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7th Sea 2nd Edition.

Posted by PCO.Spvnky
engine
member, 94 posts
Sat 28 May 2016
at 19:22
  • msg #9

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky:
An rpg game is more than just a system of rules and rolls if that's all the game was about then we wouldn't have so many that are popular.
Yes, it's more than that, but that "more" is fragile. Designers might not know what change might ruin the "feel" and they might think the risk of such a change is worth the improvement to the rules.

Games also drastically change feel from table to table, so it's hard for me to really agree that games have an inherent feel.

PCO.Spvnky:
I also think that the roll and keep system is one of the best systems that has come out and so do everybody that I have talked to about the system.
Interesting. What are the basics of that system?
GamerHandle
member, 921 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Sat 28 May 2016
at 19:46
  • msg #10

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

In 1st Edition (d10s) you rolled X number of dice, then depending upon skill/knack, you keep a certain number of those.  That forms your total roll against the target number - you beat it, you win the roll.

The idea being that the bigger number represented more "raw potential" whilst the keep number was the "sustained" value.
engine
member, 95 posts
Sat 28 May 2016
at 20:18
  • msg #11

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky, could you give me an example of what you like about that system?
PCO.Spvnky
member, 255 posts
Sat 28 May 2016
at 23:57
  • msg #12

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

It's simple, it's fast, and yet it can be used to fight massive sea battles and wars.  The game never gets bogged down with die rolling, which allows the story telling to flow better.  It also has drama die in it which allows characters (and npcs)to perform truly wonderful things whey they need to.
Flint_A
member, 507 posts
Sun 29 May 2016
at 00:18
  • msg #13

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

I ran a 7th Sea game and it absolutely got bogged down with die rolling with a large party. I had five players and two of them hired NPCs to fight alongside them, which the system all but encourages. Every fight lasted maybe two rounds but took over half an hour, and I did most of the rolling.
engine
member, 96 posts
Sun 29 May 2016
at 01:42
  • msg #14

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky:
It's simple, it's fast, and yet it can be used to fight massive sea battles and wars.  The game never gets bogged down with die rolling, which allows the story telling to flow better.  It also has drama die in it which allows characters (and npcs)to perform truly wonderful things whey they need to.
Awesome. Any more details you can give me? I don't know anything about the system, and you seem like a real advocate for it.

Flint_A, I'm not personally looking for a balanced critique, just for what people who like the system like about it. Not that you shouldn't post what you want, just that I won't be following up with you on it.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 256 posts
Sun 29 May 2016
at 18:55
  • msg #15

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

Flint_A, how can you possibly expect any game to runs smoothly and the way it was intended when you first run it?  How long did your game last?  I have run games that ran into the 1000s of xp.

The first thing that caught my eye about 7th sea was this, the first two sentences in the GMs guide.

"GM Rule #1:
There Are No Rules.
GM Rule #2:
Cheat Anyway."


"There is really only one rule in 7th Sea, and here it is.

The 7th Sea Golden Rule: Have Fun.
Now, there’s one thing we haven’t told the players, and that there is a second golden rule, but it applies only to Game Masters.

The Second 7th Sea Golden Rule:
If someone isn’t having fun, fix it. Feel free to show your players the second rule if it’s necessary. We hope it isn’t, but if it is, there’s the rule in black and white, clear as crystal."

7th Sea is not supposed to be a game about die rolls I have had sessions where the rolling was so little that it might as well have been considered non-existent and we are talking 8-10 hour sessions.  7th sea is about grand high adventure tales and emotional romance, with a decent splash of intrigue to top it off.  I don't run many games because I don't really feel that I have the knack for them but all of my friends agree that I can spin the heck out of a pirate's tale in 7th sea. If you read the afterword in the player's guide you can get the feel for what the game is supposed to be and if that afterword doesn't jerk at least a few shivers and tears it might just be that 7th sea isn't for you.

When it comes to mechanics?  If you would like to r-mail me we could discuss them more.
engine
member, 97 posts
Sun 29 May 2016
at 22:20
  • msg #16

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 15):

The Golden Rules sound like standard good GMing advice. Always nice to see that in print, though.

Too much dice rolling can be a drag, though I don't see a lack of it as an inherently good thing.

It remains true that people will interpret the same game and the same prose in completely different ways. If they all have fun with it, then it's "for" them, even if they interpret it differently from you.

Complain if you like. I've seen player complaints bring down an entire edition of a popular game and return it, in large part, to a previous edition, complete with all the problems that edition had. I recommend just sticking with the edition that you enjoy, though.

Good luck.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 257 posts
Mon 30 May 2016
at 02:17
  • msg #17

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

Oh I don't think that will happen and I still have all the first edition books.  It was just really heartbreaking to me that I was hoping so much for an improvement.
engine
member, 98 posts
Mon 30 May 2016
at 04:05
  • msg #18

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 17):

I understand the feeling. Was there any aspect of it that, taken apart from the whole, could be considered an improvement? I understand that the whole is not an improvement, in your mind, but could any change in this new edition be considered good?
PCO.Spvnky
member, 258 posts
Mon 30 May 2016
at 08:52
  • msg #19

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

Well, I liked their idea about character advancement requiring story lines to be complete, however I think that they are not really thinking it through when they say that each character needs to go through 5 story lines to advance one dot to rank 5.

They did address the fact that many people complained that there were too many skill knacks (something I never personally had a problem with but I could see how it might bother others who had a problem with the golden rules).  however they took their list of 2-300 skill knacks and turned it into 17 skills.

I do like that they added new magics though.
engine
member, 99 posts
Tue 31 May 2016
at 13:33
  • msg #20

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky:
They did address the fact that many people complained that there were too many skill knacks (something I never personally had a problem with but I could see how it might bother others who had a problem with the golden rules).  however they took their list of 2-300 skill knacks and turned it into 17 skills.
What's the difference between a skill knack and a skill?

How many of those 2-300 skill knacks could a character have? I ask because a game I played trimmed down its skill list and it caused a lot of gnashing of teeth. I liked it though, because I thought it let the game focus more, rather than have too broad a range of built-in approaches to things. And it made the game more like an action movie by making it more possible for a character to be competent with a wider swathe of the total relevant skill set.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 259 posts
Tue 31 May 2016
at 16:51
  • msg #21

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

In 1st ed characters bought Skills and those skills had knacks that came with them, representing what the character would be able to do with the skill.
For Example: the Fencing Skill came with the knacks
Attack(fencing) and Parry (fencing)

Now they have watered it down so far that the skill Weaponry covers ALL weapon skills.
engine
member, 101 posts
Tue 31 May 2016
at 17:02
  • msg #22

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 21):

To me, that seems like it would help bring about the Pirates of the Caribbean feel, in the sense that a character could resort to whatever weapon was to hand, including improvised things (though even games with generalized weapons skills often make improvised attacks very inferior options). But it's fairly common in adventure stories for someone to be able to hold their own, at least for a while, with something they just picked up, simply because they're "good with weapons."

Doesn't Will or someone pick up a hammer to fight with at one point in the first movie? And I think in the second one Elizabeth picks up a rifle we've never seen her use and pulls of a sharpshooter shot with it. Not too realistic, but very cool.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 260 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 03:49
  • msg #23

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

Yes improvised weapons are a very big deal in 7th sea, and yes many characters do use them in the movies, but not everyone does.  The new rules set makes it so that everyone in the movie would be able to do the things that one or two heroes do, which in my personal opinion would be like watching a movie where everyone is a superhero and no one is "normal" which might be interesting for one movie but I am pretty sure the sequal would suck.
tsukoyomi
member, 45 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 03:55
  • msg #24

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

... you do understand that 'improvised weapon' is something that every character that has ever been in a bar brawl scene does, right? and that said scene is a genre staple?
PCO.Spvnky
member, 261 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 05:37
  • msg #25

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

Yes and how many of those character then go off and show maximum proficiency in the axe, and then the rapier, and then the longsword, and then the katana, and then the staff, and so on and so forth.

In 7th sea for example All fencing swords are covered under fencing. All heavy weapons are covered under heavy weapon. All improvised weapons are under dirty fighting.  Certain weapons (usually the off hand weapon for fencing styles) are a bit more specific but generally they categories make sense.
tsukoyomi
member, 46 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 10:52
  • msg #26

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

How often characters show anything other than some arbitrary proficiency with anything they pick up? when the master swordsman picks up a knife or ends up unarmed, he is often just as good with that knife or his hands as he was with the sword, when the clumsy pirate is disarmed and has to rely on improvised fowl to fight back, he is often just as bad with the avian than with the sword or gun prior to being disarmed.

How often do we really see a nuanced weapon-based difference in the genre?

It's about what's fun and cinematic, if the bar one is followed by a chase scene and the player feels like it'd be cool if their character nabs an axe/knife/rock/pidgeon and throws it with deadly precision? why penalize what sounds cool and movie-like for the sake of 'realism' in a genre where it already went out of the window?

It sounds to me like you're having a knee-jerk reaction to a change that helps the game feel more like what it's trying to model.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:42, Wed 01 June 2016.
engine
member, 102 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 14:03
  • msg #27

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky:
Yes improvised weapons are a very big deal in 7th sea, and yes many characters do use them in the movies, but not everyone does.  The new rules set makes it so that everyone in the movie would be able to do the things that one or two heroes do, which in my personal opinion would be like watching a movie where everyone is a superhero and no one is "normal" which might be interesting for one movie but I am pretty sure the sequal would suck.
Yet you just described not only all the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, but all the Marvel movies, all the Star Wars movies, all the Indiana Jones movies, etc. Sure, there are characters in there who just panic and run when there's a problem, but most of the main characters are at least capable of standing against ridiculous odds and situations that would defeat anyone "normal" in the first few seconds.

I'm not arguing with your point that the game isn't giving you what you want, but I will says that I'm not sure, based on what you're saying, what it is you want.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 262 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 16:43
  • msg #28

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

engine:
Yet you just described not only all the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, but all the Marvel movies, all the Star Wars movies, all the Indiana Jones movies, etc. Sure, there are characters in there who just panic and run when there's a problem, but most of the main characters are at least capable of standing against ridiculous odds and situations that would defeat anyone "normal" in the first few seconds.


How heroic would these movies be if everyone on the set was a hero?  That is the point I am making.  Not just the heroes of the movie but also the passengers on the bus that the villain is using as a trap "aw don't worry about it weirdo in a suit we took care of it."
engine
member, 103 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 16:59
  • msg #29

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 28):

I'm not exactly seeing where you're getting that anyone, or the game itself, is suggesting such a thing, but I'm guessing it's that you feel that every character in the game is, explicitly or implicitly, modeled by the rules and makes full use of them. So, if the snot-nosed kid is an ace with a sling-shot then he should have the Weapons skill because that's the only way the game lets you model that. Is that right?

Maybe the rules are saying that, but it seems a lot more like the game is saying that not everything needs to be modeled, and that primarily the focus is on the main characters and some side characters who don't necessarily stick around long enough to demonstrate their prowess with nunchucks, or whatever.

I'm basing my assumption on my experience that people who model things that don't necessarily require modeling, but that they like to model, or like to at least imagine could be modeled. For instance, maybe no one ever takes the Appraise skill, but it has to be there, because otherwise the game world couldn't have a functional economy. Then, when the Appraise skill goes away, those people take issue with it. I'm not saying that's you, but I'm saying that's the kind of thing I've seen.
tsukoyomi
member, 47 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 17:01
  • msg #30

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky:
How heroic would these movies be if everyone on the set was a hero?  That is the point I am making.  Not just the heroes of the movie but also the passengers on the bus that the villain is using as a trap "aw don't worry about it weirdo in a suit we took care of it."

Wouldn't their appearance in the series be so short that whether they can wield a trout better than a pistol would never be a thing that matters? wouldn't the GM, by virtue of the controlling them, be free to Rule 0 that they suck at poultice fighting and hand them a penalty if it ever really matters or if it would enhance a scene?

Wouldn't those people be so low level or whatever 7th sea uses to differentiate 'character' from 'mook' that they just wouldn't appear as 'heroic' as the protagonists and antagonists?
This message was last edited by the user at 17:02, Wed 01 June 2016.
engine
member, 104 posts
Wed 1 Jun 2016
at 17:12
  • msg #31

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

tsukoyomi:
Wouldn't their appearance in the series be so short that whether they can wield a trout better than a pistol would never be a thing that matters? wouldn't the GM, by virtue of the controlling them, be free to Rule 0 that they suck at poultice fighting and hand them a penalty if it ever really matters or if it would enhance a scene?
Heck, maybe if they did all rise up and take on the enemy they could handle them, but no, they're just scared civilians so they'll never know that they're a dead shot with a hen.

Edit: Also, if someone is (and I'm not saying anyone here is) the kind of person who wants to be able to model more than just the main heroes and mooks, that's fine, and I can see how they might have what they consider to be irreconcilable differences with rules that don't enable such modeling. I used to see the rules that way though, and the differences are not necessarily irreconcilable.
This message was last edited by the user at 17:25, Wed 01 June 2016.
Flint_A
member, 508 posts
Mon 6 Jun 2016
at 00:18
  • msg #32

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

PCO.Spvnky:
Flint_A, how can you possibly expect any game to runs smoothly and the way it was intended when you first run it?  How long did your game last?  I have run games that ran into the 1000s of xp.


We played for about 9 months. I was so generous with the xp that in the end they literally conquered the world. (Well, they conquered Eisen. But they had so many favors owed to them by all the other countries that they set up a UN with them in charge, basically.)

We also had sessions where we didn't roll anything for hours. In fact, we mostly avoided the fights because one of two things happened. 1) They allowed the NPC to talk and I convinced them that they should let the NPC live and make some sort of deal with them. This is because 99% of the characters in the 7th Sea books can be sympathized with. (Heck, they even made a deal with Villanova when they could kill him.) 2) They were SO STRONG near the end that I basically said "no rolls, you win" unless they were fighting someone/something extraordinary. (Although they did fight several enemies who were quite extraordinary.)

But when we actually ran the fights, I found they were quite cumbersome. But the regular fights were still okay. We tried a large scale battle once, with thousands of soldiers. Never again. The rules for warfare are just terrible. It took us HOURS and the only reason the party won was that I made the enemy commander act predictable on purpose.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 264 posts
Mon 6 Jun 2016
at 01:10
  • msg #33

Re: 7th Sea 2nd Edition

Large scale battles literally take as long as you want them to, with a minimum of two rounds (three if you do not have an Eisen general school around).
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