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22:53, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

Posted by W0LF0S
W0LF0S
member, 72 posts
Fri 5 Feb 2016
at 23:08
  • msg #1

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

TL;DR  I created a modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder.  I'd like to play it in a game.

Link to Class Revisions: https://docs.google.com/docume...NcI/edit?usp=sharing
Link to Class Outline: https://docs.google.com/spread...tT4/edit?usp=sharing

I've been tweaking and playing around with the Gunslinger class for Pathfinder for a couple of years now.  I allowed one into a game two years, because the vision of the class is super cool.  I also had no issues introducing firearms into my homebrew world.  However, it quickly became apparent to me that the class was horridly designed.  Not that it's overpowered (Touch AC is the common line here) or anything.  I think the class features and other things are all poorly done.  When I look at the original class, I see a weird mish-mash of the Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Ranger, and Alchemist thrown together.  The whole thing is just plain messy.    My vision is something more akin to a Rogue.  You know?  Spaghetti western B.A. type of thing.  Also, they have a bit of mad genius in them given that they are the pioneers of the gunpowder world.  So, a lot of what I've done in terms of redesign is very much inspired by the Core Rogue in terms of how to create a set of interesting class features.  Now, it's been two years of tinkering and fiddling and playtesting.  I've now had two of my IRL players try my reworks and really enjoy them.  I would now like the opportunity to play it myself if anyone is willing to let me into their game!

So, what have I done to the class?  Let's start from the top.  First, the class was adjusted to the d8 HD and the accompanying +3/4 BAB progression.  It's definitely a martially inclined class.  Yet given how dominating it can be with its ability to focus on Dexterity and that it fights at range most of the time, I just don't see how it can be fair as a full BAB class.  Additionally, the class no longer has the ability to roll against Touch AC at range.  Touch AC is an old mechanic meant to help Wizards land attack styled spells while having low BAB.  It's inclusion for a full BAB class is just plain bad.  Additionally, there's no historical justification for this.  Crossbows arguably had more penetrating power than early firearms, so why don't they do this?  Crossbows are the reason that plate armor had to be stupidly thick or just plain not used, not firearms.  Also, it irks me that rapiers are a staple weapon while firearms are ignored.  Rapiers were developed right alongside firearms.  Anyway, getting sidetracked.  In short, full BAB, d10 HD, and Touch AC targetting are all out.

Next up, class skills need some adjusting.  Disable Device, Escape Artist, and Knowledge of Dungeoneering are all added to the class skill list.  Heal was removed as was Bluff.  The theme of a knowledgeable and survivable individual is more suited with this set of class skills I think.  Bluff is potentially arguable, and I understand the argument for a Mysterious Stranger archetype for sure.  For a vanilla class though, I don't think it's necessary.  The number of Skill Ranks per level is unchanged.  Most Gunslingers are only going to have a handful of useful skills given their need to focus on Gunsmithing, and I think this is well represented with a slightly limited pool of Skill Ranks.

Then, there's weapon proficiency.  It never really made sense that Gunslingers had so many weapons options.  If they're wielding the "future of weapons" already, why would they bother to master all martial weapons?  I grant that they would definitely have need of some weapons, so this list resembles something a Rogue or Bard list of proficiencies.  It leaves the door open for Sword and Pistol style of fighting as well for early levels when gold is scarce as well as Weapon Finesse-able weapons.  It's a solid list in my opinion.

Gunsmithing is the first real class feature to come up.  This version keeps the cheap ammo crafting and adds the Gunslinger's level to craft checks for later firearms crafting.  This design is in keeping with Core craft rules as well as being part of a partial overhaul of firearms themselves.  I've introduced a few new weapon properties, gold coasts, and time tables to help reflect the complexity of the task as well as the craftsmanship that is possible for a master smith.  I won't go over all the particulars here, but if anyone has a question, I'll answer those.

And now we get to the unique stuff.  Take Aim is a new class future of my own design.  It's meant to crutch up the class's low attack bonus since it will now be targeting regular AC and only have 3/4 BAB progression.  It also creates a question for the player.  Do I move to get better positioning or do I stand still to be more accurate?  This is a realistic question with firearms, and I think this class feature adequately simulates that little problem.  It scales as well starting at level 5 and with any increases to Wisdom that player's acquire.

Next is where my Rogue inspiration is really apparent.  I've taken the idea of Rogue Talents and combined it with the idea of Deeds from the original class.  Savvy readers will note that Grit is nowhere to be seen.  That's on purpose.  Grit is gone completely from the class.  It's a cool idea and might make a reappearance as a Feat, Deed, or Archetype class feature, but it is not part of the vanilla class.  Instead, Deeds all function similar to Rogue Talents.  You have a big selection to choose from at even levels, and the pool gets bigger and more powerful at level 10.  Many of them are heavily skewed towards a particular type of firearm as well.  The utility shots will be useful for pistol wielders, the Vital Strike style deeds will be very interesting to whoever's using a two-handed firarm, and the bayonet enhancers will be quite enticing for those using scatterguns.  It's a long list, so I'll take questions as they come for them.

Continuing onward, I have left the Nimble class feature in place.  It's identical to the previous version with some rewording to make things clearer.  I couldn't think of a better class feature, and the class already has the problem of never getting out of light armor.  Additionally, this lets the player feel less worried going into a melee with the Sword and Pistol style or with a scattergun.

Next up is Gun Training.  Much like their Fighter specialist brethren, they get a flat damage bonus that scales with level.  It's to point to why this is a thing.  They learn more vital spots?  Get a bit better at mixing powder?  However you flavor that, I think this is a necessary addition for the class.  Here, they actually receive the bonus sooner than normal because the Precise weapon property is just so darned expensive.

Then there's the capstone ability for the class.  It's literally a carbon copy of a thing that several other classes can do already.  I really don't foresee an issue with this.

New weapon properties!  What are they?  Capacity, Advanced, Custom, and Precise.  This is where things are much more experimental.  Capacity was reworded to allow a player to reload their firearm's entire capacity with one reload action.  I'll take this opportunity to note that this list of changes is intended make use of ONLY Early Firearms.  No Advanced Firearms like the Rifle or Revolver are intended to be used with this class.  Advanced is now a property of particularly well made early firearms.  Custom is a similar property one step above Battered and one step below Advanced.  Precise is basically Composite for firearms.  The difference being that Wisdom is the governing attribute for the damage bonus.  This is the biggest experiment to be done yet.  Another idea is for something like "Recoil" where the player's Constitution plays a role in things, but that seems overly complicated.  This was the simplest way that I could come up with to do things while keeping firearms competitive in terms of damage as well as thematic.  If you want to discuss the math, we can produce the evidence that this is a necessary property to include in order for Gunslingers to be competitive.

The last part of this change is a list of Gunslinger associated feats.  Most of them are remakes of old deeds and feats along with a handful of fresh ideas.  I want to expand this list with time.  Additionally, I also want to do reworks of the Paizo archetypes.  Pistolero, Mysterious Stranger, and Gun Tank are all on my list to for reworks in the near future.  Musket Master doesn't seem to be needed as many of the vanilla Deeds and features cover what the old archetype presented.  I would think that something else would be a better idea.  Perhaps something based on the Experimental Gunslinger class that Gnomes have?  I just have very basic thoughts in that area at the moment.
This message was last updated by the user at 23:20, Fri 05 Feb 2016.
TJCid
member, 63 posts
27 years of age
Sat 6 Feb 2016
at 00:30
  • msg #2

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

And you are posting all of this here because...why?

You want someone to host you a game using your new gunslinger or something?
W0LF0S
member, 73 posts
Sat 6 Feb 2016
at 02:16
  • msg #3

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

As per the TL;DR I put at the absolute top of the post.  Yes.  I figured anyone that would consider the idea would be curious as to the nature of the changes, so I included them.

What's confusing?
Sleeping Darkness
member, 47 posts
Once upon a time...
Sat 6 Feb 2016
at 07:57
  • msg #4

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

Almost everything about the idea, honestly. To be clear, you felt that the gunslinger class was TOO powerful? Not...not in desperate need of expanded utility and a stronger, less resource-intensive presence in combat? The need for alchemical cartridges and Greater Reliable enchantments on your guns just to make a full attack - at close range - and with awful scaling to boot...

I mean, I agree that gun mechanics are bad, but they're bad in the wrong direction, and making a whole class based around "fixing" them in its specific case is like making a class that gets its legs cut off at level 1 and all its class features are based around slowly regrowing them over time. That's what the Gunslinger is ALREADY. This is - well, it's sort of a stumble sideways more than a step down, but it's not addressing the essential problem, where you're spending significant chunks of wealth-by-level just on staying loaded and you have to sink your entire build into being more or less as good as a ranger at shooting things.

And you want to PLAY this?

EDIT: On full review of the class, you've basically got a 3/4ths BAB archer whose bow is ridiculously expensive and difficult to use. So you want to play a modified gunslinger that doesn't target touch AC, fair enough, open question here: are you averse to actually just using the rules for archery with some tweaks and calling it a gun? Like, bullets cost what arrows cost, you add your Wisdom to damage instead of Strength, you reload as fast as you can shoot, et cetera. Taking a martial class down to d8 and 3/4ths BAB without at least 6th-level spellcasting or an equivalent across-the-board boost in damage and utility (look at the unchained rogue, the magus, the stalker, the psychic warrior, the inquisitor, et cetera), to be blunt, unreasonable, and all the fuss and muss around guns is centered on their ability to hit touch AC. Once you take that away, they're incredibly poor bows.

Would taking that into account and reconfiguring to get something more equitable be an acceptable compromise?
This message was last edited by the user at 08:11, Sat 06 Feb 2016.
xanthfan
member, 3 posts
Sat 6 Feb 2016
at 09:01
  • msg #5

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

I think this also about getting rid of Grit, which feels too much like magic for some people.
W0LF0S
member, 74 posts
Sat 6 Feb 2016
at 22:43
  • msg #6

Modified Gunslinger for Pathfinder Game - No Touch AC!

No, I did not think the class was too powerful.  I thought it was messy and poorly designed.  Mathematically, you could actually argue that the original class was under-powered.  As you correctly point out, Sleeping Darkness, the class had a very high gold cost to even be viable.

The wealth investment for this version of the class to be "viable" is far, far lower.  A not obvious point that may be overlooked is that misfires are no longer a thing, so that helps with the wealth investment by not needing to tote around multiple copies of a weapon.

And yes, I do want to play this.

"Are you averse to actually just using the rules for archery with some tweaks and calling it a gun?"  I think I am.  I think that guns SHOULD feel very different from bows.  Going over the Deeds and the implied math, I think you're wrong that the class is in need of any more added damage or utility.  The class is able to take certain combat feats early, gain fighter-like abilities like Weapon Specialization or ignoring DR, can use combat maneuvers at range, and several kind of unique "utility shots."  There is a build within this modified class to enable Dual Pistol wielding with full attacks a thing.  And it only requires one Deed for the class to start the feat investment to enable this.

I'm very open to critique and discussing specifics.  Part of the reason for wanting to play this class is to see the ideas in action.  I've had two players in my IRL group use past versions of my revisions and gotten very useful feedback.  The first player used a Scatter weapon and the second went for a Sword and Pistol style.  I plan to test out how the class works with a musket this time around.

@Xanthfan: Getting rid of Grid was not really a priority so much as a consequence of reconfiguring how Deeds were acquired.  Since they now function like Rogue Talents, there didn't seem to be a need for Grit.

I'll also say that I'm completely aware this class isn't on par with a Ranger or any other top-tier class.  I don't necessarily think it needs to be, but I do want it to have its own identity.  I'm hoping these adjustments are all steps towards that goal.  I've done lots of math, simulations, and character builds to see some of the effects of these ideas.  A lot of them are very nearly good enough to me.  Once I reach that spot, my plan is to begin the work on class archetypes.

I realize that many GM's are uncomfortable with "custom classes" intruding into their games.  I hope that by posting here in Wanted-GM and by being open about things, I can find someone willing to let me play out my ideas.
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