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17:29, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Posted by Sir_Chivalry
willvr
member, 501 posts
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 09:04
  • msg #8

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

In reply to Jarodemo (msg # 6):

As long as you are prepared for that though. I know some players who expect daily posts (except for the weekend) and it would be pretty hard to do that then.

In fact, the vast majority of players I know wouldn't be too happy with a few days off to tweak.
Tasidar
member, 210 posts
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 10:19
  • msg #9

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

I'm running a pathfinder adventure path and lots of the encounters and dungeons come with maps. I just C&P them into Paint and rip their rpol portraits to use as character pogs in battle. Its not too hard.

If I run into an encounter that doesn't have a set map I'll just use ascii if I can't rip an appropriate one from the interwebs
Jarodemo
member, 702 posts
My hovercraft
is full of eels
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 12:16
  • msg #10

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

In reply to willvr (msg # 8):

Fair point, but  suppose it depends on your expected posting rate. I try to post 2-4 GM posts per week, but I know some games to a lot faster.
truemane
member, 1902 posts
Firing magic missles at
the darkness!
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 12:56
  • msg #11

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

For level-based games I always do one of two things:

1. Design a story that's limited, in that the game is pitched as a 'one-shot' and will only encompass one story of whatever length. That way, you decide what level it is and the assumption is there's no advancement and you give them other shinies instead.

2. Eliminate XP altogether and just level the party when the story requires it. For this, my rate is almost always one level per adventure (or two, depending on their length).

And if you really want to keep XP, then just portion it out in a way that levels them at a rate you want. And just ignore the rules. One level every 13.33 encounters is fun in a long-term tabletop where you're playing once or twice a month or whatever, but on PbP it's painfully slow.

I won't even apply for a game that starts at 1st level any more.

Maps are another story. They're my Achilles Heel and the main reason I don't run D&D games here anymore. Every map update for every round of combat takes 10 times longer than anything else. It's just too much a time sink for me.

But what I used to do was cobble together something simple in Paint. I'd make the map, save it. Make the tokens for the combatants, save them, and just cut and paste them into place each round.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 741 posts
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 17:36
  • msg #12

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

willvr:
... Just a word of warning about fast advancement.

If you're using modules, be prepared to rewrite a hell of a lot of them if you're doing that. Now, if you're prepared to do that, or you're making your own stuff then yes, fast advancement may appear to be the way to go.



Actually this is rather easy to deal with in d20. Each level has associated expectations for BAB, CMB, save DCs, etc.

So simply alter those to match the current level of the party, plus...

HP, the number one best thing to do to make an encounter easier or harder is to alter how much HP the enemies have.


Also, something that is nearly always forgotten or ignored, there are no rules for d20, only guidelines (except perhaps 4e, not sure about that one). Was never intended to be anything else.

Maps depend entirely on what style of combat you are using.

Not that anything of the sort is needed, you can just make a judgement call, or have your own map that only you can see (though this requires lots of Q&A).
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 18:20, Thu 09 Oct 2014.
billiam
member, 31 posts
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 18:14
  • msg #13

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

As for a map yes it will add so much value and remove some pressure off of you. Even a text map works great just give something clear.

As far a slower pace it is true but you do have more consistency than in person. Usually in person all I have ever been able to consistently achieve was 3 normal encounters per sitting. And in php it is usually 1 a week so if you meet every week yeah more might get done. But a few off weeks or every other week me the rate gets much closer.

And yes I usually alter hp of the number of enemies by dividing total hp by damage per round and then come up with how many rounds I feel something should go, usually 4 rounds feels challenging but not too slow.
willvr
member, 502 posts
Thu 9 Oct 2014
at 21:47
  • msg #14

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 12):

I'd be kind of disappointed if the only difference I was facing between a level 10 encounter and a level 15 is numerical adjustments. At level 15 I expect them to have access to level 8 spells that I need to worry about countering, some resistances etc. I don't want to just be fighting the same thing just levelled up a bit.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 743 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 11:31
  • msg #15

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Perhaps, but that is only if they are casters. I mentioned it as that is something too often overlooked. I've had GMs that will throw enemies of CR +4 at us because or munchkin drops things too quickly, but then the rest of us can't affect them nor can we resist anything they do, because there is an assumption in the rules about what DCs the creatures should be facing as well as what DCs we should be able to handle. Interestingly, the HP on such creatures still is too low.

Obviously if it works one way, then it works the other way as well. If the party is higher level then expected, the enemies won't make their saves and PCs always will, etc.

Besides, higher spells are just expanded options and thus not as big a deal (though I'm wondering why the enemy wizards never use limited wish or even a full wish against the PCs. Or contingency for that matter.)
Merevel
member, 811 posts
Gaming :-)
Very unlucky
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 11:38
  • msg #16

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Why not trade in a little of that big mobs CR for leveled mobs? Ok big bad demon. The action economy is in your PC's favor. Throw in a set of henchmen such as wizards fighters, fallen angels ect.

Work around the environment too. It is not just about a CR or a highly leveled foe.
willvr
member, 503 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 11:40
  • msg #17

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Casters is only for spells. Resistances isn't. I'll ignore DR because either you can counter-act it or you can't.

But even then, the point was not "It can't be done", but, that if you are going for a quicker advancing game but using modules, you will need to put in some extra work. They may be fine with that, but I was just tossing out a warning - some of the worst experiences I've had in DnD is playing a game where XP was tossed out like candy, but using a module and not adjusting to fit the now higher-levels.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 745 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 11:45
  • msg #18

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Now you are just missing the point. The point was about why CR is important, and certain things to consider in altering the AP.

Besides, perhaps the GM doesn't want to research new baddies, or the existing baddy is an important character to the story and thus can't be replaced, or the GM isn't experienced enough to confidently make such major alterations.
willvr
member, 505 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 11:51
  • msg #19

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

And well, the players are going to be bored if they're not facing some of those higher CR baddies, but just levelled original baddies. The occasional baddie just levelled is fine. But every single one just levelled? Then the fact your higher level means -nothing-. YOu might as well not be doing fast XP track, because you're just facing the same enemies anyway.

Also, I was not missing the point, because I was talking about -my- point, which you were originally responding to. You can then take it off and talk about whatever, but you can't expect me to go down that route, as that's not what I was talking about.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 747 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 12:12
  • msg #20

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Since when does changing level equate with different enemies? Enemies should be chosen based on the story/area.

If the PCs are dealing with villagers beset by lizardmen, then it only makes sense to fight lizardmen.

And if you're an experienced GM, leveling enemies shouldn't be a problem. And it takes fighting enemies for enemies to become boring.

Also, this is APs, so the enemies were chosen for a reason.
willvr
member, 507 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 13:16
  • msg #21

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

DarkLightHitomi:
Since when does changing level equate with different enemies? Enemies should be chosen based on the story/area.


Okay, you come across as creative. So I'm betting you probably don't use prepackaged modules very often. I just don't have the time to make my own stuff, so when I run games, I used modules. And I can assure you, that the enemies you fight, in a module, at low-levels, are not just low-level versions of what you fight later. At first level you're fighting goblins. Later you fight bugbears. Eventually you fight the Demon guardian of the goblinoid tribes.

What's the point in quicker levelling, if you're telling the same story? I am so not a fan of "Oh well let's just level them up faster" - but telling the same story. For me, if you want to level them up faster, it's because you feel they should start at low levels, but the story you have in mind is much more than low-levels can contemplate.

I'm actually a bigger fan of the other suggestion offered early on, which was to start them at higher levels. That's something I would get behind, and might even do myself at some point.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 750 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 13:42
  • msg #22

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Perhaps you should ask why the level matters in relation to the story.

The purpose of leveling is to give a sense of character growth and progress, however, this is generally not directly related to story.

Further, having goblin, then bugbears, then demons, doesn't have anything to do with levels. The people who wrote the module had certain expectations that they kept in mind and thus wrote the numbers with those expectations in mind. If their expectations were wrong, then making adjustments to the numbers is clearly the best answer as it maintains the theme and feel of the story.

Consider for a moment that not a single character in The Hobbit or LotR were above 5th level equivalence, and Gandalf was arguably the same level throughout, though he maybe might have become 6th when he became White, but that is still questionable as it was purely character growth. And yet these stories were about workd shattering epic problems fighting against things far more powerful then themselves.

Level doesn't matter to monsters or story, only to the numbers.

As for why you need time to create your own stories is completely beyond me, but I'm not sure I'd consider a GM skilled if they can't adjust to the players on the fly while staying true to the story (whether of their own creation or a prepackaged one.
willvr
member, 509 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 14:18
  • msg #23

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

DarkLightHitomi:
Consider for a moment that not a single character in The Hobbit or LotR were above 5th level equivalence, and Gandalf was arguably the same level throughout, though he maybe might have become 6th when he became White, but that is still questionable as it was purely character growth. And yet these stories were about workd shattering epic problems fighting against things far more powerful then themselves.



As for why you need time to create your own stories is completely beyond me, but I'm not sure I'd consider a GM skilled if they can't adjust to the players on the fly while staying true to the story (whether of their own creation or a prepackaged one.


LotR is a book; a novel, not an RPG. Just do not compare LotR and DnD; it just doesn't work.

Regardless, they rarely -fought- the big bad enemies.

As for your second point... that's just baloney. Different GMs handle things differently. Just because you can't adjust things 'on the fly', does not make you less skilled than one who can. Far from it. It makes your way of handling things -different-.
Skald
moderator, 577 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 14:32
  • msg #24

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

quote:
Consider for a moment that not a single character in The Hobbit or LotR were above 5th level equivalence, and Gandalf was arguably the same level throughout, though he maybe might have become 6th when he became White, but that is still questionable as it was purely character growth.

Oh, I don't know ... looking at the magic items Bilbo had: Elven Chain (4150GP), Magic Sword (let's just call it +1 = 2000GP) and Ring of Invisibility (yeah, it was the One Ring, but for the sake of argument = 20000GP), which per table 5-1 suggests he was 8th level.

As for Gandalf, assuming the GM pitched the Balgor (=Balor) against him as a fair fight and wasn't just trying to kill him off rather than NPC him when the player when AWOL, and with a CR of 18, that assumes 4 x 18th level characters, which puts Gandalf at least 18th level and rightly concerned that all his so-called friends ducked out on him.

... all of which goes to prove that Tolkien paid absolutely no attention to the game rules when he wrote his books. <grrrrins>

But seriously, I most definitely agree that level doesn't really matter.  Sure, it's nice to see the character grow and get better at fighting or a couple of new spells or what have you, but if you consider that the faster you level the sooner the GM is going to run out of viable challenges, I'm happy to take it slow and enjoy the ride.

That said, it often makes more sense to come in part way through a character's story.  If you want to play anyone who's not a callow youth, it's easier to write a believable background with a couple of levels under the character's belt.  Hard to make a grizzled veteran of the wars if you're supposed to be first level.  Though fun to start characters off from scratch and watch them grow.  All good. :>
W0LF0S
member, 33 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 14:45
  • msg #25

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

In reply to willvr (msg # 23):

I believe he's referencing this article: http://thealexandrian.net/word...-your-expectations-2.  This article in turn is a response to other articles at the time addressing the topic of the problems with the D&D 3.5 system.

The article is from 2007 and is addressing the realism and inherent assumptions behind the mechanics of the D&D 3.5 system.  It's a fairly intelligent article, and one of its examinations concerns the character of Aragorn in the LotR series, which is held up often as a very realistic representation of fantasy which is often misrepresented at too high a level assumption of 20.  To quote his opening argument in that section:

quote:
So what have we learned so far? Almost everyone you have ever met is a 1st level character. The few exceptional people you’ve met are probably 2nd or 3rd level – they’re canny and experienced and can accomplish things that others find difficult or impossible.

If you know someone who’s 4th level, then you’re privileged to know one of the most talented people around: They’re a professional sports player. Or a brain surgeon. Or a rocket scientist.

If you know someone who’s 5th level, then you have the honor of knowing someone that will probably be written about in history books. Walter Payton. Michael Jordan. Albert Einstein. Isaac Newton. Miyamoto Musashi. William Shakespeare.

So when your D&D character hits 6th level, it means they’re literally superhuman: They are capable of achieving things that no human being has ever been capable of achieving. They have transcended the mortal plane and become a mythic hero.


This is after he's finished examining a lot of rules regarding weights, jumping, and other things deemed silly or unrealistic, so this is also the end of his justification for how to interpret levels.  But anyway, he concludes that Aragorn himself is most likely a 5th level character of some description (he suggests a Ranger1/Fighter1/Paladin3 build as his personal viewpoint), because is the truly exceptional kind of person that shows up once every couple of generations.

Anyway, the article was an intriguing read even though I didn't truly agree with all of its arguments and assertions.

As to my personal opinion on the topic, leveling systems are hard to manage in PbP games unless you have some plans on how to handle things going into the game as a GM.  Typically, you need some kind of accelerant or rule variant in order to accommodate the inherent slowness of the format.  Halfing XP requirements, abandoning XP in favor of some other measurement, and just leveling at particular story milestones are all things of I've seen tried, but not everything fits each GM or even each game the same.  It's up to the GM to pick an appropriate variant, because the written models are usually intended for actual tabletops that meet once a week or so.  Otherwise, you'll lose the pacing of your game and your players will feel like they're not progressing.  Both of which are game-killers.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 752 posts
Fri 10 Oct 2014
at 17:09
  • msg #26

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Skald,
Looking at wealth is a bad idea, as it doesn't give any indication of the character's capabilities.

I judged Gandalf by what he could do. No spells above 3rd, and even those are rarely used, and that is being liberal, such as assuming he used an invisibility spell, which the book merely said he was in shadows and unseen, thus he not have used a spell at all, etc.

And yes that article is quite good.
Skald
moderator, 578 posts
Whatever it is,
I'm against it
Sat 11 Oct 2014
at 07:20
  • msg #27

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

You don't like wealth as a measure ?  Fair enough.  Suppose Tolkien could have been running a Monty Haul dungeon and just handing out treasure ... oh right, that's how Frodo got all his gear, wasn't it ?  From Bilbo (and later Galadriel).  <grins>

But just because the wizard doesn't use a spell doesn't mean he hasn't got it !  I've played wizards before now who hoarded their magic and used it sparingly.

Was the spell that destroyed the bridge in the Mines of Moria was inherent in the staff or cast by the wizard ?  Setting aside the problem that Earthquake (which fits the bill nicely given cause and effect) is a cleric spell (though Tolkien's wizards, the Istari could well be described as clerics given their role as servants of the Valar (angelic powers), that's an 8th level spell, so minimum casting level is 15th.  Let's go with cleric, not wizard (Tolkien obviously using house rule whereby clerics are called wizards AND are allowed to use swords proficiently), and he's using his staff as Divine Focus (also explains loss of power once Saruman took his staff off him in Isengard.

Dork Tower ran a very funny series of cartoons in June 2012 portraying Tolkein as GM for the Inklings.  And I think the LOTR D20 efforts of Shamus Young put the nail in the coffin on that score.

Fantasy fiction is not a good advert for rules systems, but what they show is that heroism isn't just a collection of stats.  (as an aside, has anyone specced the Star Wars Death Star using Traveller rules ?  I'm guessing the cost of the jump engines would be prohibitive given the tonnage).

So how important is levelling ?  Depends on what you're looking for in game, but to my mind better attacks, more spells and magic swords aren't the only reward.

(Oh, and for part 2 of the OPs question, yes, I do think maps, even really simple ones, enhance the online gaming experience - as others have said, you do need to be able to judge relative distances for both movement/spell effects)
willvr
member, 510 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2014
at 07:31
  • msg #28

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Forget Gandalf. He and the other Istari were technically demigods. The Balrog, an 'ancient evil', was seen to be the only thing capable of standing up to something like them. Weilder of the Secret Flame. He didn't feel abandoned by his party - he -wanted- them to flee, because if he had to worry about them as well, he had no chance.

Mind you, one of my partner's pet hates is when a friend of mine tries to turn characters in every movie, every book into a DnD character. And I get what she means. Tolkien was a brilliant writer; but he wasn't running a DnD game.

Yes, I saw that Dorktower series of strips, and it's amusing.

What I don't actually get, is if someone's a big fan of the story rather than the rules, what's it matter what level they are? Why make people higher level, just to satisfy players? One of my own pet hates when it comes to running games online, is people who insist on levelling up sooner because it's online. Yeah, no. I'll run the game, I'll award XP. Unless I find you're lagging behind in levels for some reason (usually due to players leaving), I'm not going to grant bonus XP, if it means that I'm going to have to rewrite the adventure (whether done by simply adding class levels, or having to shift some of the monsters into more level-appropriate ones).

I could zip through a mega-dungeon like Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil by 'cutting out some of the non-appropriate stuff' and starting everyone at level 10. But umm... why? The goal is to -play- the game, surely? Isn't the excitement in playing? And then when you finally get there, if it's after 3 years in tabletop, or 15 online, the achievement is all the greater.

I do have health issues, and family issues sometimes, so I do occasionally get complaints about my slowness. But I've rarely got complaints about how often people level-up.

In the end, I think as long as how the GM runs things is how the players want to play, there shouldn't be too much drama.
pfarland
member, 286 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2014
at 07:39
  • msg #29

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Skald:
(as an aside, has anyone specced the Star Wars Death Star using Traveller rules ?  I'm guessing the cost of the jump engines would be prohibitive given the tonnage).


Yes, it's been done.  I forget off hand where I saw it, but it was insane.  It used one of the optional drive variants (since Jump Drives don't really mesh with Hyperspace).  I believe they used TL 20.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 753 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2014
at 13:46
  • msg #30

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

The point of leveling however is character growth. While within the story it might makes sense to wait, the players want to feel progress with their characters. Further, most of the games start people off at first level which is often felt as not very capable and thus desired to be kept short. I imagine many have the same problem I do of not having any games last long enough to ever level. Of all the online games I've played, I've leveled twice. Thus I want faster leveling simply because I want to actually gain a level, and Im beginning to hate low level as I never get any further cause every game dies before I get the chance.
Merevel
member, 813 posts
Gaming :-)
Very unlucky
Sat 11 Oct 2014
at 18:38
  • msg #31

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

Funny thing is for the longest time I always envisioned the first few levels as trainee. Especially level one. Almost every character doubles their power between level 1 and 2. So it never hit me that level 1 was professional. I did not know that until I found some sidebars in a book that talked about optional rules for representing real training.

This raises a question though. Are all characters assumed to be self trained? Would being trained in a guild lower their starting age or come with perks?

Back to the point. Storyline based leveling, instead of adventure based. I know they go hand in hand most of the time. What would be a good rate?
Sithraider
member, 73 posts
The dead, they walk!
16 in the clip...
Thu 16 Oct 2014
at 06:00
  • msg #32

Re: Advice for running a leveled d20 game on rpol?

I would suggest that a good rate for "character development" would be just faster than the bad guys and challenges. That is, if you want them to succeed all the time. And just slower than the challenges if you want them to succeed some of the time. To me, level based systems (video games included) trick you into believing you are getting better. I know, I know, you get fireball, and that cool +2 sword you always wanted but now the bad guys just got strangely better. Hmmm,....  As long as the challenge equals the power of the characters, then the "net zero" rule applies. Who cares if the group has a level 20 tank that can take 100 points of damage and shake it off when the baddy can only dish out 75. It's mute, equals zero and doesn't really matter. The truth is leveling up is the carrot, and the players are holding the stick.

What's more fun; a fighter that can take on ten giants and win, or a fighter that can take on ten kobolds? Neither if the story isn't good. So, all my tangents aside, level the characters up as the story demands it, when the characters need a new carrot to keep them interested, or whenever you want to shift the balance of power.  Use the CR to keep the flow of things "about equal" as far as mechanical bits go and then challenge the players with your story. Let them feel the breath of that thief behind them, taste their rusty blood on their lips.

Ok, ok, I'm done. Really. Late night, sorry if you suffered through that gibberish. Cheers!
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