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04:53, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder.

Posted by Illfirin
Illfirin
member, 19 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 17:07
  • msg #8

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

I dont think it would be as big of an issue as you guys seems to think it is. I mean a character has to make 13 DC 15 checks to go from 10 to 11. If checks. Thats what? A session sometimes? So sure you could go do your solo climbing session and try and work up your str, meanwhile everyone else is ignoring your existence.
Tyr Hawk
member, 60 posts
You know that one guy?
Yeah, that's me.
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 17:25
  • msg #9

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

Illfirin:
I dont think it would be as big of an issue as you guys seems to think it is. I mean a character has to make 13 DC 15 checks to go from 10 to 11. If checks. Thats what? A session sometimes? So sure you could go do your solo climbing session and try and work up your str, meanwhile everyone else is ignoring your existence.

It's a session in some cases, but in a longer campaign where not every single day is roleplayed out/important, then you've got a lot of downtime. If you're going to make every hour In-Character important, then sure, it makes sense that it would be ill-advised to go off and climb for a whole day. If you've got anyone that requires only half sleep though, or if you've got a few days of uneventful travel time, that's downtime, and that's the time when making 13 checks doesn't take away from a character's participation in the game or with the party.

In short: A decent idea for action-packed campaigns, but definitely a bit of a game-breaker otherwise.

Just adding in two cents of explanation ;)
Illfirin
member, 20 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 17:33
  • msg #10

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

Well isn't that just when you should be like "This is only for rolled skill checks and not for downtime actions or unrolled skill checks (IE Skill Mastery)"
darknash
member, 86 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 17:47
  • msg #11

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

So again, are you proposing this instead of or in addition to the point you get ever 4 levels? And are you DMing this?
truemane
member, 1981 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:05
  • msg #12

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

In reply to Illfirin (msg # 8):

That's not even really the issue. It's just that, in order for a thing like this to make any sense at all, you'd need a whole slew of guidelines and rules surrounding it, and still it would probably wind up causing more trouble than it's worth.

Let's take Climb, since that's the example everyone's using.

You have 10 Strength and you want to get to 11. Which is 75,000 XP (difference between 10 and 11 on the Slow Progression Chart: 235,000 - 160,000).

A CR15 Climb check would be worth 12,800 (CR15 Encounter divided by 4).

That's 6 successful checks.

A DC Climb check would be a natural wall with adequate handholds, a tree, or lifting yourself up if you're dangling by your hands.

So, at 10 Strength you're going to succeed in a DC15 check 1 in 4 times (even more if you have a Climber's Kit for the +2). So that means you need to make 24 checks, on average. At 6 seconds (1 Standard Action) per check, that'll take you 144 seconds. Or just over two minutes.

So you don't even need a whole session. While your party is paused at a crossroads, you go to the nearest tree and hop up and grab a branch just above your head and lift yourself up 24 times. Boom. Now you have 11 Strength.

Scaling that up and you get:
-3 minutes to make 13
-4 minutes to make 14
-4.5 minutes to get 15
-6.5 for 16
-just under 8 for 17
-just under 11 for 18
-14 minutes for 19
-20 for 20

So all in all, 96 minutes of pull-ups will take you from 10 Strength to 20. Assuming all 10's, and a slew of DC 15 Skill checks, an Elf (who only sleeps four hours) could have all 20's in all their stats in three days. A Warforged could do it in one long night.

Which is clearly absurd. Which means that, for the system not to be used in such a clearly absurd fashion, you'd need to make up a bunch of other rules to prevent it. And thereby add a whole 'nother level of annoying mechanical minutiae to a game that's already swimming in it.

EDIT: And yes, I suppose if you only counted checks made within the bounds of an actual Encounter, then yes, it becomes more manageable, but far less 'realistic.' What difference does it make if I do a pull up if a Troll is chasing me vs just doing it at night before bed? And, if you're doing it that way, the DM has absolute control over when and where you get to make a check. At which point, they might as well just give the players an attribute increase every few levels and be done with it.
This message was last edited by the user at 18:11, Thu 11 June 2015.
Tyr Hawk
member, 61 posts
You know that one guy?
Yeah, that's me.
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:12
  • msg #13

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

Illfirin:
Well isn't that just when you should be like "This is only for rolled skill checks and not for downtime actions or unrolled skill checks (IE Skill Mastery)"

I think the only problem with this ruling is that it breaks consistency. Why wouldn't downtime count for training? Why doesn't the cliff I climbed for fun count in training my strength as opposed to the shorter one I climbed for the adventure? Why doesn't three days of climbing Everest count just because I do it in my spare time as opposed to 6 seconds climbing up to a window for plot?

It's a fair ruling, don't get me wrong, but it makes no logical sense In-game, only OOC as a means of stifling character progression.

Yes, the system is full of unrealistic things as is (Leveling up? What's that noise?), but this one would sort of take the cake for me.

Again, just my two cents. I don't even play DnD anymore because there are systems that already do this sort of thing and do it neatly enough. ^_^
swordchucks
member, 930 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:16
  • msg #14

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

I think the inherent problem is that you're adding complexity to a system in a way that it doesn't handle very well.  If we were talking a point-based system, this stuff is already in there.  Because you're in a level-based system, it doesn't work as well.

If I were seriously thinking about doing something this in a d20 based system, I'd just throw extra stat points in at every level and leave it at that.
Illfirin
member, 21 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:19
  • msg #15

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

darknash:
So again, are you proposing this instead of or in addition to the point you get ever 4 levels? And are you DMing this?



I am not 100% sure if it would be instead of or in addition to.

In reply to truemane (msg # 12):

Guess my issue with your example is
A) I dont imagine people wanting to sit and roll hundreds of skill checks
B) I personally have never played with a player who acts like that.
Illfirin
member, 22 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:21
  • msg #16

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

I feel like maybe this is the sort of thing that should be play tested at least.... Ugh but that means I would have to run it, and to be frank I hate running online games.
truemane
member, 1982 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:26
  • msg #17

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

In reply to Illfirin (msg # 15):

No, nor me. I just ran the most absurd example to show that adding this to your system is going to have unintended consequences. If someone sits down at your table to roll several hundred skill checks, you might be justified in tossing them off the table.

But there's going to be a whole massive grey area between that and not doing it at all. How many checks can someone make? How many in a row? Can each player make one before bed? And/or another on in the morning? Does it have to be during an encounter? And what, precisely, determines an encounter?

I guess I was saying that it really isn't that much effort, system-wise. So if you allow your players to train at their attributes during downtime, even if they don't go to absurd lengths, they'll either level up really fast OR you'll have to artificially put the breaks on them.

Because you can find time and reason for an attribute check almost anywhere, any time.
GamerHandle
member, 726 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 18:53
  • msg #18

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

Sounds a lot like RuneQuest.
nuric
member, 2844 posts
Love D&D,superhero games
Not very computer savvy
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 19:13
  • msg #19

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

I was playing in a homebrew system years ago that was loosely based on 1st edition D&D where the DM allowed "stat training", where you could, over the course of a month, train with a professional teacher to try to increase a stat one point higher.

It was usually done in "the off season", so there was no way to do it quickly or during adventures, and you had to pay in advance for the training, then roll to see if you were successful.  And the higher the stat, the more difficult it was to raise.

In this game, stats were all done with 3d6, so they were a bit lower to begin with anyway, so it was a fun way to improve things.

For example, a person with a 10 Strength would pay his fee (usually a few gold), and train for a month.  Then they'd roll 3d6.
If they rolled a 10 or higher, they'd go up one point to 11.
In theory, they could take another month and do it again, paying again and taking another month, and if they rolled 3d6 and got an 11 or higher, they went up to a 12.

Now, when you were trying to train a higher stat, like say a fighter training who already had a 17 strength, you had to roll a 17 or higher on 3d6.  The odds were definitely against you successfully improving to an 18.
The rationale was that since (at least for the old system) 18 was normal human maximum for strength, it was much harder to improve it that high, whereas a normal strength person had a relatively easier time getting in shape enough to go above average (i.e. from 10 to 11).

In a 3rd edition game, the prices might be more expensive, like 100 or 1000 gp per month, and with the cumulatively lower chance to succeed this makes for a more balanced way to let people improve stats without making god like people.
swordchucks
member, 931 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 19:23
  • msg #20

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

This reminds me of a Korean manhwa called "The Gamer" ( http://the-gamer.wikia.com/wiki/The_Gamer_Wiki ).  I've never read the actual manhwa, but I follow a few fanfiction communities around the net that have eagerly latched on to the concepts of it and presented it in various ways.  At it's heart, the stat system in The Gamer works like this.  You gain levels in stats by doing stuff.

Now, fanfiction being what it is, it invariably turns into people doing almost ridiculous amounts of things to grind out levels as quickly as possible.

That's what this lends itself to...

And the thing is, if the system rewards you for doing things, then people do things.  That's why the concept of "talking through problems" wasn't really a part of the original D&D.  Your rewards came from killing things, so people killed things.

You're shifting that paradigm, but you're not changing it.




Issue #1: Why leave home without maxxed stats?

In a world where you can climb a wall or solve riddles to rise stats, why would any adventurer venture out into possible death without maxxed out stats?  You can artificially crunch time on players sometimes... but it never lasts.  It can't be perpetual.

Issue #2: How strong are the commoners?

In general, it's desirable to have a system that works for everyone in your game world and not just folks with a magical P on their foreheads.

Your average farmer makes a bunch of strength checks every day.  Under this system, a guy that's spent ten years farming should have a maxxed out strength.  Do the farmers carry the horses home if they're tired at the end of the day?

Issue #3: Do you even lift, bro?

There's a disconnect between stat leveling and character leveling in this system.  I'm not a big fan of "leveling" systems, in general, but it makes no sense that the fighter that spends a decade lifting progressively bigger weights should be more powerful than the guy that spent a decade waging a war against goblinoids, only making checks when he needs to.

Issue #4: You call that immersion?

The problem with artificial limits is that they're, well, artificial.  Oh, I can get experience from climbing the wall, but only once per day.  Or once per particular wall.  Or once per whatever.  It's like running into the edge of the map and seeing the next thing, but some invisible force stops you from going farther.

Issue #5: Are you hammering a square peg into a round hole?

There are other systems out there that include similar mechanics to this, but that don't have D&D/PF's other baggage to make it not work.  For instance, GURPS gives you a character point in a skill if you spend so many hundreds of hours studying or being taught that skill.  Many other systems require you to only spend points you gain at levels when you have used a skill during that level (or you failed at it or you critically succeeded at it or whatever).
truemane
member, 1983 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 20:18
  • msg #21

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

swordchucks said all the things I was trying to say way better than I managed to say them.
Piestar
member, 559 posts
once upon a time...
...there was a little pie
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 23:07
  • msg #22

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

I find the idea interesting. As one person mentioned, it rings a bit of Runequest, but it also reminds me of Rolemaster which had your current stat, and your maximum potential for that stat as well.

The fact that the bonus goes to a stat that was actually used is nice as well. The 3.5 thing where any stat can go up usually ends up being one you've used a lot, but could actually go to something you've never used at all.

I think instead of all that math however, I would use the simpler Runequest model where you would roll (in DnD I guess a d20?) and you only got the +1 bonus if you rolled above your current stat, thus making lower stats easier to improve, but only if used.

Being rather old school about these things, I think i would keep the max at 18 for this method, but that's a 'flavor to taste' sort of decision.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 901 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 23:53
  • msg #23

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

Some partial solutions,
a task must be of a minimum difficulty based on your current stat in order to roll progression.

each roll is made over time regardless of actions performed, say once a week. If during the week significant use of a stat was made, such as training, contests, combat, etc, the xp potential goes up. If only a low level of use, the check is to avoid regression. If no use was made, such as when in a coma, the stat can lose xp.

a farmer works a set level of say DC13 strength, so they can only improve up to 13, after that the checks simply maintain that level.


Also, min maxing the real world would work, but few people actually do it. Why? Build the same factor into the game.
willvr
member, 723 posts
Thu 11 Jun 2015
at 23:56
  • msg #24

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

I just think you're spending a lot of time trying to do something in DnD; which is probably better managed than you'd be able to; by other systems.

I have no real problems with DnD; but I acknowledge it's shortcomings. Just like I wouldn't take one of the many skill-based systems out there and trying to graft a class-level base to it; this feels the same but the other way around.
swordchucks
member, 932 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2015
at 00:48
  • msg #25

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

Given the numbers proposed...

Why not go with every time you roll a crit, you record a point.  Every time an opponent rolls a 1 while trying to resist / oppose you, you record a point.  When you get points equal to the attribute, it goes up one.

Slower and more dependent on critical/fumble results.  If you're assuming most folks rely on their passive scores for getting through life (essentially taking 10 on everything), then they'll never see stat improvements.  Then again, they're not struggling for their lives, so there's that.
Illfirin
member, 23 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2015
at 04:14
  • msg #26

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

DarkLightHitomi:
Some partial solutions,
a task must be of a minimum difficulty based on your current stat in order to roll progression.

a farmer works a set level of say DC13 strength, so they can only improve up to 13, after that the checks simply maintain that level.


I really enjoy this as a solution. So Climbing and Swimming every day at DC 15 could only ever get your Strength to 15.

~~~~~

Mean while, anyone want to try and break this system for me? Will open a LFP shortly
meschlum
member, 157 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2015
at 19:35
  • msg #27

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

In D&D 3.x, there is one skill that uses Constitution: Concentration, available to spellcasters only.

In Pathfinder, there are none.

So Constitution becomes the god stat, and only spellcasters can become tougher with training. Talk about unintended consequences.


If you have no ranks in a skill, your maximum roll is Attribute modifier + 20, which gives a 'natural' limit of 30 to any attribute (10 modifier + 20 roll = can't get any higher). With ranks, you can go to 33 + level, absent any added bonuses.


At CR 25, you get 1.6 million xp for an encounter, enough to level up quite a bit (and xp at higher CR must be even faster). The xp award is about halved for every 2 CR less, so you get the best xp payoff, on average, for max CR - 1 and max CR - 3 challenges. So with a +1 from a guidance cantrip, you want CR 20 (attribute 10) to 30 (attribute 30) (or more for even faster advancement).


With magic items granting skill bonuses, it's easy (if you have the money) to guarantee success at most skills. Even masterwork tools are helpful here.


The following is for Pathfinder.

Strength

Climb is where it's at. DCs go from 0 (steep slope) to 35 (slippery wall), so you have a simple training regimen ahead of you. A climbing kit gives a +2, so untrained climbers cap out at 30 strength (trained go to 35).

Dexterity

From Acrobatics, we learn that jumping had a DC equal to the distance covered, or doubled without an initial run. So you can get perfectly graded DCs up to DC 60 without bothering about creating a complex balancing challenge. Untrained jumpers get to Dex 30, trained climbers with access to magic have no real limit (expeditious retreat gives +30 move, so DCs up to 120).

Constitution

No skills use Constitution, so you're stuck with whatever you got at character creation. Be a human or half-orc.

Intelligence

Most Intelligence skills require training, but fortunately Craft does not. Better still, Composite bows have customizable DCs, from 15 to any number you'd like to name (just set the Strength bonus high enough). Still, it's extremely slow and expensive to work with. Who knew that attaching a solid cable to an iron bar was so time consuming and intellectually rewarding?

The other option is Knowledge. Untrained, it goes up to DC 10, so by repeatedly telling someone which god is worshipped in their church, and showing them the holy symbol, you can guarantee that they'll reach Intelligence 10.

Trained, you have a DC of 25 + Spell level to identify a spell that just targetted you, so a wizard who slowly and repeatedly casts a cantrip to turn you purple will raise your Intelligence to 25 at a blistering pace (thanks to high xp awards). Since you're trained, you have a +4 bonus at least, so you could reach Int 34 from exposure to spells.

Monsters give DC up to 40 (rare, CR 25 Tarrasque, ignoring demon lords), so there is a hard cap of 40 Intelligence, unless you count getting extra facts about a monster as higher CR, in which case there are no limits.

In any case, trained people can teach each other to reach stratospheric levels of Intelligence by just repeating facts about ancient dragons until they sink in. Great Wyrm Red Dragons have fire breath. Congratulations, you just got a few hundred thousand Intelligence xp! They have wings. Have more xp! They are red in color. Even more!

Wisdom

Perception is ideal. Put on a blindfold, and listen for someone walking nearby. That's DC 10. Then have the person walk 10 feet away. DC 11. Repeat at all convenient distances until your Wisdom is as high as you need it to be. Given adventurers are often ambushed, this is a skill you'd want to get anyway.

At a base DC 15, have people nearby whisper important facts about Great Wyrm Red Dragons, combining multiple forms of training!

Charisma

Perform has DCs going up to 30, so if you have the time you can eventually hit the limit. Disguise would be ideal (with a Hat of Disguise, it takes 1 round to make a new check), but no DCs are specified. If it's allowed, it's your path to nigh unlimited Charisma.

Diplomacy is an option, as making repeated requests can be used to ramp up the DC as high as you want, but failing checks tends to be problematic (at bit like with Bluff or Intimidate).

For Charisma up to 25, you can use the 'Push an Animal' option from Handle Animal, which can be used untrained. Insist that your dog fetch a stick often enough, and your Charisma will rise (quite fast, what with 1.6 million xp per success). If the animal is hurt, you can get to 27.

If you're trained, Use Magic Device allows you to do fairly well with scrolls. Get a pile of scrolls with cantrips on them and try to decipher them, for DC 25. Reading higher level scrolls is more epxensive, but gets you to DC 34. Using a Staff is DC 20 (important for starting characters!), and they can be recharged.

Intimidate has a DC of 10 + Hit Dice + Wisdom Modifier + 5 per previous attempt, so you can get fairly high if you're persistant. So a level 1 adventurer who has driven Wisdom as high as possible can provide any DC you need - for a limited number of attempts per hour, however.

So training Charisma is difficult, because you're either in adverserial conditions (where you can't try over and over until you get it right) or because there are few ways to train when your attribute is low.

The recommended by the book approach is therefore: get a trained dog, have it run until it's tired, and get it to fetch. DC 12 until you're a Charisma 12. Then find a friend and have a friendly match of insulting one another, stopping for an hour after a few attempts to reset the DC. This should get you in the 20s. Once you're at 20, get an untrained dog, and have it fetch until your Charisma is 27 - this is faster than using Indtimidate. From there, revert to Intimidate to get as high as you want, or get training in Use Magic Device, and buy an item that works with a different alignment (you have +13 from training plus charisma bonus). Practice using the item until your Charisma hits 30 (with occasional days of rest when you roll a 1) then Intimidate as high as you want with a friend who is working on Wisdom.

You could visit a scroll shop and try to read all the scrolls of level 9 spells. Don't bother using them, so you might get a discount. That gets Charisma 34, and anything more calls for attempts at Diplomacy on people who at best don't care about you. Slow and sometimes dangerous. Or try for a magic item that can be used only by level 20 casters, for DC 40 - this requires more ranks in Use Magic Device, though.

The slow but steady method is to Perform in gradually better ways until you hit Charisma 30, with a hiccup at 25: you get a +7 bonus from Charisma 25, but need +10 to have a chance at DC 30 rolls. Then you're down to Use Magic Device or risking your skin with Diplomacy, and Intimidating an ally.

If Disguise is allowed, get a training buddy who is working on Perception and a Hat of Disguise. Dress up each round as something new and increasingly implausible, and go from there. Faster than Intimidate, but with the same potentially unlimited growth.

In all, raising Charisma is slow but possible, and hard to do alone.


Limits

Strength: 30 (trained in Climb: 35)
Dexterity: 30 (60 with Acrobatics bonuses, more with magic and obstacles)
Constitution: 20 (18 at character creation +2 from race)
Intelligence: 30 (trained in Know: Arcana: 40 via Tarrasque factoids or more if more facts increase the DC) (infinite with enough time, money, and Craft (bowmaking) bonuses)
Wisdom: 30 (infinite with Perception bonuses)
Charisma: 30 (infinite with Intimidate bonuses, or possibly Disguise - requires an ally)
This message was last edited by the user at 21:04, Fri 12 June 2015.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 902 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2015
at 21:28
  • msg #28

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

You have other non skill checks. So needing to roll endurance would logically go towards con.
AramilNailo
member, 39 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2015
at 21:56
  • msg #29

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

So....
I guess the question that's really important that you should ask with ANY system modification is, "What's the gain?". How does this enable the players to do more interesting things? So far the more interesting things include going to the gym and wanting to slow down the game with unnecessary rolls.

The only gain I see is now my wizard can have much higher base stats. But those base stats are already augmented by skills, spells and magical items. Skills and spells are gained by leveling, and other actions result in cash, which can equate to magical or mundane gear for bonuses.

So this is just creating a way to do what they already can with cash, through not-cash and in a complicated and potentially unbalanced manner.

It also seems to have potential scaling issues.  Are you going to calculate the XP for the player each time they succeed? Or is the player going to track their own progress? What about THAT GUY that always loses his sheet, or the player that doesn't know off-hand the DC for a jump check. Those players are going to slow things down for sure. And if there's a level offset you cant just memorize one level, you'll have to consult charts. Maybe with a three player party all this might be somewhat manageable, but what about a 6 person party?

It also doesn't account for hidden DCs. If you don't want them to know the DC does this mean you'll accumulate all the checks till the end of the session so the player wont be able to extrapolate what kind of challenge they're up against? Sounds like you can add it to the scaling issue.

Will this balance in favor of the players be counterweighted for the DM? How will it be balanced? Will you eyeball it and hope for the best? Will enemy wizards all have +8 modifiers to their save DCs from high Int? This seems like it would have painful repercussions in Fortitude for many players and also for monsters in the same boat.

There's a lot to think about with this change, but I think if you really want to work through it, I would recommend much use of spreadsheets and to expect a bumpy ride if your players don't always 'play nice'. Also keep in mind as a generic idea many holes can be punched into it, but when playing with your players, they may not be the kinds of folks who would obviously abuse the system.

Be sure to take feedback on the system after every session until it's perfect, and if it's perfect out of the gates, then your players are lying to you. Take down notes on roll frequency and the time it takes to get through certain activities pre-change and post-change and see if the cost is worth it. (Note activities include creating NPCs as well as figuring out what state PCs are in, something like this could be a big price in your prep time)
Illfirin
member, 25 posts
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 04:13
  • [deleted]
  • msg #30

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 05:37, Sun 14 June 2015.
GamerHandle
member, 727 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 04:37
  • msg #31

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

To answer some of earlier questions and offer some thoughts: (and to actually attempt to HELP and not just nay-say)

1) It's been mentioned (by me and others) - this has a flair of RuneQuest and RoleMaster to it.

2) Stat-Scaling can be interested - but, what are the gains/point?

- Well - let's offer not a "here's how I can break it by doing so deliberately at every turn" - But, the one idea offered was "a training" concept.

Let's put this into the immersion category:

-- Your characters are on 'down-time' (finally you have an excuse to use downtime!  Each character is given say 1 Month.  This is enough for a stat-training.  Each player decides - do I craft items for gold?  Do I create a magic item?  or do I stat-train?  It's an opportunity cost.  Give the PC a series of test-rolls: Want to raise INT?  No problem: they must find a library and mentor, pay X Gold, and make say... 5 INT rolls.  pass 3 out of 5, you get a +1 INT.

Same concept can be applied for each stat.  It costs money, it costs time, it costs opportunity, and requires characters to have developed relationships (oh mah gursh, I have to roleplay?).  If they manage to locate a 'superior trainer' - The Legendary Sage WhoKnowsAll - maybe they get a +1 to the Stat roll, but the trainer charges more money.

-- This also offers a little credence against the "dungeon crawl every other day" - whereas some RPOLians have pointed-out: If you fought 100 Goblins/Orcs/Demons a day - the PTSD would set-in so fast, you would have to retire by level 3.


(edit: hit reply too soon)

Should definitely be combined with DarkLightHitomi's and swordchucks' statements:

the "Stat Check" would require rolling At-or-Over the existing Stat.

So, a Strength of 10 - roll 10+ x3 out of 5 rolls: you get an 11.

At Strength 17 - you need a 17 or 18 (then ask yourself if you want your normal stat mod to count as a bonus.)
This message was last edited by the user at 04:40, Sun 14 June 2015.
Illfirin
member, 26 posts
Wed 17 Jun 2015
at 16:07
  • msg #32

Re: Stat Scaling in D&D and Pathfinder

What I want this system to accomplish is more of a Elder Scrolls style training what you use. If I use a lot of Str based skills my str should increase because I use it often and intensely. Same with any other skills.

Note some important things about this:

A) I think I am going to make this system with the idea of starting with Low-Fantasy Point buy system. Which means early game its VERY important to skill train, where later its more important that the GM keep up.

B) No skills use Constitution, which means that the +1 ability score point every what, 4 levels will likely go to Con, as well as dumping a lot of points into it because IT CANNOT BE TRAINED. Mind you this is not required and players should consider how this new system will effect their characters long run. (IE wizards and sorcerers may actually start with 10 or 11 in their casting stat in order to have 14-16 con)

C) This system does not train through combat (Mostly). This means everything else you have your players do is finally rewarded directly. This incentivizes things like Using Diplomacy, Using Active Perception (vs Passive Perception which is when you tell players to roll), Intimidating or Negotiating with foes instead of straight up murdering them, Actually using Knowledge skills, Using Sense Motive, Taking Class Appropriate Skills, Diversifying your builds.

D) This system makes Dex-based much more important due to the lack of ability to train Con, and the potential of scaled up threats.

E) I guess this does mean more paper work for the GM and players, which is why it needs to be tested to see how to stream line that.
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