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10:47, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Best system for epic boss fights?

Posted by billiam
billiam
member, 58 posts
Sat 19 Aug 2017
at 00:23
  • msg #1

Best system for epic boss fights?

Alright weigh in your opinions and why you hold them. If you had a game built around massive boss fights. I gave been let down too many times in game systems either not being challenging or be a battle of rolling and rolling. I know a big part is encounter building but is there a system that does it better than others?
This message was last updated by a moderator, as it was the wrong forum, at 04:13, Sat 19 Aug 2017.
Paradeaddiction
member, 6 posts
Sat 19 Aug 2017
at 00:43
  • msg #2

Best system for epic boss fights?

Well, there's Dungeon World. For boss battles its less about rolling and rolling and more about finding out a weakness and working together to get into a position to take advantage of it. I direct you to the 16 HP dragon example. http://www.latorra.org/2012/05/15/a-16-hp-dragon/
GreyGriffin
member, 137 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Sat 19 Aug 2017
at 00:58
  • msg #3

Best system for epic boss fights?

I'm gonna take the unpopular opinion here and bank on Torchbearers.  The Conflict system creates tension, and allows for some mechanical juggling, encourages teamwork, and allows for some interesting alternative stakes and outcomes than "win or die."  It also is abstract enough to use in noncombat conflicts such as debates, chases, exorcisms, or climbing hazardous impersonal peaks - indeed, it's designed for it.

Still, there is some strategy involved, especially if there are multiple combatants on either side.  Timing, teamwork, and forethought go a long way, as much or more than uber stats.

Of course, it is fairly abstract, so it doesn't lend itself to tight move-by-move tactical combat, and it can be "swingy," tanking your whole group's Disposition if you get sucker punched by a bad match-up.

If you're playing Torchbearer, your PCs are also probably pretty banged up, so they might have a hard time "bringing it" in what could be a traditional boss fight.
bythenumbers
member, 15 posts
Sat 19 Aug 2017
at 20:31
  • msg #4

Best system for epic boss fights?

In reply to GreyGriffin (msg # 3):

Mythender seems built around the concept, flavor-wise and Exalted 3rd's combat seems interesting if you're looking for a serious battle-to-the-death.

I've run some pretty interesting battles in Cortex Plus, which can become pretty epic if players (and the GM) focus on asset creation.

Is there a particular system that has disappointed you, or one that seemed close to the mark?
engine
member, 394 posts
Sat 19 Aug 2017
at 21:00
  • msg #5

Best system for epic boss fights?

What are the hallmarks of an epic boss fight, outside of an RPG?
rgrnwood
member, 42 posts
Sun 20 Aug 2017
at 12:42
  • msg #6

Best system for epic boss fights?

I think engine is in to something. On my experience 90% of the epicness of boss fight comes from story telling and encounter design elements rather than mechanics. The only mechanical thing that makes boss fights epic is when they have some ability that messes with the players expectations of how the game works.

Some examples of mechanics making a boss fight epic:

Ornstein and Smough from Dark Souls. You fight to enemies with two very different fighting styles but when you kill one of them, the remaining one antenna all the powers and abilities of their fallen comrade.

Taking away an ability that you've established as always being available, like no one can heal in any way during the boss fight.

I had a third one but I lost it. But I think as far as systems go, you need something that gives you lots of mechanics that are easy to digest/learn so you can introduce a new mechanic right before (or during!) A boss fight.
rgrnwood
member, 43 posts
Sun 20 Aug 2017
at 13:13
  • msg #7

Best system for epic boss fights?

Hallmarks of epic boss fights outside of RPGs (in my experience and observation):

1) Player investment: if the player personally feels some kind of emotion about defeating the boss, then every other method of making it epic works better. Shadow of the Collosus made you feel sad and regretful, wishing you didn't have to kill the boss. Other games make bosses so hard that you as a player may it one of your life goals to defeat them (see Dark Souls).

2) Character investment. If your character has RELATABLE reasons to care about defeating a boss, then the encounter is more epic. I was a fan of Sonic the hedgehog back in the early and mid 90s. Throughout the series the hero and the villian fight over gems that can grant superpowers temporarily (think Dragonball Z). In the last 25% of that story line they introduced similar gems that are 100 times the size of the ones you've been fighting over for years and a gen that is 1000 times the size. They never explicitly state that these are more powerful, they leave it up to the player to make that assumption. At the final showdown the boss has that biggest gem. He's not trying to destroy the world, he's just trying to have the power to run his many machines. Is it cliche? Yes. Did it work for the player? Yes. They built a history of what is being done over with their players so that when they raised the stakes the players could relate on an instinctive level (if I've done all that awesome stuff with these tiny gems then what could the boss do with those giant ones if he learned how to use them?).

3) History with the boss: This is why recurring villians can work so well. Solid Snake and Liquid Snake fighting at the end of Metal Gear solid 4 is so epic: you've fought this boss and been pushed to your limits by then multiple times over the course of many years and this is the final show down. This is also why Nemisis from resident evil is so epic: you see his power displayed multiple times and have to run for your life from him multiple times before you actually fight him.

This is turning into a wall of text so the other events I can think of are: arena design, encounter design, foreshadowing, bosses having abilities to change the arena, bosses having abilities that are unavailable to the players, removing abilities from players that they assumed they would always have, plot significance of the boss fight, progressively raising the stakes, progressively fighting in more and more epic locales leading up to the boss fight, puzzle bosses (not just bullet sponges), perfect difficult level (push players to their limits but not being their limits)...I had a few more but I lost them. Point is, most of these are either storytelling elements or not tired to specific mechanics.

Oh, and D&D is designed for boss fights. No one-hit kills like they can get in Savage Worlds, plenty of mechanics to toy with, plenty of locales and enemies to choose from, players aren't too frail to make a couple mistakes or have a few bad rolls during a boss fight, etc.
engine
member, 396 posts
Mon 21 Aug 2017
at 15:31
  • msg #8

Best system for epic boss fights?

rgrnwood:
1) Player investment: if the player personally feels some kind of emotion about defeating the boss, then every other method of making it epic works better.
I use the term "buy-in." It's a combination of trust, engagement, excitement and other things, and while it's hugely important, it's not something that is easily brought about by a set of rules. Any reasonably well-made system seems able to engage players, so it seems less about the system and more about the group dynamic.

rgrnwood:
2) Character investment. If your character has RELATABLE reasons to care about defeating a boss, then the encounter is more epic.
That makes sense. I think this is mostly a factor of player buy-in. Fights in games are really just decorative hoops to jump through to get to the next bit (even if that's just the credits scene and a new achievement), but we are more likely to want to jump if there seems to be a reason for it inside the game.

rgrnwood:
Is it cliche? Yes. Did it work for the player? Yes.
Well, cliche certain can work. That's why it becomes cliche. Bought-in players can lap up a lot of cliche, but everyone has a breaking point where their eyes just start to roll.

rgrnwood:
3) History with the boss: This is why recurring villians can work so well.
This begins to touch on rules, because not all games handle recurring villains well. They're a common trope in stories because it's generally easy for an author to contrive things to let the enemy escape, or to have yet another henchman standing in the path on the way to the enemy. In video games, boss escapes tend to be a tad contrived, often featuring a cut-scene in which the player can't do anything, and which sort of invalidates the skill they might have brought to bear on the fight.

When it comes to RPGs, I generally find that players hate when villains get away. RPGs are freeform enough, that it's sometimes hard for players to see why they can't or shouldn't immediately start chasing an enemy who has escaped. GMs can contrive escapes, but it's tricky and can elicit groans from players. Again, buy-in is a factor.

I know I asked what you think of as an "epic boss fight" outside of RPGs, and I'm looking at your criteria through the lens of RPGs, but I'm trying to see how to bring what makes those fights what they are into the pen-&-paper RPG.

rgrnwood:
This is turning into a wall of text so the other events I can think of are: arena design, encounter design,

While this is somewhat independent of RPG design, it's important to know the rules you're using. Some RPGs are more about close fights and others are about very open fights, for instance. Setting one kind of fight in rules meant for another kind might lead to unintended results.

rgrnwood:
bosses having abilities to change the arena, bosses having abilities that are unavailable to the players,

Okay, these get into the areas of rules, somewhat. If we're talking destructable structure, does the game have easy rules for that, or rules that can be reflavored (an attack that imposes a penalty to PC defences for a certain amount of time could be seen as eroding their easy cover, for instance)?

Some games have enemies who are built on the same principles as PCs. GMs can usually state by fiat that the enemy has some aspect of their backstory that would plausibly give them access to enough abilities or gadgets to make them a challenge for the players, but may be somewhat constrained by a desire not to burn too much player buy-in by giving the enemy too much amazing stuff. That's mostly a matter of staying within the genre of the game, though. A wizard or a star-emperor might be able to shrug off projectiles, but a corrupt Nevada sheriff probably can't.

One important aspect common to epic fights is a terrain or location that works for the enemy. It's their lair or their base, or just their kind of terrain. So, one might want to make sure the ruleset allows for cool environmental stuff, or things like traps or automated defenses. If a fight is taking place in a factory, how can the rules accommodate the dangerous and random nature of active machinery to help or hinder both sides?

rgrnwood:
removing abilities from players that they assumed they would always have,

While this is mostly a storytelling element, it's something some games consider, though it's hard to do well. D&D is well-known for monster immunities and things that counter common magical approaches, but different editions handle it differently.

Removing player options also takes a lot of buy-in from players. Do they want to go in and duke it out after fighting to gain all their neat stuff, or do they want to have that stuff stripped away and have to use their wits more?

rgrnwood:
puzzle bosses (not just bullet sponges),

Do you have some examples of these? I like a fight that requires strategy, but when I think "puzzle boss," I think of something that isn't really a "fight," just a question that needs to be solved. Those can be cool or funny in stories (or not), but in games I tend to feel like they are either trivial or impossible. In video games, even if they work well, they tend to have diminished replay value, since the fight will be much easier next time. I suppose that's less of an issue in RPGs.

I suppose that as long as a fight is raging while a solution is arrived and implemented then it's likely to be cool. When Luke hit on tripping the walkers, it was still a dicey situation and not a sure thing. And they still lost, though they never really planned to win. But I tend not to want something where the players can simply stop and think and figure it out and win.

rgrnwood:
perfect difficult level (push players to their limits but not being their limits)...

A perennial issue in game design, right? This isn't entirely independent of the rules, but probably has a lot to do with the mastery of rules and of the tricks of game mastering, so that the GM can line things up well and then adjust them on the fly.

I thought of a few other things I like to see in epic fights:

Change. The characters or the world need to change before, during or after a fight. Rules can facilitate that, in terms of characters at least. If a character has an epiphany and suddenly an ability or set of shackles is unlocked (or locked) and this doesn't require a complicated reworking of a character sheet, then that could be pretty epic.

Real risk/cost. Maybe this is related to "perfect difficulty level," and my dislike of "puzzle bosses" that can just be "solved," as well as to the need for "change," but I think an ideal boss fight has to be one that requires an important sacrifice. If everyone gets away unscathed, then it wasn't epic. I'm not sure how rules can contrive to make that happen though.

rgrnwood:
Oh, and D&D is designed for boss fights. No one-hit kills like they can get in Savage Worlds, plenty of mechanics to toy with, plenty of locales and enemies to choose from, players aren't too frail to make a couple mistakes or have a few bad rolls during a boss fight, etc.

I would tend to agree, though there's something about D&D that I think also works against epic boss fights. I'm not entirely sure what it is. Arguably, it's the degree to which it's handled as something to which optimal strategy should be applied, and the general idea of "fairness" that is generally assumed. That is, players tend to expect and be expected to win, and the game (depending on the edition) supplies enough options for players to lock down or "solve" what could otherwise be epic fights. I know that it's not unusual for people to feel like fights in D&D are just dice-rolling slogs, expecially when the fights go long, as we tend to expect boss fights to do.

All in all, I think what is coming from this discussion is that boss fights can be aided by the rules, but not easily brought about by them. I tend to wrinkle my nose at the idea of things coming about "organically," but (outside of a situation planned out with the players, which I'm not opposed to), I think the epic boss fight is something that is going to happen without obvious intention. There's just going to be a combination of buy-in, backstory, challenge, stakes and disadvantages that, when it's all over, will be recognized as having been "epic."
bigbadron
moderator, 15408 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 21 Aug 2017
at 15:42

Best system for epic boss fights?

Define "best system".

One man's "best system" is another man's "absolutely unplayable mess".
engine
member, 397 posts
Mon 21 Aug 2017
at 15:48
  • msg #10

Best system for epic boss fights?

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 9):

I think it's just a click-baity subject line, not to be taken literally.
bigbadron
moderator, 15409 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 21 Aug 2017
at 15:52

Best system for epic boss fights?

In reply to engine (msg # 10):

I dunno, the first post seems to pretty much fit with it...
quote:
is there a system that does it better than others?

engine
member, 398 posts
Mon 21 Aug 2017
at 15:58
  • msg #12

Best system for epic boss fights?

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 11):

Not much reason for me to do anything other than concede the point to you, even if I had more to say on the matter. So, okay, you're right.
rgrnwood
member, 46 posts
Mon 21 Aug 2017
at 20:20
  • msg #13

Best system for epic boss fights?

Thanks for fleshing it out, engine. As for puzzle bosses, you can Google "TV tropes puzzle boss" and get a huge list of examples and variations. I think puzzle bosses work best in single player videogames (where you can reload a saved game and try over and over again).I wouldn't recommend a true puzzle boss in an multiplayer RPG or any non-videogame.

 What may work in an game here is a difficult boss that has some immunity or resistance to your party's strengths as well as some weaknesses that the GM drops clues about either before or during the fight.

I'll just copy and paste three examples from TV tropes' list of examples from the game Wild Arms 3:
1) Melody, the first time you fight her, has powerful magic and poison attacks... but is constantly attacking Clive, because he just verbally ripped her a new one. Thus, if you manage to keep Clive alive, you can't lose. The rest of the time, she simply has a damage barrier that soaks up 350 points of damage.

2) Malik is so fast that he can't be hit by bullets... until you cast the Decelerate spell on him, making him extremely vulnerable.

3) In every fight against the Schroedinger family, you can set Todd's afro on fire, which acts like poison and quickly takes the most dangerous opponent out.

In all of those examples the player can win by brute force and skill or they can make the fight substantially easier if they figure out the boss' weakness. But puzzle fights are very hit or miss.
billiam
member, 59 posts
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 13:47
  • msg #14

Best system for epic boss fights?

Thanks for all the feedback i actually like the concept of torchbearer @GreyGriffion.

To address the concerns I am looking to see how other see where specific system shine with boss fights. As DND has a ton of monsters to cut and paste and just enough rules to break the rules with but not make too much mess.


To give you some ideas of my favorate "epic" boss fights.

The crashing air ship dnd 4e
A battle atop an air ship as the fight progresses it begins swaying saves or fall prone every turn. Then it builds higher the ship falls out of the sky everyone begins to free fall must use acrobatics to move you speed or be slowed. Had a set number of turns to end the fight and get the ship functioning or everyone dies. Was an amazing fight! Well balanced turns your plans upside down as players and such cinematic play!

Floating islands dnd 4e
Players battle atop a handful of floating islands held in place by huge updrafts. Lots of pushing/proneing enemies. If you fall off the map at the start of your next turn you roll a each island has a assigned number (same for enemies). The updraft would also give you huge bonuses to jumping from island to island to follow enemies or to re-position. It ended with fighting a flying dragon with two players deciding to grapple onto the dragon some amazing rolls made for a memorable fight. The Dragon also had a recharge breath ability that dealt tons of damage and pushed you all over the place which added to race against time feature to every round.

The snakes' lair dnd 5e
A massive snake that's body acted like 2 creatures head and coils one biting the other grappling and crushing. It began next to a pool and the pressure of the snake pulling them into the pool and dealing with drowning was a real threat to the players. They were able to work together to free other players as damage was fairly low per round but the snake was able to ruin their organization by taking out at least 1 of 4 of them each round and intent on killing whoever it caught. All the players finished with single digit hp.



I am looking for a system that builds these pressures into the game easily. So often it is just damage which comes to life with description but I want the pressure to work together and the cinematic awesome feel like jumping into thin air to grapple a dragon! Or tap into real fear of being able to act but not get enough done move react and attach instead of roll to attack every round.

I would love to see a game where we could test fights for other games or try to one up each other with awesome ideas and put them to practice.
engine
member, 408 posts
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 16:27
  • msg #15

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

billiam:
The crashing air ship dnd 4e
A battle atop an air ship as the fight progresses it begins swaying saves or fall prone every turn. Then it builds higher the ship falls out of the sky everyone begins to free fall must use acrobatics to move you speed or be slowed. Had a set number of turns to end the fight and get the ship functioning or everyone dies. Was an amazing fight! Well balanced turns your plans upside down as players and such cinematic play!

That sounds like a lot of fun, though all I can think of is how players would complain about it. I could easily see a player winding up prone every turn out of sheer dumb luck (unless someone had a power to grant a lot of saving throw bonuses, and even then), and then those without decent Acrobatics (which could easily be most members of the party) being slowed and again feeling like they can't do anything. I suppose if the monsters had the same problems it would feel more equal, though it could also turn into one side having lots of trouble and one side having almost none.

Other than that, it sounds like an awesome scene. Was killing every enemy the only way to end the fight? Did the enemy have an interest in getting the ship working again, rather than dying along with the PCs? I like time limits in combat; was it set and did the players know it, or was it hidden by the DM and maybe not a set number? That is, could the worst really have happened, or was it the kind of thing where, if one thought about it, one would realize that the DM would never let a complete wipeout occur?

billiam:
Floating islands dnd 4e
Players battle atop a handful of floating islands held in place by huge updrafts. Lots of pushing/proneing enemies. If you fall off the map at the start of your next turn you roll a each island has a assigned number (same for enemies). The updraft would also give you huge bonuses to jumping from island to island to follow enemies or to re-position. It ended with fighting a flying dragon with two players deciding to grapple onto the dragon some amazing rolls made for a memorable fight. The Dragon also had a recharge breath ability that dealt tons of damage and pushed you all over the place which added to race against time feature to every round.

That also sounds very fun, though again I'd shy away from that as a DM because I'd assume that the players would focus on not interacting with the unpredictable set pieces. There would have to be a reason for them to be okay with landing on a random island, where they might have no one to fight, or where they could be ganged up on (though again, I guess the same is true for the enemies). What exactly was the nature of the time pressure? Was there an overall goal to be accomplished in that time, other than killing all the monsters/PCs?

As a side note, the "grab a flying enemy" tactic is so common I'm surprised the rules don't just address how to handle it. Grabbing is relatively straightforward in 4th Edition, though that's not usually a valid attack if the enemy is too much larger, and then there's the idea of the monster just taking off so that killing it means the PC's death too. Oh, well.

billiam:
I am looking for a system that builds these pressures into the game easily.

What you describe sounds pretty easy for any action-based system. Those encounters made sure that there was a time pressure, and that (at least in the airship example) it wasn't enough to play conservatively - stuff needed to get accomplished and fast or it was all over. Lots of good incentive to use action points and other limited resources. I don't know any game that automatically imposes a time pressure. I thought 13th Age did, until I learned that the escalation die that increments attacks and damage only applies to PCs. If it only applied to the enemy then that would be a time pressure.

Most systems have some sort of pacing mechanism for combat, so that it generally takes a few rounds to finish. Some might be swingy, such that if the PCs uncork their cool moves the fight could be over very quickly. Some would say that 4th Edition D&D combat is terribly slow, with everyone having too many hit points and not enough damage output, though opinions differ and when there's a time pressure or some other reason to cut loose with bigger powers, fights don't last all that long.

I suppose one consideration would be with players having game-breaking powers. In 4th Edition, there was a lot of griping about how common it was for parties to have enough stun/daze/immobilize/etc. powers to reduce any big threat to a pathetic lump. In earlier versions of D&D, spellcasters of any appreciable level seemed to be able to do much the same, or just use fly or some other useful spells to negate whatever the unusual situation might be. In two (and maybe all three) of the examples you mention, fly would foul things up a little, making it more of a normal fight, just in three dimensions (for one of the characters, anyway).

So, overall, I don't really see what this has to do with the game system. One issue most games are going to have is that if you those kinds of scenes early and often and the threat of death is real, then there's going to be a lot of death in relatively short order, and the players  are probably going to wish for something more laid back.

billiam:
So often it is just damage which comes to life with description but I want the pressure to work together and the cinematic awesome feel like jumping into thin air to grapple a dragon!

If you have players that are willing to risk that, then you're pretty much all set if you just give them the opportunity. Lots of players won't take opportunities like that because they won't like the chance of catastrophic failure. What if they miss? What if they don't miss, and now the dragon has them right where they want them, or they foul up the party's chances in some way. They don't want to do anything foolish.

The way I've seen most games encourage GMs to offer situations like that and for players to take them has only somewhat to do with the rules. Mostly the game just has to give the GM permission to say "It's okay to make things that seem foolish be less foolish."

Take your typical action movie where, for some reason, they people with guns regularly get close enough to their targets to get grabbed and punched. You know the best way for characters in those movies to make sure they hit their target? It's to grab someone's arm, point their gun at the target, and pull the trigger. Shots taken like that in movies never miss. But in real life, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done something like that successfully, at least not without a phenomenal amount of luck. It's foolish. It shouldn't work. And a lot of GMs wouldn't let it work, for that reason. They'd argue that it's impossible, or they'd stack enough penalties on it to make sure it all but was. And, hey, if the player still tries it and still succeeds, I guess that does make it even cooler.

So, my take on this is that the GM just has to allow success and failure to be just about equally cool for the player, so that it's worth attempting. Maybe the shoot-someone-else's-gun is a bad example, because that action itself never fails, though maybe what it's about is the cost, in terms of the enemy now having you in close and being able to cause you problems if you didn't roll really well.

Because I think the problem a lot of people might have is that if they believe that they're risking something other than a fall to their death, then jumping on a dragon is going to seem less cool. I do know a guy who, when I said his plan to get himself hurled by an angry golem wouldn't kill him, just might not succeed the way he intended, said that he wanted a ten percent chance that it killed him, and rolled for it. Maybe part of what's hard about having rules that enable such fights is that the rules can't reliably plan on providing the kind of outcome that every individual player wants. That has to come from discussion and agreement at the table.

billiam:
I would love to see a game where we could test fights for other games or try to one up each other with awesome ideas and put them to practice.

I recommend bringing this up in the "Game Proposals, Input, and Advice" forum. I'll look for it there. Good luck.
GreyGriffin
member, 142 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 17:00
  • msg #16

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

Given your examples, I think you might be looking at D&D 4e.

Before the rest of the internet recoils in horror, hear me out.

D&D 4e uses precise, positional tactical combat, and its grid-based setup allows for discrete battlefield construction.  It's easy to say "x square does y."

Furthermore, and here's the important part, there are a ton of abilities that transform the battlefield meaningfully.  In 4e, a lot of powers push, pull, shove, constrain, crowd, or clear the battlefield.  Your ability to interact with not only your positioning but to affect the enemy's positioning allows and incentivizes you to grapple with a tumultuous environment.

D&D 4e is pretty much the only system that I know of that has this degree of environment and enemy interaction.  In other editions of D&D, actions like Bull Rush, Grab, Shove, or Grapple have enormous opportunity cost.  (i.e. You could likely be doing something more "productive" with your action, like doing damage or casting a save-or-die that is more likely to succeed.)  4e's battlefield control abilities are built directly into otherwise productive actions, and the positioning is built very tightly into the system, giving that type of battlefield control real benefits.

Other systems don't do this very well, if at all.  4e is really the best system for these kinds of tactical puzzle combats, simply because getting jostled around the bettlefield is such a key part of the basic gameplay.

There are definitely systems that handle it more narratively.  Environmental Aspects in FATE and battlefield conditions in Torchbearers (see the sample adventure) are what immediately come to mind, but they don't have the gritty tactical nuance of 4e's best tricky battles.
truemane
member, 2098 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 19:59
  • msg #17

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

Clearly it depends on a whole host of factors, starting with what kinds of games you like, how you define all your terms, and what your scoring method is to determine 'best.'


But the system of Tenra Banso Zero is pretty much constructed around the idea of epic boss battles. That's almost entirely what it's for.
mickey65
member, 117 posts
Long-time PbP player
Love several systems
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 20:04
  • msg #18

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

I'm skeptical that any TTRPG system can make long fights anything other than tedious. TTRPGs are not supposed to be MMOs. As in, you know, no graphics.
GreyGriffin
member, 144 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 21:31
  • msg #19

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

mickey65:
I'm skeptical that any TTRPG system can make long fights anything other than tedious. TTRPGs are not supposed to be MMOs. As in, you know, no graphics.

If the system allows for meaningful choices and interactions, and there's enough strategic depth in the content to sustain a combat that's not a slugfest, then a long fight can be exciting, engaging, and emotional on its own merits as an exciting action scene.

Most systems, however, don't really do that, and thus engineer their combat systems to get over with after a few rounds. They count instead on exciting context and decisive action, letting combat stand aside in favor of propelling the plot.

In terms of boss fights, neither is strictly better than the other - both can be fun and exciting play experiences, but both require different things from the system to work at their best.  As a DM, I tend to prefer a combat that drags a bit that I can use my executive privilege to cut off, rather than one that can easily feed up a disappointing anticlimax because of boss dice rolls.
mickey65
member, 119 posts
Long-time PbP player
Love several systems
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 21:37
  • msg #20

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

In reply to GreyGriffin (msg # 19):

I don't see TTRPGs as where you look for "an exciting action scene." You look for that in the latest Marvel movie. TTRPGs are strong in playing the qualitative aspects of a character, not in providing thrill rides. (Granted, there is a Car Wars TTRPG and a Car Wars Card Game, and you'd expect car chases to be the furthest thing from what a TTRPG would be good at, yet both of those Car Wars games are good.)
GreyGriffin
member, 145 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 22:28
  • msg #21

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

I disagree.  I think a tabletop RPG has plenty of potential for action and excitement, all staged in the theater of the mind, where the special effects budget is infinite and your enjoyment of the moment doesn't depend on the choreographer, the cinematographer, or the director.

Empathizing with a character in the heat of the moment, eking out those split second blocks, parries, and dodges with nail-biting tactical decisions and miraculous dice rolls, and acting out your character's idiom in the most intense experiences of their adventurous careers is all great fodder for roleplay.

Just because it's thrilling doesn't mean it's not full of character.
billiam
member, 60 posts
Fri 25 Aug 2017
at 22:48
  • msg #22

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

In reply to truemane (msg # 17):

I actually played a few rounds of TBZ and it does add a cool aspect that you can burn up AiKi to get anything done. The shame there is the limited setting and player base. But it was awesome!


Seems there is no general understanding. So how about the strengths of systems.

As DND 4e did cater to moving people around and off turn action which add to feeling like you can effect more than one turn.

DND 5e keeps a lot of the combat fun of 4e but without all the unique powers to track and head numbing leveling choices.

Tenra Banso Zero has some awesome strengths with full power characters out of the gate! And ways to add actions accuracy and damage however you want. There are some quirks as it is very Japanese and very steeped in its world.

So what systems have I missed that you can speak to?
Mad Mick
member, 906 posts
The end
is in the beginning
Sat 26 Aug 2017
at 01:48
  • msg #23

Re: Best system for epic boss fights?

I wouldn't say GURPS is the best system for epic boss fights, but in the hands of a competent GM, it can be really fun.  I've seen one excellent boss battle versus Acererak in The Tomb of Horrors and the necromancer from The Secret of Bone Hill, not to mention cool protracted battles versus Drow, giants, gnolls, you name it.
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