check if the car that seemed to be following me was red or black or whatever), because the Notice threads blend in with the normal threads.

  2. I'm not sure it does it with tables made with the <table>/<tr>/<td/th> tags, but I've noticed that images push smart tables off the screen on mobile. I'm in a game where the character profile includes two small summary tables at the top and most of us players have a right-aligned image on the line above the table. On PC, this displays fine, but on mobile, the tables vanish and there's no way to scroll horizontally to see them.

tmagann
member, 927 posts
Thu 14 Dec 2023
at 18:31
  • msg #764

New site design

A feature I miss:

On the old site (I know, not the yard stick we're supposed to use) you could search Player's wanted by subject line or poster. Both good ways to find an old ad to bump it. That particular search feature seems to be missing, and the search by system and style plus age of posting is a lot less discerning. And isn't any help at all for ads over 2 months old.
aguy777
member, 389 posts
Join Date:
Thu, 28 Nov, 2013
Thu 14 Dec 2023
at 18:34
  • msg #765

New site design

In reply to tmagann (msg # 764):

That search feature is still there, just a bit more hidden. Under the "This Forum" box on the right side of the screen, press "Search Threads". Took me a bit to find it the first time, I won't lie.
tmagann
member, 928 posts
Thu 14 Dec 2023
at 18:36
  • msg #766

New site design

It's always int he place I don't think to look.

Thank you.
jase
admin, 3896 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 05:16

New site design

_Snowdrop_:
I'm not sure it does it with tables made with the <table>/<tr>/<td/th> tags, but I've noticed that images push smart tables off the screen on mobile. I'm in a game where the character profile includes two small summary tables at the top and most of us players have a right-aligned image on the line above the table. On PC, this displays fine, but on mobile, the tables vanish and there's no way to scroll horizontally to see them.

You've got be careful when floating images alongside text, anything that tries to force a certain width is going to cause problems once the view width narrows.  "Fixed Width, Word Wrap Off" (which is basically "<pre>" is the largest culprit (don't mix them!) but tables are going to try to force a width as well.

Previously we were allowing tables (and pre) to run rampant and force the width to be beyond the screen width, scrolling the entire page, but now we scroll the content within.  Something like this (if you're on responsive):

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
View on the old site and it'll make the entire thread spread out.

So with the "overflow" scrolling we now have the tables trying to shrink and scroll to fit into the screen width alongside the floated image.  If we take this off it'll be inclined to push the table below the image instead, but then we can uncomfortably wide content again.

I don't think with HTML/CSS limitations there's a way to achieve both.  I'll do some research but we ultimately might have to decide which behaviour is the lesser evil.
jase
admin, 3897 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 10:01

New site design

Still haven't found a way to completely resolve the issue, with the scrolling overflow what it'll actually do is shrink the content so it doesn't push over the page limits.  This includes shrinking away from the right-aligned image... and it'll shrink all the way down to 0 pixels wide.

What I've done is set a minimum width to 20 pixels.  A bit over one character wide so it's pretty darn narrow and you can still end up with a tiny table with a huge amount of left-right scrolling but generally on phones it'll be too squished small and rather than shrink below 20 pixels it'll position itself below the image.

Try it out.  Two other tweaks I did was set the compose box to be a bit smaller on mobiles so we can see a little more plus put in the green text for notices.
_Snowdrop_
member, 11 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 10:30
  • msg #769

New site design

In reply to jase (msg # 768):

Wow, quick work!

I can't speak for others, of course, and I'm not savvy enough to follow the problem/solutions put forth entirely, so all I can say is it seems to work perfectly on my phone/device now :) Thank you so much, for both the table overflow and notice colors!
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 593 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 12:25
  • msg #770

New site design

Looked through the custom theme settings and couldn't find it - is there a way to adjust the color of the 'Notice', now?

While I appreciate the ability to highlight that threads are, in fact, notices, the bright green is super jarring with my shiny custom theme. (I know it's the same color for the Group highlighting, but that's less obtrusive because the text is so small and not the first thing smacking me in the face when I pull up the page.)
This message was last edited by the user at 12:26, Fri 15 Dec 2023.
jase
admin, 3898 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 13:03

New site design

In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 770):

Nope, just put back the green colouring that was there previously.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 594 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 13:18
  • msg #772

New site design

Could we -get- a way to adjust it? :D
jase
admin, 3899 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 13:32

New site design

I'd say another entry purely for colouring notices, which I don't think need colouring in the first place, is making custom themes way too complicated and finnicky.
Skald
moderator, 1033 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 13:49
  • msg #774

New site design

I've always liked the green which gives the visual cue for Notices !  :>   And no, I don't want any more customisation in custom themes !  <grins>
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 595 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 13:53
  • msg #775

New site design

That's fair, but it is weird that we can literally color everything else, including the new message indicator colors, but -not- the Notice/Groups colors.

If anything seemed like it should have been set in stone and non-adjustable, I would've thought it would be the message indicators!

(Edit: I'm only griping because I've had years to get used to NOT having bright-friggin-green slapping me in the face at the top of every page and clashing horribly with my theme. I'll obviously get over it, but I had to try.)
This message was last edited by the user at 13:55, Fri 15 Dec 2023.
_Snowdrop_
member, 12 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 13:58
  • msg #776

New site design

With fear of sounding cheeky/ungrateful, how many votes to the contrary would you need to consider SunRuanEr's request?

I'm happy so long as they're easy to tell apart, but I must admit I would appreciate the option to change it to match themes too if it's not a huge hassle to add :)

From a user's standpoint, I don't think one more setting would change anything complexity-wise. People who don't want to change it can simply leave it be, so I'd say it's more a question of whether there are enough users who would appreciate it to warrant spending time on it.

Of course, if it's tricky on the programming end, I'm completely fine with leaving it as is, I know it's a nice to have not need to have!
JohnB
supporter, 2142 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 15:58
  • msg #777

New site design

And I won't be using a custom theme.  Like, I suspect, the vast majority of RPoL Users  :P
Skald
moderator, 1034 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 23:40
  • msg #778

New site design

And unfortunately 'it's just one more' could apply to every single option/tweak/feature ever/to be proposed !  :P

I do use a custom theme - tweaked to resemble the default colour scheme on the old site.  I'm a traditionalist.

And since tis the season, I'm sure we're all excited that there's only 7 more sleeps till the old site gives way to Responsive !  Deck the halls and all that ... ;>
tmagann
member, 930 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2023
at 23:45
  • msg #779

New site design

Well, the excited folk are already using it, presumably, so "dreading" might be more accurate, for those of us who prefer the dinosaur lifestyle.

Now please, excuse me while I grab my cane. Those kids are in my yard again, and I need to shake it at them.
JohnB
supporter, 2143 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 08:29
  • msg #780

New site design

In reply to tmagann (msg # 779):

They are only there because I shook my stick at the earlier!
PomposLantern
member, 47 posts
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 15:22
  • msg #781

New site design

Has anyone discussed the weird formatting descrepencies between versions? I swapped over to the new because suddenly certain characters were not working, but now depending on which version I view, my posts look really messed up. It also seems like old posts in the new interface look weird and would have to be edited. I'm not seeing this issue in other ppl's posts and it's starting to drive me crazy. Can someone please explain what is going on or how to fix it?
JohnB
supporter, 2144 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 15:41
  • msg #782

New site design

Posts made from the new interface -  look OK  when viewed with  the new interface.  Posts made from the old interface, look fine when viewed in the old interface.  A post made in one interface, looks wrong if viewed in the other interface.  However, (for me)  it is only a few punctuation characters.

I guess that Jase has changed the way that the system handles some punctuation characters.  Once everyone is using the same interface again -  it won't be a problem :)
This message was last edited by the user at 15:41, Sat 16 Dec 2023.
PomposLantern
member, 48 posts
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 16:13
  • msg #783

New site design

The issue is it's only some posts. In a game I'm in, no matter the version, everyone else's posts look fine in both. Only mine seems to be messed up depending on version. Also, if I edit the post in new interface (r.rpol) in mobile and retype the same characters, it fixes it in both.

So how is this possible?
JohnB
supporter, 2145 posts
Demigod of the Stunties
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 16:17
  • msg #784

New site design

Are you a coder?  Would you understand a more detailed explanation?

The important bit is that the problem will go away once we are all using the new interface :)  In other words, it is a short term issue that we have to put up with for a little while.
nauthiz
subscriber, 789 posts
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 16:53
  • msg #785

New site design

In reply to PomposLantern (msg # 783):

There's information above in this thread regarding the issue starting in msg# 547.

Check #552 to answer your question about why editing on the responsive site fixes the issue.
PomposLantern
member, 49 posts
Sat 16 Dec 2023
at 17:55
  • msg #786

New site design

I am a web designer with coding knowledge, though I use modern site builders like wordpress so I don't have to code sites from scratch for specifically these reasons. I think I figured out what is happening to my posts and feel a little less crazy now, so thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

I often copy and paste posts from word doc programs or discord. These programs auto correct specific punctuation characters into condensed alt code. Jase mentioned alt codes might be displayed differently on different browsers, but I checked on multiple and that was not the case for me. The character set clash was specifically happening depending on which text box I published these alt codes through.

If you publish alt codes on old site without the updated html/character set, new site displays them as spaces. And if you publish alt codes on the new site, old site displays the weird characters and symbols mentioned.

So that seems to be the issue I'm experiencing. The down side is the only fix is definatly going back and manually retyping any alt codes published via the old site. :/ Either way, I appreciate the help!
This message was last edited by the user at 18:04, Sat 16 Dec 2023.
jase
admin, 3900 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 17 Dec 2023
at 02:16

New site design

Everything should work on the responsive site, old one will have issues with posts make in responsive.  This is due to the need to switch to utf8 for encoding, it's the new standard for web but it does cause issue when switching between that and the old (a Latin character set).

I hacked in a Latin to utf8 routine for responsive so anything on that should look fine, if not send me an rMail with a link and I can take a look.

Back to "notice" - I think I'll switch it back to standard colouring and put in some other emphasis.  Colouring just doesn't fit with most of the themes and I just can't be bothered customising all themes for a single instance, especially when it's already got two things indicating it is a notice.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 597 posts
Sun 17 Dec 2023
at 02:43
  • msg #788

New site design

Thanks a lot, jase! My eyes really appreciate that.

Maybe 'NOTICE:'? Or 'Notice:'? Or even '*Notice:'? Or some combination. The asterisk in particular might work for those that need that little extra visual nudge to separate Notice threads from regular threads, because it would have the effect of bumping everything slightly to the right.
donsr
member, 2980 posts
Wed 20 Dec 2023
at 16:26
  • msg #789

New site design

so? in all my games i run, i suggested  the payers go to the   responsive  site   today ( 20th). I wasn't a  fan  0f the layout? I thought the old one was perfect.

 but.. i figured  i  get used to it...i started  playing  with the preferences  and  i am using   'Dark green"..Man! what a difference. The all  balck back round make s the letters stand out. the  green is 'lush'... i went through all the colors and    all the  Dark  Colors   have the same effect. I went to my  h9ome page, it it looks 100% better  with dark backround , and whatever  colors you choose. so?  I am feeling alot  better now, I just have to get used to the GM tools  and   some of the 'tweak' parks, as where to find them.

 i tend to tell new folks to use the  customizable search engine , so i have to remember where that  is   when i post to them

  so?  In closing...'i'm all better now'
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 598 posts
Fri 22 Dec 2023
at 21:16
  • msg #790

New site design

Not sure if there have been any tweaks lately, but I got some weirdness today that I've never experienced before.

A few of my games that I had been looking at on my mobile were flagging new posts for my desktop view without actually having new posts...which isn't anything new, but what's weird today is that the new message indicator flag on my desktop view was NOT going away when I hit 'Mark All As Read' (I did this for pms as well, just to cover my bases).

Hitting 'Mark All As Read' on the mobile DID make the indicator on my desktop go away.

I know that the false flag thing is pretty common when going between devices, but this is the first time I've ever been unable to clear them by hitting 'Mark All As Read' on the device that was -showing- them.
kark2
member, 312 posts
Wed 27 Dec 2023
at 05:21
  • msg #791

Re: RPoL Design Update

Hi. Belated Merry Christmas!
I.... appreciate the new site design. Is there a way  to go back to the original one? Like an old.rpol.net?
Dunecat
member, 2 posts
Wed 27 Dec 2023
at 07:45
  • msg #792

Re: RPoL Design Update

One thing that is missing for me with the new design, is that it's not as easy to read at a glance what system new game postings are in, which I used to do all the time with the old layout.

That's probably just as simple as some sort of text formatting to make the system section of each ad stand out a bit more.
jase
admin, 3904 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Wed 27 Dec 2023
at 10:23

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to kark2 (msg # 791):

Sorry, no.  Too many features are being added to the new site that aren't compatible with the old and I'm not willing (or able!) to maintain two completely different websites.

In reply to Dunecat (msg # 792):

Admittedly I don't frequent the wanted - players forum often but it seems simple enough to me, give yourself some time to get use to the changes to the layout and then see.
Skald
moderator, 1037 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Wed 27 Dec 2023
at 12:51
  • msg #794

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Dunecat (msg # 792):

I agree ... but then I found a long time ago, while using the old site, that I'm not interested in 95% of advertised systems anyway, so you might find it easier/quicker to do what I've been doing and use the Search for Game Advertisements on game system at the top of Wanted - Players (or the Browse/Search feature on the menu - just make sure the 'only active games requesting players' checkbox is ticked).  :>
This message was last edited by the user at 12:52, Wed 27 Dec 2023.
Amyante
member, 185 posts
Nobody ever considers
the feelings of a weapon
Wed 27 Dec 2023
at 14:25
  • msg #795

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 793):

With regards to the layout, would it be possible to shift a few columns around under Preferences? I'd like for the post count to be close to the game name, but i can imagine not everyone would feel the same way. Since we can already set up a custom forum skin i'm curious if this would also be possible in the new site setup.
skychan
member, 4 posts
Wed 27 Dec 2023
at 20:04
  • msg #796

Re: RPoL Design Update

I admit for me the biggest sticky issue is just how much depth each thread now uses, where before I could see all the threads on a page on well, a page.  Now I have to scroll quite a bit to see all of them.  Is it possible to compress these somewhat?  Perhaps by changing the layout of the thread details section, by putting the notice icon in line with the closed thread icon, and then perhaps shifting the most recent post information to be on the far right in it's own column?

This would perhaps allow a full 'page' of threads to be seen at the same time.  Especially as it would eliminate the entire extra line that seems to only be there because a thread might need to have both the notice and closed thread icons.
Raksash
member, 40 posts
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 01:24
  • msg #797

Re: RPoL Design Update

Is it possible for a user to choose to go back to the old layout? All of my players hate the new version, and I can't say I blame them. It's much less user friendly and even worse for wasting screen real estate. We would love to be able to use the old version. You know, the one we've been gaming with for nearly a decade and a half.
patchwolf
member, 79 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 01:47
  • msg #798

Re: RPoL Design Update

Short answer?  No.

However, getting back the real estate is easy.
  1. Go here: https://r.rpol.net/usermodules...ile.cgi?theme=create
  2. Load your preferred theme and click Grab them (or create your own colour scheme)
  3. Scroll down until you find this line... maximum page width (1,000 to 2,000):
  4. change that value to 2,000, and save.
  5. enjoy a return to widescreen goodness.

Skald
moderator, 1038 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 04:25

Re: RPoL Design Update

TL;DR ... give it time to get used to the interface before hating it - and after that due consideration, please do offer up suggestions for improvements. If there are changes that can be made (and that will work with both mobile and desktop), we'll all benefit.

The longer version ...

The Notice and Closed icons don't take up any more space - they just extend into the existing white space that visually separates the threads.  And that white space is there to increase readability which is now the prime design consideration - the aim is to make it easier to read, not to fill the screen.  Since most people start to need reading glasses after age 40 and none of us are getting any younger, we're all going to appreciate readability sooner or later (I certainly do).

In that regard ... while I'm sure some games have a lot of notices and many, many active threads, in my experience most games I've ever played in have less than half a dozen notices and perhaps three or four active game threads at most - so while with the Responsive layout I see less threads on screen, I can still see all the active threads that I need/want to look at, so there's no practical difference (if I have to click once to see older, inactive threads, I can make that sacrifice).  I suggest that'll be the case for the majority of games, but I recognise and accept there'll be more scrolling for those few games that have a LOT of players in different groups (and yes, I'm currently in one such game).

Another fun comparison I just thought of - on my PC, Microsoft Outlook 365 inbox shows 44 messages in one screen (ie visible, without scrolling at all) whereas Gmail inbox shows only 19 ... yet I find Gmail sooo much easier to read.

To attract new players to RPoL (the alternative is a shrinking user base as none of us are getting younger, remember), then the fantastic functionality isn't enough - we need an interface that attracts them.  Google 'mobile vs desktop usage' and you'll see that mobile is now more widely used than desktop, so the interface must support both.  The old site didn't ... welcome to Responsive.

Disclaimer - I loved the old site layout.  I've been on RPoL from the start, and on the old site I knew where to find everything I needed, intuitively.  Up till yesterday I've only ever used Responsive for testing & error checking.

BUT even after only one day the new site is growing on me already.  Sure, the Cast List and other menu items are all in the 'wrong' places, but that's just a matter of me getting used to the new layout and I'm very sure that will happen quickly.  I've used Microsoft Word since its DOS days and every Windows iteration in between up to and including 365.  I really hated the Ribbon when it was introduced and desperately wanted my menus back ... until one day I realised I no longer noticed the difference.  :>
Hunter
member, 2039 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 05:08
  • msg #800

Re: RPoL Design Update

I can not figure out how to tell what groups players are in, now.    Before I could look at "The Cast" and it'd show, but I can't find anything that allows me to tell whom is in what group.
Skald
moderator, 1040 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 05:21

Re: RPoL Design Update

Groups were removed from player view per earlier discussions (starting somewhere around msg #431 in this thread).  GMs can still see a player's groups either by hovering to get the expanded view OR en masse by navigating to GM Menu | Edit Groups.
Hunter
member, 2040 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 08:59
  • msg #802

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Skald (msg # 801):

When I hover over (like it says), there's still no option for me (as a GM) to see groups.    I see: rMail, Private Msg, Description, and Profile....That's it.

And on a separate issue, it also no longer shows what time for Last Login and Last Post.
This message was last edited by the user at 09:01, Thu 28 Dec 2023.
bigbadron
moderator, 16215 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 09:15

Re: RPoL Design Update

The last log in and post times are on the right hand side, level with the character name.  If you hover over the name, the dates expand to show the actual times (at least as a GM), and the Groups appear directly under the character name (above the rMail, Private Msg, Description, and Profile).
Lluis
member, 30 posts
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 09:20
  • msg #804

Re: RPoL Design Update

bigbadron:
The last log in and post times are on the right hand side, level with the character name.

As a player at least (I'm not GMing any game), last post is seen, but last logg in column is empty in all the games I've looked at...
drew0500
member, 260 posts
D&D Gamer
Eclipse Classless
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 09:28
  • msg #805

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Lluis (msg # 804):

Last login was removed from standard player view since it could be used to determine which characters were typically controlled by a single player. The collective felt privacy was far more valued than knowing when any given individual had checked in the game.
Lluis
member, 31 posts
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 10:34
  • msg #806

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to drew0500 (msg # 805):

Thanks for the explaining.

It was useful to know who was really playing and who was likely to leave the game (and so not worth losing time trying to communicate with, mostly in games with more strategic/diplomatic component), but I understand.
Skald
moderator, 1041 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 12:08

Re: RPoL Design Update

Hunter ... I can see both groups and last post etc info in the games you GM -> you may have to do a deep refresh (CTRL+F5 should do it) to make sure your browser has loaded the latest and greatest version.  :>
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 602 posts
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 13:06
  • msg #808

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Hunter (msg # 802):

quote:
When I hover over (like it says), there's still no option for me (as a GM) to see groups.    I see: rMail, Private Msg, Description, and Profile....That's it.

At the risk of asking the stupid question...is there a gap between the character name and the information that you DO see?

If so, it's possible that the Group info line is rendering in the exact same color as the background of that block, and therefore making it look invisible. That's coincidentally also the same line that the GM timestamps show on. (I can't recall offhand if those two lines have different custom color settings, but just in case...)

Edit: The fact that you're seeing 'Profile' as an option definitely means you're seeing the GM view of the cast list, because that doesn't appear for players, so there's something afoot other than the game not thinking your clearance is correct.

Edit 2: I'm pretty sure that's it. I was just testing.

The clue was that you see 'rMail, Private Msg, Description, and Profile....That's it' because you should actually be seeing: Send: rMail | Private Msg | View: Description | Profile

The 'Send' and the 'View' come through in the same color setting that the Groups and timestamps do. That's 'Information Boxes, text' under the custom settings colors (in the Overall Site Settings section). The actual character names, and the 'rMail/Private Msg/Description/Profile' colors are 'Hyperlink in body content' in the same settings section.

I'm betting that your setting for the 'Information boxes, text' just happens to be the same color as your setting for 'Information boxes, default background'.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:49, Thu 28 Dec 2023.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 605 posts
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 15:36
  • [deleted]
  • msg #809

Re: RPoL Design Update

This message was deleted by the user at 15:42, Thu 28 Dec 2023.
Hunter
member, 2041 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Thu 28 Dec 2023
at 21:13
  • msg #810

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 803):

I did eventually find it, though I'd never have figured that out on my own.    Thank you.
BFink
member, 102 posts
Fri 29 Dec 2023
at 08:22
  • msg #811

Re: RPoL Design Update

With a new site running smoothly, can we, perhaps, consider adding a new feature that would surely make lives of many of us easier? I mean colours. Here's a little user story to explain what I mean.

As a player/GM I would like to be able to select a default text colour for my character/NPC (perhaps somewhere in character description?) so that this colour is considered as default. Additionally, I would like to have additional Quick formatting option called "Colour", so that whenever I select a piece of text and click "colour", the piece gets tagged <colour></colour> and once posted, it is displayed using the default colour selected for my character. (Obviously this should apply only to games, not public forums).

Yes, I know I can do it using "style text" dropdown, but it takes a lot of time, especially with longer dialogue posts. (Unless I am being dumb and there is an easier way of doing it that I'm not aware of).
Skald
moderator, 1050 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 29 Dec 2023
at 08:56

Re: RPoL Design Update

Suggestions for changes/improvements in new threads please !

Though perhaps your variation on the theme might fit in this existing thread ?  <modesty forbids>  ;P

link to a message in this forum
bottleface
member, 7 posts
Fri 29 Dec 2023
at 21:22
  • msg #813

Re: RPoL Design Update

patchwolf:
Short answer?  No.

However, getting back the real estate is easy.
  1. Go here: https://r.rpol.net/usermodules...ile.cgi?theme=create
  2. Load your preferred theme and click Grab them (or create your own colour scheme)
  3. Scroll down until you find this line... maximum page width (1,000 to 2,000):
  4. change that value to 2,000, and save.
  5. enjoy a return to widescreen goodness.


Thank you, this helps a lot. Still got some wasted real estate but not near as much. It makes swallowing the new design a bit easier.

Edit: I did find that zooming in a bit within the browser helps with the remainder of the wasted real estate. Though sadly 'thread details' still take multiple lines even when there's a ton of space to fit it on one line. However, looking at posts in here it seems that is by design.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:35, Fri 29 Dec 2023.
NowhereMan
member, 507 posts
Sat 30 Dec 2023
at 04:49
  • msg #814

Re: RPoL Design Update

I do hope that we eventually get the option to use a legacy layout, but I imagine it's very, very low on the priority list. I do find myself logging into RPoL a lot less since the update, but I'll get used to it eventually.
Ski-Bird
subscriber, 248 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 00:58
  • msg #815

Re: RPoL Design Update

Apologies if this has been listed / mentioned elsewhere.

I have a ton of threads to catch up on after the responsive version of the site became the default version that we all use (and it's possible that what I'm about to mention has already been discussed).

A random bit of weirdness.  The page count section of multiple posts within a thread, and the page count of multiple pages of threads appear differently.

If you are on a page with multiple threads, and it reaches into multiple pages of threads, it looks like so:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi...boghrvtjzmp&dl=0

But then, once you are in a thread, and it has multiple pages of posts, it looks like so:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi...ktojotg5lwt&dl=0

In and of itself, I guess those differences are harmless.  They both pretty much do what's being asked of them. I do find the second one a bit jarring (I guess it's weird for me to read from left-to-right in a descending order.

For some reason "Page 1 of 23 <<1,2,3 ... 23>>" makes more sense to my eye than does "Page 1 of 23 <<23 ... 3,2,1>>"

Specifically, though, my observation/gripe would be that when clicking onto the next page of a thread that I'm reading (either by clicking on the 'Newer' button or on the hyperlinked # of the succeeding page ... when the next page of responses loads, it does so by displaying the very bottom of the next page and then I have to scroll up to begin reading that-which-has-gone-before.

So as a dumb example, let's say I am on a thread that has spanned 32 posts over two pages.  I start on page one and I get to read the posts #1 thru #16, in order, on that page.  But then when I click through to page two, the page will load with the page scrolled all the way down showing the last post on that page (#32) and I would have to scroll back up through all sorts of quite-potentially-spoilery-goodness to get to the next post (#17) that I would like to read.
Skald
moderator, 1063 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 04:29
  • msg #816

Re: RPoL Design Update

A) The difference between the way thread pages and post pages are numbered hasn't changed from the old site and any suggestion to change should be put up in a new thread in RPoL Development (that said, I'd vote to standardise, so please do !!  :> )

B) The page behaviour when navigating to a new thread page ... I'm pretty sure that's new (now I come to think on't I had noticed that or something similar but thought it was my browser) and I agree, it should be going back to the top.  Question is, does that work both ways ?  IE ...

IF you're on page one (posts 1-16) and navigate to the next page, you'd want to see the next post in order first (17)

IF you're on page two (posts 17-32) and navigate to the previous page, would you want to see the previous post first (16 at the bottom) or go to the first post on the page (1 at the top) ... I think there's an argument for both (17 if you just want to see what was posted immediately before, 1 if you want to read the whole lot), so it's probably easier to set default behaviour to go to the top of the page no matter whether you're navigating to the next or previous page.
Ski-Bird
subscriber, 249 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 06:00
  • msg #817

Re: RPoL Design Update

Skald:
… the way thread pages and post pages are numbered hasn't changed from the old site …

Ah. I guess I just never noticed before.

In any event, these gripes are super minor.  Still loving the site and really grateful for the time and effort Jase and all of the Mods put into it.
jdtucker
member, 84 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 07:23
  • msg #818

Re: RPoL Design Update

When I'm on my tablet and trying to edit pages, editing character descriptions, or quoting a text longer than the edit box it doesn't allow me to scroll down like the old site.  It does not recognize my focus in the box and just moves the entire screen up and down.

Currently I've gotten around this problem by highlighting a section of text and dragging one of the blue highlighting edge markers down which will scroll the edit box.

Is this a problem on the desktop?
Chernobyl
supporter, 178 posts
Area of desolate waste,
Mutation Central.
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 07:30
  • msg #819

Re: RPoL Design Update

I have to admit, styling text seems a pain on mobiles for sure. I always love posting on desktop more for that reason.
StitchWitch
member, 24 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 08:51
  • msg #820

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jdtucker (msg # 818):

I have the same problem on my phone, but I primarily run into it with posts. I have found clicking Preview and then going back into the box will fix it. Until I make a change and then I have to hit Preview again.

I honestly thought it was just me or my phone browser choice. I'm on Firefox on an Android which can do odd things on occasion.
nauthiz
subscriber, 801 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 14:44
  • msg #821

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jdtucker (msg # 818):

Have you tried tapping outside the text entry box?

On my phone this occurs as well and seems to be caused by the focus being on text entry.  Tapping outside makes the keyboard go away and I'm able to scroll normally again.

If you're using a keyboard that allows you to move the text cursor, you can also use that to scroll around.


I don't recall this being an observed behavior when the site was in testing, but I can't say if maybe it was and I somehow didn't notice.  It's only been something I recall running into recently, so it may have been some change to the site, or it may have been some change to my mobile's software.
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 613 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 15:23
  • msg #822

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to Ski-Bird (msg # 815):

quote:
But then when I click through to page two, the page will load with the page scrolled all the way down showing the last post on that page (#32) and I would have to scroll back up through all sorts of quite-potentially-spoilery-goodness to get to the next post (#17) that I would like to read.


To avoid that, you can use the little up/down arrows located in the upper and lower right-hand corner of the page (they look like a pair of nested Vs and upside-down nested Vs), and that'll take you immediately to the top or the bottom, avoiding any spoilers while scrolling =)
LittleStar
member, 16 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 15:43
  • msg #823

Re: RPoL Design Update

I don't know if this is a me issue, a new design issue or what, but for some reason, the "new post" icon disappears once I've opened the game now, instead of once I've read all of the new posted threads.

I'm not certain if this is a change, a feature or a setting, but please can you help forgetful people like me have "new post" icons until we've read all the new threads?

Thank you! 💕
nauthiz
subscriber, 802 posts
Sat 6 Jan 2024
at 15:49
  • msg #824

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to LittleStar (msg # 823):

That sounds like it might be an issue with the new post notification part of the site, as the icons should be behaving like they did with the old site.

If you haven't, you might try clearing any RPoL cookies from your browser and see if that fixes the issue.
LittleStar
member, 17 posts
Sun 7 Jan 2024
at 00:16
  • msg #825

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'll give it a go, thank you! I try to be a prompt roleplayer so if it's on my side I will deffo fix it.
Skald
moderator, 1074 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 14 Jan 2024
at 06:04
  • msg #826

Re: RPoL Design Update

Very minor display issue with the die roller results pasted into game thread post ...

Noticed that the part of the die roller results that display the roll, with dotted lines under, and shows details when you hover the mouse over it was displaying was visible on top of the top menu bar (though any explanatory text didn't show), but disappears as you keep scrolling (ie the result line is sitting under the menu bar, except for the end bit.

IE for the pasted results: 08:38, Today: Fred the Fighter rolled 12 using 1d20.  Attack. – 12 only the 12 at the end displays on top of the top menu bar.

(Note that the above is just plain text, not actual dice roller results, so won't display the observed in game behaviour)

If I had to guess, knowing nothing about the programming involved, I'd say the element just needs to be moved down the display priority list (whatever the equivalent of 'send to back' is).  ;P
jase
admin, 3929 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sun 14 Jan 2024
at 10:32
  • msg #827

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jdtucker (msg # 818):

Installed Firefox on my Samsung and can't replicate the issue.  If I swipe inside the text box then it'll scroll that until I get to the top/bottom and then it'll scroll the page instead.  Swiping out the edit area across the outage, add you'd expect.

Tested in this very thread by quoting a message that was about two screen's worth of scrolling, behaved the same as Chrome and the Samsung browser.
nauthiz
subscriber, 804 posts
Sun 14 Jan 2024
at 14:14
  • msg #828

Re: RPoL Design Update

In reply to jase (msg # 827):

Were you able to scroll the text box while the keyboard was displayed?  That seems to be the trigger for me.  Whatever the browser is doing when it detects you're entering text so the keyboard needs to be displayed seems lock out scrolling the text entry field via swiping.

Though if I navigate through moving the cursor, that will cause it to scroll.

I'm experiencing the issue using mobile Chrome for Android, Chrome ver 120.0.6099.210.


Additional testing using Firefox 121.1.0 appeared to indicate this is a chrome function as using RPoL via Firefox doesn't have this issue for me.

I also tried swapping keyboards to see if that was somehow a factor (as I use Gboard) but the Samsung keyboard didn't appear to alter behavior in either Chrome or Firefox.

A bunch of testing also revealed that it isn't that the text input field won't scroll, it's just very very finicky.  If I put my finger over the text entry field and just "wiggle" it enough so that the web page jiggles up and down, and I do that repeatedly, lifting my finger and doing that motion at different points on the screen across the text entry field I can eventually get the software to do whatever it's doing to switch scrolling focus from the web page to the text entry field, and then the text entry field will scroll as expected.  This method seems to work best when you don't have a lot of scroll range on the web page.  I was able to get it to work pretty consistently when I had the "edit" screen open for this post and there was nothing above the text entry area except a small bit of white space and the website menu bar and header.

I've just hit "preview" in the edit window so now the very large bunch of text from this message is above the text entry field and I can't get chrome to switch the scrolling focus now.

So in conclusion I would agree that this isn't a site issue but likely a user side issue with how the user's hardware/software is interacting with the site.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:56, Sun 14 Jan.
patchwolf
member, 88 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Sun 14 Jan 2024
at 14:59
  • msg #829

Re: RPoL Design Update

You should also be able to close the keyboard, and then scroll the page by touching outside the edit box and dragging as normal?
I haven't tested this, though.
nauthiz
subscriber, 805 posts
Sun 14 Jan 2024
at 16:01
  • msg #830

Re: RPoL Design Update

Yes, that was always an option (mentioned in msg #821).

My post above was mainly the results of trying to figure out why myself and at least one other user was observing this issue when Jase was not.

My main annoyance is I can't remember if it has always been this way and it has been such a minor thing that I never noticed, or if there was an update to the web browser that changed things at some point.

Either way, not the end of the world, and it's good to know it's not a bug with the site but rather a bug with whomever coded that bit of the web browser. :D
jase
admin, 3930 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Mon 15 Jan 2024
at 03:51

Re: RPoL Design Update

Can't replicate it on any browser using Samsung keyboard (that was my suspicion too, thanks for checking and ruling it out).  It looks very specific to certain setups and at this stage I don't think it's anything I can fix.
Chernobyl
supporter, 190 posts
Area of desolate waste,
Mutation Central.
Mon 15 Jan 2024
at 03:59
  • msg #832

Re: RPoL Design Update

I'm wondering what you're actually doing. This is what I get when I click on the 5 successes part (same as the 3 dots for VtM I believe)

https://i.imgur.com/tdTb9KZ.png

I know the text cuts off, but if I scroll to the right I can see the whole result of the rolls.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:03, Mon 15 Jan.
Skald
moderator, 1076 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Mon 15 Jan 2024
at 04:55
  • msg #833

Re: RPoL Design Update

Longshot, but there were some reports on the interwebs a few years back about something called App Cache Cleaner adversely impacting on scrolling behaviour.

One of the troubleshooting suggestions was to try running the device in Safe mode (press and hold the power button until power options appear then tap and hold Power Off until you see Reboot to safe mode) to see if the behaviour persists.
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