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22:32, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

Posted by NooDleZ
GreenTongue
member, 762 posts
Game Archaeologist
Sun 7 Aug 2016
at 12:21
  • msg #15

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

facemaker329:
And 'dead' is a relative term.  Sure, PF isn't new...but a lot of games that aren't new are still being played.

True That!
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 12:48, Sun 07 Aug 2016.
bigbadron
moderator, 15142 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 7 Aug 2016
at 12:50

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

Everybody please remember that the rules of this forum do not permit any individual game to be named, linked to, or otherwise identified hrere.

Thank you.
Flint_A
member, 510 posts
Sun 7 Aug 2016
at 13:48
  • msg #17

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

I still prefer 3.5 (and PF) to 5E, both as a player and as a GM, though 5 is quite fun. However, every time I convince myself to run a 3.5 game, I face the same difficulty. If I keep the PCs low-powered, none of us have fun. If I have them high-powered, I need to come up with tough challenges. And coming up with challenges for a high-power 3.5 party takes HOURS. I don't want to build NPCs during every free time I have, and you can only throw them generic monsters for so long. So every time I start running D&D, I end up quitting after a few sessions.

So, you know, something like that might be happening to the other DMs too.
C-h Freese
member, 237 posts
Survive - Love - Live
Sun 7 Aug 2016
at 14:12
  • msg #18

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to Flint_A (msg # 17):

     My suggestion is don't do Anything to the Players Characters; this problem of not feeling like heroes at low level appeared when the zero level races disappeared with 1st edition.
  If Heroes learn by Levels, and Mundanes learn by study over years but have low hit points. There is a massive shift from "Oh just one more adventurer" to; Heroes, Super-heroes, and Mythic-heroes.
Flint_A
member, 511 posts
Mon 8 Aug 2016
at 09:56
  • msg #19

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to C-h Freese (msg # 18):

I can and have ran low-power D&D games, I just don't find them enjoyable in the least. I only run them when I have inexperienced players who want to play "anything" or I need to quickly make up a game for a convention or something. It just feels so formulaic and cliché, like the hundreds of stories I've read.

It can get interesting, sure. I once ran a little freeform one-shot where the PCs were random villagers in a medieval village, and they managed to start (not end) an undead apocalypse. It was quite unexpected and hilarious. I have full faith that those particular players would have achieved the same thing in D&D as long as I was a little liberal with the rules. But that's just it, I hate picking a crunchy system and then being liberal with it. If I was going to do that I'd just go pick a freer system in the first place.
ShootingStar
member, 38 posts
So very brief and bright;
meteor and lifetime alike
Wed 10 Aug 2016
at 21:58
  • msg #20

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

It's a little like celebrities.     Nobody stays on top forever.


Sometimes, a thing is supplanted by something truly improved, other times the masses just want a sense of "new."

Personally, I think PF suffered from what seems to happen with most D&D editions -- it got so bloated with options, variants, and "neato" classes it became sort of cartoony and silly.

This said, I think it's far from dead, or even dying.   It's just that "PF Mania" has hit the hill, as it was bound to do sooner or later.
GammaBear
member, 651 posts
Gaymer
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 04:55
  • msg #21

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

ShootingStar:
Personally, I think PF suffered from what seems to happen with most D&D editions -- it got so bloated with options, variants, and "neato" classes it became sort of cartoony and silly.

This said, I think it's far from dead, or even dying.   It's just that "PF Mania" has hit the hill, as it was bound to do sooner or later.


I couldn't agree more. PF was great...when it first came out. Since then, it's fallen in to the same trap of 3.5. There is just WAAAY too much stuff, and each new coat of paint does nothing to fix the problems with the foundation. And there's just way too much to keep track of. There's a reason I refer to it as Mathfinder now.

I love what 5e is doing. THAT'S the business model for longevity.
willvr
member, 943 posts
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 05:45
  • msg #22

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

The problem from a business perspective of the way 5E is going is, how do you get repeated customers? Once you have the core books, what else? That's the reason DnD has always gone that way; is sourcebooks sell beyond just the initial influx. Adventures... so-so. Because they've always told you to make your own, and how to even in some cases. So why buy the official ones?

Pathfinder is fine. It's my favorite edition to run; though I prefer second edition to play.
GammaBear
member, 652 posts
Gaymer
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 05:51
  • msg #23

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to willvr (msg # 22):

The reason WotC has changed their business model is because of player interest and longevity. Their research has shown a huge majority of their players actually don't like tons of splat. It turns them off, thus it turns them to other games, which shortens the life of the current edition. They want their stuff to last more than a few years. 3.5 didn't last as long as they wanted, and 4e even less. They want 5e to stick around for 10+ years.
jimlafleur
member, 147 posts
playing AD&D, AFMBE,
BFRPG, Rifts
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 07:22
  • msg #24

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

To put it in the words of the small green gnome:
"At an end Pathfinder's rule is, and not short enough it was!" :D
jamat
member, 465 posts
P:5 T:7 W:0 F:0 B:3
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 15:23
  • msg #25

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

I've just picked up the new pocket pathfinders rule book as I've always been interested in it but never got round to putting the money on the table...after I read through it I might well be looking for a game on here sometime in the future to.
Brianna
member, 2081 posts
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 21:16
  • msg #26

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to GammaBear (msg # 23):

Of course management at TSR/WotC has changed, several times, and usually drastically, over the years, but anyone there who paid any attention knew before they published 3E that players really didn't want a new edition, that splat was fine, sort of, if core was still maintained, and that, even then, players had too many books to keep track of (remember having all the books on your laptop was impractical, and IIRC illegal then, if your laptop could even handle it all).  But that meant they had to put out a new edition to get us to buy more books.  And now I need to go do something else, whenever I think of the way they forced 3E on the RPGA, at that time a dynamic group of devoted players, my blood pressure goes up.  We all would have bought 3E anyway, and probably at the GenCon it came out at, or ASAP if we weren't at GenCon, but as it was, I think some went to other systems, and probably never came back.  It was IMO the first major terrible decision they made that led to the decimation of the RPGA.

IMO they would have been better to bring out new editions as basically new games.  The differences between 2E and 3E, and 3E/3.5 and 4E were pretty drastic, and from the little I know of 5E it follows that pattern.
swordchucks
member, 1250 posts
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 21:40
  • msg #27

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

Judging by the health of the PFS groups around, I don't really see that Pathfinder, overall, is in trouble.  Folks that I've seen leaving Pathfinder tend to do so for non-d20 games (Savage Worlds seems to be popular in my area) as often as for 5e (which does have the benefit of a very strong organized play group).

One thing that boggles my mind is the complete lack of a way to own legal PDFs of 5e material.  The idea that a company is choosing to keep a product that could easily be digital as a strictly offline product is just weird.

Also, it might just be perspective, but it seems like the number of games offered on RPOL, in general, is down of late.  Pathfinder games, when they do appear, tend to fill up fast (and I can attest that you'll get double the number of applicants for that as you will for most anything else).
GammaBear
member, 653 posts
Gaymer
Thu 11 Aug 2016
at 22:51
  • msg #28

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

swordchucks:
One thing that boggles my mind is the complete lack of a way to own legal PDFs of 5e material.  The idea that a company is choosing to keep a product that could easily be digital as a strictly offline product is just weird.


That choice was pretty much the best/only option they had to prevent pirating. Granted, it still happens. All someone has to do is scan their book and upload.
Flint_A
member, 514 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 00:16
  • msg #29

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to GammaBear (msg # 28):

It's actually the WORST choice. Pirated PDFs exist and work very well. If cheap official PDFs existed I'm sure many players would have bought them just to avoid the hassle and support the developers. But not everyone wants to or even can buy lots of books. I'd have to import them in my country, for example. I can certainly buy and/or download PDfs though.
GammaBear
member, 654 posts
Gaymer
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 00:20
  • msg #30

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to Flint_A (msg # 29):

Well, then you need to file that complaint with Wizards, not us.
willvr
member, 944 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 00:38
  • msg #31

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

I would have stayed with second edition, I would have stayed with third. What I don't understand is, where can they actually make money on 5th edition? The adventures tend to be too expensive, and from what I understand, is actually outsourced to another company anyway, WotC just finetunes some stuff.

4E... well, the problem was not so much the splatbooks, is the way it turned into an Us vs Them. Either you were buying it, or you didn't.

5E fills up very fast as well, and I have no real issues with the system. But they cannot possibly be making that much money with only the core books available, plus I think one other. Granted, the first printing was very fragile, so I need to replace that; but if their business model is really that the book will need to replaced that... well, if that were true I'd swear off using them again.
GammaBear
member, 655 posts
Gaymer
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 00:42
  • msg #32

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

willvr:
5E fills up very fast as well, and I have no real issues with the system. But they cannot possibly be making that much money with only the core books available, plus I think one other.


They obviously are if they continue to follow the same business model and 5e has been out how long now?

Just because a few people don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't work.
facemaker329
member, 6838 posts
Gaming for over 30
years, and counting!
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 06:25
  • msg #33

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to Brianna (msg # 26):

My recollection of the timing may be off...but I thought 2E was published by TSR, who sold to WOTC a couple of years after its release.  3E, from the impression I got, was WOTC basically saying, "Okay, D&D is OURS, now, so let's make people buy OUR version of it."

Other factors may be coloring my memories of that, as well (I'd stopped playing D&D before 2E was even released, so I wasn't exactly keeping track of everything).  A lot of my friends who DID play, however, had a lot of animosity about 3E coming out, because they perceived it as I described above.  Additionally, at the time, WOTC seemed to be trying to corner the role-playing market, and every game/company they bought, shortly saw a new edition of the game come out.
willvr
member, 945 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 06:43
  • msg #34

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 33):

Yeah, he's right. I played 2E at that point; and from the moment of the sale, 3rd edition started getting talked about. The Players' Option books were published by WotC it's true; but they were quick to point out this was -not- a third edition. Then not too long after it became clear 2nd edition was dead. Nothing was being sold for it anymore; except old stuff recycled, and no new adventures were even forthcoming. It was probably the original Edition Wars as far as DnD was concerned, because the system was so very different.

I regret getting rid of my second edition stuff; because I now have a lot of nostalgia for that edition, but for whatever reason, they were a lot more successful converting people to third than they were to 4th.
locojedi
member, 101 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 06:51
  • msg #35

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

Would them not selling pdfs have anything to do with the recent announcements of licensing to Roll20 and FG2? If they control digital content through those apps, then they don't need to release pdfs, they'll make their money getting us to buy subscriptions... maybe?

My frustration with PF here is that the games I get into mostly die just after character creation. I think that some GMs get in over their heads with all the crunch. PF is pretty intense, and GMs need to streamline their approach to keep up with it...

My frustration with 5e here is that DMs flake out just after character creation... ;-)

My frustration with both PF and 5e is that players rely on their character sheets to drive the stories instead of their imaginations. The crunchier the system, it seems, the harder it is for many players to separate the mechanics from the narrative. My most narratively rich game, which I run, uses Warrior, Rogue and Mage (WyRM) which is a very simple system.

So the original question might better be asked "Is Pathfinder viable on this site?" I find that PF and D&D are great for character creation, but then become too heavy for PbP.

Obviously I'm not speaking absolutes here, but these are my observations.
StarMaster
member, 186 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 07:12
  • msg #36

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

The business model is actually that of the auto industry--a new model HAS to come out every year. To me, that's like saying they still can't get it right.

2E, unfortunately, was a road bump. Its major claim to 'fame' was the concept of the Kit. With 1st Ed, everyone kept making up their own character class... I don't know if anyone was ever able to index them all, but Dragon magazine was always publishing a new one or, worse, another version. I seem to recall that there were three separate versions of the Bounty Hunter published.

Players, GMs in particular, tended to be very creative, and making up new classes was an outlet for that creativity. In a way, it was like they were saying, 'If I had done D&D, I'd have had the Banana Peeler, the Coconut Cracker and the Arse-kicker classes.'

Anyway, the Kits were the replacement for that. I think there were even more Kits created than Classes.

2E came about because the industry had graduated from the scratchpad publishing style to a more sophisticated product, and it was now realized that those 'kids' who'd started out playing AD&D were now all grown up, still playing and willing to spend their hard-earned money on a better product. So 2E was a publishing upgrade. Unfortunately, TSR was a day late and a dollar short.

Somewhere in the mix, I can remember Castle Falkenstein coming out at the local bookstore. Compared to everything else that was on the market then (at least all that I'd seen), CF was light years ahead of the industry in terms of art, layout, and overall quality. That was the benchmark that TSR was trying to achieve, and realized they'd missed it with 2E.

2E had another problem: multiple campaign books. What TSR failed to realize was that every player that had $10 to spend could only afford one of those campaigns. So every new one they came out with split the fan base into 6-7 different products. That essentially guaranteed that none of them would be financially successful.

3E came about for several reasons. I won't disagree that WotC might not have wanted to put their own stamp on the game--probably more like 'this is how we would have done it' or 'look how shiny we made it!'. Primarily, though, it came about because 2E no longer met the industry standards.

So now that WotC wanted to put out a better product, they also considered upgrades to the game itself. Most of this came from comments at conventions, but letters sent in also had something to do with it. Essentially, players kept saying 'this is how we REALLY play'. I ran across a lot of players who'd adopted the 'positive AC system' long before 3E came out.

So, there really wasn't a single reason for 3E.

4E was done because WotC found that D&D players were leaving the game in droves. I think most of that was because they were growing up and getting lives. But WotC thought they could appeal to the video gamers, and tried to create a game that played like a video game. Personally, I think they succeeded, which is why I never liked 4E. I just don't think video gamers wanted to bother reading any books, so that market was never really there.

5E was 'lessons learned'... finally. That's not to say they aren't making new mistakes. In theory, any previous version of D&D is supposedly 'compatible' with 5E, though I've never tried to test that. Might have been interesting at a convention, though.

Anyway... 3E was, first and foremost, meant as an upgrade to the new paradigm of the industry, which was Castle Falkenstein. I've yet to see anything that has surpassed that.
willvr
member, 946 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 07:35
  • msg #37

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

Except, they weren't leaving the game in droves, exactly. What 4E had as much to do with, is Hasbro purchasing the company. They have (or had, not sure about now) very specific benchmarks for what made a product 'successful'. Every branch of their company, of which WotC had now become part of, not only had to reach that benchmark, but so did each individual product. Magic: The Gathering is the only thing even vaguely like RPing which did. DnD failed, majorly. Not because it was selling that much worse than it had been; but because DnD was a niche market, and as such, was never going to sell the way Hasbro's other products did. It just wasn't viable.

They absolutely needed to -slow down- the amount of splatbooks. It was going at something like 2 a month - one 'generic' one, one 'Forgotten Realms specific' one.

I disagree that Castle Falkenstein is the benchmark. Layout, design, artwork has never been what makes a successful RP game. Otherwise, 4E would have crushed it. That, and 2E many campaign settings is still seen as it's strength. Most of the kits were utter garbage.
swordchucks
member, 1251 posts
Fri 12 Aug 2016
at 13:58
  • msg #38

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

The structure of Hasbro has a lot to do with the workings of both 4e and 5e.  A big part of 4e was the attempt to move the game out of the model of selling books and into the subscription model.  If the guy that was supposed to be spearheading the software design that would have made that possible hadn't killed himself shortly before launch, they might even have pulled it off.  However, they didn't quite, and that's lead to the tiny staff and budget 5e gets to deal with.

5e is really using the best model they can get away with given their tiny resource pool.  I just dislike their archaic online practices and the lack of depth in the game mechanics.
ricosuave
member, 125 posts
Fri 19 Aug 2016
at 03:30
  • msg #39

Re: Is Pathfinder Dead on this site???

For me its not so much that pathfinder is dead... as much as there are too many pathfinder with weirdness involved.

the ratio of pathfinder games compared to pathfinder+ games is low


I do not want to play in a steampunk/magictech/Xpunk pathfinder game, those genre settings have zero appeal to me, I do not want to do an arena nor some type of games pathfinder or some kind of weird world building stuff.

I just found it beyond aggravating that there is a lack of PF games that are just straight PF.


also I do not count the ones for reign of winter or startin at level 1 but just doing random stuff instead of an AP or an evil based AP.
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