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11:04, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Gestalt?

Posted by Lord_Johnny
PCO.Spvnky
member, 239 posts
Wed 11 May 2016
at 19:04
  • msg #29

Re: Gestalt?

truemane:
A trio of non-optimized, non-gestalt characters with a very low point-buy, very little magical gear, and a lot of restrictions on their class and race choices, can still be heroic and a cut above and more than competent, so long as the DM pitches the game world below them.

I would have to disagree with this, unless your version of heroic is beating up on one goblin.  I admit that some people like to play those kind of games but wandering around doing things that even an average farmer could do seems less than fun to me.
truemane
member, 2043 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Wed 11 May 2016
at 20:45
  • msg #30

Re: Gestalt?

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 29):

Well that's just it. Everyone's definition of heroic is different. Your average farmer probably couldn't beat up a single goblin.

But it just illustrates that different people play the game in different ways. And gestalt is just one way. Neither worse, nor better. Just a given way to play a given kind of game.
Lord_Johnny
member, 66 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 00:44
  • msg #31

Re: Gestalt?

truemane:
In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 29):

Well that's just it. Everyone's definition of heroic is different. Your average farmer probably couldn't beat up a single goblin.

Eh, actually the farmer would have to be pretty low on stats to not be able to bear up a single goblin. From a straight CR standpoint, all the goblins (unmodified) I have ever seen have been CR 1/3, with the most dangerous thing about them being that they are more willing to do violence than your average John Brown Farmer. Not that Farmer John shrinks from a brawl in the offing necessarily, but the goblin loves the violence.
BUT, stat wise, size wise, general ability to defend themselves, the farmer would have a distinct advantage. It's the numbers that make goblins dangerous, not the individuals.
truemane
member, 2044 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Thu 12 May 2016
at 01:09
  • msg #32

Re: Gestalt?

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 31):

From a purely mechanical point of view, the goblin probably has the advantage over a (presumably) 1st level Commoner with something close to all 10's in stats. If only because he has a 15 AC, and a +2 to hit. Remember that a CR of 1/3 means that 3 of them should be a 'reasonable' challenge for four 1st level PC's. That's not peanuts to a near total noncombatant.

But that's all just semantics. My point is that the DM controls how hazardous the game world is, not the players. So any particular set of mechanical circumstances can place the PC's above, at, or below, the 'hero' line depending on the power level of the world around them.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 240 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 01:10
  • msg #33

Re: Gestalt?

It depends how that one goblin is played....:)  I love playing goblins.  Considering that a first level goblin starts with a +10 to stealth.  As a starting PC they could start out with a 15 if stealth isn't a class skill or 18 if it is.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 241 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 01:13
  • msg #34

Re: Gestalt?

Which is kind of my point, played correctly a single goblin would pulverize a group of 1st level "A trio of non-optimized, non-gestalt characters with a very low point-buy, very little magical gear, and a lot of restrictions on their class and race choices"  just from the +10 to stealth and it is considered a 1/3 challenge rating creature.
truemane
member, 2045 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Thu 12 May 2016
at 01:52
  • msg #35

Re: Gestalt?

Yeah. Exactly. That's all precisely what I've been saying. It all depends. These value judgments are subjective. There's no one True Way to Play. Etc etc.
Flint_A
member, 502 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 02:14
  • msg #36

Re: Gestalt?

Well, "played correctly", a cat can beat up a single 1st level character. Or a mule can easily wipe a whole party.

Is the +10 from Pathfinder? In 3.5 goblins just have a +5.

As a tangent, the webcomic Goblins has goblins "playing smart" and doing all sorts of things.(As one of the subplots anyway.) It's quite good.
Lord_Johnny
member, 68 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 15:32
  • msg #37

Re: Gestalt?

truemane:
Yeah. Exactly. That's all precisely what I've been saying. It all depends. These value judgments are subjective. There's no one True Way to Play. Etc etc.


So I agree that there isn't a single way to play. That doesn't mean that the others are a true reflection of the game. Goblins are dangerous in the group numbers. Now, while I'm not saying you're wrong, but a CR 1/3 mean 3 creatures are a fight for a party of four? I've NEVER heard that rating before. I'm sorry, but even standard fighters at level 1 are a match for two goblins by themselves. I'm afraid I just can't take the claim you're making about goblins seriously.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 242 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 15:41
  • msg #38

Re: Gestalt?

I bet you dollars to dimes I can take out a party of "A trio of non-optimized, non-gestalt characters with a very low point-buy, very little magical gear, and a lot of restrictions on their class and race choices" with one goblin....:)
Manticore
member, 400 posts
Cthulhu gamed with me
HE lost 2d6 SAN points
Thu 12 May 2016
at 15:47
  • msg #39

Re: Gestalt?

You could do it with 1 kobold, too. Especially one from the infamous Tucker's Kobolds tribe. We're talking a normal party, not the one from Rusty & Co. (a gelatinous cube with bard levels is scary) after all.
T.S.
member, 186 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 15:51
  • [deleted]
  • msg #40

Re: Gestalt?

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 15:57, Thu 12 May 2016.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 243 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 16:00
  • msg #41

Re: Gestalt?

The nastiest low level challenge? Gremlin, Pugwampi, I almost killed a 3rd level ranger IN his favored terrain with one of those guys, lol.
Manticore
member, 401 posts
Cthulhu gamed with me
HE lost 2d6 SAN points
Thu 12 May 2016
at 16:06
  • msg #42

Re: Gestalt?

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 41):

I'm not familiar with Pugwampi. I'll have to look that one up. Tasty Beverage Mimic and Rot Grub are what I'd think of first, for deadly low level monsters (Nilbogs as well, but any campaign where they aren't among the rarest things out there would be scary in and of itself).
Lord_Johnny
member, 69 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 20:02
  • msg #43

Re: Gestalt?

PCO.Spvnky:
I bet you dollars to dimes I can take out a party of "A trio of non-optimized, non-gestalt characters with a very low point-buy, very little magical gear, and a lot of restrictions on their class and race choices" with one goblin....:)


I will take up that challenge. I pick a Human fighter, level 1, Pathfinder vs your two, straight from the bestiary goblins.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 246 posts
Thu 12 May 2016
at 20:38
  • msg #44

Re: Gestalt?

Well that wasn't exactly the challenge but I will accept just for the fun of it...:)  Where will we be doing this challenge though?  It seems kind of silly to make up a game just for this?
bigbadron
moderator, 15085 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 12 May 2016
at 20:41

Re: Gestalt?

Actually you don't really have much choice, unless you take the challenge off-site.  Games can only be played in privately run boards.
Flint_A
member, 504 posts
Fri 13 May 2016
at 12:27
  • msg #46

Re: Gestalt?

Lord_Johnny:
Now, while I'm not saying you're wrong, but a CR 1/3 mean 3 creatures are a fight for a party of four? I've NEVER heard that rating before.


That is the literal meaning of CR.

A monster of CR "N" is an average fight for a party of 4 level "N" characters. As characters can't be less than 1st level, fractional CRs add up. So yes, 3 level 1/3 monsters are an average fight for 4 level 1 characters.

What does "average" mean? That's a little more vague. I don't have my DMG in front of mean, but one such fight is supposed to cost...one fourth? one fifth? something like that of the party's "resources". (HP, spell slots, limited feats, magic items, etc.) Such that if they have five such fights in a row without rest, they have to go rest before having another fight or be screwed.

Or more generally, the fight is not hard but there is SOME risk. For example, one lucky crit by a goblin can take a character into the negatives. Heck, even a regular hit might take out a Wizard. And note that the goblins have bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, they have javelins and they are cowards. Three goblins ambushing the party and flinging javelins can take out someone just in the surprise round. (Ambush doesn't add to the CR/EL.) If even a level 2 party met three goblins, the risk would be much smaller. And there is absolutely zero threat against high level characters, which is why a party of level 9 and up would get 0 xp from this fight. (If the EL is 8 lower than the average level, you get nothing.)

Yes, I'm aware that a single Sleep spell wins this combat and every party with a Wizard will have it. That's not part of the calculation. CRs are calculated for suboptimal (but still decent) parties.

I think every level the DM's supposed to give them one hard fight, a couple of easy fights and a couple of level-appropriate fights. Or something. Haven't looked at the DMG for a long time.
swordchucks
member, 1204 posts
Fri 13 May 2016
at 12:52
  • msg #47

Re: Gestalt?

Flint_A:
So yes, 3 level 1/3 monsters are an average fight for 4 level 1 characters.

I know the math you're using, but it doesn't work directly for critters below CR 1.  A fight with multiple creatures below CR 1 is always one step higher on the CR chart than you might otherwise think (three CR 1/3 monsters is a CR 2 fight - as is a fight with two CR 1/2 monsters or 4 CR 1/4 monsters).  That math seems to work fine once you get past CR 1/2.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG...k/gamemastering.html
willvr
member, 892 posts
Fri 13 May 2016
at 13:47
  • msg #48

Re: Gestalt?

Actually, winning with a sleep spell, at level 1, is a fairly significant portion of the party resources. And at low levels winning initiative is a major thing; so yes, Sleep is taken into account. It's not particularly optimised to have 'Sleep'. Everyone knows about it.
Flint_A
member, 505 posts
Sat 14 May 2016
at 01:17
  • msg #49

Re: Gestalt?

In reply to swordchucks (msg # 47):

That might be the case in Pathfinder, but I have the 3.5 DMG open in front of me right now and 3 1/3 creatures are definitely an EL 1 encounter. There's a pretty nice table on page 49.

For CRs of greater than 1, the rule is two monsters of CR "X" add up to "X+2". There is no other rule in 3.5. (Although adding the mixed pair rule and wiggling a bit gives the same results as the table you linked.)

For CRs below 1, it literally says "see table". As far as I can see in the table, it's "multiply CR with number, round to nearest whole", more or less.

As for a single creature, the EL can apparently be CR+/-1.
Lord_Johnny
member, 71 posts
Sat 14 May 2016
at 01:33
  • msg #50

Re: Gestalt?

In reply to Flint_A (msg # 46):

So, I have always heard that CR was to be roughly consistent with 1 player, not 4. However, let me not be unable to admit I was wrong. I fact checked you, and you are right and I am not. I concede this point.
PCO.Spvnky
member, 247 posts
Sat 14 May 2016
at 01:43
  • msg #51

Re: Gestalt?

Bah, challenge ratings have always been hit or miss.  Have a howler attack your party if you think they are sacrosanct.  lol.
swordchucks
member, 1205 posts
Sat 14 May 2016
at 04:19
  • msg #52

Re: Gestalt?

Flint_A:
For CRs of greater than 1, the rule is two monsters of CR "X" add up to "X+2".

I was extrapolating from that, though the text doesn't seem to back up my interpretation very well.

Regardless, at that low of a level, the CR system is nearly useless.  It's highly volatile and a "CR 1" encounter can easily result in a TPK if dice go really badly.

In the best of times, it's more of an art than a science.
Flint_A
member, 506 posts
Sun 15 May 2016
at 12:13
  • msg #53

Re: Gestalt?

It is quite true that CRs are almost entirely irrelevant, especially at low levels. Orcs are 1/2. Two orcs can easily slaughter a level 1 party if they get the drop. They do 2d4+4/18-20. Are you kidding me? One crit (15% chance) easily sends a character to -10.

D&D 5E seems to be a lot better at handling monsters, for what it's worth.

The reason you might have thought that CRs are consistent with 1 player is that in most D&D games the heroes are overpowered and the DMs knowingly send stronger than prescribed monsters so that the party will level up faster. At least this has been the case in most games I've played or run. I'm not complaining, the few exceptions I played in weren't very fun.
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