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14:29, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Hide Characters [NPC/Player]

Posted by Waxahachie
Evil Empryss
member, 1048 posts
Because knowing
is half the battle!
Sat 28 Jun 2014
at 23:57
  • msg #31

Re: Hide Character

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 30):

To be most useful, the person who owns the character should always be able to see it.
Skald
moderator, 541 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 29 Jun 2014
at 05:21
  • msg #32

Re: Hide Character

Ta EE - I've got it now ... we want to hide 'em on the Cast page.

I think it'd be a more elegant solution to limit what appears on the Cast page to just those groups the player is in (and just the GM's details for those in group Z) - then you could put those pending NPCs in group Z.  When you think about it, why should any player be able to see any other PCs that they're not currently in a group with ?

But that's probably a lot more work than the hidden tag.  :>
Evil Empryss
member, 1049 posts
Because knowing
is half the battle!
Sun 29 Jun 2014
at 12:57
  • msg #33

Re: Hide Character

Skald:
When you think about it, why should any player be able to see any other PCs that they're not currently in a group with ?

A lot of my work as a GM is done for me when players see someone on the cast page and say "Ooh!  I want to meet that character!" or "Ooh! would it be cool if that NPC and that PC met and then such-and-such happened?".  What you're suggesting would be like saying just because you play Iron Man you shouldn't get to see what's happening with Thor and Blackwidow in the rest of the movie.  I would say that most players I know want to be able to see everything that they can and do not abuse that knowledge.

Then there's the simple pride in my NPCs that I want to show them off to the players. The whole "look how cool and well-developed a world I've created for you". :p
bigbadron
moderator, 14458 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 29 Jun 2014
at 13:11

Re: Hide Character

Plus there's the whole, "I can't see anybody else in the Cast List except the GM.  Did everybody else quit?" thing.  Not to mention, "I look at the game and there's nobody at all in the Cast List.  I'm not going to apply to a game with no players."
Skald
moderator, 542 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 29 Jun 2014
at 13:15
  • msg #35

Re: Hide Character

Yup - I'm the opposite ... I don't like to read any visible threads that my character isn't in, as I want to be surprised as much as my character when meeting new friends/enemies.  But then I actively avoid finding out what's going to happen in my favourite TV shows too.

However, my wife is just the opposite - she likes to watch things from the point of view of knowing what's going to happen (a life time of murder mystery reading - once you know the twists, you know them, so when next you read that Poirot book it's fun to see what the murderer does and says knowing all along that they're guilty) so I certainly respect the point of view of those who don't feel the same way I do.

Which leaves either the Hide tag or have a GM option to 'display cast in other groups' ... whichever is easier for jase (noting that we don't really like more GM options).  :>
Evil Empryss
member, 1050 posts
Because knowing
is half the battle!
Sun 29 Jun 2014
at 13:16
  • msg #36

Re: Hide Character

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 34):

Ooh, better answer than mine!
Skald
moderator, 543 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sun 29 Jun 2014
at 13:35
  • msg #37

Re: Hide Character

Yeah, didn't see BBR's words of wisdom before I posted ...

So -1 to my suggestion and Hidden tag it is then.  :>

Happy to have helped !  <grrrrrins>
spaceace
member, 213 posts
Do or do not
there is no try
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 15:43
  • msg #38

Re: Hide Character

bigbadron:
"I look at the game and there's nobody at all in the Cast List.  I'm not going to apply to a game with no players."


LOL, I've said that to myself many a time ;>

I do like the idea of hiding NPCs until the critical moment though


jase:
How about if we just hide the character if the tag is set "hide" or "hidden"?


that'd be neat, then you just change the tag when you're ready to introduce the surprise archvillain you've worked so hard on
This message was last edited by the user at 15:46, Wed 02 July 2014.
Utsukushi
member, 1310 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 16:24
  • msg #39

Re: Hide Character

So... you mark them with "Hide" in the tags, and it takes them off the Cast List with no other impact - that's the current intent, right?

I'm a little bit worried.  I know GMs fret a lot about what players glean from the List.  Some of it is totally legitimate, especially for some games; a lot of it is, to my mind, just.. worrying.  The information on the Cast List is pretty deliberately limited.  I see a lot of GMs using this to shut down the Cast List completely to avoid people `finding out stuff', pre-emptively, instead of just hiding, say, an incoming character now and again.

But I like the Cast List.  I use it a lot, just to double-check, well, who everybody is, keep up with the Descriptions, etc. (It also, quietly, holds that Last Chance to Rmail, if you want to hold a connection with a fellow player after a game has been deleted without warning.)  On top of, of course, Ron's points about the possible confusion.  I know this is currently intended as a temporary mask, but I see it being used as more than that.


...Hiding anybody in Group Z, specifically, from the Cast List would allow building NPCs ahead of time, without compromising anything else.  It would possibly allow hiding an incoming PC until they're ready, too, though it would also, if I understand it right, hide the rest of the game from them, and, of course, require that the GM isn't otherwise using Group Z for their own private notes that they don't want the newly-incoming player to see.  Though that really just means using a different Group for that and that's not so bad.  It wouldn't let you keep a fully-built character Hidden from the Cast List while letting them post and otherwise interact with the game, but it does let you avoid the `foreshadowing' that people are complaining about here.

It's a little less flexible, but that's on purpose, because it stops a GM from tagging everyone with Hide and turning off their Cast List completely.
LoreGuard
member, 543 posts
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 16:57
  • msg #40

Re: Hide Character

This would only affect seeing who shows up on the cast list... and would also presumably also not impact any character that was tied to you.

So yes... it would keep you from seeing an upcoming villain or hero around the corner that you haven't met yet.

Note, as it only affects your cast list, it would not stop you from getting to rmail, look at person's description, of someone that you have actually already encountered.

If someone remains hidden, you could still go to a post and click on their name to see their description.  You can click on the info link to get to options to message them or look at other details such as login time or groups.  So if your concern is games that go silent or suddenly deleted without warning, presuming the gm doesn't deleted all the content and players out, you would be able to contact the other players, even if everyone was hidden from the cast list for some reason.
Evil Empryss
member, 1054 posts
Because knowing
is half the battle!
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 17:04
  • msg #41

Re: Hide Character

In reply to Utsukushi (msg # 39):

Lots of people use Group Z to do other things like hold recalcitrant players.
Maidenfine
member, 92 posts
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 19:40
  • msg #42

Re: Hide Character

If someone is causing a big enough problem in your game that you want to exile them to Group Z, why would you not just kick them out altogether?
Evil Empryss
member, 1055 posts
Because knowing
is half the battle!
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 20:20
  • msg #43

Re: Hide Character

*shrug*. I don't do it, but I've seen others write about how they use that group. Just dropping it out there. With the hide tag you wouldn't have to use it if you don't want to, but those of us who do, can. :-)
Utsukushi
member, 1311 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 20:56
  • msg #44

Re: Hide Character

Normally I'm, like, all in favor of anything like that; it's just that, as a player, I enjoy using the Cast List, and if GMs start turning them off with this, I can't.  Even if I want to.
prophacyks
member, 206 posts
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 23:09
  • msg #45

Re: Hide Character

I have to agree with Utsukushi, I am not comfortable having it for regular players also NPC's under GM control fine for the moment but people who can post there shouldn't be a reason why they cannot show up in the cast list. If it comes to being able to be used for regular players also, then I think they shouldn't be able to post until they can be seen on the cast list. Which in the end is what a lurker is anyways.

As for not being able to see all players on the cast list and what you are saying LoreGuard. That all might work for people in the game, which again if they can access the info anyways if someone who is hidden posts. There really isn't a reason for them to be hidden in the cast list in the first place. Also if you are not part of a game yet, and all you have is the cast list to look at and then if people are hidden on it then you are missing info you might need. I know I look at the cast list to find out things before I join a game, sometime the bios hold more info in there then the name gives.

The great thing with RPOL is the fact that we have the ability to have characters in these games and you can post their info. If suddenly you can start hiding them away for whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a point to having that character feature in the first place.
willvr
member, 400 posts
Wed 2 Jul 2014
at 23:20
  • msg #46

Re: Hide Character

Whilst I don't like the hiding of all cast members; until a character makes a first post, I would like other people not knowing. "Oh look, there's a new player in the cast list. We should be friendly to any NPCs who aren't attacking..."

And I need for the new player to be able to see what's going on; so he's got a clear idea of what he's responding to.

In dungeons, I generally have the initial meeting be as though to an NPC; till it's clear they're not coming to blows.
LoreGuard
member, 544 posts
Thu 3 Jul 2014
at 04:01
  • msg #47

Re: Hide Character

If you fear that GMs will use it to close down people's ability to see one another's players descriptions and such, I doubt that would happen... or at a minimum... doubt it would happen often.

At present... current GMs have the capacity to delete any description you might like... and modify and bio lines that you have if they don't want the sharing of that information.  It is within their current rights.  How many GMs are preventing this now?  I imagine it would be a very short list... assuming that anyone is on it.  While this feature might make it more convenient to hide some of this information, I still doubt we would see it used that way in all but the rarest of instances.

Maybe someone who is running a game under a premise where all they players interact, but do so as if they were all in solo games, where the GM acts as the intermediary between all the characters.  Then technically hiding the characters might make some 'odd' sense.  Otherwise, if the GM is of the opinion that hiding All of the players from one another is going to be standard operating procedure throughout the game, and you are one who like to go to it to reference the other players descriptions and such, do you really think you are likely to be attracted to the GMs gaming style in general?

Basically, it is similar to a PL.  The GM decides to hide a piece of information from the players, until they are exposed to them.  Did adding the option for PLs destroy the continuity of games across the spectrum because not everyone saw everything that was in the post?
jase
admin, 3369 posts
Cogito, ergo procuro.
Carpe stultus!
Thu 3 Jul 2014
at 10:14

Re: Hide Character

There currently is a way to hide NPCs from players -- don't add them in until the last minute.  I believe this is what the OP is trying to avoid.

I see this as a request to give GMs greater flexibility and control over their game.  While I understand the concerns I don't think players should be dictating what control GMs have over their game (within reason, of course).

There's so many ways for GMs to dupe, deceive and just downright abuse players that I personally can't see how hiding an NPC from the cast list even registers on the scale.
willvr
member, 402 posts
Thu 3 Jul 2014
at 10:48
  • msg #49

Re: Hide Character

I think it's also a matter of trust. If you don't feel you can trust that GM to not take advantage of their power? Don't play with them. I won't play under a GM I don't trust; because what's the point? There are just so many ways a GM can make your characters life hell; and if you don't trust them to only do it to increase enjoyment in the game, or at least for plot purposes, there's no point in playing with them. Some GM/player teams just don't work; even amongst friends. When you're dealing with a whole bunch of players you don't know, the chances of occasionally running into a GM you can't abide as a GM, or you can't abide in your game, increases.
Skald
moderator, 545 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Thu 3 Jul 2014
at 14:57
  • msg #50

Re: Hide Character

Like Utsukushi I use the Cast list for descriptions (saves scrolling up and down posts to find that elusive last one I need now), but if the alternative for those GMs who want this is to have to prepare everything offline and only add those chars in at the last minute, then the effect is the same either way, so I won't begrudge them the use of the proposed Hidden tag to make their lives easier.

But I won't use it myself, so I'm a firm +0.  :>

Mind you, sometimes a bit of metagaming doesn't go astray - some groups I've played with it really helps to distinguish between NPC and new PC:

GM: "You see a dark cloaked figure coming down the forest path towards you ..."

PCs: "Fireball !  Missile weapons !  Charge !"

GM: OOC: "Sorry Fred, you lost another new character.  Care to try for a third time ?  You might get lucky."
Heath
member, 2751 posts
If my opinion changes,
The answer is still 42.
Thu 3 Jul 2014
at 16:37
  • msg #51

Re: Hide Character

In reply to jase (msg # 48):

I agree with jase.  For me, I just add NPCs with a "player" tag (with me, the GM, as the owner) if I don't want them to know the character is an NPC.  I've never had a problem with that, and that might avoid the instant attack of an incoming PC/NPC.  And the tag can be changed later.

I modify the player list with NPCs and PCs frequently enough (and often have PCs on hold for a month or more) that I've never had an immediacy concern either.

In one game, I created a secret NPC (i.e., tagged as a "player") and then never needed to introduce him.  That was about 9 years ago, and he is still listed as a player but has never come into the game.  I also tend to create a cast of potential characters (NPC or PC) well ahead of introducing them, which also would put off the metagaming aspect a little bit.
Utsukushi
member, 1312 posts
I should really stay out
of this, I know...but...
Thu 3 Jul 2014
at 17:02
  • msg #52

Re: Hide Character

jase:
There's so many ways for GMs to dupe, deceive and just downright abuse players that I personally can't see how hiding an NPC from the cast list even registers on the scale.

Will it only apply for NPCs?  I have no problem with that at all; they can hide all the NPCs if they want.  It's having all the PCs hidden that I wouldn't like, and that I'm worried a lot of GMs will do because of.. well, as I've said, just the way they worry about what players are `finding out'.  There's a certain psychology when you're setting things up that, if you're trying to keep anything secret, pushes you to keep everything secret.  It's not a rational thing.

And it's not the GMs duping, deceiving, or abusing us that bothers me, because that's all wonderful.  It's just the Cast List.  I like it, I use it, and it has a lot of reasons to be there.  LoreGuard is right that a lot of its functions can now be reached through back-doors (especially alongside people's posts), but Skald is totally, totally right that that is a great deal less convenient than the Cast List.  There's a reason the Cast List is one of our Dice Links.  Those are important things.

willvr:
I think it's also a matter of trust. If you don't feel you can trust that GM to not take advantage of their power?

You could just as well say GMs shouldn't allow players that they don't trust not to metagame like that.  Except, here's the thing -- I don't think such GMs would be abusing their power.  I think they would be using this power in a totally reasonable way, that would remove an RPoL feature that I like.  What it really comes down to is, when I read the description of this feature, as we're talking about implementing it, I immediately thought, "Hey, cool, I could Hide everybody, and then no one could see anyth-- oh, hey, wait."  Because I'm totally susceptible to that super-secretive psychology that GMs fall into, and I know I'm not the only one.

I don't have any problem at all with this feature in its intended use: Hiding a not-yet-introduced NPC is something I would probably use.  Hiding an incoming PC certainly has its place.  (Though as I understand the tags now, I do believe there is nothing stopping you from tagging a character owned by a player as an NPC, or vice-versa, if you just want to sow some metagame-confusion.)

I just don't see anything in it that stops a GM from slapping "Hide" on everybody and turning the whole Cast List off, and that does bother me, because... well, I think I've already mentioned this, but I like and use the Cast List.

If it only applies to NPCs, then that solves my worry, though it doesn't do everything people are asking for it to do (specifically, also hiding a not-yet-introduced PC).  Group Z would have, but I can see where it conflicts with other possible uses of Group Z, so maybe that's not so good.

Is there a way to make it only apply to a character until they have a post?  That should mean they've been "Revealed" anyway.  So you could totally set up an NPC, or even an incoming PC, without giving them away in the Cast List... the GM can introduce them in a descriptive post... people can react naturally... and they don't show up on the List (as PC or NPC) until there is a direct post from that character? (Even if that direct post turns out to be, "Oof.  Erk.  Arrrrrrrrrgh...thud")  An incoming PC would have to hold off on posting even in an OOC thread, but if you're trying to hide them until after they're introduced, they have to do that anyway.

I'm not sure about the programming, but that seems to me to do everything people want to do here, without circumventing the Cast List as-a-feature.

I'm a +1 if we can give it some kind of limit like that, but, for what it's worth, a -1 without it.
Silverfoxdmt73
member, 210 posts
Long time gamer
Thu 31 Jul 2014
at 11:47
  • msg #53

Re: Hide NPC

That is exactly what I've been looking to happen.. Cool.
bucket
member, 26 posts
Thu 31 Jul 2014
at 22:02
  • msg #54

Re: Hide NPC

+1 more, this would be very useful
Tileira
member, 371 posts
Fri 1 Aug 2014
at 11:37
  • msg #55

Re: Hide NPC

+1 this would be useful for any games where the GMs wants to pre-prepare NPCs, provide mystery over a new PC, or run a very paranoid game.
If you could also use it to hide characters whose players have dropped out or gone AWOL, or 'died' for a dramatic return as someone else said.

We currently have one section of the cast list for Players/tagged characters and one for NPCs. It might be possible to add a third section for Hidden characters which is only visible to the GM.
A Hidden player would be able to edit their description and such, but not see it on the cast list. I don't think it would be necessary to enable a Hidden player to see it.
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