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16:16, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

[Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks.

Posted by LonePaladin
LonePaladin
member, 443 posts
Creator of HeroForge
Tue 12 May 2015
at 07:54
  • msg #1

[Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

I'm spit-balling an idea here, to reflect something that comes up in fiction (both printed and filmed). It's not uncommon to see an agile combatant squirm his way around an enemy, avoiding that enemy's attempts to hit him. Sometimes, he actually lures his enemy into attacking just to draw attention.

In the PF rules, you can use Acrobatics to move through a space an enemy threatens without provoking opportunity attacks, but that doesn't have the same feel to it. What if, instead, movement provoked as normal, but your Acrobatics skill could determine how hard you were to hit?

The current rules call for an Acrobatics check against the enemy's CMD, with each successive check increasing the target number by 2. With this variant, you would instead have the enemy make an attack as normal, but the moving PC uses their Acrobatics bonus + 10 in place of their AC (if that's higher). Situational modifiers that affect AC (dodge bonus, cover, etc.) would increase this number as well -- basically, if it would increase your CMD, it works here too. Feats like Dodge and Mobility would come into play as well.

Dodging like this requires moving at half-speed, just as in the rules for the skill. (Moving at full speed would remove the +10 modifier.) All of the other rules in the Acrobatics skill apply.

Attempting to move through an enemy's space would call for an Acrobatics vs. CMD check, as normal.
This message was last updated by a moderator, as it was the wrong forum, at 12:53, Tue 12 May 2015.
Flint_A
member, 496 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 08:49
  • msg #2

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

Well, the problem with replacing something with a skill is that skill modifiers can quickly get insanely high.

However, it shouldn't be much of a problem here. You are simply replacing a check not to get attacked with a "reverse check". Unless this gives the character a free attack in response or something, there isn't much potential for abuse.

I say go for it if you like it.
Egleris
member, 128 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 09:03
  • msg #3

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks


The idea isn't bad. One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that this change makes it so the GM rolls against the player, whereas the normal version has the player roll against the GM. It's usually considered sound game design to let players roll whenever possible, since theyr're more involved that way.

If that's not a problem to you, the change is fine, in that it doesn't really makes things that much different.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 892 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 15:00
  • msg #4

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

DnD, thus PF is based on opposed rolls with one side averaged. Attacks vs AC are actually opposed rolls, just with the defender's roll averaged to 10. Not only should this be kept in mind for rules balancing and consistancy, but also for how to make new rules.

Making acrobatics replace AC/CMD in some situations is a neat idea, but you should keep it in the same format as the AC/CMD rolls.
swordchucks
member, 887 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 15:18
  • msg #5

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

I look at this and get a gut feeling of "why bother?"

Acrobatics/Tumbling to get past opponents is moderately rare in the games I've run, so I don't see that this is a huge glaring area of problem.

Also... the foe is having to make an attack roll to determine whether or not they can make an attack roll?  It seems to me that simply adding a bonus to AC based on Acrobatics skill against opportunity attacks (with the bonus dependent on movement speed) and disallowing the stock "avoid provoking" mechanic would achieve what you want in a cleaner fashion.

Yes, the shifty rogue will be nearly impossible to hit with an opportunity attack... but they're already nearly impossible to hit because they just tumble out of it.
ricosuave
member, 118 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 18:33
  • msg #6

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

SO what I am getting from tis is instead of AC, you do acrobatics..

SO a level 20 your 'AC is going to be somewhere between 55 to 75 depending on your dex, misc bonuses, etc etc.

SO by doing this acrobatics +10 you are basically making a creature immune to attacks,

Not only are you just randomly tossing in a +10 for no reason, but its it trivial to increase a skill check as opposed to an attack bonus let alone actually upping your AC.

I have one character that's 7th level and my Acrobatics is a +18, and im not even trying to max it out.

Using acrobatics seems likea neat idea and would  be good if you just dropped of the extra 10 you want to add on. your are doing a skill check vs an attack

just take alook at what at various level a skill check is vs a attack roll and you'll see that skill checks tend to be higher.
borderline_dnd
member, 337 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 18:42
  • msg #7

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

Not a class skill for the Fighter and Wizard
And how would you address the spells?
GamerHandle
member, 706 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Tue 12 May 2015
at 19:04
  • msg #8

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

Acrobatics to represent Narrative-style combat

The above should sum-up what you are really shooting-for.

Unfortunately, this is as a result of a few false assumptions.

1) Yes, the overall concept is neat: combatants with more panache should be able to naturally avoid attacks more efficiently.

 - However; they already do this.  Any character that would have an acrobatics check at all - would already have all of the aspects that represent a panache-oriented character: A High Dexterity Score.

Your high dexterity score represents just how hard you are working to dodge and move-about.  If your player or you don't bother to describe 'what happens' on a miss, that's unfortunate.  (Not trying to be mean - just illustrating a point: describe the miss, it's the key to a narrative.)

2) There are already obvious class features and feats that handle this: uncanny dodge, the entire swashbuckler class, and so forth.



--- Now, on to actually incorporating your idea.

If you want to reward someone for taking a skill: grant a synergy bonus. 5 Ranks+? - +2 Synergy bonus to AC (doesn't apply when flat-footed.)




Now, an alternative to the entire concept.

"Attack rolls aren't static.. AC rolls shouldn't be either."

This is a fairly common concept that has been brought-up in a number of splat books.  Instead of a static AC - you replace the "10+" with a D20 roll.  Then, if you want; you could *EASILY* (Sarcasm font) replace the ENTIRE AC bonus with an acrobatics check (don't forget armor check penalties!) and there would be *NO* (More sarcasm font) way to abuse that at that point.

In reality: although this method might be a lot of fun; it would take some work to calculate the distinctions between the # of offensive vs. defensive bonuses that could be attained.

(Edit: Added notes for sarcasm font.)
This message was last edited by the user at 20:09, Tue 12 May 2015.
swordchucks
member, 891 posts
Tue 12 May 2015
at 19:19
  • msg #9

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

GamerHandle:
Then, if you want; you could EASILY replace the ENTIRE AC bonus with an acrobatics check (don't forget armor check penalties!) and there would be NO way to abuse that at that point.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm...  As some have pointed out, skills can and do increase much faster than ACs, making this an... interesting choice.

My main problem with it is that replacing AC with a skill check effectively removes armor from the equation.  If you're going to do that, using one of the armor variants (armor as DR or the like) would be a good idea.
GamerHandle
member, 707 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Tue 12 May 2015
at 20:08
  • msg #10

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

In reply to swordchucks (msg # 9):

Good point - yes, it was meant to be sarcasm. - I will fix that.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 893 posts
Wed 13 May 2015
at 13:25
  • msg #11

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

Actually, AC was a problem to begin with. AC relies on equipment to advance as your level grows, but the one thing an AC is meant to stand against, the attack roll, does increase with level regardless of equipment. To me, that is a problem anyway, so it doesn't really follow to complain about a skill growing faster than AC, when AC doesn't grow like it should. Granted, they've been using equipment to patch that little problem, so fixing that problem just makes AC enhancing equipment a problem, for which using armor as DR seems a reasonable solution.
That Guy With The Face
member, 53 posts
I never forget a face...
Wait, who are you again?
Wed 20 May 2015
at 16:19
  • msg #12

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

I agree that a character's AC should not solely be based on gear and, while there are feats and class abilities that help more mobile characters, you're practically required to use all your available feats towards them to keep up with the AC provided by simply grabbing the heaviest armor you can manage. If combat is your only aspect of play, then this isn't as noticeable. The problem comes when you want to use those feats to accomplish non-dodge related actions.

For this reason, I use a house rule in both tabletop and pbp 3.5/PF games to allow players to be "tanks" or nimble. While it isn't perfect  (no system or house rule is), it's had a fair amount of success.

quote:
AC
Armor class will be based on a character's armor proficiency. At level 1, a character without armor proficiency (Monk, Sorcerer, Wizard, etc) will have a +2 class bonus to AC (which will replace the normal armor bonus). This bonus increases by 1 for each armor proficiency (+3 for light, +4 for medium, +5 for heavy).

At level 3 and every third level after, this bonus goes up by 1.

Should a character gain armor proficiency later on (through feats or multiclassing) that they did not previously posess, the class bonus adjusts accordingly.

Armor check penalties will apply to AC.


A character may only use half of the class bonus (rounded up) against touch attacks.

A character may only use half of the class bonus (rounded down) when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker (In the case of Uncanny Dodge, a character will retain DEX but still only use half class armor bonus) and loses all the class bonus when imobilized or helpless.

Shields still provide AC bonus as normal (their check penalties do not count against AC as armor does)

Damage Reduction From Armor

Armor will provide DR equal to half its normal AC bonus (rounded down / minimum 1).

Damage reduction gained because of special materials (such as adamantine) will stack.

Damage reduction gained from race or class (such as a Barbarian's DR) will stack.

Any special cirumstances not mentioned here will be addressed by the GM as they arise.


There are still a few areas left for interpretation by the GM (magic enhancement bonuses to armor and such), but here's the foundation of what I use.
jtcbrown
member, 65 posts
Fri 29 May 2015
at 19:59
  • msg #13

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

Yeah, I'd work it out to some kind of not-insane bonus to AC, rather than yet-another-opposed-roll.

Feat that grants +1 to AC vs. attacks you can perceive per 5 ranks in Tumbling or something.
GamerHandle
member, 721 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Fri 29 May 2015
at 20:12
  • msg #14

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

Hmm.. a lot of these don't seem to be taking into account the fact that although the attack roll goes up; that only applies to the FIRST attack.  In any situation where AC bonuses get better: the iterative attacks almost immediately become worthless.

In the case of the fourth attack; it usually is anyway unless fighting 'hordes' of something, in which case we're rolling just to see if another gobbo got smacked-aside.

I wonder how these alternative (ones that provide automatic or other ways of acquiring AC, NOT DR-related ideas) ideas pair-up against this problem.
swordchucks
member, 914 posts
Fri 29 May 2015
at 20:14
  • msg #15

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

My gut tells me "not well".  If you want something more realistic, you should probably just go with a different, non-d20 game system.  I mean, it's a system with a flat 5% chance that you always succeed and a flat 5% chance that you always fail, no matter your skill level.
GamerHandle
member, 722 posts
Umm.. yep.
So, there's this door...
Fri 29 May 2015
at 20:56
  • msg #16

Re: [Pathfinder] Using Acrobatics to Dodge Attacks

In reply to swordchucks (msg # 15):

Didn't say I was shooting for realistic.  Definitely not that.  Was just trying to work within the system itself.  Any time you take a system, and decide to house-rule a huge aspect of it (combat being well-over half of the game), you gotta figure there will be some blowback or something that goes wrong.
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