Netflix has ordered The Punisher to series.  I thought Jon Bernthal was the best part of Daredevil's season two, so I'm super excited for this.

https://media.netflix.com/en/p...e-punisher-to-series

I'm looking forward to it, because their other Marvel shows have been good, but I've never really understood The Punisher. He always seemed to me to exist as a counter to the "goody-goody" heroes who never kill anyone. I do find it a little tiresome that the good guys are always "knocking out" the bad guys, or putting them in jail where they get out again, but Punisher still never seemed that heroic to me, just damaged.

But, I'm hoping this show will enlighten me about the character, as the others have for Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

I will definitely be watching it.

Woot woot

Well, to be fair, The Flash was locking people up in solitary confinement in circumstances that even the US prison system would consider inhumane.  No toilet facilities, no exercise, not even really room to lay down.  True, the show totally glossed over this, having them step out after weeks of this treatment not only psychologically intact but still totally physically fit... but that really, really bothered me.  Killing them would have been much nicer.

...The following spoiler really is a spoiler, so if you haven't finished the series and are thinking about it, I'd really suggest not looking.

---

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
On the plus side, since it does turn out the professor was an outright villain, it makes sense that he'd guide the others over the moral problems with this.  Totally acceptable villain behavior.  Not cool for a hero.

---

As Superman said, these "no-nonsense" solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel.

In reply to engine (msg # 2):

You write that you don't understand the the Punisher, but you described him perfectly.

With a Luke Cage and an Iron Fist show also coming out before Punisher, I feel skeptical. I think that the group of talent who made Daredevil and Jessica Jones so successful will be stretching themselves too thin on five simultaneous shows. Also, the sort-of-sort-of-not connection between these Hells Kitchen shows and Marvel's current cinematic universe is problematic. That is going to be even more of a difficult tightrope walk as more shows and more movies grow into potential conflict with each other (and most of them set in the same city).

I have been wrong before.

What I don't understand is why people find it entertaining.

Well, it's nothing the comics haven't had to deal with. Sure, they have a bit more freedom to show characters or events in from another series that would plausibly happen in their own, but I haven't noticed too much of a push to do so. "Why didn't they call so-and-so?" or "Why didn't so-and-so show up?" seems to me like it's routinely handwaved. Fans who are bought it can rationalize it to themselves. It's the fans who desperately want those cross-overs who don't willingly accept the lack of them. The same is true for anything that makes a tight, focused story but is also a little bit implausible.

I love the Punisher.

Some people like Warhol paintings.

It's art.  Everyone has their preferences.

In reply to jwneil (msg # 9):

Still I was hoping someone might be able to help me understand the appeal. Oh, well.

I suspect it's a sort of visceral wish fulfillment thing. Like, up to a certain age or maturity level, everyone occasionally flirts with the idea that, with the right motive and the right circumstances, they could be the baddest of dudes.

The Punisher represents that conviction taken to its logical conclusion and allows one to live that fantasy vicariously, without having to actually move to a monastery in China and study real hard, or have your family wiped out by drug lords and swear revenge, or develop a fatal disease and devote the time you have left to wiping out street crime, or even just dropping out and devoting your life to being bad. While Superman or Iron Man or other traditionally heroic figures can be relatable and fun, it's difficult to imagine being them without a lot of mental gymnastics. The Punisher, though? Load up on guns and ammo, her a black trenchcoat and a van, and you, too, could be a bad enough dude to rescue the President.

At a certain period in a young person's life, associated when I went through it with leather dusters, ludicrous amounts of spent ammunition, a well-worn copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook, and heinous amounts of heavy metal and black eyeliner, that's an incredibly seductive draw.

EDIT: Credit where due, large parts of this theory are paraphrased from Neal Stephenson's novel Snow Crash. I regret nothing.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:41, Thu 12 May 2016.

In reply to Odin442 (msg # 11):

I thought that sounded familiar.

Well I can't speak for everyone - but here's why I enjoy the Punisher:

Ever had anything stolen from you?  How'd that make you feel?  The Punisher fulfills our primal need for revenge.  To see the guilty punished without them circumventing the law.  Personally I wish Frank Castle would pay Jerry Sandusky a visit. :)

In the penultimate episode of DD season 2 Frank needed info on a person.  He captured an underling.  The grunt wouldn't talk.  So Frank proceeded to destroy the grunt's face with the butt of his handgun.  Then the grunt talked.

Another reason is that I like protagonists who take out their enemies with certainty. Ever watch the old "La Femme Nikita" on USA way back in the day?  90's I think. Similar kind of work.  Peta Wilson would shoot the bad guys, then put another round in their corpses to make sure they were dead. It eliminates one of the movie/tv tropes I hate the most.

How many times has this happened?  The Good Guy beats the Bad Guy in a fight - the Good Guy moves to kill the Bad Guy - then let's him/her go saying "I'm better than that."  Then the Bad Guy grabs a conveniently dropped weapon and moves to kill the Good Guy with his/her back turned.  But the Good Guy spins and kills the Bad Guy. Part of the reason I love when protagonists kill despicable people in fiction is not having to suffer through that old trope.

The Punisher in DD season two finally got the character right.  I was excited to see that the show didn't compromise on the violence that surrounds the Punisher.

But that's just why I enjoy watching and reading about the character.  Speaking of reading....If you want some good comic runs on the Punisher check out the issues written by Garth Ennis - the same guy who wrote the Preacher series.  Good stuff!!

And Frank shot him anyway.

All superheroes operate from a realm of supernatural certainty. In reality, that's rare. Personal justice is easily misplaced and excessive. The enemies of superheroes readily admit their crimes or are easily tied to them. Any boring evidence gathering or legal processes tend to be glossed over.

That whole trope is just another aspect of that fictional certainty: the audience is shown that the hero had to kill the Bad Guy, and is therefore morally untarnished. It's sad to think that people in the real world rely on that same kind of fiction to justify killing people who merely frighten them.

Thanks for the explanation, though. I think I do get it, and I am interested to see what, if any, steps the show takes to allow the audience to feel that the Punisher's actions are justified. There are lots of old tropes to help accomplish that.

Me too!!

I thought the rooftop debate between Castle and Matt (when he was chained) was a great example of your point.  With Matt arguing that Castle's actions couldn't be justified.  (Which is fantastic when he opts to defend him as a lawyer.)   I love DD's internal conflict with his job and his DD activities.

I'm hoping DD shows up in the Punisher series so we can see more of their dichotomy.