Perusing the categories list, I notice that there is no effective way for players to search for ‘games’ that provide useful gaming materials, and no logical place for GMs to put the stuff so it can be found.

I know a number of people have created indexes to the portrait gallery, lists of ‘grab and go’ NPCs, game design forums, etc, but it’s almost impossible to find all this useful stuff because there’s no logical search category for it, and GMs seldom advertise it under Players Wanted.

Wouldn’t it be great if you could just search through a list of Gaming Aids, finding what you were looking for easily, and discovering lots of useful stuff you never knew existed?

Not just aids, but non-games.

I have one game that is just a few writing challenges, suppossed to be for anyone who wants to do them and open for all to read. So it really isn't a game persay.

Can the main menu have sub topics?  Perhaps Game Aids could have a sub topic under Game Systems instead of it's own separate category?

Work around?  People could create a "game" with their aids.  The game name/title is what is searched on so it would have to be descriptive.  When creating the game, if it for a specific genre, like fantasy or survival mark it as such and people can search on this too.

A suggested format: simply have Game Aid as part of the name of the game.

This makes me think of a possibility instead of having it's own category, you could make a genre "Game Aid".

The Heaven forum ( link to another game ) can be used to store character sheets and other game aids (such as links to name generators, etc).  Just submit the item that you want to add in an RtJ.

One could also build a game and work towards getting it submitted as a Discussion category.

So if one were to make a board to help people play 5th Edition DnD or perhaps Pathfinder.  After running it as a basic game for a while I believe you can apply to have it become a Discussion forum.  Providing such content in a sticky thread would seem an appropriate use of a Discussion forum.  Submitting new material and such and other discussion about the game could occur there.

Just a thought.

What about putting "game aids" in as a game system? the make up of such a game could be rather specialist, or very broad.  So in most cases what was normal makeup of that Game would need to be made clear in the name or discription anyway.

I support C-h Freese suggestion, this seems like an easy and elegant solution!

The advantage of the Heaven forum is that it is moderated, so we don't see the same links posted a hundred times by different people, something that would probably happen with a "game aids" category or system option.

Also note that people can already specify the system as "game aids" if they want to - the field allows for text entry.

Not sure I'm understanding -- exactly -- what everyone means by "game aids?"

One that I have on my sticky list that might be an example:

There is a game that is devoted to finding identities for all the portraits in the gallery. Inside the game, there is a thread for listing any identifications you've made so they can be added to the list. Then there are separate threads for female and male. In those threads, there is a post for each subsection of the gallery with tables that list the portrait ID with the name of the person in the portrait and any extra information (like what movie, etc. the picture is from).

There is no actual play in this game. The entire purpose is to have a group of people identifying the faces in the portrait gallery. So, for instance if you had a character and you thought, "She would look just like Penelope Cruz." you could go into the threads, search for Penelope Cruz and see if one of her portraits in the gallery looked right.

It's set up in a game, but it's not actually a game. It would be more of a game aid.

I assume there are other games that are similar but with different purposes.

I hadn't considered problems with multiple links, but then I'm looking at it from a player/GM's POV not a moderator's. I can't picture how much of a problem that would be.

Yes, people can describe their games as 'game aids' if they want to, but how many would? How many variations of that might there be? For the purposes of a search, it would be useless. Likewise, how many of the currently available goodies are listed in Heaven? And how do you find the ones that aren't? There don't appear to have been any new posts to Heaven since 2012! How popular is that?

My difficulty is simply this:
There are a number of 'games' in existence, such as the portrait identifier described by Maidenfine, or collections of ready made, off-the-peg NPCs, or similar provisions, but there is no way to find them.

There is no way to search for all the game aids that have been made, and unless the GMs advertise them every week in Players Wanted, nobody knows they exist - except by some underground grapevine, if you're fortunate enough to stumble across one. And the grapevine has to be underground because you get your knuckles rapped if you openly try to point someone to something they need.

The only chance you have to find something like that is if the people who create them put them in the same place. But there is no obvious place to put them. Every creator makes a different choice for description, and the searcher hasn't got a hope of finding the resources s/he needs.

I'm simply suggesting an obvious place to put them.

I agree with icosahedron152: I am sure such things exist, and I am equally sure that while Heaven is a good Start it is a vastly restricted and restrictive resource: For example: I have created an Exalted character sheet which is based on the ones listed in that forum: but more set up for ease of use on an RPoL character sheet: but I have submitted such things in the past and they were not posted cause they were 'too similar' to what already existed.

Sure, they are: they are based on that good work after all: But to quote Chairman Shen'ji Yang: "Technological advance is an inherently iterative process, one does not take sand from a beach and produce a data probe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each iteration is a step in the process and all of the steps must be taken."

Now if we had a searchable category or system we could at last summon together all of the resources ginned up by the RPoL community and share with each other all the incremental improvements that right now are being wasted because this 'moderated' forum does not recognize the need for incremental advance and development.

The "system" is searchable, and can be set at any time (meaning that the existing forums, such as the portrait search ones, can be "retrofitted" with the appropriate tag).

Actually it does (just about every feature on the site was suggested by users).  However, as an individual site user, I am simply pointing out that this particular suggested feature actually duplicates an existing one.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:43, Wed 04 Mar 2015.

But which appropriate tag? Everyone chooses a different one, because there is no official one.

One GM will tag it 'portraits', another will tag it 'game-aids', a third will tag it 'discussion', a fourth will tag it 'avatars', a fifth will tag it 'useful stuff'...

How do you search for it?

The tag can be set by the user, so we don't have any control over what they use.  Even if we set a "game aids" one, people would still be free to use "portraits" or whatever instead.

I'm curious about the reluctance of people to accept that there is an official forum which ALREADY exists for listing this sort of thing, which I mentioned above - Heaven.

Just guessing, but some reasons could be

"Heaven" is not very descriptive and it is unclear what this forum is for.   I always thought it was for the "gods" ie moderators and admins to discuss things. I was never curious enough to open this forum in the time I've been on this site and until now never saw it discussed.  So I'd be reluctant to put things their I want to share as it doesn't appear to me that many people would look there.

Now that I look, one needs to request access.  Can't just reply to topics.  Does one need to request access to each individual topic in heave?  One can't post a new topic by default like other threads.  It is unclear what one can and can't do here.

I believe it is a "flat" linear forum vs the game area or a wiki where one can have a bit more organization.

You don't get access to the forum (and don't need it - it isn't a discussion forum, it's simply a set of managed lists).  Requesting access allows you to submit links, character sheets, etc... in your RtJ.  A moderator then checks for duplication, broken links, etc, and posts the resources in the appropriate threads (or starts a new one if necessary).

Our aim is to keep the lists useful and clean, and a hundred copies of the same link scattered throughout a thread would just be redundant clutter.

Ron, do you realise how unwelcoming the name "Heaven" is? And how many of the links that are already there don't work? And, finally, how discouraging it can be to see that the last posts are from 2012?

I am keen to use it and post there some Eclipse Phase materials (plus, perhaps, some WFRP) and I believe many other users would do that as well. However, taking into consideration that for the last three years there have not been any activity in Heaven is perhaps the best indicator that the name of that forum should be changed (or at least [Gaming Aids] bit added to it).

Changes to the forum are already under discussion.

If people are reluctant to use it, however, there wouldn't seem to be much point to making those changes.

So what's preferred?  A single managed list of resources, or several different forums to search through in order to find that one that has the item your interested in?

People are reluctant to use it because there is not clear sign "Gaming aids here". Though I agree with several points made here, I think the only change necessary at this point is a simple changing of "Heaven" into "Gaming aids".

Only after that, when you (mods) see the rising interest of people in sending their materials via RTJ, further changes should be discussed.

In other words: a single managed list of resources is fine for me. But certainly not under the present, fancy name.

Having now re-checked Heaven, I note that with the exception of the 'Rpol Discussion Forums', all the links are to external sites.

May I suggest that with the safeguard of moderator-only posting that exists in Heaven, a thread containing links to other Rpol 'games' that benefit the community at large may be possible. You could always include a disclaimer denying any implicit recommendation if that worries you.

This would effectively do what I (and others) need - it would provide a go-to point for anyone wishing to access such Rpol-based resources.

In order to ensure that all such 'games' are listed, I would suggest that anyone can recommend a game to the Heaven forum, not just the GMs (who might not even be aware that the Heaven Forum exists). Within a short space of time, most such 'games' would be listed, and the (annoying?) suggestions to link them would dry up.

Perhaps, too, the existence and purpose of the Heaven forum could be made more prominent, perhaps as a sticky somewhere, increasing its usage and usefulness.

Except that I don't think Heaven really gets updated.  The last update was in 2012, and I know I submitted at least one request in 2014 that doesn't appear to be added.

There have also been "Lurker Lounges" and such in the past where gamers can congregate and exchange ideas, stories, and help each other out.

Since most people probably don't know about such games and helps out there, +1 to this idea.

The forum is one of those which is automatically added to the sticky list of every new user.  If people later choose to remove it from their list, without taking a look to see what it is first, then there is nothing we can do about that.

No, it hasn't been updated recently, which is why the mods have been discussing changes to the forum and its operation.

The thing is just like discusion forums, a person can try and set one up and if it does well, can be made more official.

If I need a text based character sheet, or map design I go to heaven unless the game already has it in it.  And if it is an old hand at Rpol where do you think they got it in the first place.  Now Should Heaven be the place for specially created versions of character sheets made from the standard.. I don't .  But that doesn't mean that they aren't useful for some games.  What if you want to play a published campaign area that has a few extra fields needed for entry of date only needed for that particular campaign.
Secondary Game Aid "Games" would be useful.

But we players have to remember Not to post non OGL published Items in these open forums that is not like data a GM posts in a GM only Thread Group to quickly access data while playing the game.  Which will make another wonderful problem for the Moderators to worry about the more Official they make it the more they will have to worry.

Yes, I'll admit it. I never checked Heaven and de-stickied it after I joined... I thought it was just a place to post dead characters or something. There are some good things there, but dummies like me would never know it. ;-)

Effectively Heaven does the job that needed but doesn't do it very well.

I would be on board with a name change, that fats a +0/5 from me.

However an interactive discussion forum where anyone is free to post gets a whole +2 from me. the problem of repeated postings i don;t think is huge if it gets used propperally. that way the games that start up for labeling portatis e.t.c could just be stickied threads innside of Heaven.

Also if user submitted material is mostly unmoderatted there, although duplication will occur innovation will also.

I like th idea quite a lot.

Which is why we have already discussed changes to it.


It would need to be moderated to ensure that it is used properly.


Unfortunately you will not see a "mostly unmoderated" public forum on RPoL.  Users are, however, free to set up their own forum type boards and operate them as they see fit.

Maybe I totally missed something above--which I am prone to do--but isn't this suggestion about adding a new category to help point people to such independently operating boards?

I think that's a great idea.  A moderated board is great for the masses, but independently operated games are better for more esoteric or specific gaming aids.  As it is, those are hard to track down, so I think a new category would be a nice addition to help those to be found (and allows advertising to be more specific too).

Yes, that was the original suggestion, but I was responding to the post that I quoted, which was asking for a new public forum.

However, regarding the request for a new category, steps were taken to make the independent forums easier to find - some were mentioned in the Game Systems forum (which seemed like an appropriate place  to post links to them, while a thread was also added to the Heaven forum (only two GMs asked to have their specialist forums mentioned there, and one of those boards has since died).

Also note that advertising of these independent forums, if they are open to all, would not be permitted in Wanted - Players (that's why they were listed in Game Systems and Heaven instead), since an open forum doesn't actually recruit players.  So a new category would not help advertising at all.

Good to know!  I think that last point makes the new category an even better candidate for addition.

I just looked at Game Systems forum.  I notice that it doesn't let you link or mention individual games (as a moderated forum), which is actually the exact opposite purpose of having a Gaming Aids category (i.e., to lead people to individual games).

So I think a Gaming Aids category would definitely serve a unique purpose and serve an existent need on RPoL.

In the Game Systems forum, independently owned forums are linked to in the rules thread at the top of the forum.  In Heaven they were included in a thread called (oddly enough) RPOL Discussion Forums.

Note that in both of these cases, forums were only added if the GMs asked for them to be included (not everybody wants their private forum advertised).

I can appreciate this, and I'd be the last person to invade someone's privacy, but I suspect there are a far larger number of GMs who are simply unaware that such facilities exist. If all members are able to recommend the addition of a useful resource, and then the moderators contact the GM to ask if they would like their game to be added, everybody is happy - more resources are added, GMs get their games advertised where people can find them, people can find the resources they need, and the site facilities get used to their full potential. And any GM who doesn't want to be advertised can simply say 'thanks but no thanks'.

GMs were informed of the option, so the "far larger number of GMs who are simply unaware that such facilities exist" would actually be far less than you suspect.

Basically if a GM wanted to change his game to an open forum, he was told that it would stop him advertising in W-P, but we could post a link for him in Game Systems.

Adding a forum list to Heaven was a change that came in after a suggestion and (brief) conversation in a thread in this forum about discussion boards.

I'm a little confused.  I thought our topic was this:  Add a category for the search engine for Gaming Aids -- i.e., that it would be added as a Game Genre to select in the GM Menu and used for the search categories.

Then when people search, they can see the various games that are intended as gaming aids or related forums (which, again, would be selected under the "Game Details" of the "GM Menu" like any other game).  So a search would find these games, find whether they are accepting "players," etc., like any other game.  I don't see the crossover with privacy, or else every category in the search engine would have the same problem.

Selecting the game "genre" in the GM Menu would be the same as adding their own game or opting into the search engine, just like any other game genre.

The topic has drifted somewhat.  Initially it was a request for a new category, but then people started asking for other things, like a forum specifically for game aids.

As I've said, the Heaven forum is currently being assessed as a "one stop" location for finding game aids, and there are changes to it which have not yet been finalised.

Perhaps it might be best to see what those changes are, before deciding that they are less useful than a new category, containing multiple forums to be searched through so that you can find that one specific character sheet that you need.

True, but I guess I was thinking of the sites where there is more interaction, such as players and GMs helping each other--not just a search for material to recycle, though that would fit in as well.

In any case, I guess we'll see...

In reply to Heath (msg # 37):

Game aids- advise

Perhaps, then, the totally unaware GMs is less than I thought - assuming others have been alerted to the options since 2012.

However, your second paragraph suggests that perhaps rather than being uninterested, they simply chose the devil they knew.
I don't understand why the resource 'games' can't be advertised both ways - why the need to choose? If they're producing a resource that benefits the community, can't they be rewarded with a little extra advertising?

I submitted some language links in Heaven in July or so. If I had my own forum with the Gaming Aids category, it's exactly the kind of thing people would expect to find in the game marked as such, rather than waiting on changes to a mod-ran subforum.

I say that not as a criticism of mods, rather a means to let mods focus on important stuff like site features and rules moderation, and let the players focus on stuff to add to their games.

In reply to icosahedron152 (msg # 39):

No GMs have been told that they can't  advertise their forum in the usual way since 2012, no.  Had any GMs actually created new forums since 2012, then they obviously would have been informed of this.

Appreciate the thought, steelsmiter, but it's actually far easier to moderate if we can keep it in one place and control what goes on there ourselves - otherwise we end up having to check multiple quasi-game-forums to ensure the rules are being complied with.

What we hadn't realised (since none of us mods had had a need for char sheets or other resources for some time) was that Heaven hadn't been updated in quite a while ... doesn't time fly !  But as bigbadron says, we're currently looking at that - just working through some admin issues and aiming to get Heaven back up and running soon (and keep it current).  :>
This message was last edited by the user at 14:05, Fri 06 Mar 2015.

Because of the way an open forum (ie: one which anybody can post in without requesting access) is set up, it can not have a "players wanted" flag.  One of the requirements of posting a game ad in the W-P forum is that the "players wanted" flag must be switched on in order for the GM to post a new ad thread.  No flag, no ad.  So technical requirement, not a matter of "not rewarding the GM for posting useful resources".

Apart from that, people who ask to have their game changed to an open forum are telling us, "Hey, I want my game to be treated like your forums!" and none of our forums are advertised in W-P.  Though the lack of a flag prevents us advertising them anyway.

That's why the GMs need to choose how they want their forum to be set up.

GMs who choose to keep their forum closed (ie: only people who have requested (and been granted) access can post, are free to use W-P to advertise.

It's also worth bearing in mind that if you decide to run a forum of either type, then you are responsible for moderating it (or appointing co-GMs to do so).  We will not moderate your privately organised forum for you - meaning that if there is no active GM for an extended period of time, then the forum will be shut down if people start coming to us with complaints about disputes there.

I'm just giving a +1 to the suggestion that a "Gaming Aids" category be provided in the Categories Section (for closed games) for searches, and as an option for the GM to checkmark when setting up the game genre.

I think other suggestions are tending to try to take the idea of gaming aids too far.

Ok, thanks, I see now. Technical issues are technical issues. :)


And will these also be given a place on a list in Heaven?
And will these also be given a place on a list in Heaven?


Sure, that's a given with any game.

Apologies for the double vision in the middle there: quote/post ratio police...

No, they probably wouldn't be listed in Heaven, as they are not a publicly accessible forum.  They are, basically, just like any other private game.

The GM is not providing a service to RPoL, he's providing a service to game members.  While threads may be visible to the general site populace, the GMs of these games are under no obligation to make everything visible.

Which, alas, brings us back to square one. There is currently no simple way for people to search for these resources.


Yet they frequently choose to do so. As do the 'game' members. These are not 'just like any other private game' because they are created not for the private pleasure of the members but by the members' contributions for public benefit.
I think that opinion is divided on the issue of what constitutes a service to Rpol.

You have a ready-made location that could be used as a sharepoint to signpost people to a wider range of resources than are currently available to them.
You are in the process of reviewing that location to make it more user-friendly.
Why not take that extra step? Why not make it more user friendly than you'd planned?

Or just provide a new 'Game-aids' or 'Resources' category as per my original request...
This message was last edited by the user at 22:45, Fri 06 Mar 2015.

Yes, mechanically they are exactly like any other private game.  They have a limited membership who have the ability to post in them, and the option to post an ad in a public advertising forum (which open forums do not).

The addition of the open forums to Heaven was purely a result of their not being able to advertise in the normal location.

I've read this thread with interest, and see that the discussion has gone back and forth about how the people who run "games" such as the one described by Maidenfine COULD potentially "advertise" it on Heaven, or on the "Game Systems" forum, but I confess for the average user of RPOL, unless they think to look in either of those two places, they are highly unlikely to find it...  I really want to find that specific game that Maidenfine mentioned, but I have tried - using the obvious tool of "Browse/Search the Games", and I can't find it!   If there was a category titled "Game Aids", then I can see how it would help narrow down that search rather more rapidly!   Though it would also rely on the owners of games such as the one Maidenfine mentioned recatogorising their game appropriately.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 10:41, Sun 08 Mar 2015.

I also say +1 for a category for game aids, or at least non-games.

I for example have a "game" that is open and is a series of writing "challenges" so isn't really the normal idea of game, nor does it fit a genre because it has no genre.

And happy to announce that Heaven is officially up to date once more.  :>

I've been deputised to help out there, so there should now be at least a couple of pairs of eyes watching out for new submissions.

There's still a couple of outstanding PMs I'm checking into, and I need to go through the links and weed out any dead ones (thank you to those who pointed broken links out for us already).

I've put up a couple of Notice threads which should make navigation a bit easier:

• a General Index, providing an orderly listing of all threads (as they move around a bit as new information is added)
• a Character Sheet Index, listing all characters sheets alphabetically which was moved from the first post in the Character Sheet thread (there's now 60+ character sheets so unless you knew it was there you'd never have found it)

We've also taken on board feedback from this forum and renamed it to Heaven - Gaming Resources to try to address user perception as to what it's all about.  Like it or hate it, you're going to have to forgive us for wanting to keep Heaven in the name - chalk it up to one of those little idiosyncrasies which make RPoL so loveable ... like custom holiday themes.  <grrins>

So a huge thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far and very much looking forward to receiving more in the future.  Please submit content and/or any feedback via Request Access in Heaven.

Cheers ;>

Skald

Thank you for listening!

About the Languages thread  in Heaven...  A lot of them are coming back 404 for me.

Thanks Dara - fixed that.  Mea culpa - I tested then copied the shortened links directly from the private messages - whereas I should have quoted them first to get the full path.  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. ;>

Oh, no worries.  We never do.

whistles innocently

And done.  Heaven - Gaming Resources is, at time of writing, up to date with all private messages, and I've been through all the threads and fixed all the broken links that I was able to (a Bestow Curse {C3} on everyone who decides to completely reorganise their webpage) and deleted those that are no more, have ceased to be etc.

So come and have a look if you've not been there recently, and keep those contributions coming - the usefulness is dependent on what the RPoL community makes of it.  Personally I'm rather fond of the Languages thread ... ;>

You can't miss the place - first thing you'll notice is Utsukushi's head on a spike by the door. Don't forget to wave ...  <grrins>

Looking good. All you need now is a thread in there called 'Resource Games'...

H'mmm ... not really -> the idea is that all the various and varied links should be available in Heaven, rather than us managing links to a plethora (word for the day, folks - use it IC) of other RPoL game threads - ie you can find the off-site link in Heaven rather than having to go to another thread and click through.

But we do have a thread in Heaven that points to specific gaming-related discussion games, if that's what you're after: link to a message in another game

I went through everything that had "discussion" as category or game system or in the title, plus found a few more here and there.  Ignored anything inactive or which hadn't had a post in five months.

Anyone else already has or starts gaming-related discussion threads (or if you're the owner of an inactive one that you're bringing back to life), I'd be happy, keen even, to add to the list.  :>

I already use plethora with obnoxious regularity. Also cognizant.

In reply to Skald (msg # 58):

Ok, this is starting to look like a working compromise. I see at least one resource in there that others have been seeking. However, there are other resources that are missing because the GM has probably been confused about categorizing his/her game and picked a category other than Discussion (which was my original point).

So, if you are a GM, or know a GM, who has a useful resource with an element of discussion in it, get that resource tagged with 'Discussion' and let Skald know. And make yourself a shortcut to that list so you can find other resources as they are added.

Thanks, Skald - a positive result. :)

No problemo.  :>

Out of curiosity, does a game being rated as adult for having adult oriented rule materials prevent it from having the Discussion option?

If it's a private discussion forum where people can only get access after sending an RtJ, then there is nothing stopping it being Adult, subject to the usual adult game rules.

An Adult game could not be converted into an open discussion forum.

Skald, if someone has a discussion game that they want to add to the list in Heaven, what's your preferred protocol? Do they send a RTJ to Heaven, or send an Rmail to the mods with your name in the title, or something else?

RTJ to Heaven, thank ye kindly. :>