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07:58, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Unplayabale Games.

Posted by truemane
Tyr Hawk
member, 224 posts
You know that one guy?
Yeah, that's me.
Fri 14 Oct 2016
at 02:30
  • msg #40

Re: Unplayabale Games

Flint_A:
Now that I think about it, the system I hate the most is "Anima". Amazing concept, great lore, beautiful details...and it's incomprehensible. It took us SEVERAL DAYS to be 100% clear on the exact steps you need to take to create a character. Then we told the GM we'd quit if he didn't change systems.

I have a fear that you're talking about Anima: Beyond Fantasy and not Anima Prime, since I believe Anima Prime is a fairly simple system (and almost entirely unheard of to boot).

I'll be the first to admit that approaching Anima head-on is a lot like approaching a train head-on. The train is going to win. It's going to hurt you. And there's really not much of a chance that you'll survive the encounter. That being said, if you can find the right angle, Anima is a great way to get from point A to B, and it's a whole lot more fun than taking the plane (not more expedient, but more fun).

Anima has this terrible habit of, as you said, being "amazing... beautiful... [and] incomprehensible." They've dedicated at least 50% of the (currently) 8 books to character generation (and roughly that much in the Core book alone) and yet finding a rule that's consistent from one book to the next is sort of like finding one of Willy Wonka's Golden Tickets inside an egg. It definitely wasn't supposed to be there, but it was a nice surprise. I've, quite literally, spent the last two years creating a character sheet in Open Office Calc (the poor man's Excel) which automatically calculates values for players, and it's still nowhere near finished. In fact, I still find rules I had no idea existed.

But, then again, you can do pretty much anything with the system. You can build your favorite characters and really flesh them out in the way you'd expect them to be fleshed out. As many ways as there are to break the system, every single build has a counter (with maybe one exception, but that exception is literally turning yourself into a god). There's this... freakishly precise balance to it that's completely nonsense given how unbalanced the system appears to be under even the tiniest bit of scrutiny. And, honestly, when compared to some systems I've gone up against it's just better for what I want to do, because gameplay is about 1000x easier than character generation. Seriously. It is.

The whole system is a mess, but it's one of my favorite messes of all time. I'm sorry to hear that you hate it so much, even if I can understand why. But if you're ever willing to give it another chance (or if anyone is), drop me a line. ;)

Also, back to the specific topic, I've always wanted to play Savage Worlds, but every time I read the rulebooks I have I get... disappointed, I guess. I feel like there's a lot there, but there's not enough there to make me excited about making a character. Or the information is presented in a way that just makes me a little sad. I honestly don't know. All I know is that every time I look at the books I think "Well, nah. Maybe next time."
icosahedron152
member, 677 posts
Fri 14 Oct 2016
at 17:04
  • msg #41

Re: Unplayabale Games

These days, I consider anything with more than a couple of dozen pages to be unplayable. I’m getting less patient as I get older.

The days of poring over 400 page tomes to cross reference the level, race and class of a character with the level, class and type of a skill or spell, and then figure out which of the twenty variations apply in the particular circumstances the character is facing... are long gone. And good riddance!

I just can’t be bothered to read it all, let alone use it. My current go-to game has its core rules written on two sides of A4. I just roll 1D6, apply a couple of modifiers that are easily committed to memory, and move on to the next action.

The last attempt I made with a large rule set was BESM 2nd Ed. The character generation rules were fun to begin with - you could build just about anything in amazing detail. I played about with it and found that Batman was recognizably Batman, Aragorn was recognizably Aragorn. It was the rules equivalent of HeroMachinetm.

But then all that detail becomes an irritating burden when you have to look up the multiple effects that each facet of your build has on actions. Having built these amazing characters, I just couldn’t be bothered playing them.

Should I mention Traveller The New Era? There are supplements in that game that let you construct bullets from individual components, for fruit’s sake! You pick a case length, head weight, and decide how much powder to put in it!
Then you can design a gun to put it in, and then you have to figure out the infinitesimal variations in characteristics that your weapon design brings to play - and IIRC in order to make use of those variations it becomes necessary to calculate the distance to target down to the nearest foot, etc, etc.

Talk about micro-management.
Heath
member, 2911 posts
If my opinion changes,
The answer is still 42.
Fri 14 Oct 2016
at 19:05
  • msg #42

Re: Unplayabale Games

In reply to LonePaladin (msg # 36):

I had just about the same experience with Paranoia back in about 1988 or 1989.  The original rules might actually work better on RPoL because the players don't know the rules.  But the catch 22 with Paranoia is that your characters are already traitors so knowing the basics of the rules is part of their treasonous behavior.  Paranoia XP allowed them to know the basics--and the addition of perversity points and the traitor accusation chart was nice.  It also split games into the traditional type of comedy based mayhem (Zap), the regular paranoia style (Classic), and a serious, more rule focused game (Straight).

FYI, the new edition of Paranoia was funded by Kickstarter and I believe it will be released soon.
bigbadron
moderator, 15195 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 14 Oct 2016
at 19:20

Re: Unplayabale Games

In reply to icosahedron152 (msg # 41):

At least Fire, Fusion and Steel's design sequences are optional.  You can always just stick to the default weapons.

Still, trying to design the ultimate weapon, vehicle or starship for the various iterations of Traveller is an oddly compelling solo game.  :)  Have spent a lot of time doing just that over the last 39 years (yes, Traveller turns forty next year).
Flint_A
member, 570 posts
Fri 14 Oct 2016
at 19:56
  • msg #44

Re: Unplayabale Games

Tyr Hawk:
And, honestly, when compared to some systems I've gone up against it's just better for what I want to do, because gameplay is about 1000x easier than character generation. Seriously. It is.


My friend literally printed out charts and tables for combat. CHARTS AND TABLES. *shudders* That said, if I was the only player, I would have been fine with it. I had actually 90% finished my character, but I knew my fellow players would refuse to understand the system and I would have been expected to make up for them. I said no. And yeah, you're right, it offers quite a few opportunities for breaking things. Through using the Knowledge...sub-school?(I forget the terminology) and a couple of generic spells, I was casting spells from every school for free. (The weak, crappy spells, but still.)



On Paranoia, I joined the Kickstarter and the new rules look pretty nice.
JxJxA
member, 171 posts
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 02:23
  • msg #45

Re: Unplayabale Games

For me, it's the HERO system, any edition. I've run out of patience for game systems that are textbooks because rule intricacy is not why I play pen-and-paper RPGs. I find it gets in the way of playing the game because I'm not always sure of the consequences for actions (I love my first tabletop group, but they were munchkins to the extreme)---and that is doubly true if I'm GM-ing.

HERO is not only complicated, but is also counter-intuitive for me because you wanted to roll under a number instead of over. Every game I had played before had a mechanic where you wanted to roll over a number. My first experience with it sucked blueberries because we tried it right after Shadowrun. Suddenly, rolling 6s was not a good thing.
Hunter
member, 1330 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 02:45
  • msg #46

Re: Unplayabale Games

Star Fleet Battles.   Oh the fun.   Oh the engineering manual the basic rules are....
Tyr Hawk
member, 225 posts
You know that one guy?
Yeah, that's me.
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 03:36
  • msg #47

Re: Unplayabale Games

Flint_A:
My friend literally printed out charts and tables for combat. CHARTS AND TABLES. *shudders*

Well, in all fairness, Anima just actually writes down the charts and tables that many other systems leave in the background for you to figure out yourself. You could easily do the same thing for Scion, D&D, M&M, WoD, and almost anything with a rulebook longer than a few pages. If it makes you feel any better, the rewrite of the Core Book did provide formulas for some of the charts instead (A-B=C; C*D=E sort of thing), and most of the tables are just descriptions of modifiers.

Flint_A:
Through using the Knowledge...sub-school?(I forget the terminology) and a couple of generic spells, I was casting spells from every school for free. (The weak, crappy spells, but still.)

Subpath (close enough, really). I can imagine the path you would've taken there, and it seems like you either had a very solid grasp of the rules, or a very loose one. ;) Of course, given how Anima works, it could be both at the same time...

icosahedron152:
Should I mention Traveller The New Era? There are supplements in that game that let you construct bullets from individual components, for fruit’s sake! You pick a case length, head weight, and decide how much powder to put in it!
Then you can design a gun to put it in, and then you have to figure out the infinitesimal variations in characteristics that your weapon design brings to play - and IIRC in order to make use of those variations it becomes necessary to calculate the distance to target down to the nearest foot, etc, etc.

Wow. That sounds crazy as buckets. I don't even know how that would work (since it sounds like it doesn't).
icosahedron152
member, 678 posts
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 05:37
  • msg #48

Re: Unplayabale Games

bigbadron:
At least Fire, Fusion and Steel's design sequences are optional.  You can always just stick to the default weapons.

Still, trying to design the ultimate weapon, vehicle or starship for the various iterations of Traveller is an oddly compelling solo game.  :)  Have spent a lot of time doing just that over the last 39 years (yes, Traveller turns forty next year).

True, but if you're going to stick to the default weapons, you might as well stick to Classic Traveller. :)

Yes, I spent a good many solo years designing stuff for Traveller myself. I have notebooks and obsolete computer programs full of the stuff. It's very compelling, but alas, not very playable.

I particularly liked Striker - except for its own unplayable section: aircraft. That section was an iterative process of redesign until you found a set of components that would fit properly into the airframe without being underpowered or overweight; utterly impossible without a spreadsheet.

Forty already?? I recall its thirtieth birthday like it was yesterday. Where's my bath chair and blanket?
cptcthulhu
member, 190 posts
Nuke em till they glow
Shoot them in the dark.
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 05:55
  • msg #49

Re: Unplayabale Games

Hunter:
Star Fleet Battles.   Oh the fun.   Oh the engineering manual the basic rules are....

Star Fleet Battles? I loved that game.....................
swordchucks
member, 1315 posts
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 15:22
  • msg #50

Re: Unplayabale Games

It kind of seems like there's a missing distinction between "games that are difficult to play" and "games that are difficult to create characters for".  GURPS and HERO both fall into the second category (and can also thus be difficult to run since making foes is much the same process), but in play they seem to work just fine.
Digishade
member, 4 posts
Sat 15 Oct 2016
at 18:33
  • msg #51

Unplayabale Games

Nobilis. Good God, how I love the idea and the setting of that game, especially the "Great White Book" edition. The same side of that coin relates to its sheer density though, and the depth required from both players and GM to make the game work in its purest form.

Oh, you can narrow it down and play just about any genre of storytelling through it, but at the same time it would feel to me like I'd be missing something, or depriving my players of options. I'm just not a good enough player or GM to run that game, but damn if the book isn't amazing.
This message was last edited by the user at 18:34, Sat 15 Oct 2016.
JxJxA
member, 172 posts
Sun 16 Oct 2016
at 02:22
  • msg #52

Unplayabale Games

I dunno about you, but I found HERO also ground to a halt once combat started.
icosahedron152
member, 679 posts
Sun 16 Oct 2016
at 07:48
  • msg #53

Unplayabale Games

In reply to JxJxA (msg # 52):

Most games grind to a halt once combat starts, because most games are written for Face to Face play in real time.

PbP is different. Every little detail that adds to immersion or improves suspense across a table, generates impatience and boredom in PbP while you wait for someone in a different time zone to ask a question, receive an answer, roll the dice (maybe more than once), get feedback from the GM, and then post the results of their activity - each part of which takes 12-36 hours. Then you move on to the second of six players...

This is why I prefer simple rules these days, along with rules-lite or semi-freeform games.
JxJxA
member, 173 posts
Sun 16 Oct 2016
at 08:09
  • msg #54

Unplayabale Games

In reply to icosahedron152 (msg # 53):

Well, in this case I meant face-to-face for HERO. It's definitely not something I'd ever want to play again.

I fall in the same group as you. I play RPGs for the acting and interaction. I like game systems that use a rule system that helps facilitate that while keeping people honest and not go into god-mode.
engine
member, 223 posts
Sun 16 Oct 2016
at 20:42
  • msg #55

Re: Unplayabale Games

icosahedron152:
PbP is different. Every little detail that adds to immersion or improves suspense across a table, generates impatience and boredom in PbP while you wait for someone in a different time zone to ask a question, receive an answer, roll the dice (maybe more than once), get feedback from the GM, and then post the results of their activity - each part of which takes 12-36 hours. Then you move on to the second of six players...
Yes, the interaction that one might use at a table has to be done away with over pbp. It's possible, though, to not ask that question (or allow players to answer it themselves), not require the feedback, and to allow players to resolve their own actions, so that their turn takes only a single post. It takes trust that isn't needed as strongly at the table (but which table play can also benefit from), but I have yet to see a game in which the rules actually required that degree of back and forth.

Edit: I get that you may be referring to details like hidden defenses an enemy might have, which can be sprung on players to turn the tables, and require the GM to supply the results of PC actions. Yes, those kinds of things can slow things down to an irritating degree, even at the table. I submit that neither immersion nor suspense hinge entirely on such things. I suppose this isn't the thread for that discussion, though.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:10, Sun 16 Oct 2016.
icosahedron152
member, 680 posts
Sun 16 Oct 2016
at 21:17
  • msg #56

Re: Unplayabale Games

engine:
I suppose this isn't the thread for that discussion, though.

No, I think we're some way off topic. If you want to start another, though, I'll chat a while.
engine
member, 224 posts
Sun 16 Oct 2016
at 21:23
  • msg #57

Re: Unplayabale Games

In reply to icosahedron152 (msg # 56):

Eh, probably not, thanks anyway. I've learned that people have very different ideas about what immerses them. I'm glad you know what works and what doesn't for you.
V_V
member, 560 posts
Wed 19 Oct 2016
at 04:15
  • [deleted]
  • msg #58

Unplayabale Games

This message was deleted by the user at 04:40, Wed 19 Oct 2016.
GreyGriffin
member, 1 post
Thu 20 Oct 2016
at 04:35
  • msg #59

Unplayabale Games

I am really not sure what makes peoples' brains explode when they play M&M.  Yes, it's not strictly mechanically balanced, but it never has been (even in 1e.)  You just have to communicate from player to GM, and maybe in some cases fudge a bit.  Yes, as a GM, you have to be diligent about peoples' sheets and lay some ground rules and have mutually respectful players who will use mechanics to carry the flavor and tone of the game rather than playing the hypothetical mechanically ideal Stab Man.  Properly played and run, its mechanics really encourage a comic book feel better than most (if not all) supers systems I've had the privilege of playing.

Anima (Beyond Fantasy) is on the other side of the spectrum.  It system begs you to hyperspecialize, because if you don't Maxxor your Combaxxor Staxxor, you're going to get your ass kicked in by generic town guardsmen.  This leaves you with precious few points to round your character out.  The math gets worse when you consider skill checks.  Imagine a 30th level D&D 3.5 edition character having to make a DC 50 skill check he's not proficient in.  Only there are about... what, 40 different skills?  And if you want to be an athetic anime fighter guy, you know, what they sell on the cover, with the whole aesthetic and theme of the game, you need... Acrobatics, Athleticism, Climb, Jump (yes, this is a separate skill from Acrobatics AND Athleticism), Swim (and again), and Feats of Strength (?!?!).  And if you're spending your proper allotment of advancement points on being a proper anime fighter dude, there's no way you can keep up with all these, much less keeping up with all of these and not being blind, socially inept, and totally uneducated.

As for my personal bugaboo of an unplayable game?  A Time Of War, the hotly anticipated Mechwarrior RPG.  Chargen is a nightmare, and it strongly encourages heroin-addicted psychopaths with its point buy system, and the mechanics are not nearly nuanced, interesting, or satisfying enough to warrant all that effort.  I tried to run a Battletech campaign with A Time Of War characters in the backdrop, and I literally dropped it session 2, and homebrewed some Traveller stuff which was way, way easier and way, way better.
Tyr Hawk
member, 231 posts
You know that one guy?
Yeah, that's me.
Thu 20 Oct 2016
at 04:52
  • msg #60

Re: Unplayabale Games

GreyGriffin:
Anima (Beyond Fantasy) ... begs you to hyperspecialize, because if you don't Maxxor your Combaxxor Staxxor, you're going to get your ass kicked in by generic town guardsmen.  This leaves you with precious few points to round your character out.  The math gets worse when you consider skill checks.  Imagine a 30th level D&D 3.5 edition character having to make a DC 50 skill check he's not proficient in.  Only there are about... what, 40 different skills? And if you want to be an athetic anime fighter guy, you know, what they sell on the cover, with the whole aesthetic and theme of the game, you need... Acrobatics, Athleticism, Climb, Jump (yes, this is a separate skill from Acrobatics AND Athleticism), Swim (and again), and Feats of Strength (?!?!).  And if you're spending your proper allotment of advancement points on being a proper anime fighter dude, there's no way you can keep up with all these, much less keeping up with all of these and not being blind, socially inept, and totally uneducated.

As someone who has spent a good few years with the system, I can tell anyone and everyone that none of this is true (there are 52 skills, not 40 =P ).

While it might not be as easy to do as D&D or other systems, it's certainly possible to make an Acrobatic Warrior that's proficient in nearly everything (there's an advantage for it, actually, which is nearly broken in how useful it is). As to what's a "proper allotment," I've gone through the books enough times to say, with confidence, that even without the advantage you can keep yourself relevant in 6-8 skills. The Level 30, DC 50 is a ridiculous comparison since most skill checks never get nearly that high (comparatively), and when a character is what would be 30th level in D&D, they have plenty of points to throw around.

I won't say Anima doesn't give the impression that most of this isn't possible, and some players even perpetuate these misconceptions, but just like you preached with M&M you need people who know the system and are willing to work with it properly. Almost anything is possible in Anima, even if it's not all possible at Level 1.
GreyGriffin
member, 2 posts
Thu 20 Oct 2016
at 05:47
  • msg #61

Re: Unplayabale Games

Tyr Hawk:
As someone who has spent a good few years with the system, I can tell anyone and everyone that none of this is true (there are 52 skills, not 40 =P ).

While it might not be as easy to do as D&D or other systems, it's certainly possible to make an Acrobatic Warrior that's proficient in nearly everything (there's an advantage for it, actually, which is nearly broken in how useful it is). As to what's a "proper allotment," I've gone through the books enough times to say, with confidence, that even without the advantage you can keep yourself relevant in 6-8 skills. The Level 30, DC 50 is a ridiculous comparison since most skill checks never get nearly that high (comparatively), and when a character is what would be 30th level in D&D, they have plenty of points to throw around.

I won't say Anima doesn't give the impression that most of this isn't possible, and some players even perpetuate these misconceptions, but just like you preached with M&M you need people who know the system and are willing to work with it properly. Almost anything is possible in Anima, even if it's not all possible at Level 1.


My experience with it has been largely at low levels, and my group as a whole had great difficulty building competent characters.  Maybe the math does level out eventually.  The game's writing and emphasis on rapidly scaling numbers certainly doesn't prepare one for the impression of the first level experience.  The benchmarks of what appear to be fairly generic NPCs (Knights, Samurai, and City Guards) seem to set extremely high bars for competence in combat.

Does the math level out as one advances in level?  Do you need to dig through multiple sourcebooks to build a character with basic competence?  I did see a... rule?  Errata?  That added some basic skill points to all characters, when we thought about picking it up again.  Do those help?  Do the mathematic performance requirements of characters at higher levels preclude spending your Creation points on things that are fun and thematic?
Tyr Hawk
member, 232 posts
You know that one guy?
Yeah, that's me.
Thu 20 Oct 2016
at 14:46
  • msg #62

Re: Unplayabale Games

In reply to GreyGriffin (msg # 61):

Without derailing things too much, the rule you're talking about for extra skills is from the revised Core book (called Core Exxet) which isn't available in English. The revised Core, along with the GM's Toolkit and both of the setting books, makes character competency much easier, though Anima still has a flair of realism in that it limits just how much one can be good at without sacrifice.

While the combat bar can be set fairly high by the NPCs, it's important to remember most of them have no purpose other than their core job, and 95% of them have little-to-no supernatural capacity or equipment. It's also very much the decision of the GM whether or not they want to modify those stats in order to set combat expectations lower than the creators (who were, and still are, just a tad crazy).

And if you'd like to discuss this more I'm more than happy to do so over PMs, so that we can let this thread get back on track. Not that we're too far off course now, but I'd rather not risk it. ;)
GreyGriffin
member, 3 posts
Thu 20 Oct 2016
at 16:49
  • msg #63

Re: Unplayabale Games

In reply to Tyr Hawk (msg # 62):

I think discussing why systems are (or seem!) unplayable is quite salient discussion.  For instance, our conversation has brought up the interesting concept of benchmarking.

Games like D&D 3-4 are relatively easy to benchmark because of the vast swathes of statistically rich content.  You can easily compare your character to a goblin or a dragon and find out where he or she is on the food chain.  You look at the list of DCs for each of your skills and figure out what you are capable of.

A system with a wider variance of power, or less published content, can make it much more difficult to benchmark a character.  In Anima, for instance, all we have to compare ourselves to is the NPC stat blocks.  It's possible (probable?) that Anima seemed unplayable to my group because we were comparing ourselves to comparably leveled NPCs and finding ourselves wanting.

I have to admit I struggled making characters (and adversaries) in M&M until I learned to compare my character to various NPCs and equipment, up to and including a tank (the metal box with a cannon, not the PC role).  Once I had an eye on that baseline, and really got what those bonuses meant (in a comic bookey context), the game really started to make a lot more sense to me.

A lot of more abstract systems can seem unplayable because character generation feels very floaty, and you lack concrete reference points.  A dearth of content can force the GM to throw out math on the fly, and some  GMs are better at that than others.  Without some level of consistency or common understanding at the table, there's no real way to get a feel for your character's aptitude or capabilities.  You are just throwing dice into the void and hoping you get narrated a success.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:51, Thu 20 Oct 2016.
LonePaladin
member, 520 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Thu 20 Oct 2016
at 20:41
  • msg #64

Re: Unplayabale Games

Rolemaster has something like this: character creation is very complex, and can take experienced players an hour or more. (It's much longer if you have no idea what you're doing.) The creatures and NPCs, on the other hand, are just given some abstract numbers with no real 'how-to' behind them.

A PC, for instance, is going to have ten different stats, with each skill using the combined bonuses from two or three of these, and dozens of skill ranks coming from background, package deals, and direct purchase. In the end, you'll need to know that your fighter has a weapon skill of, say, +75, but you know how it got that high.

By contrast, here are all the stats you get on a goblin, in shorthand:
LvlBase MoveMax PaceMS/AQSize/CritHitsAT(DB)AttacksBonus XPOutlook(IQ)
2B45FSpt/0SL/MDM/—40D8(30s)40Melee/20MissileCHostile(MD)

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