Just guessing, but some reasons could be

"Heaven" is not very descriptive and it is unclear what this forum is for.   I always thought it was for the "gods" ie moderators and admins to discuss things. I was never curious enough to open this forum in the time I've been on this site and until now never saw it discussed.  So I'd be reluctant to put things their I want to share as it doesn't appear to me that many people would look there.

Now that I look, one needs to request access.  Can't just reply to topics.  Does one need to request access to each individual topic in heave?  One can't post a new topic by default like other threads.  It is unclear what one can and can't do here.

I believe it is a "flat" linear forum vs the game area or a wiki where one can have a bit more organization.

You don't get access to the forum (and don't need it - it isn't a discussion forum, it's simply a set of managed lists).  Requesting access allows you to submit links, character sheets, etc... in your RtJ.  A moderator then checks for duplication, broken links, etc, and posts the resources in the appropriate threads (or starts a new one if necessary).

Our aim is to keep the lists useful and clean, and a hundred copies of the same link scattered throughout a thread would just be redundant clutter.

Ron, do you realise how unwelcoming the name "Heaven" is? And how many of the links that are already there don't work? And, finally, how discouraging it can be to see that the last posts are from 2012?

I am keen to use it and post there some Eclipse Phase materials (plus, perhaps, some WFRP) and I believe many other users would do that as well. However, taking into consideration that for the last three years there have not been any activity in Heaven is perhaps the best indicator that the name of that forum should be changed (or at least [Gaming Aids] bit added to it).

Changes to the forum are already under discussion.

If people are reluctant to use it, however, there wouldn't seem to be much point to making those changes.

So what's preferred?  A single managed list of resources, or several different forums to search through in order to find that one that has the item your interested in?

People are reluctant to use it because there is not clear sign "Gaming aids here". Though I agree with several points made here, I think the only change necessary at this point is a simple changing of "Heaven" into "Gaming aids".

Only after that, when you (mods) see the rising interest of people in sending their materials via RTJ, further changes should be discussed.

In other words: a single managed list of resources is fine for me. But certainly not under the present, fancy name.

Having now re-checked Heaven, I note that with the exception of the 'Rpol Discussion Forums', all the links are to external sites.

May I suggest that with the safeguard of moderator-only posting that exists in Heaven, a thread containing links to other Rpol 'games' that benefit the community at large may be possible. You could always include a disclaimer denying any implicit recommendation if that worries you.

This would effectively do what I (and others) need - it would provide a go-to point for anyone wishing to access such Rpol-based resources.

In order to ensure that all such 'games' are listed, I would suggest that anyone can recommend a game to the Heaven forum, not just the GMs (who might not even be aware that the Heaven Forum exists). Within a short space of time, most such 'games' would be listed, and the (annoying?) suggestions to link them would dry up.

Perhaps, too, the existence and purpose of the Heaven forum could be made more prominent, perhaps as a sticky somewhere, increasing its usage and usefulness.

Except that I don't think Heaven really gets updated.  The last update was in 2012, and I know I submitted at least one request in 2014 that doesn't appear to be added.

There have also been "Lurker Lounges" and such in the past where gamers can congregate and exchange ideas, stories, and help each other out.

Since most people probably don't know about such games and helps out there, +1 to this idea.

The forum is one of those which is automatically added to the sticky list of every new user.  If people later choose to remove it from their list, without taking a look to see what it is first, then there is nothing we can do about that.

No, it hasn't been updated recently, which is why the mods have been discussing changes to the forum and its operation.

The thing is just like discusion forums, a person can try and set one up and if it does well, can be made more official.

If I need a text based character sheet, or map design I go to heaven unless the game already has it in it.  And if it is an old hand at Rpol where do you think they got it in the first place.  Now Should Heaven be the place for specially created versions of character sheets made from the standard.. I don't .  But that doesn't mean that they aren't useful for some games.  What if you want to play a published campaign area that has a few extra fields needed for entry of date only needed for that particular campaign.
Secondary Game Aid "Games" would be useful.

But we players have to remember Not to post non OGL published Items in these open forums that is not like data a GM posts in a GM only Thread Group to quickly access data while playing the game.  Which will make another wonderful problem for the Moderators to worry about the more Official they make it the more they will have to worry.

Yes, I'll admit it. I never checked Heaven and de-stickied it after I joined... I thought it was just a place to post dead characters or something. There are some good things there, but dummies like me would never know it. ;-)

Effectively Heaven does the job that needed but doesn't do it very well.

I would be on board with a name change, that fats a +0/5 from me.

However an interactive discussion forum where anyone is free to post gets a whole +2 from me. the problem of repeated postings i don;t think is huge if it gets used propperally. that way the games that start up for labeling portatis e.t.c could just be stickied threads innside of Heaven.

Also if user submitted material is mostly unmoderatted there, although duplication will occur innovation will also.

I like th idea quite a lot.

Which is why we have already discussed changes to it.


It would need to be moderated to ensure that it is used properly.


Unfortunately you will not see a "mostly unmoderated" public forum on RPoL.  Users are, however, free to set up their own forum type boards and operate them as they see fit.

Maybe I totally missed something above--which I am prone to do--but isn't this suggestion about adding a new category to help point people to such independently operating boards?

I think that's a great idea.  A moderated board is great for the masses, but independently operated games are better for more esoteric or specific gaming aids.  As it is, those are hard to track down, so I think a new category would be a nice addition to help those to be found (and allows advertising to be more specific too).

Yes, that was the original suggestion, but I was responding to the post that I quoted, which was asking for a new public forum.

However, regarding the request for a new category, steps were taken to make the independent forums easier to find - some were mentioned in the Game Systems forum (which seemed like an appropriate place  to post links to them, while a thread was also added to the Heaven forum (only two GMs asked to have their specialist forums mentioned there, and one of those boards has since died).

Also note that advertising of these independent forums, if they are open to all, would not be permitted in Wanted - Players (that's why they were listed in Game Systems and Heaven instead), since an open forum doesn't actually recruit players.  So a new category would not help advertising at all.

Good to know!  I think that last point makes the new category an even better candidate for addition.

I just looked at Game Systems forum.  I notice that it doesn't let you link or mention individual games (as a moderated forum), which is actually the exact opposite purpose of having a Gaming Aids category (i.e., to lead people to individual games).

So I think a Gaming Aids category would definitely serve a unique purpose and serve an existent need on RPoL.

In the Game Systems forum, independently owned forums are linked to in the rules thread at the top of the forum.  In Heaven they were included in a thread called (oddly enough) RPOL Discussion Forums.

Note that in both of these cases, forums were only added if the GMs asked for them to be included (not everybody wants their private forum advertised).

I can appreciate this, and I'd be the last person to invade someone's privacy, but I suspect there are a far larger number of GMs who are simply unaware that such facilities exist. If all members are able to recommend the addition of a useful resource, and then the moderators contact the GM to ask if they would like their game to be added, everybody is happy - more resources are added, GMs get their games advertised where people can find them, people can find the resources they need, and the site facilities get used to their full potential. And any GM who doesn't want to be advertised can simply say 'thanks but no thanks'.

GMs were informed of the option, so the "far larger number of GMs who are simply unaware that such facilities exist" would actually be far less than you suspect.

Basically if a GM wanted to change his game to an open forum, he was told that it would stop him advertising in W-P, but we could post a link for him in Game Systems.

Adding a forum list to Heaven was a change that came in after a suggestion and (brief) conversation in a thread in this forum about discussion boards.

I'm a little confused.  I thought our topic was this:  Add a category for the search engine for Gaming Aids -- i.e., that it would be added as a Game Genre to select in the GM Menu and used for the search categories.

Then when people search, they can see the various games that are intended as gaming aids or related forums (which, again, would be selected under the "Game Details" of the "GM Menu" like any other game).  So a search would find these games, find whether they are accepting "players," etc., like any other game.  I don't see the crossover with privacy, or else every category in the search engine would have the same problem.

Selecting the game "genre" in the GM Menu would be the same as adding their own game or opting into the search engine, just like any other game genre.

The topic has drifted somewhat.  Initially it was a request for a new category, but then people started asking for other things, like a forum specifically for game aids.

As I've said, the Heaven forum is currently being assessed as a "one stop" location for finding game aids, and there are changes to it which have not yet been finalised.

Perhaps it might be best to see what those changes are, before deciding that they are less useful than a new category, containing multiple forums to be searched through so that you can find that one specific character sheet that you need.

True, but I guess I was thinking of the sites where there is more interaction, such as players and GMs helping each other--not just a search for material to recycle, though that would fit in as well.

In any case, I guess we'll see...

In reply to Heath (msg # 37):

Game aids- advise

Perhaps, then, the totally unaware GMs is less than I thought - assuming others have been alerted to the options since 2012.

However, your second paragraph suggests that perhaps rather than being uninterested, they simply chose the devil they knew.
I don't understand why the resource 'games' can't be advertised both ways - why the need to choose? If they're producing a resource that benefits the community, can't they be rewarded with a little extra advertising?

I submitted some language links in Heaven in July or so. If I had my own forum with the Gaming Aids category, it's exactly the kind of thing people would expect to find in the game marked as such, rather than waiting on changes to a mod-ran subforum.

I say that not as a criticism of mods, rather a means to let mods focus on important stuff like site features and rules moderation, and let the players focus on stuff to add to their games.