Oh, I see.  So the programmer doesn't have to do anything with the sheet, just provide the tools that the GM will use.

Oh, and +0.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:00, Sat 09 Aug 2014.

Yep.

Interestingly I'm a +0 I just provided an idea on how it might be done.

Absolutely -1. Takes all my fun out of character creation ! ;>

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 15):

To get an idea of how difficult this might be, start wire-framing it.  That is, draw a picture of what it might look like (a rough sketch on notepaper works; some people use dedicated wire-framing tools; others use art programs like Photoshop/GIMP/Inkscape), then label every piece and draft a second document that takes each label and explains what that part is and how it works (i.e., what happens when a user clicks that thing).

For every one of those things that pulls up a dialog, also sketch the dialog and label each part of it and accompany that with a description of what each labelled bit does.

For every bit of incorporated knowledge, you will want to explain where that comes from -- so if a number generated by the thing displays a "to hit" bonus, the explanation for how that's derived gets included; if it's because a GM can set it, then also diagram the GM's interface for this with labels and explanations as necessary.

Be sure that your descriptions includes "what happens" when things don't go as planned -- e.g., when users put weird or unexpected data in; when supporting knowledge about bonuses and stuff is not supplied; &c.

And while that all sounds like a lot of work, it isn't even a quarter of the work that actually goes into programming it.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:58, Sat 09 Aug 2014.

Oh, I know. Though this concept is extremely modular, so that makes things a bit easier, but still, I do know enough programming to grasp the complexities.

That is why my suggestion had all of 4 object types, with a ui that consists of new, edit, delete, check for broken formulas, export, and import. Plus some background stuff (like bounds checking, and error checking) and the stuff to plug it into the web.

Honestly starting to wonder if folks are thinking something far more complicated then I was thinking.

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 18):

Maybe, because what you're describing sounds incredibly complex to me.  Show us some wire-frames about how simple it all is and you might sway some of us.

Grid on the left where fields are displayed as they would appear to the players except with gridlines for entering location information, the grid could be much larger but is shown here for demonstration. Each row is a standard text box tall, and each column can be equal width to makes square cells, which can be referenced by letter and number. The menu is right aligned, Blue is the "wireframe"
---
X|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|...
1[grid-----------]New Field
2[grid-----------]Edit Field
3[grid-----------]Delete Field
4[grid-----------]Save Form
5[grid-----------]Export Form
6[grid-----------]Import Fort
...
---

New field: add a new field to the form,
   Select field type
      Text Box: Player enters text, useful for names and descriptions.
      Number Box: Player can enter a number.
      Formula box: The GM sets a formula, capable of taking numbers from other fields.
      Dice box: The GM sets a seed and has random numbers be generated
         like the dice roller. This could be rolled into the formula box
         if done right.
   Name the field, so the players know what the field is for.
   Fill the field as needed, possibly set a default for text and number boxes.
   Select the field's location and size (enter the beginning and ending cells
      on a grid to the left of the menu.
Edit field:
   Select a field and edit it. Just like making a new one except
      the info is already filled in.
Delete field:
   Select a field and delete it.
Save Form:
   Saves and posts the form to the characters in the game. Checks the formulas to make sure none are broken. Warns the GM if one is broken.
Export Form:
   Displays a window with text, hexadecimal, or binary, that can be C&P. Doesn't need to be human understandable, but shorter is better. This string can be treated as text and thus posted in threads like that heaven thread for sharing form designs. Really, just needs to list each field with type, name, whatever is in the field, and the field's location. Checks the formulas to make sure none are broken. Warns the GM if one is broken.
Import Form:
   An entry box to paste the data string that was collected from the Export box and posted. Used to auto-fill the form, at which point the GM can modify things or leave them as is.


---
Not the best, but it should get the idea across.

There are a number of things you could do to build on this for additional functionality as time permits.

Look, would such a thing be helpful?  Yes.  Would everyone use it?  No.

I'm involved with something somewhat close to what your asking for.  It's a bit different, but it is meant as something of a "gaming multi-tool".  All it it for though is just starting and running a unit in Battletech.

We have a couple of different rules sets to go with, a couple of different play styles, and quite a few variables that you can adjust yourself.  There is about 6 different programmers working on it constantly and it receives a new update once or twice a month.

People are constantly needing help figuring the program out.  Others are constantly finding bugs.  Feature requests are a constant influx and inflow.  I'm only handling the new layered graphics for unit icons.

I'm trying to make the point that it isn't nearly as simple as it sounds.  As soon as you have something along the lines of what rule set to use, from then on you have that many extra lines of code to write.  (And if you're doing this in excel, you are going to be using macro, hence coding.)

I'm not a real code monkey, but I've done some stuff in excel.  Every extra option you put in doesn't just add one complexity level.  It exponentially adds complexity levels.

As an example let's take four different character building options (I'm shooting REALLY low here), each has only two different choices.

2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 16

16 Different possible outcomes.  Each needs to be checked out to make sure there isn't any bugs or issues.  Now, let's add just one extra option at just one level.

3 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 24

Now we're up to 24 different outcomes.  Do you see where I'm getting at?  The more "open" the choices, the more difficult it is to set it up.  The more options you give, the more you're going to have to write explaining what to do (that people won't read and will still come to the forum asking for help with).

For all intents and purposes EACH game would need it's own.  Some games might overlap, some have no common thread at all.

Some games are stat rolled, some are point buy, some are point distribute, some are modified archtype, etc.  Each one would need it's own system, they aren't compatible.  Character creation is so different between so many games.  And then you throw in House rules?

Hopefully there are some generators out there for your favorite system.  If not try to make one in excel or open office.  They are easy enough to learn, I've done it and I'm entirely self taught.

Where are you seeing game rules in the above example?
Where are you seeing pictures?
Where are you seeing playstyles?
Rulesets?


Yeah such things could be added later, one at a time even, but they aren't there now. Basically the above is an auto-calculator with nameable text fields.

Yes it is complicated to program, but compared to what you are suggesting, it would be a walk in the park by comparison.

I guess I don't see any promise to what's outlined above beyond a tonne more work down the road.

What's there isn't much different than asking your players to copy paste some text labels and fill in the appropriate numbers in the spots indicated.

And that's already possible and doesn't require extra, unpaid work from anybody.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:59, Sat 09 Aug 2014.

Ok, let use one example.  Initiative.

So how is it calculated?

Is it two attributes added together and then divided?
Is it static with bonuses added from stats?
Is it a separate rolled stat?
Is it static with bonuses added from skill/profession choices?

There is just a few of the methods I know.  And what you're missing is that the more customization you give it, the more people are not going to understand how to use it and you are going to either A) provide them 'customer support' or B) have them just give up and not use it.

Moreover how does the system calculate Feats which are not expressed numerically, and what if the person spells it wrong?

And does the system even HAVE feats.  It's only D20 / D&D that has them that I know of.

You still don't get it.

The programmer doesn't worry about initiative. The GM of the game creates a field, names it "initiative" and fills in whatever formula he wants to use even if it has never been used before by any system.

Then he can save his creation and share it if he wants.

Concept is interesting ... but I'm thinking a massive amount of work for the GM to set up, and there may well be too many different variables to make it viable.

Initiative for example and D&D for preference:

Sounds nice and simple as D20+DEX modifier ... but DEX can be increased/reduced by various spells, poisons, Feats, negative levels, so can vary during play ... basically the GM would have to map every single thing that could possibly affect Initiative to a field and include that in the formula.   Players would then have to note down every single effect as it happened.

And this is just one calc.  Armour Class ... have to factor in every magic item that could affect it.  Combat ... home-brew magic items ... character researched spells ... <runs and hides>

As you say, with portability, it only takes one GM to get it right, and everyone else could borrow that template, but with all the variables, it'd be a beast of a document.

Additionally, the sheet/formula would have to be modified every time a new supplement came out (somebody would buy it and want to use it) with another Feat/spell ... <shudder>

The more complex the game system, the worse it gets.  There may be some very simple game systems where it could work, though.

I don't want something I'd have to work on a formula (or for that matter, have any programming knowledge or the possibility of getting incorrect syntax) for
-1

Except that not everyone does the same things in the same way.  If a GM doesn't use Book X, for example, he might be surprised to discover, a couple of months into his game that all of the character's initiatives were calculated with Book X's "Special Super Initiative Mod".  He just didn't notice that the Initiative field on the sheet is set to increase the score by +1 every time the character gains a level, because it was just another variable in a big-avocado calculation.

So it's more like "it only takes one GM to get it right, for each possible variant on the system".

Which means that the GM would probably end up designing his own custom sheet using his preferred sources and house rules, and that negates the major advantage of the idea.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:01, Sun 10 Aug 2014.

-1, from what I've read here it sounds like a buttload of work for both whoever actually makes the thing and the GMs who try to use it.

In reply to Skald (msg # 29):

Skald, players already have a perfectly good way to handle temporary modifiers, and I have yet to see any of them put it on their permanent sheet. I see no reason to change that (though one could if they wanted too).

Additionally, the sheet doesn't need to be modified to include every spell, feat, and character option. It just needs a few spaces for the player to enter the feats and spells they actually chose, and even then, using DnD as an example, the skills can just have a bonuses box where the player enters a bonus from a feat and then fills in one of the feat boxes with the feat and its desc.

There's no reason a sheet needs to include every tiny little thing when 95% of all that stuff won't even apply anyway. Just put in what is needed.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 30):

When I say formula, I'm talking something similar to what you put in the dice roller box. Not exactly complicated, nor requires any programming and the syntax is simple.

For example a skill that calculates the skill bonus, (though the names would be shortened as the sheet would be clearer in context)

DEX + AcrobaticsRanks + AcrobaticsBonuses

Then the box would show the sum of those three. Not complicated, no programming, and even a child can figure it out.

If you aren't including "every tiny little thing", then how is this better than the currently available sheets?

At the moment, using the simple text based sheets, I just put in the normal value, and make a note of possible variations alongside.

This is sounding more and more like a lot of work, both in the coding of the idea, and the creation of the sheet template, for very little real benefit.

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 31):

I have yet to any game systems that use that many variables for one number, but yes the GM should check the numbers when using it, but generally, it would be the polite thing to post a sheet and say what system it is and what it does that isn't standard. Using a sheet blindly would be the same as telling players to use the third newest sheet posted in the heaven thread without even looking at the heaven thread.

Either way, this is a very simple thing, and everyone keeps adding complexities that are not to be included. The formulas are simple addition subtraction and occasional multiplication, all the same math you are going to be doing anyway referenced by name.

Besides, the best idea is to post a sheet for the standard core game, then each GM modify that according to their houserules. Occasionally, popular supplements could be included and posted as standard plus supplement a. No particular reason to not post what the sheet is doing.

---
As I posted above, it does the common math for you, that's it. Things like your bab, ac, skill bonuses, etc. The player would fill in the base numbers, such as lvl, skill ranks, base attribute/abilities, and bonuses (which if you ask me is better then trying to sort through giant lists of feats/spells/etc just to click a check box anyway)

They're not always simple addition and subtraction. And sometimes people (GMs and players like) don't realize that squaring something is simple multiplication. Syntactically then do we but STBox*STBox/5 (for example) or STBox^2/5. is it really that simple for every application even? As it is, when I get a character sheet, it's in the format I posted on my RTJ, and my player has already done the math. If the changes were to be implemented, I'd have no way of knowing if I've done the correct formatting or any of that businesses.

I still say it's best for automated PDF type sheets to be left to other sites and for links to be provided to those offsite locations as necessary. Then the only work that has to be done is for the player to fill in the box on a sheet someone else has already created. If we were to have extra programming for me to have to make automated sheets I wouldn't even want to <th>run</th> a game, and I avoid games that require such sheets like the plague anyway.

I agree, it would be polite, but I don't think that will happen.  What's "standard and not worth mentioning" to one GM is "bizarre and broken" to another.

I don't see how a sheet with "Attack = [Result of Formula].  Special +Y" is simpler to set up than a basic text one with "Attack = X.  Special +Y".

Especially if the GM is having to check the numbers anyway, in case the GM he took the sheet from is using some odd rules.