Seeing as the Game systems is only for thread on a specific system, I guessed this would fit here. Apologies if I'm wrong.

I'm looking RPG systems that allow you to rule a region, a city or preferable a kingdomsized area. If possible one that would allow you to simulate wars or atleast allow you to interact with neighbouring regions, but I'll happily settle for a good one that only allows management.

This system can be part of a larger system, for example I'm familiar with the kingdom rules in pathfinder.
I'm simply looking for suggestions. If possible include reasons why it's better than others.

concerning this type of systems I'm familiar with Birthright (Ad&d 2e), Exalted, Pathfinder Kingmaker AP, and a homebrew thing I did myself based on Dark Ages Vampire.

What time scale do you want players to act on?  Will players be a represented character or more the avatar of their nation?

Runequest had a supplement called Empires, and Mongoose Traveller had a supplement called Dynasty that might be adaptable to other settings.  Pendragon had one called Lordly Domains, but that revolved around managing fiefs.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:48, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

In reply to otghand (msg # 2):

I would prefer the timescale to be at the least able to be measured in weeks or months.
The kingdom building will be next to a campaign where the players will have characters running around. Having the characters be represented in certain roles like ruler or general, or each player his own nation, or avatar of their nation, each way can work out.

I'm trying to gather resources to run a chronicle and see what's available, so I can still change the type of story I want to tell.

The next question then is what actions do the player's take?  Are they deciding what to plant, when to harvest or will be resources be more generic?  Will there be issues of trade / commerce to handle?

There are a few mentioned on this thread:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthrea...gdom-Management-RPGs

I've been looking into this very issue, and I've found that most such games either require lots of bean-counting and spreadsheets, or they go to the other extreme and take the free-form option. I'm looking for something that runs down the middle. Alas, that means I have no answers for you, but I'm another interested party.

I didn't see "Wrath of the Autarch" mentioned. May be of interest.
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This message was last edited by the user at 00:01, Tue 09 Dec 2014.

What do y'all have against bean counting / spreadsheets?  At their core Kingdom level games are resource management games, and spreadsheets are excellent for that absent a dedicated program.

I'm more interested in wargaming a campaign aspect.  Yes, the king, princlings & generals take to the fields & roads.  Autarch's Domains Campaign & Battle systems would appear to be great for modeling the army parts, although any descent set of tactical rules could be used too.

I am leaning towards the ADD/Rules Cyclopedia mass combat system as an abstract way to do them - seems somewhat easier than the GURPS set-up, but close.  I also have several tactical rule sets to try out; ADD Battle System, WRG, War Law & City State Warfare come to mind.

But how to start the basis of the campaign is the crux to me.  How to meld a few towns & a major town/city 'county' or such into an economic entity with military forces -  without resorting to a plethora of accounting details is my issue.  Keeping track of the armies will be enough paperwork to deal with ...

In reply to otghand (msg # 9):

It depends what you want out of a game. I'm into RPGs to tell/experience a good story, or to get swept up in the excitement of vicarious combat. For me, the empire-building is a coherent backdrop against which the other factors can play out.

I would probably focus on the intrigue of court first of all, then the conquering armies, then actual management of the estates would probably come last, so I need something that doesn't take up too much of my gaming time, yet avoids the freeform GM fiat: "I'll let you raise six hundred men this month, cos I'm in a good mood..."

I see bean counting as having all the responsibilities and chores of kingship without experiencing its glory and luxury. And maybe I see too many spreadsheets at work...

Honestly I'd just make up a sheet for the country based on whatever system I'm using for the PCs.

So taking DnD I do something like

and start out with random stats or stats based on the PC's sheets. Major decisions can then change the country's "HP" or "AC".

You could also then have a specific NPC/PC represent each one of those stats: a general for strength, a scholar or priest for wisdom, a diplomat for charisma etc.

The thing I'm going for would be to provide a second side to the story of the players, not merely a backdrop. Which makes it hard to explain what I'm looking for.
If I can tie it directly to the characters that's great. If not, I know my players I'm confident I can sell them on the idea of controlling a noble house, while adventureing with their characters, provided it's all explained upfront, and I don't jump it on them.
The system itself needs to be engaging and coherent enough.

In reply to Tileira (msg # 12):
Thank you for the suggestion. But I did exactly that with World of Darkness' storyteller system, which even had skills, backgrounds and merits and flaws. What I learned is that just like players have combat actions and feats in Dnd, countries need to have likewise things to do.
While Power Attack might have a translation into management of countries (Police brutality against peaceful protesters?, if I'm going that far, I would prefer to have a better look at options that already exist.

I don't mind a bit of bookkeeping by the way.
I'm not responding every post but I'm definitalely taking notes.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Sometimes I think this is one of those situations where developing your own system, or using the rules from a more basic system is the answer.

For me, I use The Window - http://www.mimgames.com/window/

As Tileira suggested with "Stat Replacement" - you can easily do the same thing with The Window.

Why do I suggest this?  No system, no matter how cool, how neat, how well-thought, will EVER meet your desires and specifications.

What do you do with The Window?  Simple - Create a set of stats about which you feel will matter and care.  Determine which actions/events/reactions/decisions will affect those stats - set target numbers and roll against them.  Simple.

I really think a good, possibly the best approach is to answer these questions first:

1.  What are the players playing?  Is a player the A) King of Nerdistan, or B) the Kingdom of Nerdistan? Looked at another way, if A is chosen and the King dies, game over (for that player position).  If B then the king is just one piece the player possibly commands, and if the king dies the prince possibly takes the throne, with possibly different stats.

2.  On what time scale do the players operate?  Are they playing in the moment in adventure time (possible with choice A above), or are actions / turns a longer interval?  Choice B above is more supportive of longer intervals.

3.  What sort of decision do you want to empower the players to make?

4.  Will all players be part of the same polity or are each their own polity and thus PvP is assumed?


With those answers in hand, a system can be chosen to suit your intent.  Pretty much any RPG can handle choice A with short intervals and economics in the background.  Choice B and longer intervals get you into less RPG and more strategy game territory.

Nothing says BTW that you can not do both - have players be part of a larger polity, say a kingdom, but each plays a significant noble of the realm or noble house with a separate adventuring PC who's actions might affect the larger game.

The idea of a playing a noble house sounds right.  You have a family of potential characters, retainers, specialists, allies to draw from.  Then place it in a weak king/strong noble or vice versa political climate with a few other major & minor houses - varying from newly rich, blue bloods, royal inter-marriages & so forth.  A few other majors with some minors roughly fleshed out to start with.  A few lines of current history, some rumors & let things go.  Detail as needed.  I could see the real intrigue happening with aligning minors to your cause.

You could also use a telescoping time concept, day by day when needed, days & weeks could pass as matters/events/plots boil before something happens.  An occasional random event for the region as a whole; peasant uprising, fire on the docks, visiting dignitaries, royal holidays, etc.  Wager on the chariot races, infiltrate the assassin's guild.

This was always an interesting concept to me. Blood Royal

http://www.republicofheaven.or...droyal/br_player.htm

May provide you some ideas. Sure did me.
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This might be what your looking for

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9918...-RPG-PUBLICBETA-v1-0


I think it is everything you asked about only problem is time line

He's not wrong... Presumably you like the complexity, narrative aspects, and mechanical aspects of what ever game you are playing so just use those.

Trivially done in FATE (reasonably sure some one has done it already) but you probably aren't going that route based on the games you listed. Actually looking at that list they are a bunch of bean counting games any way, just use a bean counting system.