Experience/Short Background
I have over two decades of table top experience and am known by those that I table top with as being a very good storyteller and forgiving in terms of system rules. My experience ranges genres and systems but my specialty is Modern Spy games and Sci-Fi games. I have played a handful of Geo-Pols games in the past and enjoyed them. Based on my love for role playing I decided to take a leap of faith and open up a Mechwarrior game that would be meant to be run solely play by post.

I was able to recruit two of my table top players (My Wife and best friend). This is my first real attempt to do a solely play by post game.  I won’t deny that I am a bit anxious because I pride myself on my work and story.

My game is a rule/mechanic light alternate universe Mechwarrior Game that started in the canon universe of 3161. I had a good run at recruitment with eight signed players before the game started (not counting the above mentioned). The posting rules for the game is a minimum of one post per-week with the understanding that players are to keep up with scenes their characters are involved in. I had done a bit of homework on Play by Post and found that this was kind of the norm from what I saw (Disclaimer: I did not have access to this site at the time. I only stumbled on to this site when I started to look for help.)

It is important to understand that there was a planned Plot Twist that would send the party back in time (3061), in to a universe that has been changed (An alternate universe that I had well created and complete knowledge of). The party would see a universe set up to change the future (IE their present). During the game, they would be able to guide this new universe through connections that they build. Or they could leave the changed universe to its own devises. Or they will be given the opportunity to undo the damage to the timeline and allow the events of their past to come in to being as it ‘should be’. The idea put forward is a moral test for the characters.

The Problem
After the start of the game, I noticed that my player base started to shrink down to its current base of four (including my best friend and Wife). Posts has seemed to become flat and the story has stalled. While they are posting the minimum requirements, the story just doesn’t seem to move forward. I feel like this is a bad omen. I don’t want to press the story, but at the same time I fear the worse.

I don’t know if this is normal for Play by Post games. I would like to add to my player base once more and move the story along. I just don’t know how.

I don’t even know if my online game is in good health or struggling. I fear that I might be applying table top standards to an online game where these two have two different standards.

My Hopes
I know I have a great developed universe with a compelling story. My characters (NPC’s) come to life as you read them. I have been told that my NPC’s take on a life of their own within my games. The world was developed so to allow the players to close their eyes and actually see a world around them. I have drawn in real world perceptions to help weave the make believe world that I have created. The universe is alive with Geo-Political and Sociopolitical webs that crisscross each other. Being my first time at this, I don’t really want this to be a failure.

I would like to find a way to breathe life in to my game but I fear my attempts are falling flat because of my lack of experience in online Play by Post.

So I am looking for any advice or help that the community can offer.

Akira

A Play By Post (or Play By Email, or any non real time game really) generally follows a set cycle if you advance the time scale long enough and it doesn't self destruct before even getting started.

Game starts and goes as it should.  People are enthusiastic and excited for the new shiny game and things go well.

Then real life happens, people flake out, decide X is a problem and quit, etc.  But players leave the game/stop checking in.

Then there's a couple of things a game generally does.

-Continues on with a smaller dedicated core of players

-Recruits new players to bring in fresh perspectives, plot elements, and people for the older players to interact with and breathe life into a stagnating game

-Dies or goes dormant


Given that half the current players are people you are close with in real life, it's probably not a bad idea to open up some communication on the issue with your players.

Find out if there's any scenes or plot threads they'd really like to see introduced/advanced.  Maybe there's some bit of backstory for one of their characters they'd really like to see brought to the forefront that would reignite some enthusiasm.  Maybe they want the group of characters to find a way to accomplish Goal X, and aren't sure how to go about it.

Alternatively it may just be that whatever they're doing now is not really interesting to them as players and you need to find a way to end that story thread and move on to something else.


Find out if they'd like to see new players brought on board.  New players can take on old characters (this can be both beneficial and detrimental) to re-engage storylines that the old characters were part of that perhaps stalled out when the player left.  Or they can bring in new characters full of new plot hooks and other things and generally gin up some enthusiasm with their fresh perspectives.


This might all blow up on you of course, but that's the risk in any game, either online or around a table.  For every epic campaign that players still talk about and reference years after it's over, there's an uncountable number of games that blew up at the beginning or along the way, or just petered out and died.

Well, seeing as how nauthiz posted all of my advice at once, I'll just reiterate:

Talk to your players about why your game isn't going well, they'll certainly know better than us. It seems like you've done your homework and you've, allegedly, got some skills as a GM. So... talk to them. That's all I got. *thumbs up*

I find that this happens especially when a scene is dragging on for longer then it worked. Usually a big intro scene helps inject some energy and eventually it just dies.

I do one of two things

1) If we're just marching towards an obvious objective, hit the fast forward button. PbP goes by slow enough that there's no reason to run through every single encounter in a dungeon if they don't really matter in the long run. Just simulate a couple of the scrub battles and then go straight to the big finale.

2) BLOW STUFF UP! I had a scene in a super hero games that was dying...BAM ATTACK OF AN ASSORTMENT OF VILLAINS AAHHHH HIGH ENERGY!!!

Pacing is important and sometimes it helps to take a Michael Bay approach and just blow stuff up in one way or another to inject some energy.


The burden is often on the GM to keep life injected into the game. Whenever you feel a thread is going all 'ho-hum' then you're the first line of defense to forcibly inject some life into the party.

On the topic of communication, one thing that I've found that works for me (that, admittedly, not all players might be comfortable with) is to use gmail to make an account for your main character in the game. It allows you to maintain anonymity while communicating more in live time - and this works especially well for me in games where I have a co-gm. Google docs is a lifesaver when I'm trying to compose an especially large post and I need someone else's input on it. It makes everything so much easier when communicating - and as a gm I have the hangouts app on my phone, so if a player needs a quick answer I can usually respond within the hour.

You don't say how long your game has been running/how many posts have been made. I often think one of the most misleading elements in comparing f2f v. PbP games is the scale of time.

Thinking about my first session with a new tabletop group, even if it includes some known players, I think the beginning is somewhat slow and stilted. People worry about hogging the focus (or don't worry and just bathe in limelight) or they don't want strangers to think they're too over-the-top and hide their light, or they're shy and hang back or they fear they'll be ridiculed for being nooks and making a mistake about the genre or setting.

By the end of the evening (please gods) they've become so wrapped up in the story and characters that they forget these fears. And they've come to trust their GM to be a collaborative player. But that probably takes a couple hundred 'posts' in the course of that first session.

The equivalent in pbp might take a month or more. Plus you don't have the benefit of nonverbal communication -- nods and smiles and thumbs up and high fives -- to help everyone feel at home.

Add to this the fact that every time someone logs out of the game, they have to actively decide to come back. AND they've got real life potentialy getting in the way every time. It's awfully easy to drop out when nobody knows your name.

I don't have any great advice on how your particular game could be better. Others have covered most of that. But do keep in mind how difficult this form is.

You are right and I am sorry for not including that.

I didn't even think the scale was important to mention.

As I am used to running long term games (18mo or greater). The last game I ran, ran for two and half years with a core group of four players and three to four short term players.

Sitting here reading everyone's replies and now yours (Gaffer), I think I can see the origin of my fears(and mistake) are.

When I plan out a game/world for Table Top. I build the world/universe and give a remarkable level of details. It is this level of imagination that allows my worlds/universes to come alive for my players.

Yes, yes, I know. You can't think of everything. And your right, I don't cover every minor detail. But what I do do is I create concepts for NPC's, factions and regions. This allows me to easily address situations that I couldn't foresee. Once I have my world/universe built, I create the game within this world. The very reason why fate has called upon the characters. Because of the way I create my games, it is easy for my players to move from scene to scene while gaining information and contacts. Because of this, I am used to my games moving at fast pace where a lot is covered.

My game, which we are speaking about right now kicked off in Mid October, has been crawling at such a slow pace. What should have taken one maybe two gaming sessions (table top that is) is still dragging.

And based off of what I have read so far, I am starting to think that I am the one at fault. As praguepride suggested, I think I am forcing the game to drag by allowing the players to meet whom ever they want, speak with whom ever they want and do whatever they want. I think I need to force the game in to a better gear and not allow my players to idol. Am I understanding the suggestions correctly?

I am so very grateful to what everyone has added so far.

Akira

I want to say, Akira, that you are an exceptional individual. You are uncommonly willing to hear others' ideas and give them serious consideration. Bravo.

I came to PbP from a decade or more spent mostly writing and running convention games. With a four-hour limit, I've learned that I have to streamline the story. In my stories here I tend to follow the same principle. I think it helps keep things moving.

I jumped into PbP games much in the same situation as you did. I had a great Idea for a "Standard" RPG session/campaign and several people were moving away. They directed me here so I could run this for everyone. Here are a few things I quickly discovered.

Table Top rhythm is NO WHERE NEAR PbP. The spontaneous nature of "the table" tends to drive things on it's own accord. Nothing kills a players own desire to play is not being able to stay in the rhythm. Player A posts something before work, Player B does not have time to post. By the time Player B gets home to post Both Player C and A have begun a conversation/event and your day spent thinking of things to say/do are for nothing.

What could be simple events at a table can easily take over a month in PbP time. As a GM I tend to favor Role over Roll. As a result, in spite of my best efforts, The players who are around to favor Roll over Role tend to get "forgotten" in PbP. If you are going to be a Wallflower in PbP, given the typical response/Counter-response time, then you are going to end usually forgotten by all the players. Sadly I have to be harsh and say that this is the players own fault. A GM can only attempt to include the player so much before even they tend to give up.

As someone stated before, Action. It does not have to be combat, BUT it has to give the impression of suspense/emergency. This either wakes a player up, or solidifies that they are simply not going to be around much longer. This may sound draconian but move on, You can not force someone to log in and post, don't beat yourself up or think that you are doing a bad job. GM/Player styles may simply differ to much.

Alas, I can see myself in that mirror, too, It's all too easy to become absorbed in the detail of your own world while you present a confusing array of options to your players. I need to get my own finger out. Though as Mrrshann618 says, there is a limit to what any GM can do to include wallflowers. Waiting for wallflowers to post, in an attempt to include them, only slows the pace further. It's a particular failing of mine, and a difficult one to reverse.

PbP is a completely different beast, and all PbP games have a tendency to haemorrhage players at an alarming rate, whether they are good or bad. This can often cause them to stall once the novelty has worn off. If your game can run with fewer PCs, that's great (provided they don't drop out too) otherwise you'll need to recruit - and you'll probably need to recruit repeatedly throughout the life of your game. As Gaffer suggests, anonymity and dedication don't make good bedfellows.

Good luck with your offsite game, and I hope you create one or two here, too. :)

It sounds as if your players don't really have a sense that there is a specific storyline that you intend for them to follow.  As mentioned, PbP games don't generally do well if the plotline isn't pushed, somewhat (I know some would argue that point with me, but my experience has been that 'sandbox' games, where players are allowed to do whatever they wish with minimal plot input from the GM, tend to draw a lot of attention at first...and then wither quickly as people get the feeling that they aren't really doing anything in the game.)

I think it's a great idea to have a fleshed-out setting for the game...I'm a player who often winds up with hare-brained ideas that involve elements that many players would overlook or dismiss, so I can appreciate having well-developed NPCs around.  That being said, a basic tenet of storytelling/screenwriting/writing in general is that conflict drives the story, whether that's active battle or Man fighting with his own morality or people arguing about the best way to get stuff done.  But without some kind of conflict to create dramatic tension, the storyline kind of drifts.  People like to feel like they're actually getting something done.

It doesn't have to be a case of 'leap directly to the heart of the plotline.'  You can still maintain the plot twist...but you need to have your PCs doing something more than interacting with NPCs and each other (that should be happening while they're doing stuff, anyway.)  What the 'something' they want to accomplish should be, I can't answer...that depends largely on the players.  Most people I know play Mechwarrior to be involved in fighting mechs, however...but sometimes you do wind up with a player that wants to explore a potential romance with an NPC, or set up a side business, or whatever.  Sometimes you wind up with a whole group of them.  But, while it's tempting to say, "They're having fun with that, I'll let it run for awhile," the game, like Real Life, should have the option to trump these side interests with more pressing matters (I mean, I'd love to spend weeks on end working on my Mandalorian armor, but I've gotta pay bills--that means skipping what I want to do in order to go to work.  Similar principle in the game...players are developing relationships with NPCs, but Enemy DuJour decides it's time to press an attack and the relationship takes a back seat because there's no relationship if the Enemy kills you...)

And it's easier (and, arguably, better) to push those situations early, before players get a chance to get sidetracked by the little diversions...especially with the kind of plot twist you've described, where everything they've invested time in at early points in the game will be wrenched away and beyond retrieval.  If you let them get too invested in that, when you throw the wrench in the works, they feel cheated, like they've sunk all this time and effort into something that you just arbitrarily took away from them (some may look at it and realize, "Okay, FINALLY, we're getting to the meat of the story here!" but it can and often does go the other way.)

So, yeah.  Push your storyline.  Or push A storyline, even if it isn't your primary plot.  Get them engaged in something, give them a chance to feel like they're actually moving the story forward, rather than just sitting in place and observing the world around them.

I get your game loves, mine are similar.  Currently running a Delta Green game (think 007 meets X-Files meets Lovecraft) and a Battletech Inner Sphere at War game.

A few of the things I've noticed over the years of pbp:

The posters fall into a few types
1) The first poster - This one tries to be the first to post after the GM.
2) The last poster - This one tries to get in the final word before the GM speaks.
3) The wallflower - This one tends to be be either short and undescriptive or has long posts, but everything is internal dialog.  Either way their is little interaction with other players.
4) The replier - This one is almost a wallflower, as least until someone starts an interaction with them.  Then it's one man.

Mind you, this isn't really so much play styles as post styles.  And you almost HAVE to have a 'First Poster' otherwise nothing ever happens.

A few points, some covered by others, some not.
1) Expect to lose more than half your starting players and then more along the way.  PbP has a horrid attrition rate where F2F people have a social contract to return to a point.
2) My rule as GM: Nudge, nudge, Put your foot down.  On any other rule of the game.
3) Have an expected posting rate, but let the players set it, then make them keep it.  Allow RL to occasionally rear it's head, but don't be afraid to take over for a player.
4) Don't be afraid to call a player out via PM or email.
5) Don't let feuds start.  They Kill games.
6) Don't be afraid to push the characters in various ways.  A PM stating that their character knows he/she is in for it with the CO if they don't get X job accomplished.
7) Occasionally ask the players what they want, what they are looking for in the game.  Get ready to side track if necessary.  It sucks to have a large elaborate plot and the PCs all make a left turn on you, but they might all be happy making that left.

THIS ^^^
To give an example of my only surviving game here. Started with 8, Slowly dwindled to 4, Back up to 6, lost 2, Gained 1, lost 1, gained 1, then after a long time later was approached by someone who found the game on accident when I was not asking for players.

Current total 6, 1 of which has their posting rate slowly dwindling so not sure how much longer they are going to last. 2 original players are still in the game and the game has ran for over a year at this point.




Do this. Also ask, specifically if they are not familiar to you, if there are any communication issues/quirks to help smooth the GM style over at PbP medium. PbP has a far more diverse GM toolset when compared to tabletop.

I've played in a few forum-based play-by-post games in the old Spinnerette forums, and yes, there is a problem with player attrition, RL drama, military service, travel and sporadic internet access, and personal drama are all factors.

I mostly compensated for the fallow periods with "cattle calls" at the other communities, forums and imageboards I frequent, and occasionally tried roping my old tabletop RP friends from school into games.

You really have to allow for player dieoff and structure your campaign for a fluid lineup, allow players to drop out and come back if they have to, keep slots open for late recruits, and find ways to recruit that won't get you tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail, lol.

For your setting specifically, it might be interesting to throw in characters native to this timeline, who might have their own opinions on how they'd like their future to play out.


Say, if you're doing alt-universe Mechwarrior, you might grok CSS Stavag, he writes a massive multiversal crossover with elements of MW and Gundam, usually I loath this kind of THROW IT ALL IN fic, but his actually works IMO...
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/1183470/CSS-Stravag

I have to say the truth sucks when you see it. But you can't deny it.

Based on what I am reading here so far and my own experience, it would appear that I have bitten off more than I can chew.

The best course of action that I can think of is to suspend my game for the time being. For the mean time, I guess I will take part in a game or two and see if I can learn more about who these games work and play out. Clearly there is much more to these kinds of games than I first imagined. As I build my experience in PbP RPG's I will see if I can manage to pull one off much later down the road.

I want to thank everyone for their advice.



Akira
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was the wrong forum, at 02:26, Mon 18 Apr 2016.

Based on what you have told us, I'm not sure that suspending your game is the best course of action. Your game does not appear to be any worse (and in its richness perhaps significantly better) than anyone else's PbP game. With 4 steady core players, there's no reason it can't continue.

You stated in your original post that:


PbP games are like FtF games with the brakes stuck on! They are ALL like that, it's not your fault. As you describe it, you game is NOT struggling, it's perfectly normal by PbP standards.

However, it is in the nature of PbP games that you frequently have to get out and push. You MUST 'press the story' and keep nudging players into activity. You MUST recruit, re-recruit, and re-recruit again. This is perfectly normal for PbP.

You also say:



Complex plots can fall flat in PbP games simply because of their drawn-out nature. Players might recall some plot nuance they heard an hour ago, but they won't remember it from a post they read three weeks ago (unless they are detail nuts like you and me). To an extent, PbP plots have to be 'dumbed down'. Enjoy the richness of your world for yourself behind the scenes, but don't expect your players to pick up on it all. Make sure that any clues you offer to your players jump out and slap them in the face - and then slap them in the face again, just to make sure.

With a novel, the watchword is 'show, don't tell'. In a PbP game it's 'yell, don't tell'. If the so-called 'obvious' doesn't scream out at your players, they'll utterly miss it over the weeks and months of gaming.

The formula for a successful PbP game is simple enough, it's:

Plot, nudge, nudge, recruit, nudge, slap, slap, nudge, nudge, recruit, nudge, slap, slap, nudge, recruit.

Don't be disillusioned. Go recruit some more players, slap them in the face with a couple of clues, and keep your wonderful, rich and precious world alive. :)

I had much the same reaction as icosa when I read that. You're too valuable a resource to players to shut down like that.

Keep plugging.

The great thing about PbP games is, your players don't necessarily realize how large the scope of your game is.  You bit off more than you can chew?  Fine...spit it back out and cut it into smaller pieces.  Nobody's gonna notice...*grin*

I haven't even tried to play Mechwarrior in twenty years, and your game sounds incredibly intriguing.  It would be a shame to fold it up and walk away with so much work already in place.  Just re-evaluate your approach to it, and realize that you have to work harder to keep things moving along with PbP games than you do in a FtF environment.  If you've got a core group of players who are into the game and willing to stick with it, keep running...

One game I'm in has almost 49000 posts, and has been running for over five years.  Out of the original six or seven players, I'm the only one who's still there (well, if you count the GM, there's two of us).  But when things dwindled down to him and me and maybe two other active players, he didn't give up...he had things set up so it was easy to bring new players in (sometimes it was a little too easy, but that's a different story), he kept recruiting and adding new players...some stayed, most didn't, but we're now at a point where we've got five or so players (some with multiple characters) who've been playing a year or more, another three players that joined within the last three months who are still pretty active, and another three or four players who are hit-or-miss on activity right now (RL situations keep getting in the way...)

Just because the game isn't running at breakneck speed, and has lagged from its initial burst of enthusiasm, doesn't mean it's dead.  Nurse it along and make allowances for players' RL conflicts, and you may find yourself delighted at the results.

Dang, when I tried running a game I had similar results Facemaker.

Then again from my understanding PTU does not seem to be very popular here.

I have to concur. Especially about nuances. I've dropped SO MANY HINTS as to the weakness of these things that are dogging my group. I swear I drop one at least once a week. I swear that some were nearly obvious when an NPC made a mention of a specific incident. It is that same thing, they can remember after an hour, but not after 3 days of soul wrecking work between posts.

Also remember that in some cases your players are not even your own native tongue. Sometimes translations and slang words really destroy your imagery, especially when trying to drop hints.

It could be like Heroes Unlimited and how lot of players here, do not know, that Heroes Unlimited is part of the Palladium game system.  Which usually doesn't help, since most players don't like the Palladium game system (particularly character creation, where it is its worst in systems that do not use an education system or MOS training).

I laughed so hard - coca cola just shot out of my nose =).

At first I thought you meant a real-life perspective on that, and immediately my brain took me back to IET/AIT.  oi!