Hey guys, I have a project over on GiTP where I take some old 'crappy' prestige classes and give them an update. (just type in Insert Fixed PRCs Here in your search engine)

Just wondering if you guys have any suggestions on what PrC I could be working on.

... there are seriously so many substandard PRCes.

Though I'd be more interested in fixes for substandard base classes.

The dragon disciple, without a doubt.

It requires spontaneous arcane casting (meaning, with the core rules only, either a bard or sorcerer), is primarily a melee-oriented class, and over the course of ten levels grants the character all the benefits of a ECL + 3 template. In addition, it doesn't improve spellcasting ability at all -- it only grants extra spells.

Assuming a single-classed sorcerer taking this, he could get it as early as level 5 (at which point he only has access to 2nd-level spells). Assuming he picks up this class at that point and stays with it until it's complete, he would add +7 to his spells-per-day figures... but would still be casting as if 5th level.

Other than that, everything the prestige class grants is part of the template. It's a waste of seven levels; better instead to convince the DM to grant you the template over the course of three levels, similar to the way it's handled in Savage Species.

The Dragon Disciple isn't really a caster-build.

It's actually quite a nice class, but I'd dip a level in sorcerer; and go something like barbarian after that. Especially if human.

But, it is a class fixed in PF, so I wouldn't be focusing on that one.

Nearly every Prestige Class is 'underpowered' compared to just single-classing or multi-classing.  In Pathfinder, Multi-classing is outright punished.

In 3.5, most classes are actually worse - this is 100% true for E V E R Y single spell-casting class without fail.

The combat classes tend to be a little better, and it depends upon whether or not you're still using 3.0 splat books (such as the thin, paperbacks.)

Nearly every class requires at least one or more useless feats, and set your saves-back a LONG way, whilst upping one in particular, way too far ahead of the others.

In short: Prestige Classes are terrible.

Huh... I always found the exact opposite in 3.5.  Pathfinder is a different story, though.

In 3.5, casters almost always want to grab a full-casting PrC as early as possible and level that way (using multiple PrCs, depending on what you're going for).  The design of the base casting classes is pretty terrible.

Consider the cleric.  If you go into a PrC that offers turn undead and full casting, there is literally no drawback in terms of class abilities because the cleric class doesn't have any (it might screw with your BAB, saves, and HP, but those aren't generally huge considerations).

Consider the wizard.  The only thing you lose by bailing out of the class for a PrC is a feat every five levels.  Yeah, so terrible.  The sorcerer has it even worse as they have zero class abilities after first level.

Fighters also get the short end of the stick.  You get... another feat every two levels.  Yay?  I guess?  By the time the feats start to stack up, you're probably just carrying the wizard's bags, anyway.

In fact, one of the things that extensively annoys me about 3.5 is the fact that the base classes are so terrible and the PrCs are so required.

There are some base classes where it's a real choice; but I never find prestige classes terrible. At worst, they're a specialisation. At best, they're just -better- than the original class.

Even taking into account often substandard feat choices; it's rarely an issue. Radiant Servant of Pelor, as an example, is a must for anyone who qualifies. Worst part about it? Is it's a class you can stumble upon the requirements for without trying, as long as you worship Pelor.

In reply to swordchucks (msg # 6):

Hmm... I guess we have very different views of this.

The way I see Prestige Classes is this: they sacrifice all the benefits of a class in exchange for a high degree of specialization.

When one gives-up full-spellcasting, for a PRC: they lose Familiar Bonuses, the bonus spells each level (2 in spell book), along with the feats/class features/whatever.

Taking the fighter: Having 11+ feats is an extreme benefit, and allows maximum flexibility.  When you take on a PRC, you lose all the feats, and are shoe-horned into something very specific.

I am sure some will find that an acceptable loss, but I find so few classes to be worthwhile compared to a straight Fighter or Cleric.

The problem is; by the time you take that first prestige class level, the bonus feats from there on in just aren't worth much.

Which is part of the issue with feats - there are very few high-level feats available. That you have more low-level abilities, effectively, compared to someone who's gotten stuff for their level, just isn't worth that much.

But yes, prestige classes are specialisations. It's just that for most classes; I don't think ignoring that just because of the specialisation is worth it. Cleric, sorcerer, wizard with full casting is generally worth it. Fighter, barbarian, rogue and even paladin probably are.

The ones where there's a real choice to be made, IMO, for the core rules classes:
Monk, Druid. In theory bard, but that's such a poor power-gamers choice of a class regardless.

Obviously try to avoid being a caster build where you lose caster levels though. And yes, that includes the exaggerated 'Mystic Theurge'.

I assume you're talking about wizards here, but this is a weird one.  By a really strict reading of the wizard class, this is true.  But... I've never actually seen a DM that enforced it.  Plus, I can trot out the Master Specialist PrC from Complete Mage and point to at least two things in the test that clearly assume wizards get those spells while advancing in the PrC.

Ive already done a score (or more) base class fixes/re-tools.

In a small amount of cases ( or all the cases if you are melee or a fighter) a PrC is worse, you get abilities that o not do much or make you worse at what the prc is all about (reaping mauler for instance) but the fact remais that you grab a full casting progression PrC that gives you nice things and you are already better than a base wizard or cleric or sorcerer. THEN you take a look at classes like rainbow servant or Incantrix and honestly how can you ever say they are bad?

Besdies how many cleric PrCs are there that are literally Paladin, the 10 level version? 3...4?


I'll get to work on the dragon disciple soon, right now Im working on an imporved arcane archer, coming up short on slapping an ability at 9th level though.

Whilst I don't agree prestige classes are bad; most of the good ones (outside of FR; because some of those are flat-out broken), you do need to take a sub-optimal feat to qualify.

Arcane Archer isn't that bad. The thing is, it should be a choice. Arcane Archer is built for a ranged warrior/arcane caster multi-class build. Take into account how just -bad- multiclassing is, it's quite a good class.

But it should be a difficult choice. One of my favorite druidic prestige classes, is Master of Many Forms. But it's not a straight power-up. You take that, sure, you become great at shapeshifting. But you give up spellcasting and animal companion advancement. The problem though, is that few of the base classes have that sort of thing to give up. So for most yes, it does appear to be a straight power-up. (Wizards, sorcerers, fighters the worst offenders).

well for me my complaint with arcane archer are is simple for an Arcane archer. it sure don't do much in the ways of magic. Pathfidner did a decent upgrade, but 7/10 casting and a full BaB is a bit too much for me.

I lowered it to 5/10 casting and bumped down a couple of the abilities levels where they are attained. so now 9th level is a dead level.