DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1199 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 12:10
Portrai image
It isn't a browser issue, it is a connection issue. After I use 1gb of data, my connection gets slowed. It is supposed to be 2g, but I think it is much slower.

On a good day I get about 1mb per minute download speed, sometimes it takes up to 2 minutes per mb.

Modern sites tend to make use of faster connections available to add lots of flash and pizzazz, and leave us poor folks who can't pay for top speed connections suffering for it. Heck, half the time, the ads auto download more stuff, and images tend to get priority over text for some reason. Though that is mostly on other sites. On a good connection, it goes unnoticed, but on a bad one, it makes a massive difference on forum choice.

For example, I don't even try to go to Overmare Studios without a Starbucks connection anymore.
Skald
 moderator, 792 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 14:39
Portrai image
I'm not seeing any change in graphics on responsive vs old, though - should be pretty much the same, just formatted differently.  Downloading ~11KB shouldn't even be noticeable when comparing normal download speed with shaping.

F'rinstance, on the latest version of Firefox I'm getting a faster generation time than those jase posted above, but slower rendering ... than jase's figures,that is, not sure what old site is, but doesn't feel any different and nothing that worries me particularly:

Generated/rendered in 0.022/2.344 seconds.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1200 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 20:43
Portrai image
The responsive site isn't bad. It does take longer but I was mostly pointing out something I'd prefer not to lose in the shift to responsive.

There sites out there I just can't visit because the download time. I know it is the download time because if I have a good fast connection, then there isn't a problem.

Just figured it was important to note that speed is still important even in this day and age when some companies would like you to believe that everyone has a T1 line or better.
Skald
 moderator, 793 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 30 Sep 2017
at 12:52
Load speed
Interesting ... just updated Firefox to 56.0 and the responsive site now loading roughly twice as fast - consistently getting numbers such as the below for the Main screen:

Generated/rendered in 0.018/1.036 seconds.
jase
 admin, 3568 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 3 Oct 2017
at 10:29
Portrai image
In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 110):

As mentioned responsive is smaller.  Only about 1% smaller due to the fact the whole page is compressed by about 80% before it's transmitted (in raw form it's about 10% smaller, but that's lost in the compression), but the important thing is it is smaller.  So any slowdowns you're seeing are either transient internet issues, device/software issues, or placebo due to unfortunate interactions with other sites (note, flash and pizzazz have nothing to do with responsive sites, there's absolutely none of that here, as should be evident).
Samus Aran
 member, 368 posts
 Author, game designer
 Part-time Metroid fighter
Sat 7 Oct 2017
at 06:02
Re: Portrai image
LoreGuard:
A couple of the Mods have donated storage space for specific image categories, I believe.  So the individual Mods in question might be able to authorize responsive.rpol.net to be a valid linking source, for them to show up.


Oh, also, I am willing to help out more with the portraits on the new site than I've been able to do here (yet). Organization, uploading, etc. Whatever you folks need! I have suggestions for new categories and reorganized ones, too.
jkeogh
 member, 73 posts
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 04:09
Re: Portrai image
In reply to Samus Aran (msg # 113):

Is there a running bug log for the responsive design?
LonePaladin
 member, 675 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 19:24
Re: Portrai image
Samus Aran:
I have suggestions for new categories and reorganized ones, too.

We could use a category for things that aren't creatures and/or people. Inanimate objects, logos, heraldry, isolated body parts (like "eyes", or "hands", or "mouths" with no context), terrain. Obviously a smaller category than any of the existing ones, but when you're looking for something that isn't a critter it's hard to figure out where to look.
Skald
 moderator, 797 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Wed 27 Dec 2017
at 13:27
Main menu headings
Just noticed that the post number column looks a little weird with the staggered "Posts" text, due to sensibly right justifying the actual number ... would probably look cleaner if we had GM and Posts labels in each header (smaller font is fine, if not better than the section heading) ... plus I suppose it'd save a minuscule amount of bandwidth if it only had to send GM and Posts once per section rather than for each line in it.  Though I think I'd primarily argue aesthetics. ;>
jase
 admin, 3590 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 21 Apr 2018
at 02:14
Small update
Just did a small update to the responsive site.  Hopefully nothing broke but let me know if I managed to.  (c;
jase
 admin, 3594 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 25 May 2018
at 14:46
Another small update
  1. Improved rMail layout.
  2. Formatting bar better... formatted.
  3. Moved private thread screen to responsive.  Still needs tweaking (namely the checkboxes) but should otherwise work.
  4. Other stuff I've already forgotten.  (c;

Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2513 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:40
Re: Another small update
jase:
Moved private thread screen to responsive.
That's over at http://beta.rpol.net right?
bigbadron
 moderator, 15570 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:48
Re: Another small update
In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 119):

Wrong.  http://responsive.rpol.net/
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2514 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:54
Re: Another small update
Oh cool!

This responsive site seems very nice, and I'm sure it'll be better on my phone when I look at it tonight.  Is there a way to get the responsive site to use all of my screen when on desktop? :)
bigbadron
 moderator, 15571 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 25 May 2018
at 16:58
Re: Another small update
In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 121):

On mine it does use the whole screen.  I believe you have to tweak your browser settings (enlarge the text).
Skald
 moderator, 818 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 27 May 2018
at 12:49
Re: Another small update
Following on from a discussion in Community Chat, I'm pleased to note that jase has kindly added the sign up date to the RPoL user information block on the User Preferences page on the new responsive site - http://responsive.rpol.net/usermodules/profile.cgi.

Usual caveat - if you see either "Before 08:00, Sun 23 Oct 2005" or "Before 10:53, Sat 05 May 2007" that means you're old school and an accurate date is not available.

And note the sign up date is only available on the responsive site, not at the main rpol.net site.


Thanks jase !  :>
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1357 posts
Sun 27 May 2018
at 21:24
Re: Another small update
One thing I notice though about size, you can't tell the website how wide it should be, and I don't mean the display on desktop but rather, you can't tell the website that it should be X characters wide instead of Y characters wide.

I have yet to see that on any responsive site. I don't know if it is a technical limitation, but it is one of the bigger reasons I hate responsive sites. Old school html was the sort that fiddling with the browser was not only an actual option (now-a-days the options of this sort are only on desktops) but because of how old school html worked, it naturally just word-wrapped everything so you could just scale the entire page usually, more importantly, it was global to all sites.

But responsive sites might alter text small amounts, if you're lucky enough to have the option, but not only is each individual now, but giant icons stay giant-sized. You can't even use desktop site and zoom in.

I figure allowing user to set the "X pixels wide" might actually make this adjustable in a workable way, but I lack the appropriate knowledge to try anything of the sort myself (and I've got too many projects right now as it is).
matthewfenn
 member, 482 posts
 Magic the Gathering
 Spreadsheet Developer
Sun 27 May 2018
at 22:55
Re: Another small update
bigbadron:
In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 121):

On mine it does use the whole screen.  I believe you have to tweak your browser settings (enlarge the text).

I confess I'm not yet a big fan of the responsive site...  I like being able to stretch my web page wide (I have a 3440 x 1440 monitor, and frequently use half of it for a web browser and the other half for Excel...  so roughly 1700 wide browser...  which has a lot of wasted space in the responsive site - whereas on the current site, it spreads the text of posts nice and wide - meaning you can see more posts on the one page...  I'm not sure enlarging the text is going to help me there...
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2516 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Mon 28 May 2018
at 15:42
Re: Another small update
matthewfenn:
roughly 1700 wide browser...  which has a lot of wasted space in the responsive site - whereas on the current site, it spreads the text of posts nice and wide - meaning you can see more posts on the one page...

Same with mine. On desktop, the responsive site has a whole bunch of water space on both sides.

I know there are studies which say that the "optional" size for reading is like 600 or 800 normal pixels wide or something, but I grew up with web browsers that took up the whole screen. I like big wide things that take up all of my screen, and the responsive site doesn't do that.
jase
 admin, 3596 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 29 May 2018
at 01:28
Re: Another small update
We're actually mixing/confusing two things here; responsive and a narrower layout.  They're actually completely independent, though often done hand in hand.

I also have an ultrawide 3440x1440 34" and RPoL is ridiculous if I full screen... actually, let me rephrase that.  Any reading is ridiculous if I make it full screen and the text stretches unabated.

Sure I can snap the window left or right and go half-screen, but then I'm talking about a narrower aspect ratio than a normal monitor... and if we're complaining that the responsive site is too narrow but my normal methodology is to reduce my screen size width then it's really just proving that the current site is too wide.

Every readability guide you'll find will talk about maximum line width (relative to the font size, and normally in conjunction with line height).  Going too long, for the vast majority, reduces reading speed.

Let me take a step back.  When RPoL was originally designed ten years ago the average screen resolution was 1024x768.  If you were lucky this was on a 21" monitor.. and if you haven't figured it out the aspect ratio was a narrow 4x3.  Screen real estate was a premium which is why RPoL has absolutely no margins.

Now we've got huge resolutions, wide or ultrawide monitors and much larger screens.  There has to be a limit on how wide the site can go and all the recommendations talk about a certain length relative to the font size and line height.  We've actually gone wider than the recommendation.  Actually, the recommendation is narrow lines and larger font, but we understand that people are used to the current format and that'd be going too far.

Another reason for limiting the width is that we have to have some limit so we know how we can layout the site.  We can work out the flow, the rhythm (this is all theory though, I'm not really a graphic designer so I'm doing what I can).  It's really great to know the message box will be between xxx pixels and yyy pixels.

That all said, the aim is to make the custom theme designer have a "max width" option.
matthewfenn
 member, 483 posts
 Magic the Gathering
 Spreadsheet Developer
Tue 29 May 2018
at 07:59
Re: Another small update
quote:
That all said, the aim is to make the custom theme designer have a "max width" option.
Really good to hear that.
quote:
There has to be a limit on how wide the site can go
Why does there have to be a limit?
I appreciate that "readability guides" may well suggest optimum line length and font size for readability - however if it turns from being a guide to a rule - well, that just smacks of the Nanny State.

Different people find different things easier to read in different ways.  I change the width of the window depending on what I'm reading.   Sometimes having it super wide helps.  Sometimes having it narrower is better.  Being able to change it at will by simply stretching the window is ideal.  I just don't get why having a somewhat  arbitrary limit is necessary?
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1358 posts
Tue 29 May 2018
at 10:22
Re: Another small update
Probably technical limitations. I can't speak for web, but my console programs benefit from knowing the max width. It means that can address a set block of memory for characters to be displayed and test that without worrying that someone might go wider and cause an out of bounds error from trying to display more than can be handled.

That is of course just an example that may not exactly match website issues, but just saying that code sometimes makes assumptions and then enforces them to prevent errors.
jase
 admin, 3598 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 9 Jun 2018
at 04:27
Re: Another small update
matthewfenn:
quote:
There has to be a limit on how wide the site can go

Why does there have to be a limit?
I appreciate that "readability guides" may well suggest optimum line length and font size for readability - however if it turns from being a guide to a rule - well, that just smacks of the Nanny State.

I think you're going a bit a lot over the top there.

As mentioned we went with what's recommended for readability, saw what it looked like and made it even wider.  I wouldn't know good readability and typography if it leapt out of my monitor and slapped me in the face, so we did a lot of research into what those with an eye for such things recommend, and 99% of it was all the same.  We reached what we thought was a good compromise between the recommendations (which is quite a bit narrower) and what we've currently got.  To have it thrown in my face like we're oppressing you is quite ridiculous.

I appreciate feedback but it has to be reasonable.  Yes there's are rules absolutely everywhere.  Currently there's a rule that the logo is in the top left, that the help button is cruelly forced to the top right and we've all railroaded into using Verdana as the site font!

Designing anything is about making decisions.  Rules as you call them.  We've made plenty.  To call it a nanny state because you don't agree with a rule decision is ludicrous and, as you can tell, not appreciated.

As for why there's a max width.. the same as the reason why there's a minimum width we'll code for.  If I shrink the (responsive or current) site to a too narrow view then things start to squash and relocate to places that they're not supposed to... but that's well beyond the minimum with that we support (and well below what any mobile has).  I can test all the way down to the minimum supported width and make sure everything is pixel perfect.

It's not exactly the same with a maximum width, but beyond a certain point things start to be too far apart, ratios are completely wrong and reading speed actually decreases.  Without testing everywhere from one through to crazy we've got no way of knowing how the layout will end up looking.  Having a maximum width means I can grab the side of my browser window and play with the width between the two limits and make sure the layout is correct and functional for the whole range.

One of the biggest boons about having a max width is that we then know how wide the body section of messages will be.  That lets us design around certain constraints, put in certain wrap points to maintain readability, plus start doing some nifty things like putting in lightboxes for images.

Anyway, I'm really just repeating what I've already said so I'll stop.
matthewfenn
 member, 485 posts
 Magic the Gathering
 Spreadsheet Developer
Sat 9 Jun 2018
at 07:31
Re: Another small update
Sorry Jase, didn't mean it to come across that way.  I humbly beg your forgiveness for my over-the-top response.  I really do appreciate all the effort and hard work you've put into your site over the years - it has given me many, many hours of enjoyment and I really want you to know that your efforts are not unappreciated.

I think the new site design is, for the most part an excellent improvement on general looks and certainly readbility when on a mobile/ipad type device.   My personal opinion is just that on the screen width issue - it's imposing a new limitation that wasn't there before for what seems to me just cosmetic reasons, and I just don't really understand why it is needed.

Sure, for most use-cases, where people are only reading blocks of text, then having a maximum width for comfortable reading is probably a boon...   But sometimes having the ability to make it a lot wider is just, well useful...

For example, posting a really big picture/map, or a large combat grid:
-17-L-K-J-I-H-G-F-E-D-C-B-AABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW
-16...................................
-15................. UU  L ...........
-14.............. .. UU  DM...........
-13.............   &&   .  ...........
-12.............  _&&_  .  ...........
-11.............  ___  .  ...........
-10.............  ____  .  ...........
-9.............        .  ...........
-8................^^....  ...........
-7................^^....  ...........
-6........        C         .........
-5........       BEM        .....    
-4.......   #.  #.R #.  #.    ...    
-3.......#  ..  ..  ..  ..    /..    
-2........         'Y        .....    
-1........                  .        
1.........#  ..  ..  ..  #..        
2..........  .#  .\   \  ..         
3........                  .        
4    ....                  ....     
5          .#  ./  ./  ./           
6          ..  ..  ..  ..           
7    ....                  ...      
8    .. ..                 .  ......
9    .. ...  ..  ..  ..  ...  .     
10  ........  .\  \.  .#  ..   .     
11  .>>>                   ..!.. @   
12..>>>>                   >>!       
13.>^                      >>!       
14^^                       ..!.. @   
15^^      ..  ./  ./  .#  ......     
16^^     ...  ..  ..  ..  ...  .     
17^<<   ..                  .  ......
18.<<<....                  ...      
19...<.  .  ..  ..  ..  ..    .      
20  ...  .  ..  ..  ..  ..    .      
21                          ...      
22                          .        
23            ..  ..  ..  ...        
24            ..  ..  ..  ...        

Or perhaps a turn in a card game:

TURN TWO
Untap, Upkeep, Draw
1st Main Phase:
Play a Thalakos Lowlands http://magiccards.info/br/en/88.html

Attack Phase:

2nd Main Phase:

End Turn Phase:

LIFE: 40
HAND: 6
DECK: 90
(A 100 card deck)   This deck is legal in:  Commander, Highlander.  - No Errors. - it contains 57 Rares and 9 Mythic and 5 Special (71% of deck), of which 28 are lands.  It has no Sideboard..
Commanders:
Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker - (Legendary Bird Monk, 1/1, {2}{W}{U} (4)
Flying
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker.
Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.))
[http://magiccards.info/c16/en/33.html]
    "Through me, the Great Teacher's voice will rattle this world."
Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix - (Legendary Human Wizard, 2/3, {2}{G}{U} (4)
{T}: Add {C} to your mana pool for each card you've drawn this turn.
Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.))
[http://magiccards.info/c16/en/35.html]
    She bears the greatest burden of all: that of knowing.



BATTLEFIELD:
Land:
    Scattered Groves http://magiccards.info/akh/en/247.html
    ({T}: Add {G} or {W} to your mana pool.)
    Scattered Groves enters the battlefield tapped.
    Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.)

    Thalakos Lowlands http://magiccards.info/br/en/88.html
    {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool.
    {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Thalakos Lowlands doesn't untap during your next untap step.

Creatures:
Enchantments:
Artifacts:
Planeswalkers:

GRAVEYARD:

EXILED:
Draft Post created using v 11.6

This message was last edited by the user at 07:32, Sat 09 June.

Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2535 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Sat 9 Jun 2018
at 15:07
Re: Another small update
How about putting in a personal CSS page?

Something like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:User_style

That'd let us make it as wide as we want, we can use flexbox and apply particular orders to everything, etc.

Basically a user-writeable Scratchpad for the site, and the site loads that CSS after site CSS so that our page will overwrite whatever the site says. With a class added to every element then those of us who want wide text windows can have it and more. :D