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15:38, 5th May 2024 (GMT+0)

Character creator/sheer.

Posted by Bastian
Bastian
member, 19 posts
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 16:47
  • msg #1

Character creator/sheer

Hi, first of all I have to say that I really like this website, it's the best I changed all my games to this website (which aren't many)
Here is the idea, I am not a programmer and so on but how useful or how much would people like it if there were a character generator or standard character sheet for some games that would assign certain changes automatically?
I know that it is possible with MS excel, (I have a SoIaF excel creator) and online there is a great Javascript generator:

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Pathguy.com

You might can talk to him about how to do it. Maybe a link between the two sites? Or just something like the excel sheet that the people still have to type in the numbers but the computer would calculate certain changes automatically.

I would guess that some (more experienced players) are probably not that interested in it. But I (as a relative new player) feel it's sometimes a daunting task to write up a new character sheet because of a lot of micromanagement.

If that's too much, then maybe some pre- designed character sheets so that I don't have to count how often I pressed the space bar.

Thanks for your time.
bigbadron
moderator, 14585 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 17:09

Re: Character creator/sheer

RPoL hosts far too many different systems to make automated sheets/character creators practical.  At best we could produce sheets for just a few of them, which would just lead to other people clamouring for their favoured system  to be included.

Pre-designed text character sheets can be found in the Heaven forum.  link to a message in another game
Utsukushi
member, 1321 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 18:55
  • msg #3

Re: Character creator/sheet

That's silly.  I'm pretty sure if you just set one up for TORG and Underground, you'd have at least .00000001% of the market covered!  Hardly anybody'd be left to complain after that!
pfarland
member, 82 posts
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 19:15
  • msg #4

Re: Character creator/sheet

Not to mention people that use nonstandard character generation.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 651 posts
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 21:51
  • msg #5

Re: Character creator/sheet

I know how this can be done, though not whether it would fit the compatibility requirements.

Make a form creator, each field can be given a name and comes in three types.
Type 1 is a pure fill in the blank. Two subtypes, words, and numbers.
Type 2 is a formula field that can read numbers from other fields and do math to get the answer.
Type 3 is a dice field which rolls dice and provides the answer. (this would be based on a seed that can be altered or set by the GM)

The GM can set each field to be editable by the player or not.

Have each set up save as a text file or something that can be posted in a public thread, and then be editable by each GM for each game.

In this way, the creation work is mostly on the GM and allows the GM to modify the sheets to suit their needs.

---
Not likely to happen but this could work depending on the compatibility of the code required.
steelsmiter
member, 1125 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 21:56
  • msg #6

Re: Character creator/sheet

Personally I'd rather less work on the GM's part.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 652 posts
Thu 7 Aug 2014
at 23:09
  • msg #7

Re: Character creator/sheet

Well, it is more like work on the community's part. A GM can take and use one that was made and saved by someone else, just like finding text ones in the Heaven thread.
cruinne
moderator, 6497 posts
busy crossing the i's
and dotting the t's
Fri 8 Aug 2014
at 00:24

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 5):

That's a lot, lot of work to set up - a very serious development effort.  Just pondering it now... I mean it'd be great for someone to do, but on top of maintaining RPoL it'd be a major undertaking for our unpaid (and underappreciated) developer.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 654 posts
Fri 8 Aug 2014
at 18:58
  • msg #9

Re: Character creator/sheet

One of the sad realities of world.

I don't know enough about web stuff to help unfortunately, but maybe someday when I know more...
pfarland
member, 84 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 03:38
  • msg #10

Re: Character creator/sheet

For many games there are already programs designed for character generation.  I've seen them for Shadowrun, various versions of Traveller, and a few other systems.

Could an all expansive character generator be made?  Sure.  You need to get a programming team together.  Preferably at least two programmers for each system.  They all have to be able to program in the same language and pretty much be experts in the game they are programming for.  Some could do double duty if they know multiple systems, but you are then increasing the time it takes to get a finished product.  You need a few extra programmers to combine all the code.

Oh, and you need all the game books.  Anything that has anything to do with character generation.  And you need to keep some of the programmers on staff, at least the ones for games that are currently published.  And you need to provide new books for them.

Do you see where this is going?  For an idea of how intricate a character generator can get, google Chummer.  It's for Shadowrun.  Just look at all that it needs.  And it's for one version (3rd Edition) There is still three other versions with slightly different (to completely different) rules.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 658 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 07:31
  • msg #11

Re: Character creator/sheet

Now you are getting a little crazy.

My suggestion wasn't some all encompassing program with all the possible feats and abilities and game system restrictions.

My suggestion was something in the middle and generic that would make some of the general math and common stats easier but would still require players to enter things like feat choices and such.

For example, a DnD sheet could be made with the ability score modifiers be automatically calculated and added to the skills, the bab would be automatically calculated by level, etc, but while the sheet might easily calculate how many feat choices are available, the player would have to enter their actual feat selections with short descriptions.
bigbadron
moderator, 14591 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 07:58

Re: Character creator/sheet

And that D&D sheet would be considered a total waste of resources and programming time by a large number of site users: http://beta.rpol.net/charts.php

RPoL is open to ANY system, and all possible variations and house rules, which is why we have made no attempt to program sheets that auto-calculate stuff, simply because - well, which ones do we set up, and which ones do we ignore?

There are already sites (or even programs) out there which do that sort of thing really well, then let you save the sheet into a format that can be imported to RPoL (usually some sort of image file).  When you want to change the sheet, you go to the site/program, make the changes, then save it again before putting it on RPoL.

Why reinvent the wheel, when other places are car manufacturing specialists?
This message was last edited by the user at 08:28, Sat 09 Aug 2014.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 660 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 10:34
  • msg #13

Re: Character creator/sheet

The programmer isn't making a DnD sheet.

The sheet and calculations are editable by the GM rather then being set by the programmer.

The idea is that the programmer isn't making a anything related to any game system, merely an interface for a GM to create a sheet with fields and calculations, then share those custom made sheets which can then be edited by other GMs.

The idea here is to make something that can be easily altered and customized instead of using a pre-made set-up that is static for only the default system it was made for.

The weakness of the idea is that feat selections and similar must be entered manually, while the strength of the idea is that the sheet can be easily made to fit any system with any quirks the GM wants to toss in and will do all the common and basic math behind the scenes.
bigbadron
moderator, 14592 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 10:44

Re: Character creator/sheet

Oh, I see.  So the programmer doesn't have to do anything with the sheet, just provide the tools that the GM will use.

Oh, and +0.
This message was last edited by the user at 11:00, Sat 09 Aug 2014.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 661 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 12:13
  • msg #15

Re: Character creator/sheet

Yep.

Interestingly I'm a +0 I just provided an idea on how it might be done.
Skald
moderator, 564 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 13:30
  • msg #16

Re: Character creator/sheet

Absolutely -1. Takes all my fun out of character creation ! ;>
cruinne
moderator, 6498 posts
what DO you do with
a drunken sailor?
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 14:54

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 15):

To get an idea of how difficult this might be, start wire-framing it.  That is, draw a picture of what it might look like (a rough sketch on notepaper works; some people use dedicated wire-framing tools; others use art programs like Photoshop/GIMP/Inkscape), then label every piece and draft a second document that takes each label and explains what that part is and how it works (i.e., what happens when a user clicks that thing).

For every one of those things that pulls up a dialog, also sketch the dialog and label each part of it and accompany that with a description of what each labelled bit does.

For every bit of incorporated knowledge, you will want to explain where that comes from -- so if a number generated by the thing displays a "to hit" bonus, the explanation for how that's derived gets included; if it's because a GM can set it, then also diagram the GM's interface for this with labels and explanations as necessary.

Be sure that your descriptions includes "what happens" when things don't go as planned -- e.g., when users put weird or unexpected data in; when supporting knowledge about bonuses and stuff is not supplied; &c.

And while that all sounds like a lot of work, it isn't even a quarter of the work that actually goes into programming it.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:58, Sat 09 Aug 2014.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 663 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 15:07
  • msg #18

Re: Character creator/sheet

Oh, I know. Though this concept is extremely modular, so that makes things a bit easier, but still, I do know enough programming to grasp the complexities.

That is why my suggestion had all of 4 object types, with a ui that consists of new, edit, delete, check for broken formulas, export, and import. Plus some background stuff (like bounds checking, and error checking) and the stuff to plug it into the web.

Honestly starting to wonder if folks are thinking something far more complicated then I was thinking.
cruinne
moderator, 6499 posts
what DO you do with
a drunken sailor?
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 15:09

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 18):

Maybe, because what you're describing sounds incredibly complex to me.  Show us some wire-frames about how simple it all is and you might sway some of us.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 664 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 16:39
  • msg #20

Re: Character creator/sheet

Grid on the left where fields are displayed as they would appear to the players except with gridlines for entering location information, the grid could be much larger but is shown here for demonstration. Each row is a standard text box tall, and each column can be equal width to makes square cells, which can be referenced by letter and number. The menu is right aligned, Blue is the "wireframe"
---
X|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|...
1[grid-----------]New Field
2[grid-----------]Edit Field
3[grid-----------]Delete Field
4[grid-----------]Save Form
5[grid-----------]Export Form
6[grid-----------]Import Fort
...
---


New field: add a new field to the form,
   Select field type
      Text Box: Player enters text, useful for names and descriptions.
      Number Box: Player can enter a number.
      Formula box: The GM sets a formula, capable of taking numbers from other fields.
      Dice box: The GM sets a seed and has random numbers be generated
         like the dice roller. This could be rolled into the formula box
         if done right.
   Name the field, so the players know what the field is for.
   Fill the field as needed, possibly set a default for text and number boxes.
   Select the field's location and size (enter the beginning and ending cells
      on a grid to the left of the menu.
Edit field:
   Select a field and edit it. Just like making a new one except
      the info is already filled in.
Delete field:
   Select a field and delete it.
Save Form:
   Saves and posts the form to the characters in the game. Checks the formulas to make sure none are broken. Warns the GM if one is broken.
Export Form:
   Displays a window with text, hexadecimal, or binary, that can be C&P. Doesn't need to be human understandable, but shorter is better. This string can be treated as text and thus posted in threads like that heaven thread for sharing form designs. Really, just needs to list each field with type, name, whatever is in the field, and the field's location. Checks the formulas to make sure none are broken. Warns the GM if one is broken.
Import Form:
   An entry box to paste the data string that was collected from the Export box and posted. Used to auto-fill the form, at which point the GM can modify things or leave them as is.


---
Not the best, but it should get the idea across.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 665 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 16:40
  • msg #21

Re: Character creator/sheet

There are a number of things you could do to build on this for additional functionality as time permits.
pfarland
member, 85 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 16:43
  • msg #22

Re: Character creator/sheet

Look, would such a thing be helpful?  Yes.  Would everyone use it?  No.

I'm involved with something somewhat close to what your asking for.  It's a bit different, but it is meant as something of a "gaming multi-tool".  All it it for though is just starting and running a unit in Battletech.

We have a couple of different rules sets to go with, a couple of different play styles, and quite a few variables that you can adjust yourself.  There is about 6 different programmers working on it constantly and it receives a new update once or twice a month.

People are constantly needing help figuring the program out.  Others are constantly finding bugs.  Feature requests are a constant influx and inflow.  I'm only handling the new layered graphics for unit icons.

I'm trying to make the point that it isn't nearly as simple as it sounds.  As soon as you have something along the lines of what rule set to use, from then on you have that many extra lines of code to write.  (And if you're doing this in excel, you are going to be using macro, hence coding.)

I'm not a real code monkey, but I've done some stuff in excel.  Every extra option you put in doesn't just add one complexity level.  It exponentially adds complexity levels.

As an example let's take four different character building options (I'm shooting REALLY low here), each has only two different choices.

2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 16

16 Different possible outcomes.  Each needs to be checked out to make sure there isn't any bugs or issues.  Now, let's add just one extra option at just one level.

3 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 24

Now we're up to 24 different outcomes.  Do you see where I'm getting at?  The more "open" the choices, the more difficult it is to set it up.  The more options you give, the more you're going to have to write explaining what to do (that people won't read and will still come to the forum asking for help with).

For all intents and purposes EACH game would need it's own.  Some games might overlap, some have no common thread at all.

Some games are stat rolled, some are point buy, some are point distribute, some are modified archtype, etc.  Each one would need it's own system, they aren't compatible.  Character creation is so different between so many games.  And then you throw in House rules?

Hopefully there are some generators out there for your favorite system.  If not try to make one in excel or open office.  They are easy enough to learn, I've done it and I'm entirely self taught.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 666 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 16:49
  • msg #23

Re: Character creator/sheet

Where are you seeing game rules in the above example?
Where are you seeing pictures?
Where are you seeing playstyles?
Rulesets?


Yeah such things could be added later, one at a time even, but they aren't there now. Basically the above is an auto-calculator with nameable text fields.

Yes it is complicated to program, but compared to what you are suggesting, it would be a walk in the park by comparison.
cruinne
moderator, 6500 posts
what DO you do with
a drunken sailor?
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 16:59

Re: Character creator/sheet

I guess I don't see any promise to what's outlined above beyond a tonne more work down the road.

What's there isn't much different than asking your players to copy paste some text labels and fill in the appropriate numbers in the spots indicated.

And that's already possible and doesn't require extra, unpaid work from anybody.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:59, Sat 09 Aug 2014.
pfarland
member, 86 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 17:03
  • msg #25

Re: Character creator/sheet

Ok, let use one example.  Initiative.

So how is it calculated?

Is it two attributes added together and then divided?
Is it static with bonuses added from stats?
Is it a separate rolled stat?
Is it static with bonuses added from skill/profession choices?

There is just a few of the methods I know.  And what you're missing is that the more customization you give it, the more people are not going to understand how to use it and you are going to either A) provide them 'customer support' or B) have them just give up and not use it.
steelsmiter
member, 1135 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 17:15
  • msg #26

Re: Character creator/sheet

pfarland:
Is it static with bonuses added from skill/profession choices?

Moreover how does the system calculate Feats which are not expressed numerically, and what if the person spells it wrong?
pfarland
member, 87 posts
Sat 9 Aug 2014
at 17:56
  • msg #27

Re: Character creator/sheet

And does the system even HAVE feats.  It's only D20 / D&D that has them that I know of.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 667 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 01:23
  • msg #28

Re: Character creator/sheet

You still don't get it.

The programmer doesn't worry about initiative. The GM of the game creates a field, names it "initiative" and fills in whatever formula he wants to use even if it has never been used before by any system.

Then he can save his creation and share it if he wants.
Skald
moderator, 567 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 05:25
  • msg #29

Re: Character creator/sheet

Concept is interesting ... but I'm thinking a massive amount of work for the GM to set up, and there may well be too many different variables to make it viable.

Initiative for example and D&D for preference:

Sounds nice and simple as D20+DEX modifier ... but DEX can be increased/reduced by various spells, poisons, Feats, negative levels, so can vary during play ... basically the GM would have to map every single thing that could possibly affect Initiative to a field and include that in the formula.   Players would then have to note down every single effect as it happened.

And this is just one calc.  Armour Class ... have to factor in every magic item that could affect it.  Combat ... home-brew magic items ... character researched spells ... <runs and hides>

As you say, with portability, it only takes one GM to get it right, and everyone else could borrow that template, but with all the variables, it'd be a beast of a document.

Additionally, the sheet/formula would have to be modified every time a new supplement came out (somebody would buy it and want to use it) with another Feat/spell ... <shudder>

The more complex the game system, the worse it gets.  There may be some very simple game systems where it could work, though.
steelsmiter
member, 1140 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 05:31
  • msg #30

Re: Character creator/sheet

DarkLightHitomi:
The GM of the game creates a field, names it "initiative" and fills in whatever formula he wants to use


I don't want something I'd have to work on a formula (or for that matter, have any programming knowledge or the possibility of getting incorrect syntax) for
-1
bigbadron
moderator, 14593 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 05:57

Re: Character creator/sheet

quote:
it only takes one GM to get it right, and everyone else could borrow that template,

Except that not everyone does the same things in the same way.  If a GM doesn't use Book X, for example, he might be surprised to discover, a couple of months into his game that all of the character's initiatives were calculated with Book X's "Special Super Initiative Mod".  He just didn't notice that the Initiative field on the sheet is set to increase the score by +1 every time the character gains a level, because it was just another variable in a big-avocado calculation.

So it's more like "it only takes one GM to get it right, for each possible variant on the system".

Which means that the GM would probably end up designing his own custom sheet using his preferred sources and house rules, and that negates the major advantage of the idea.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:01, Sun 10 Aug 2014.
Joebobcool456
member, 17 posts
An Orange a day
could help in some way
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 06:45
  • msg #32

Re: Character creator/sheet

-1, from what I've read here it sounds like a buttload of work for both whoever actually makes the thing and the GMs who try to use it.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 668 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 08:39
  • msg #33

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to Skald (msg # 29):

Skald, players already have a perfectly good way to handle temporary modifiers, and I have yet to see any of them put it on their permanent sheet. I see no reason to change that (though one could if they wanted too).

Additionally, the sheet doesn't need to be modified to include every spell, feat, and character option. It just needs a few spaces for the player to enter the feats and spells they actually chose, and even then, using DnD as an example, the skills can just have a bonuses box where the player enters a bonus from a feat and then fills in one of the feat boxes with the feat and its desc.

There's no reason a sheet needs to include every tiny little thing when 95% of all that stuff won't even apply anyway. Just put in what is needed.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 669 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 08:46
  • msg #34

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 30):

When I say formula, I'm talking something similar to what you put in the dice roller box. Not exactly complicated, nor requires any programming and the syntax is simple.

For example a skill that calculates the skill bonus, (though the names would be shortened as the sheet would be clearer in context)

DEX + AcrobaticsRanks + AcrobaticsBonuses

Then the box would show the sum of those three. Not complicated, no programming, and even a child can figure it out.
bigbadron
moderator, 14594 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 08:50

Re: Character creator/sheet

If you aren't including "every tiny little thing", then how is this better than the currently available sheets?

At the moment, using the simple text based sheets, I just put in the normal value, and make a note of possible variations alongside.

This is sounding more and more like a lot of work, both in the coding of the idea, and the creation of the sheet template, for very little real benefit.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 670 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 09:00
  • msg #36

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 31):

I have yet to any game systems that use that many variables for one number, but yes the GM should check the numbers when using it, but generally, it would be the polite thing to post a sheet and say what system it is and what it does that isn't standard. Using a sheet blindly would be the same as telling players to use the third newest sheet posted in the heaven thread without even looking at the heaven thread.

Either way, this is a very simple thing, and everyone keeps adding complexities that are not to be included. The formulas are simple addition subtraction and occasional multiplication, all the same math you are going to be doing anyway referenced by name.

Besides, the best idea is to post a sheet for the standard core game, then each GM modify that according to their houserules. Occasionally, popular supplements could be included and posted as standard plus supplement a. No particular reason to not post what the sheet is doing.

---
As I posted above, it does the common math for you, that's it. Things like your bab, ac, skill bonuses, etc. The player would fill in the base numbers, such as lvl, skill ranks, base attribute/abilities, and bonuses (which if you ask me is better then trying to sort through giant lists of feats/spells/etc just to click a check box anyway)
steelsmiter
member, 1141 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 09:21
  • msg #37

Re: Character creator/sheet

DarkLightHitomi:
Either way, this is a very simple thing, and everyone keeps adding complexities that are not to be included. The formulas are simple addition subtraction and occasional multiplication, all the same math you are going to be doing anyway referenced by name.

They're not always simple addition and subtraction. And sometimes people (GMs and players like) don't realize that squaring something is simple multiplication. Syntactically then do we but STBox*STBox/5 (for example) or STBox^2/5. is it really that simple for every application even? As it is, when I get a character sheet, it's in the format I posted on my RTJ, and my player has already done the math. If the changes were to be implemented, I'd have no way of knowing if I've done the correct formatting or any of that businesses.

I still say it's best for automated PDF type sheets to be left to other sites and for links to be provided to those offsite locations as necessary. Then the only work that has to be done is for the player to fill in the box on a sheet someone else has already created. If we were to have extra programming for me to have to make automated sheets I wouldn't even want to <th>run</th> a game, and I avoid games that require such sheets like the plague anyway.
bigbadron
moderator, 14595 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 09:23

Re: Character creator/sheet

DarkLightHitomi:
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 31):

I have yet to any game systems that use that many variables for one number, but yes the GM should check the numbers when using it, but generally, it would be the polite thing to post a sheet and say what system it is and what it does that isn't standard.

I agree, it would be polite, but I don't think that will happen.  What's "standard and not worth mentioning" to one GM is "bizarre and broken" to another.

I don't see how a sheet with "Attack = [Result of Formula].  Special +Y" is simpler to set up than a basic text one with "Attack = X.  Special +Y".

Especially if the GM is having to check the numbers anyway, in case the GM he took the sheet from is using some odd rules.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 671 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 10:26
  • msg #39

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 37):

Well I would set it up for "STBox*STBox/5" as that would be simpler for everyone involved, except perhaps those that don't know what squaring means (in which case how can they be expected to the math for a regular sheet? Such individuals would find this really helpful, cause then only the GM would need to worry about the math.)

Besides, I would expect the whole thing to be optional, particularly since you have free-form games and such that don't need any math done.

This idea would only have a fill-in-the-blanks thing from the player's perspective.

I certainly don't expect everyone to like it, though I still don't see why everyone keeps attaching more to it then is needed. Of course, I would personally be staying away from a game that requires me to be squaring numbers on my sheet.

But the way I see it, the more math that needs done, the more helpful something like this would be, but also the more likely those involved would like this, as dealing with a lot more crunch is generally liked by those that not only find this type of stuff easier, but also enjoys this type of stuff.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 672 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 10:34
  • msg #40

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 38):

The GM would only have to check the numbers once, though, instead of for every player.

The simplicity is not gained on a single sheet but rather over time, as the GM would do less math and stuff in the long run. Once it is set up, you have much less work. Leveled up?, just increase the level and the skill ranks, and everything based on those are automatically done.

So more work up front, less afterwards. For the GM anyway, the players have less work all the way through as they don't have to do any of the common, the just fill in the blanks and the form gives them the numbers they need. They only have to worry about temp modifiers (which would be no different then current).

Also, a GM probably runs the same system or small selection of systems, so once the GM has the sheet made, they can often just import to any newer games they make, which means one time set-up, which occasional adjustment.
bigbadron
moderator, 14596 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 10:44

Re: Character creator/sheet

quote:
Also, a GM probably runs the same system or small selection of systems

That's a pretty big assumption.  I've seen a lot of GMs (myself included) who run a wide variety of systems.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 673 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 12:59
  • msg #42

Re: Character creator/sheet

I am going off the GMs I know (and I have played with plenty). I am also considering systems to be the same when they are basically the same thing, such as most d20 variants are essentially the same system despite having a dozen or so "different" games. The same sheet would be usable for each with only minor fixes.
bigbadron
moderator, 14597 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 14:18

Re: Character creator/sheet

I'm judging it from the 100 to 150 different RPoL sticky lists I see each week when I'm doing account checks.  Lots of GMs run multiple systems.

As for different systems... in the last few years I've run Runequest, Bushido, Traveller, D&D, Cyberpunk, Amber, GURPS, FATE, Cat, Tunnels & Trolls... so not really much cross-over there.
cruinne
moderator, 6501 posts
what DO you do with
a drunken sailor?
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 14:31

Re: Character creator/sheet

The "formula" box sounds simple at first blush, but it's a giant can of worms.  Essentially, someone's going to have to be responsible for coding that -- and then to use it, GMs have to learn this strange character sheet algebra.  And I say "strange" because if your sheet is geared toward one system, it stays fairly simple, but if the algebra has to be generic enough to be useful to a wide variety of people, it's going to quickly turn into a full scripting language complete with arrays and the whole deal.

For example, I generally play oldschool basic D&D.  Saving Throws, AC, and THAC0 are just three parts of that character sheet, but most players are looking at their sheets for precisely that information -- and none of them are a simple "A + B" type calculation.  They all rely on tables which require multiple look-ups, such as cross-referencing class and level and then adjusting for an ability score and, possibly, class.

That's not a simple calculation, and without it, the sheet would be useless for even the most basic game.

In the same game, most GMs I've seen don't have players roll for their characters' six ability scores in order; they instead roll a pool of results then organize them as they see fit.  I can't imagine how the sheet's algebra would take care of that either.  So it's not good for basic character gen either.

What's above is too simple to be useful.  The reality is too complex for someone to do as anything other than a job.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:33, Sun 10 Aug 2014.
Shannara
moderator, 3467 posts
Whatever you do,
DON'T PANIC!
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 14:53

Re: Character creator/sheet

It sounds to me that you'd be better off creating your 'sheet' in spreadsheet form (Excel for example), and then linking to it.

Anyone who developed one could then share it with interested GMs, possibly via Heaven or by offering them to others in their games.
pfarland
member, 88 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 15:10
  • msg #46

Re: Character creator/sheet

Take it from someone who's done the excel-fu ninja thing.  It can be HORRENDOUSLY complex.  I've given up on almost every single one, because most of the way through it it just got so complex that one little incompatibility (don't read that as an error) earlier in the design crashes the whole thing.

If you have any excel skills, I can send you the sheets.  These are sheets done for single specific things too.  Designing weapons in Traveller, campaign aids for Battletech.  Not something as complex as character generation.

I'm not saying that it CAN'T be done.  It can.  It's just incredibly complex.  And in trying to make it 'multi-function' you end up tossing in more variables.  Usually, the more functions a device has, the less optimally it performs those functions.  Look at a spork or a multi-tool.  You CAN go a different route and achieve standard functionality with a multi-tool, but then you end up with something with as byzantine of a design as a computer (and I'm talking complete design down to circuit boards).

I know you aren't talking about a full fledged character generator, but then the question is "Why".  As a GM, not here, but elsewhere.  I see little use for it otherwise.  If it's a simple math tool, you can come up with it on your own, with MS Office or Open Office with just a couple of web searches to figure out what to do.
steelsmiter
member, 1142 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 15:43
  • msg #47

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 43):

+1 to that message. Not to mention those of us that run indie systems that don't even come close to having anything 'traditional' on the sheet.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 674 posts
Sun 10 Aug 2014
at 17:22
  • msg #48

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 47):

Traditional or not wouldn't have an effect.

___

The idea was never to include a bunch data about systems. I can get that people might not care about simplifying some of the math, but honestly, it was never intended to look up rules or character options, it is purely for simplifying the common math, which may not be equally useful for all systems, but it is simple to do as far as programming goes.

Besides, if you have to go sorting through giant lists of features, wouldn't it be easier to just type up the description and enter the bonus into a "misc bonus" box?

And yeah, some games have tables, usually during creation though and still some calculations could be done. For example, bab, just enter lvl and bab speed, the sheet then will multiply the two for each class, then add, and viola, a total bab automatically, though one stil has to find out which bab to use, but then lvling up has one less thing to do, just increase the level by one that is it.

And these other things are complicated, which is why I never included them to begin with, however, the idea I presented does make a good base for individual functions could be added as they get figured out.

And in any case, I hate having to use external stuff, particularly office documents because they can't be used on my phone, and external websites are additional hoops to go through as a player everytime I want to see the sheet, which requires a fair amount of time of waiting every shift in site, and if it has a bunch flash ads, that triples the wait timex and external sites can't be modified for house rules, etc.

Every option has problems, it is just a matter of deciding which problems are worth dealing with. I personally have a saying "ten minutes now saves you ten hours later" so yeah, I prefer heavier up front work if it makes follow up work easier.
steelsmiter
member, 1143 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Mon 11 Aug 2014
at 01:55
  • msg #49

Re: Character creator/sheet

DarkLightHitomi:
I personally have a saying "ten minutes now saves you ten hours later"

For some of us, the current status quo is 10 minutes now, and the change will be ten hours now.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 675 posts
Mon 11 Aug 2014
at 17:41
  • msg #50

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 49):

The only thing I have suggested that might not be optional is to color the GMs name for posts in games (and that could be made optional). Anything else I suggest, I present with the idea of being optional, hence you can use it if you want or ignore it.
Lunarius
member, 394 posts
eadem mutata resurgo
pax ex tyranny
Mon 11 Aug 2014
at 20:03
  • msg #51

Re: Character creator/sheet

I would not use it and I am actively opposed to anything that would cause more strain on the site.  There are plenty of outside options for character sheet creation; RPoL doesn't need that bloat.

-1.
steelsmiter
member, 1145 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Mon 11 Aug 2014
at 21:30
  • msg #52

Re: Character creator/sheet

DarkLightHitomi:
The only thing I have suggested that might not be optional is to color the GMs name for posts in games (and that could be made optional).

Well, I really do like that idea, optional or otherwise.

quote:
<snip> hence you can use it if you want or ignore it.

I suppose that depends on what games I join now doesn't it?
Tileira
member, 388 posts
Thu 14 Aug 2014
at 13:11
  • msg #53

Re: Character creator/sheet

I have a question:
Why can't you just use an off-site sheet/generator to do this and then fill in the character sheet template your GM gives you?

You've mentioned sources which already do what you're asking. Why build another here? Because typing character sheets is a pain? There are ways and places to host character sheets off-site if you really feel the need to.
Waxahachie
member, 113 posts
The horn that wakes
the sleepers
Thu 14 Aug 2014
at 13:28
  • msg #54

Re: Character creator/sheet

-1

The character sheet is fine as it is, allowing a great variety of people to play a great variety of games flexibly. If someone is too lazy to translate their own character sheet even into simple text or finding the numerous ones out there in the Heaven forum, they probably shouldn't be running a game in the first place.
Shannara
moderator, 3469 posts
Whatever you do,
DON'T PANIC!
Thu 14 Aug 2014
at 14:47

Re: Character creator/sheet

I think the likelihood of jase or the moderators volunteering to create a generic character sheet to be used across a multitude of games is somewhere between none and minuscule-ly thin.

If someone wishes to create one that they'd like to submit for consideration to see how it might be implemented, then that's at least a starting point.

Otherwise, the discussion will likely not progress much.  :-)
Utsukushi
member, 1323 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Thu 14 Aug 2014
at 16:58
  • msg #56

Re: Character creator/sheet

If I understand it right, what DLH is suggesting isn't really a generic character sheet or anything like that; it's more a simple spreadsheet option, for people who want to make their own.  With just a couple of basic spreadsheet operations, like the ability to reference another cell and some automatic addition.  I see it useful in that part mostly for being able to set it up so that, say, when someone adds +1 to their Dexterity, all fifteen of their Dexterity-based Skills go up with it (and maybe their Initiative, and quite possibly their Missile Attack Bonus, and..), instead of me (as player or GM) having to go down the sheet and make sure I don't miss anything.

It seems to me it would have to be kind of an alternate Character Sheet - one that's divided into spreadsheet cells, rather than just an open word processing form, with the cell-lines presumably disappearing from the "View Charactersheet" screen and only appearing in the Edit screen.  With the ability to store a character sheet under the GM name, too, you could just build one and then copy it into the others when you add new players -- as I'm pretty sure people do now.  And, yeah, it probably would be nice if people offered some common systems, like Chill and Nephilim and OKfineyesImeanD&D, to put up in Heaven.

It would be something that the GM would pick when they set up the character sheets in the first place.  Which incidentally, if it keeps working anything like it is now, means that it would be on a sheet-by-sheet-basis -- so if spreadsheets really drive you crazy and the GM wants you to keep your own sheet updated in the game, you can ask them not to for just you even if the other players are all using them.  Or vice-versa.

And since it would just be one-or-the-other... well, I don't know the coding side, but Jase has said to leave that to him.  On the storage side, it doesn't sound like `bloat' to me, because you still have One Character = One Character Sheet.

...I don't know. Given that Spreadsheets are actually the tool-of-choice for character sheet building, just for their formatting differences (eg., being easier to keep lines and columns absolutely straight) -- I would be a +1 on adding a very simple one as an alternative to the open kind we have now.  I have a GM who has worked very hard on embedding the Tables into the character sheets in his game, and it's very nice to look at... but very awkward when you have to edit, because they put in so much extra coding.  I don't know any GMs who have actually built whole sheets into Tables, but I do know some that have wished they could.  Starting from a Spreadsheet, all you'd need would be a way to keep the lines visible in an area.


Um.  Which makes me think, this is a feature that, once implemented, I do see people requesting more and more functionality for over the years, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing -- that strikes me more as `room for growth'; starting simple and gradually letting it shape into what people really want it to do.  Something for Jase to keep in mind, though, probably. grin
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2321 posts
Just an average guy :)
Thu 14 Aug 2014
at 22:03
  • msg #57

Re: Character creator/sheet

Perhaps we could get something like this enabled on the wikipages that we have here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki...erFunctions/Extended if it isn't already?  Or anything from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki...gory:Math_extensions (noting that some are far safer than others)?
jase
admin, 3392 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Sat 16 Aug 2014
at 01:47

Re: Character creator/sheet

Parser functions are very tricky and care has to be taken.  What if someone tries to put in a calculation of "10+hjfd-2" or "2+*4".  Worse is "10/0", or even "echo y|format c:".  You have to take an incredible amount of care that the equation is not only valid but is not insidious.

That said, I was working on something about a year ago.  After it consumed an inordinate amount of time I eventually had to put it on the backburner so concentrate on and finish other things.  I haven't been back to tackle the beast since.
steelsmiter
member, 1151 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Sat 16 Aug 2014
at 01:53
  • msg #59

Re: Character creator/sheet

jase:
Parser functions are very tricky and care has to be taken.  What if someone tries to put in a calculation of "10+hjfd-2" or "2+*4".  Worse is "10/0", or even "echo y|format c:".

That's exactly what I was trying to say back around the 30 something messages range. I just didn't really have some idea how to clarify it. That comes from a knowledge of parsing that is far less complete than say... jase... or any other programmer for that matter. Seriously the most complicated programming I ever did was for the Elder Scrolls Construction Set in which I created a function that would allow a spell to steal the enemy's entire inventory. Better yet, the 'theft' flag wasn't activated.

Anywho that's all on a tangent. It was mind numbing. The same way automated character sheets are.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2328 posts
Just an average guy :)
Mon 18 Aug 2014
at 05:33
  • msg #60

Re: Character creator/sheet

jase:
What if someone tries to put in a calculation of "10+hjfd-2" or "2+*4".  Worse is "10/0", or even "echo y|format c:".
Just use what MediaWiki already has and the latter can't happen.  The MediaWiki #expr parser is basically a big set of PHP defines
https://git.wikimedia.org/blob...c3bf32830ca/Expr.php  If the calculation is gibberish, like 10+hjfd-2 then you'll get gibberish back (or an error, probably you'll get an error).

echo y|format c: isn't a defined PHP command in the MediaWiki file -- it doesn't have one of the magic words in it and as such is just treated like a string.  You'll get back what you put in (unless you check for is_numeric and then you'll either get nothing or whatever error message you have checking for that).

For instance:
/ Character classes
define( 'EXPR_WHITE_CLASS', " \t\r\n" );
define( 'EXPR_NUMBER_CLASS', '0123456789.' );

// Token types
define( 'EXPR_WHITE', 1 );
define( 'EXPR_NUMBER', 2 );
define( 'EXPR_NEGATIVE', 3 );
define( 'EXPR_POSITIVE', 4 );
define( 'EXPR_PLUS', 5 );
define( 'EXPR_MINUS', 6 );
define( 'EXPR_TIMES', 7 );
define( 'EXPR_DIVIDE', 8 );
define( 'EXPR_MOD', 9 );
define( 'EXPR_OPEN', 10 );
define( 'EXPR_CLOSE', 11 );
Skipping a bunch...
   /**
    * Evaluate a mathematical expression
    *
    * The algorithm here is based on the infix to RPN algorithm given in
    * http://montcs.bloomu.edu/~bobmon/Information/RPN/infix2rpn.shtml
    * It's essentially the same as Dijkstra's shunting yard algorithm.
    * @param $expr string
    * @throws ExprError
    * @return string
    */
   function doExpression( $expr ) {
       $operands = array();
       $operators = array();

       # Unescape inequality operators
       $expr = strtr( $expr, array( '&lt;' => '<', '&gt;' => '>',
           '&minus;' => '-', '&#8722;' => '-' ) );

       $p = 0;
       $end = strlen( $expr );
       $expecting = 'expression';
       $name = '';

       while ( $p < $end ) {
           if ( count( $operands ) > $this->maxStackSize || count( $operators ) > $this->maxStackSize ) {
               throw new ExprError( 'stack_exhausted' );
           }
           $char = $expr[$p];
           $char2 = substr( $expr, $p, 2 );

           // Mega if-elseif-else construct
           // Only binary operators fall through for processing at the bottom, the rest
           // finish their processing and continue

           // First the unlimited length classes

           if ( false !== strpos( EXPR_WHITE_CLASS, $char ) ) {
               // Whitespace
               $p += strspn( $expr, EXPR_WHITE_CLASS, $p );
               continue;
           } elseif ( false !== strpos( EXPR_NUMBER_CLASS, $char ) ) {
               // Number
               if ( $expecting != 'expression' ) {
                   throw new ExprError( 'unexpected_number' );
               }

               // Find the rest of it
               $length = strspn( $expr, EXPR_NUMBER_CLASS, $p );
               // Convert it to float, silently removing double decimal points
               $operands[] = floatval( substr( $expr, $p, $length ) );
               $p += $length;
               $expecting = 'operator';
               continue;
           } elseif ( ctype_alpha( $char ) ) {
               // Word
               // Find the rest of it
               $remaining = substr( $expr, $p );
               if ( !preg_match( '/^[A-Za-z]*/', $remaining, $matches ) ) {
                   // This should be unreachable
                   throw new ExprError( 'preg_match_failure' );
               }
               $word = strtolower( $matches[0] );
               $p += strlen( $word );

               // Interpret the word
               if ( !isset( $this->words[$word] ) ) {
                   throw new ExprError( 'unrecognised_word', $word );
               }
               $op = $this->words[$word];
               switch( $op ) {
               // constant
               case EXPR_EXPONENT:
                   if ( $expecting != 'expression' ) {
                       continue;
                   }
                   $operands[] = exp( 1 );
                   $expecting = 'operator';
                   continue 2;
               case EXPR_PI:
                   if ( $expecting != 'expression' ) {
                       throw new ExprError( 'unexpected_number' );
                   }
                   $operands[] = pi();
                   $expecting = 'operator';
                   continue 2;
               // Unary operator
               case EXPR_NOT:
               case EXPR_SINE:
               case EXPR_COSINE:
               case EXPR_TANGENS:
               case EXPR_ARCSINE:
               case EXPR_ARCCOS:
               case EXPR_ARCTAN:
               case EXPR_EXP:
               case EXPR_LN:
               case EXPR_ABS:
               case EXPR_FLOOR:
               case EXPR_TRUNC:
               case EXPR_CEIL:
               case EXPR_SQRT:
                   if ( $expecting != 'expression' ) {
                       throw new ExprError( 'unexpected_operator', $word );
                   }
                   $operators[] = $op;
                   continue 2;
               }
               // Binary operator, fall through
               $name = $word;
           }

           // Next the two-character operators

           elseif ( $char2 == '<=' ) {
And the code continues from there.

Now, I have no idea how RPoL is coded, other than that a large part of it is PHP.  That being said, this PHP document would seem to really do the trick, and it's licensed under the GPLv2 (see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki...sion:ParserFunctions ) which means that if you add/modify the RPoL code with this code you wouldn't have to make the RPoL code public.

Edit: And of course the wiki runs on... whatever it is that it runs on, but you could put the GPLv2 code in there without making the rest of the wiki code public.  I got sidetracked and started thinking of this code applying to all of RPoL instead of just a wiki for a game.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:35, Mon 18 Aug 2014.
steelsmiter
member, 1153 posts
GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
NO FREEFORM!
Mon 18 Aug 2014
at 05:53
  • msg #61

Re: Character creator/sheet

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 60):

I'd like to avoid that like the plague.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was moot, at 06:16, Mon 18 Aug 2014.
Genghis the Hutt
member, 2329 posts
Just an average guy :)
Mon 18 Aug 2014
at 06:09
  • msg #62

Re: Character creator/sheet

Why?  It's no more complicated than most code that runs websites like RPoL and it's not code that the user would ever see.  The user would only see things like:
{{#expr: 1/6 round 5 }} which would give 0.16667
And then the user would only see that in the wiki code if they edited a sheet.  Otherwise they'd presumably see a well-formatted sheet that automatically does some math.  It could look like this when a person views it:
quote:
Character Name, Class Level#
Alignment Size Race
Init: +X; Senses: Darkvision, 90'; Perception +X

Defense

AC: 17 +3 Dex +4 armored coat (Medium armor)
hp: 10 (1d8+2)
Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will +7

Offense
And then when they edit it, they could see something like:
quote:
<b>Character Name, Class Level#</b>
Alignment Size Race
<b>Init:</b> +X; <b>Senses:</b> Darkvision, 90'; Perception +X
<hr><b>Defense</b><hr>
<b>AC:</b> {{#expr: DEX + ARMOR + 10}} {{#expr: DEX}} Dex {{#expr: ARMOR}} armor of some type or whatever
<b>hp:</b> 10 (1d8+2)
Fortitude +5, Reflex {{#expr:DEX + RefBASE}}, Will +7
<hr><b>Offense</b><hr>
Although the thought occurs to me, we'd have to have some way of defining constants that would be limited in scope to particular wikipages.  It looks like games have their own branch of the wiki, wiki.rpol.net/gameNumber/gamePages so they'd have to be defined with respect to that.  I'm not sure off the top of my head how that could be accomplished, but I have some ideas.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:10, Mon 18 Aug 2014.
bigbadron
moderator, 14624 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 18 Aug 2014
at 06:20

Re: Character creator/sheet

Since jase has already said that he looked at this about a year ago, but that it was taking up far too much time, further discussion is probably moot at this point.
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