Right, so I'll just get right to the point.  I'm working on a Deadlands: Hell on Earth RPG to play with my cousin and some friends next week.  Usually creativity is not my weak suit, but for some reason my brain has went well beyond brain-fart into.. well.. You get the idea.  So here I sit, the days ticking down, trying to get some fresh ideas for interesting perimeters.  Buildings are easy..  Some corrugated tin here, some pre-war brickwork with plywood for patch-up there, adobe buildings and mud huts, re-purposed scrap mostly.

Now, I know defenses could be run quite the same way.  But I'd love some fresh insight on what KIND of scrap could be used.  In the past I've used the following (and feel free to steal them if you like the ideas):

Piled cars.  I know, Junk Town from Fallout beat me to that years ago.  (Also Scrapheap.  Anybody remember the very first FO demo?  Showing my age here..)

I had one small settlement built around an old train station, and the train cars themselves had been painstakingly dragged off of the tracks to make a wall.  They were chained shut in case you ask, and defenses came in the form of very crudely cut-out 'gun ports'.  Most of the inner walls of said train cars were filled with mounded dirt and debris to slow bullets and prevent something (big) from just ripping its way inside.

I've had one settlement in an old middle-school in a small town that used the buses, turning them over on their sides to prevent windows from being crawled through.  Similar to the [train cars], dirt was heaped where possible to keep the baddies out.

One place used old semi tractor-trailers much to the same effect, reinforced with chain link and aluminum siding to keep peeping toms from knowing where the week points were.  (It didn't work, but hey.)

Had trenches built around one settlement.  That went very badly when the walkin' dead came up on one of the posts after dark and wiped the whole trench.

But, for some reason, I've exhausted my ideas. :\  I'm sure I could think of more if I found some random inspiration of sorts to jog my brain housing group.  I'd really appreciate some more ideas if anyone would care to share.


Edit:
Also hesco.  Hesco is a great defense in modern times, and works well post-apocalypse too.  All you need are four solid walls of chain link or chickenwire.  Set it up about 6' high and 4" in diameter.  Use something to line it (tarp, leather, plywood, even cardboard might theoretically work) and plenty o' dirt.  Viola.  One giant sandbag.  Wish I'd come up with it, I'd probably be rich.
This message was last edited by the user at 10:58, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

Why not place your settlement next to an abandoned windfarm? Most of the turbines have ladders inside them so that you can climb up to the gondola and they have a hatch on top so you can climb out onto the roof. They would make an ideal look out post / watchtower combined with some defences around the perimeter to prevent being traped inside.

   Don't just use your barricades of Hesco, junked cars, or whatever to stop the varmints from entering.  Use them to funnel your attackers into kill zones.

Not certain of the setting, I really don't know Deadlands.  Defenses I do know though.  I can give you a quick run through and you (or anyone) is welcome to ask me questions here or through rMail.

1.)  Layered Defenses - What this means is don't make a single wall.  Have a secondary wall, possibly a tertiary one.  Have fall backs.  Another thing that can be done is different fortified buildings linked by tunnels.  If a building starts to fall, you blow the building and the connecting tunnels.  Preferably with the enemy in them.

2.)  Plan ahead - What happens when your community grows?  Farms especially will have to be outside the wall.  Create plans for everything, have backups for those, and backups for the backups.  Train in those plans.

3.)  Defense in Depth - Similar to the first one, this means having different types of defenses.  Clear field of fire.  Open pits.  Closed pits.  Mines.  Wire.  Trenches and moats.  Some of these you want visible, some you don't.  You DO want paths CLEARLY marked through the killing field, have these through the areas most easily targeted.  It helps your own people get through in an emergency and if the enemy uses them, you have them laid out where you can provide a withering field of fire.

4.)  Fire Lanes - Overlap your fields of fire.

5.)  Ease of Access - Make sure there are multiple access points to your defensive wall and a way to walk around it.

6.)  Guards - Use fixed and roving guards.  No one position should EVER be out of site of another.  Multiple guard posts should be used on the inner ring JUST to watch the guards.

Now as to WHAT to use?  It depends on what you have at hand.  In a post apocalyptic setting you have a variety of materiel.  Depending on how close you are to the apocalypse you might have working vehicles.  Semi trailers and especially cargo containers are wonderful for you.  Not only do they possibly have goodies inside them, they are a prebuilt wall, only needing some strengthening.

If you are close to a former port, it will be worth it to go to the port and retrieve them.  Not only will you have your defenses, whatever goodies they contain, but also there are almost always small fuel reserves for the trucks.  You will need an operating crane, both at the port and at home.  A good engineer can build you one.

Cars are another good wall materiel.  Remove EVERYTHING out of them.  Crush the body, flip it on it's side, drive stakes through it into the ground (have extra stakes that go up for cars above it and other defenses), fill it with rocks and dirt, and layer and overlap them.

Find a use for everything.  Engines are good for thick and hard defensive walls along with heavy catapult ammo if they don't work and good for MANY other things if they do.  Strip off all the parts and just use the block for the non working ones.

Tires have SOOO many uses, both defensively, as personal armor, in construction, etc.  For defenses, anchor them, and fill them with dirt.

Wheel rims.  These are especially important for building cranes and locks.

The electrical bits.  Congratulations, you now have power.  Use the wires and various bulbs to string up lights.  Alternators, will generate power.  Any electric motor will actually do this, you just work them in reverse.  One decent river, a couple of wind turbines, even some guys on bicycles can provide the input.

Glass.  Crush it and use it as filler in place of rocks.  You'd be surprised at how resilient auto glass really is.

Seats.  More armor or as just seats.

Soo many more things.

The real key is to set up basic defenses as soon as possible.  Then start working on better defenses.  Always have work going on the defenses.  Always improve them.  Anything you have in abundance can be used.  Everything is a resource, it's just finding a use for it.

I have no knowledge of your game system/setting either. However, I will toss in my two cents worth. In your list of defenses you've used, it sounds like you used trenches like they were used in WW2. in other words, you dug trenches and put your guards in those trenches.

this puts them out of sight of the enemy, but also out of sight of your allies and friends. I would suggest a slightly different approach to trenches. namely, go old school. build a moat. if your wall material is less than perfect, you can improve it by protecting it with a moat.

now, you can use the moat in various ways. first, you can fill it with water. if this is your choice, I would recommend going a step further and adding some form of dangerous wildlife into the mix. although, this requires that between attacks you feed said wildlife. maybe someone in the town/city happened to breed piranha? since flesh eating fish are not all that common in great numbers, you might consider alternatives for your moat. one that comes to mind is oil soaked ground at the bottom with wood. if attacked, you can always toss in a torch. this doubles for light to help night fighting, assuming you're not dealing with ranged attackers. if your enemy is not capable of climbing for some reason, you can just dig a really really deep moat, add in some supports to keep the walls up if necessary, and just leave it empty.

hopefully this helps spark some other ideas for you.

In reply to Karack (msg # 5):

No, you don't use the trenched for guards.  It's to slow and/or damage the enemy.  It's killing field, trench, then wall.  You can also have other trenches in the killing field.  You can fill the trenches and create a moat (and depend on your adversaries and local wildlife possible dangerous animal as you suggest.  Spikes and other traps are another potential.

It sounds like you are looking for some 'extreme alternative' defenses.  Not just stock wall, moat, whatever.  The above are most likely VERY effective, but perhaps instead of using the presumption of a flat ground with modifications you consider use of strange environs.

Image an underground subway station or line.  Or a freeway tunnel.

Perhaps the top of a skyscraper.

Look into cliff side fortifications.  Built right into walls with a narrow path going upwards.

What about a community on a giant raft made of boats tied together?

Maybe a community built on a mesa only accessible by a gondola or rope ladder/pulley for big heavy things.

Cities surrounded by a swamp that floods nightly into 6 foot deep water with only a narrow safe path to it.

"Tree houses" are a possibility, think about large towers kind of like the Eiffel Tower with housing hung up amongst the girders.

Classic nuclear shelters could be something to look into.  Like a complex a la Fallout.  There are some real things like this.  You could also use nuclear silos for extra interest.

Maybe someone got their hands on a blimp or other ridiculous and exotic long term flying device.  Consider a giant one for a very small community with fuel and stuff being retrieved by smaller balloons?

Throwing in 'magic' as the undead do imply throws in an almost unlimited number of combinations with these, but the above could have some interesting results.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 1):

The best route is to think about what sort of survivors and what sort of society this defensive settlement has.

All that stuff about "fields of fire" and "defense of depth" is all great and believable if the people of the settlement in your game are armchair commandos or military veterans, but your average Joe probably won't have that kind of knowledge.

Take a look at photos from modern day war zones and places with lots of civil unrest, and you'll get an idea of what makeshift defenses can be put in place by 'average' citizens in an 'apocalyptic' situation. They use a lot of buses, cars and even just using regular old buildings. Schools and churches often end up serving as makeshift fortresses in such situations.

Since it's for an RPG, I'd worry more about making the place memorable and interesting, rather than purely realistically defensible. Sure, perhaps a rusted old shipwreck wouldn't make for the best fortress, but it makes for an iconic and more memorable adventure location.

Actually even people who are not arm chair generals, history buffs, and military minds will still have interesting ideas on defense.

Moats: Everybody knows about them and that they don't need to filled with water.

Ramparts: Basically stacked and packed earth one dug up making the moat.

Barbed wire: there is loads of it every where and people will make fences of it.

Tree Stands/Tree Houses: in forested areas the best defense is living in the trees.

High ground: Putting your fortification on top of the hill is just good thinking.

Burn Fields: Making the easy way in through high tall and dry grass makes a wonderful defense, one torch and you're looking at cooked enemies.

I have a small suggestion, it's not much but it might help.

I am in this scenario assuming the settlement is isolated and not part of a nation, you will see why in a minute.  The only way into this settlement is through tunnels which lead down under a ring of mountains or something. Making approach any conventional way impossible.

It goes like this:


 |   |
 |   |
 |  _|
/   |
|_  |
 |   \
 |  _|
/   |
|_  |
 |   \
 |  _|
/   |
|_  |
 |   \
 |  _|
/   |
|   |
|   |



The enemy has to enter from the bottom, and the defenders take cover behind the flat spots, but when the attackers get into each flat spot they get shot by the defenders because of the slanted walls. And if the defenders were to lose the tunnel the same things that made it hard for the enemy to take it make it easy for the defenders to retake it. Anyone with firearms or military experience could easily think of the same thing.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Mershfresnin blergle, goramit: JASE!? WHY did you have to implement this 'easy tables' "Feature"? Screws with all my ASCII maps!
This message was last edited by the user at 21:56, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

Either I've found a few other vets, or some darn good military buffs. ;)  Ya'all are great.  Some of these suggestions are brilliant.  I haven't read them all just yet, working through them, but this is far more of a turnout than I expected.  Thank each and every one of ya.

Edit: So I'm seeing a whole lot of defensive suggestions for combat purposes.  Most of them I knew, some of them I forgot, and some of them I honestly hadn't even thought of.  Not a single bad suggestion here.

Some of the most brilliant key points I've seen are:

Glass.  My old man has installed windshields for as long as I can remember.  Would you believe I knew all about the film between the layers and how hard it is to break it out, but never once thought of using it as filler?  It'd even make a really good 'liner' for makeshift gabions.  It'd crack and web, but with the right effort it could easily overlap in such a way as to do the job every bit as well as fence.

Catapulting engine blocks (honorable mention) because... Really?  That's... That's twisted but awesome, not going to lie.  As much as I would like to use those as a defensive wall (Tried to shoot through a few, didn't work.. not with a 5.56 at any rate) I'm afraid they will now be reserved for catapults whenever the chance arises.

Trenches that double as moats.  Instead of filling them with water, and since oil would be fairly scare (deadlands h.o.e. is post-apocalyptic) you could fill it with rusty scrap and glass, with occasional stakes made out of metal fence posts and such.  Nevermind the sharp and pointy aspect, if you used it as a 'human waste' dump the enemies wouldn't live long enough through the diseases to worry about tetanus.

Skyscrapers might collapse, depending on how bombed out the city is, but people might be willing to take the risk.  Hmmm...  It could even be a very interesting 'terrify the players' moment when the building, already leaning, shifts several feet (a loud and rumbling affair, I'm sure) and they think it's going to fall 40 stories.

Cliff-side fortifications.  Nuff said.

Wind turbines doubling as watch towers.  Also water towers, obviously.  Old metal billboards would make a darn good lookout point as well, now that I think of it.

Mesas, since there's a great deal of 'em in the wasted west in some form or another.  Especially handy if you cut the ropes and drop them to the ground just before they reach the top of the ramped rope bridge.

Shipwreck, because it'd be memorable.  Harder to defend, but memorable.

Floating settlement is brilliant, considering you can make certain types of junk float very effectively.

Ramparts are handy.  They could also reinforce other forms of defense, as they did in past wars.  IE: ramparts leading up to the inside of a wall, making it virtually unbreakable to most vehicles including most tanks (which are so rare nobody's going to risk driving through a wall, surely).

That underground tunnel access.  It could be ESPECIALLY useful if combined with something else defensive.  Take, for example, a very solid structure such as an old cement walled building.  All the doors and windows are made completely inaccessible, even if that means you have to collapse the entire second floor (obviously not collapsing the supports if this is your plan) against the insides of them.  If a person can't get in any other way than a tunnel (either pre-existing or made post-war) you have an instant choke point and only one place to defend.  Now, how to light it?

NOTE: Magic is taboo.  But there are definitely some very fantastic elements that are pretty much magic, the writers just didn't want to call it as such. ;)  Your classic weird science (steampunk flamethrowers, laser weapons) fits in that realm in my opinion.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:07, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

Not exactly sure what the depiction really means.  I'm kind lost.  But I believe you are saying that the settlement is above the entrances yes?  If so, it's relatively easy to kill off the whole settlement.

You find all the entrances you can.  Take the entrances only.  You don't bother fighting your way up.  Find some dry brush or wood and a lot of debris.  Start yourself a fire at each entrance and then start throwing all the crap you can on it.  The idea is to create as much smoke as possible.  Any defenders close above will quickly either be forced to retreat or get overcome by smoke and heat from the chimney effect.

Unless they have a LOT of openings above them (and if they do there are other things to do then), they'll all be quickly overcome by smoke inhalation.  Pouring water down the shafts would be a poor (pun intended) way to put out the fires.  Most of it would be hitting the upper defenses creating a 'rain' effect.  If you've built the fire big enough, it will have little effect, creating only steam that harms the inhabitants.

Edit:  Now I see.  And yes my idea would nastily kill them off.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:54, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 11):

Yes, to both.  Vet and buff.  And you're welcome, I love this starfruit.

I updated my last message. Didn't expect replies so quickly. :D

ALSO: I just realized you could totally make a mud wall.  The Afghans loved their mud walls, both for buildings and for walls around their compounds.  You could use this on a larger scale, especially if there's a mote around the outside, and the outsides of those walls you could literally cover with sharp jagged pieces of scrap metal and glass while the mud's still wet.  When it dries, ain't nobody gonna want to try and scale it without a ladder.

Edit: pfarland, I think he was saying that would just be the entrance.  I can see the problems with it, but all things can be overcome with time and pressure and a good tactical mind.  I just hope you don't end up a raider after the bombs drop, you crafty monster you.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:11, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

What do you guys think of using an underpass as the entrance to a settlement?  Barricade it of course, make a wall along the overpass/bridge above it, and continue that wall around the settlement.  But it could be re purposed as a gate I hope.

The mud is a good basis.  Mix in grass/weeds and let it dry.  It actually has a name, but it's escaping me for the moment.

Also, if you have access to clays in the soil (many places do) you can form them into blocks and either sun dry them or toss them in a kiln.  Now you have bricks.

Tunnels are good escape routes, but leave them as such.  Build locks (like you have in channels) as your entrances.

Locks?  Explain please.  I'm not sure what you mean.

Edit: I just looked up channel locks on the google monster.  I got the tools.  I feel like an idiot.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:24, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 17):

Locks basically at each entrance/exit have a fenced in area with inner gate and outer gate that open separately. A group would have to come through both gates. For best effect make them so only one can be open at a time.

Ohhhh.  That makes sense to me. :)  You just gave me an idea.  Weights and counter weights.  One gate drops, the other lifts.  (Unless they are both manually lowered into down position.)  It would be much easier on communities with low fuel/power sources, because it could be done with a pulley system.

Actually, that might be terrible- my counterweight system I mean.  Unless they were offset, a motorcycle or two could fly right through.  If they're (they being the rider) of the self-destructive kind (I'm sure you know what I mean) it could be very bad for the gate as a whole.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:29, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

Edit: well that didn't work.  Off to paint I go!
This message was last edited by the user at 22:37, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ncnsq0&s=8


You mean something like this, right?  (Gray being gates, black being wall or fence)

If you have a road leading up to your entrance, you use jersey walls and stagger them down the road for a bit.  Stops anyone from approaching at a high speed.

Jersey walls are the concrete dividers you see on freeways and highways.  You could pick them up with a tow truck (the kind that carries the car on the back).  You could probably get a few on at a time.  The would also be helpful placed right before your ditch/moat.  Give it a greater effective depth, shield any thing like spikes from eyes until the last minute and provide an extra barrier against ramming attacks.  If your wall is decently high even (say 15 ft high) they wouldn't provide any effective cover for the enemy.

Jersey barriers! THANK you.  I've been trying to remember what those are called forever. :\  I knew they had a name.  What are the big square cement blocks, which kind of serve the same purpose?  We used those at a few of our gates on Okinawa.  Do they have a name, or is it just 'cement block'?

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 21):

That is just one way.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 23):

Are you talking about dragons teeth?

No, but those are pretty cool.  I was talking about these ugly but efficient things:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/...133_128cf2642d_z.jpg

I also had an idea, while we were discussing rocks.  What about intermingling vertical structural support (either logs, railroad ties, or metal construction beams for example) and debris?

Example:

If the vertical supports were too rare to make a wall entirely of it, place them every x yards/meters and use them to support stacked rubble, stone, and other solid junk.  Cars, engine blocks, tires, et cetera.


Also: ya'all mentioned filling stuff with dirt.  In lieu of hesco or gabions, you could use barrels if you stumbled across enough of them.  Preferably barrels that couldn't be used for other things like water storage.  I'd say barrels that used to contain petroleum products, fertilizers or pesticides.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:00, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

Those blocks are just straight up concrete barricade blocks.

As for your idea it's a good one if you are limited and can't find larger things.

The more anchors you have into the ground, the less chance of the wall toppling over.  It really doesn't matter what you use as long as it has some strength.  My idea about the crushed and filled car?  I would only bother with two downward supports and two upward ones for the car above it.  Intermingling things into the wall would work, though if you are using small debris you'll need an outer casing.

I'd like to reiterate one of the before mentioned ideas someone had, by the way: windshields and back glasses.  Especially if you're making walls out of crushed vehicles.  You could take out most or all of the windshields, provided you had the time, and put them outside the walls, though you'd have to find some way to make them stay in place.  Smash them up.  Nobody's gonna want to try to climb your call wall then. ;)

Good call on the anchors by the way.  I honestly hadn't thought about the fact that the cars would just fall over.  I just assumed they stayed put, as I never looked inside them when I was in junkyards. :\


Not really 'defense', but I found a can of swollen unmarked foodstuffs once when cleaning out a storage unit.  (Don't ever work for a storage place.. Bad things you find in those units.)  We tossed it in a dumpster and it exploded all over the inside.  I gagged for a full two minutes after that, just from the smell.  Spoiled foods, especially those that build pressure in the decaying process, would make one h*** of a biological weapon in a pinch.

Never underestimate the value of natural defenses. thorn bushes, briers, stinging or poisonous plants are not going to stop an enemy dead int their tracks, but they make getting into the compound/settlement harder.While they can be hacked out of the way, burned, or removed by other means that takes time and makes noise.

I know that in some regions native tribesmen would use thorns, and other local plants to construct barriers and rings around compounds. A similar trick might be to use blackberry or other thorny vines In areas where they are native. A wall of blackberry bushes, thorn trees, or even stinging nettles, could do much the same job as barbed wire..in the case of thorny fruit/berry plants they also provide food.

Another layer of defenses could be cans, bottles, or other debris on strings or vines. These would alert a group to intruders and would be hard to spot among undergrowth..naturally occurring or intentionally seeded around the out perimeter of the compound.

Broken concrete, wrecked cars, guardrails, and railroad ties are also a cheap plentiful source of material and can be moved without the need for heavy equipment...well unless you want to make your walls out of those large concrete dividers found along highways.

Bits of glass, bone, or metal can be planted in shallow pits, and then covered with trash or undergrowth, hidden in the rings of thorns etc. one wrong step means an intruder ends up with a nasty gash in his leg or foot. making a lot of noise in the process.

In reply to w byrd (msg # 30):

Thorny vines are a really good idea.  Especially if you 'seeded them' along your debris wall and helped them grow.  Over a few seasons (I'm guessing a few seasons) it'd grow over those crushed cars and make climbing them less than enjoyable.  Wouldn't suggest it for a mud wall or anything like that though, as they'd hasten the destruction of said wall by growing into its surface.

Edit: another thought: it'd draw in animals.  Birds, small furry woodland creatures, all of which are a good food source.  Just watch out for snakes...  Those would help with defense of course, but not if you're the one they decided to nail. ;)

Edit # 2:
In the case of a 'car wall' or other vehicles, it'd tie them down and more firmly cement them in place over a few years.  I would know.. Tried to move an old ford truck (had to be from the 20s) out of a bramble once.  It wasn't very keen on moving.  Ended up having to burn the whole patch down just to get it out of there.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:21, Fri 15 Aug 2014.

In a desert climate, fill your trench with cacti opposed to brambles and briar patches. ;)

Glad you liked my idea for the vehicle glass.

Barring some of the excessive thorny plants most of them are but a minor nuisance, especially is the enemy is heavily clothed, armored, or zombies.  And if you're doing a car wall, you do want the vehicles on their sides and then layered.

-- -- -- --
 -- -- --
-- -- -- --
 -- -- --

Like that.  Caking other materials on the wall helps.  One of the things about armor in general, different types of materiel protect well against different things.  Kevlar for instance is great vs bullets, but sucks vs knives.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 31):

Well drawing in small animals, and snakes helps with the food too... If the snake has faulty friend or Foe systems you just add it to the potluck....

And in desert areas there are a bunch of trees that that make barbed wire look warm and friendly....

In reply to w byrd (msg # 34):

Rattlesnake actually tastes pretty good.

Confirming that knife thing.  Also: never take bets against it, you'll lose.

What you're saying is: layer the cars vaguely like bricks.  Noted.  And yes, that glass idea was brilliant.  I was thinking so much about how to use cars after fuel went out that I never considered the uses of the windshields.

I just watched a movie called Stakeland for the first time today, and was really impressed with their use of the train. If you haven't seen it, they basically utilized a train that was already in the town as a mobile gate.  While I'm sure you'd run out of coal sooner or later, if you could somehow keep it coming (a nearby coal mine perhaps) it'd be quite the handy little barrier.

w byrd:

Not to mention, since deadlands is horror-pocalypse (for lack of better words) there are even more mutated freak plants (especially in deserts) that could do the same. ;)  Just as long as you kept them trimmed down.  Can't have man eating vines nabbing your sentries as they walk the wall.



Special note: If you absolutely must use an underground terrain, such as hand dug tunnel systems, take a page from those b***tard VC.  They had dual tunnel systems from time to time, one set directly above the other like so

______________________________________

The tunnel you know about and are in.
______________________________________

The tunnel those peaches are in.
______________________________________


They would line the floor with whatever they could to stabilize it.  Crisscrossing roots and wood thatching, with regular support to keep it from shifting, then cover the 'floor' of the upper tunnel with dirt.  From underneath they'd spear or shoot the poor guy sent in to clear the tunnel...  It's a terrifying tactic, and I despise them for it, but it'd be very effective if used right.  And they usually did.

Alternatively, you could rig it up with 'cover' and drop them into a pit full of god only knows what.  It's really hard to backpedal and avoid falling through the trap when you only have a few inches of overhead clearance and your shoulders are touching the walls. :\

Personal note: To any Vietnam vets who read this: I am very, very sorry.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 04:14, Tue 19 Aug 2014.

Yep, layer them like bricks.  Horizontally and vertically.  The whole key is to find something that is widely available and has no use.  Find a use for it.

And yeah, I wasn't there, but the tunnels were NASTY.  The guys that went into them, the Tunnel Rats, truly some BAD APPLE men.  I knew a SEaL from 'nam and he had some SERIOUS respect for them.

Knew a Marine from back then Interestingly, the reason I went in though he tried numerous times to talk me out of it.  He said he was never happier to be tall...  Sure, it made him a bigger target above ground, but at least he didn't have to go in the holes.

Yeah, there was a lot of that thought process going on.

you should be able to find coal or other fuel sources fairly easy.... especially if you have a map of local power plants, foundries etc... and if you in the kentucky,virginia area there are multi hundred ton stockpiles laying around.


yeah, poison spitting tendrils creeping into your camp should only occur in certain disreputable animated movies. of course if they are targeting the cannibalistic mutants trying to get in to eat you.....then it's a source of free entertainment.

Depending on how sadistic the mayor, self-appointed god king, or other guiding entity is, he might find it just as funny if it happened to be a citizen.  But that should be the exception rather than the norm, I would think.

For defenses: what do you think about living in a subway tunnel?  I know it's been done before, but I wonder how viable it is.

problem with tunnels is flooding, and how quickly the air can go bad. Mold mildew, and such can pull the oxygen out of the air in a confined area scary fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackdamp

Well, disregarding the problems arising with food and water, it has some good and bad points.  So say you have a crap load of food and water...

Your settlement will be quite hidden and you can focus your defenses in pretty much two directions.  This also helps the enemy if they assault by letting them focus their forces.  But for the most part you can make your fortress extremely tough.

It also nixes any siege weapons other than ballistae.  The darkness does provide cover for the enemy.  If your defenses are breached though, you are in some deep starfruit.  You are reduced to running down the other main tunnel or maybe some access tunnels.  Where in an open area above ground everyone can scatter forcing a pursuing force to either focus or split up.

Fires, gases, and liquids are a serious problem with tunnel dwelling.

Being that I look at worst case scenarios, I would suggest against it.

See, the great thing about running a game is that the failed attempts only add to the horror. ;)  Imagine the players' surprise when they're told about a 'safe community', the last holdout at the very edge of a city... Only to show up and find every last soul dead.  Scorched, or trapped and mowed down after a valiant last stand.  Everything looted.  Or even worse: a natural disaster floods it and the whole place is underwater... Nothing but flood water and a few drowned corpses floating near the opening, to signal the final fate of the others entombed below.

This is why I'm just as willing to accept less functional forms as well.  If we can think of it, so can the would-be survivors.  And if it's doomed to fail, well, that just makes the situation seem all the more gloomy.  Just like in the weird west (a western prequel to the apocalypse one) ghost towns were frequently stumbled upon, less frequent failed settlements can be a good way to show just how violent and desperate the new world has become.
This message was last edited by the user at 02:03, Sat 16 Aug 2014.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 44):

If it's an ongoing campaign let things get bad.  REALLY bad.  Have the characters limp into the safe haven, they are FINALLY safe and secure.  Give them a couple of days for the safety to sink in.  Start having the town talk to them about new missions or thing that the town needs them to do.

Then RIP THE FRUITING rug out from under them!  I has more impact that way.  Let them get to know the townspeople.  Let them think they have safety.  They won't expect it!

One thing that works real well irl and in games

After you plant all you thorn bushes go through and set up a razer or barb wire fence along them so it will grow all around the fence and the fence is in the middle of a think mass of bushes.

This hides it very well and makes it very likely intruders will hurt themselves if they try and go through.

Works better though with non thorny bushes though I think....just have them tall and thick with no trees around, so they have to go through and can't go over

pfarland, I've done something similar once before with a different group.  They stopped off at the same village (it was a fantasy RPG) at least a dozen times throughout the campaign.. But those 'd*** orks' the townsfolk kept complaining about were 'beneath them'.  They never went and took care of it.  Every time they went through there were numerous complaints from townspeople, and about 8 game nights worth of foreshadowing (spaced periodically throughout about a year).  Things were progressively getting a little worse, they were hitting farms on the outskirts.  Still the PCs couldn't be bothered to waste their time.  Bigger problems to take care of and whatnot.  One day they came into the village, expecting their normal heroes welcome (despite the ork problem they did take out several other nasties)... But the village was gone.  Sacked.  Burned to the ground, and their (being the townsfolk) remains were graphically described among the wreckage and hanging from their own town walls.

Them's the breaks.  Shoulda done something about them 'd*** orks' instead of deciding 'they haven't been a big problem so far, the guards can handle it'.

They went on a warpath so to speak.  The PCs, I mean.  They stormed the area where they suspected the orks to be, but they had moved on six months ago.  Nothing but small reminders that they were ever there, including a dropped earring from one of the PCs' on-and-off romantic interest...

A bit dark, but dark is good.  Consequences usually aren't sunshine and rainbows.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:58, Sat 16 Aug 2014.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 47):

That's just good RP.  Plus, they kinda deserved that.

In reply to Azraile (msg # 46):

Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Could also put some other traps in the hedge row.  Bear traps and the like on the 'inside', after they think they've made it there's still a chance of breaking a leg. ;)

pfarland: Darn right they did.  :\   One of the players even said "Stop trying to wrangle us into a plot."  He seriously misinterpreted.  I never lead them, I only put the options there.  I never force them, but if they don't at least look into a situation there have to be repercussions.  That one was more extreme than most of my consequences, but honestly "They're raiding our farms" is sort of an escalation of force.  It'd have taken 4 level 15s a very short time to at least chase the orks off.

In one of my games a large amount of the cities souls were stolen by the midnight carnival. They managed to get there hands on one of the two phalactories but that was it. So they only saved half the souls.

On the bright side only having the souls for one of the two horrid evils in charge ment some drastic changes in management lol

On the down side they let the guy who had already sold his soul hold onto it.... And he promptly used the souls of several thousands to buy his back and claim more demonic power. Then told them he found a way to open it and set all the souls free.  X.x

Lol

Yay for city wide disastrous allowed by pcs

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 49):

Lack of consequences is just one of my annoyances with fantasy campaigns.  Good to see at least one GM that doesn't let that happen.

But, yeah, pulling the rug out in a situation that the PC's have no capability to really respond to is a very good way to keep the grimdark setting in a post apocalyptic game.

Oh yah

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/...Midnight-Circus?it=1

Awesome supplement if you don't play WoD I might still adapt to your system

But now you got me wanting to use it in a post apocalyptic setting

lol can you imagine in a post apocalyptic setting.... A circus coming to town?  0.o

Oh sure it's an evil soul stilling body warping mind altering circus of death, but it don't seam like it... Not until it's to late!

Lol though I think anyone smart enough to survive the end of the world would be awfully suspicious about the place

I played one with some friends a while back.  Necropolis something or rather.  Savage worlds game.  We were given a choice...  Abandon a city and 500 citizens, or die with them.  That was it.   There was no alternative.  Not enough ships and the dead were leading a mass siege.  Our PCs ordered all NPC sergeants (the backups, think Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40k) to evacuate and the knights (elites, like Space Marines vaguely) stood their ground.  We were rewarded with a completely epic death though, and even got to draw up new knights a level higher than those we sacrificed.  Worst thing is, the way the GM ran it, I genuinely felt bad for the townsfolk NPCs.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:25, Sat 16 Aug 2014.

In reply to Azraile (msg # 52):

All I have to say is: get Hell on Earth Reloaded.  Seriously.  There's a carnival of the dead in it, lead by some screwy AI that went brain-fried.  It would send in an audio-recording on some kind of giant blimp (can't remember if it was a blimp or a hover-plane of some kind) and broadcast a cheery message about the carnival coming.  That night, hundreds of semi-intelligent zombie carnies would overwhelm and destroy.

Carnival!  Why didn't I think about using a carnival or amusement park as a settlement?  Has that been done before?

Heck, that would be the BEST thing about it.  If the GM got you to feel that, he was doing a better job than most other ones out there.

And somewhat.  Zombieland.  And it would be horrible to try and defend a place like that.  The only way I see a settlement springing up is for some sort of resource there.  If it isn't an already established town, there has to be a reason people chose it.

True, I was just thinking of creative ideas.  Seems a little outlandish though.  Also, we saw how well that worked in Z-Land. ;)  But yeah, no carnivals then.  Unless it's some kinda crazy mutant cult that worships 'the great wheel' (ferris wheel).  That could be interesting.

The GM did a very good job of it.  But then, I was also very emotionally committed to my character.  We all were.  So it was really a joint effort to make the world.  And that is what I don't really like about RPers these days, or at least the majority of them.  Everyone wants something but they don't want to contribute. :(

EDIT:

Apparently *** is still profanity on here.  This is news to me, I haven't read the rules in a looooong time and just decided to refresh myself.  Sorry to anyone offended by my asterisks.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:34, Sat 16 Aug 2014.

Noooo the midnight circus is much more subtle most people don't even know there soul is bing stollen or the guy next to them was just brutally murdered no no no that all comes later when they get home and the confetti that shot out of the target the guy held up for the archer is blood and the sure toy remember the horrid truth that the target was actually a brass ring he shot the flaming arrow threw not into

While I have no idea what you just said, I'll take it. :P

Back to structural defense brainstorming.  Burying buses, semi trailers, shipping crates and con-ex boxes are apparently good ideas for makeshift tornado/crisis shelters.  If you're ever running a P.A. game and want to utilize it, perhaps some pre-war survival types set some up somewhere and the PCs stumble across it?  Whether or not they're the first is entirely up to you.

LOL

There is an EXSTREAMLY powerful glamor over the midnight circus blinding people from it's true horrors for some time. Until they are fully entangled into them or they have been away long enough to realize what really happened.

One of the ring shows is the 'four horsemen' (of well you know) some people in the audience are given 'targets' these targets to hold up in front of them. The targets are brass rings, the glamor makes them seam to be wooded circles with the standard kinda arrow target on them.  Burring the act one of the horsemen shoots flaming arrows through the rings and into the hearts of the people that hold them up. The glamor makes it look like the arrows hit the targets and explode into glitter and the like.

There is also a side show where a (were) bear on a motorcycle with chainsaws chases clowns around..... There not clowns, and the blood is not fake....

Then there is the magic show... the exploding men dose not explode into puffs of smoke and ceffetie, and he dose not show back up in the audience perfectly fine .... he dose get dragged off stage though for the next part of the act.....

then there is a demonic whore house where anything is possible.... anything....


yah.... there is a lot of stuff there..... that is worse and worse, that I can not talk about here with out it getting deleted.  lol

It is down right twisted. While hiding behind a happy family safe face.

Sounds cool.  Off topic as heck, but cool. ;)  Moving on.  Anyone has any more suggestions for re-purposed goodies, especially anything large that can be utilized as part of a solid wall, let me know.

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was off-topic, at 08:24, Sat 16 Aug 2014.

In reply to Dark Devine (msg # 61):

Well, I kinda need to know where the safe haven would be and how many years after the end.  And what kind of end, nukes tend to jack everything up where zombies tend to leave a lot of the fun stuff around.  There is just so much different stuff around and it's just a matter of thinking about what uses it has.

It also really depends on what your enemy is.  You always have humans, but if your other antagonist is zombies, you set up defenses differently than you do for mutant beasts.  Also especially with zombies the details matter.  Are they shamblers, runners, or do you have a full out Dead Reign spread?

The principal:

World war 3.  Followed by nukes.  Followed by supernatural craziness.

However, to truly understand you will need a long backstory.  I hope you don't mind reading a little.  I'll try to summarize, but keep it interesting and thorough.

SPOILER!!!!

In Deadlands, an evil group of spirits/demons (it never really specifies) going by the term 'reckoners' gains most of their power by spreading fear.  This starts with an incident known as 'the reckoning' back in the civil war, where one particularly ticked off group of indians open the flood gates to the spirit world where these dark things reside.  This subsequently causes two immediate things:

1. Through tectonic shifts caused by the chaotic change in space time (I just made that up, it never explains) California becomes massively fragmented and almost falls into the ocean, leaving it a broken jutting landscape of mesas and islands as well as a maze of channels.

2.  A mysterious new mineral is unearthed.  Due to its white color and the fact that it burns hotter than coal (and seems to 'shriek' as the gasses emit during the burning) it is dubbed ghost rock.

Subsequently, the event and addition of ghost rock prolongs the civil war by at least a decade, and the north and south never unify.

This part is known as the Weird West, and is a prequel series to Wasted West which we are discussing now.  It is important to this because the reckoners, as they have been dubbed, are sending agents of darkness to cause as much havoc as they can and 'terrorform' our reality into one that is dark and evil enough for them to 'live' in.  They're not stupid enough to open the flood gates at this period of time- they tried that before and it was met with resistance.  Humanity's willful, and if they can NAME an enemy they WILL eventually unify to fight it.  So they worked the shadows, forged the nightmares, seeded the world with terrors small and large...  They were in it for the long haul.  Being immortal, they had nothing but time.

However, special factions such as the Texas Rangers and the Pinkerton Detective agency- and later the feds (your quintessential men in black) are founded after certain people 'in the know' figure out what seems to be going on.  They can't find the gate (it's not a physical thing) so they do their best to destroy any monster the reckoners make, and to keep fear low as possible by any means possible- including covering up the stories so people don't believe in them.

World war 3 happens in the 2060s-ish, after a very long north-south cold war.  It starts as a civil war, but various other governments of the world come to the clarion call.  It's important to note that North and South America both handled WWII in different ways in this alternate reality.  Both were working to stop the axis, but both supported different allies and sparked their own alliances.

When the North and South, who happen to have the ONLY major ghost rock clusters in the world, go to war this quickly causes turmoil.  Gasoline is running out just like in our world, and ghost rock is the next most viable form of fuel.  So, people start trying to gain favor with the north or south respectively, so they can secure their claims.

WWIII lasts several bloody years, fought mostly in America though other nations start to clash as well.  Especially in Europe.  Then, some pistachio decides to launch the bomb.  Everyone blasts everyone, and 99% of those used are 'ghost rock bombs'- a high altitude ghost-rock powered thermonuclear device designed to cause mass casualties while causing minimal (though not entirely non-existent) structural damage.

As you might expect, many people die.  The world is plunged violently and suddenly into a period of nuclear winter.  This raises the fear level exponentially, world-wide.  The reckoners are released, taking the forms of the biblical four horsemen. While they are NOT biblical entities (Deadlands doesn't pick sides on religion) they understand the importance of symbolism and abuse the fear the four horsemen bring to further feed their power.  With them come hundreds of thousands of other 'dark spirits' (or manitous), taking any shape that scares the fudge out of those that see them.

Eventually, without spoiling how, the reckoners are forced to go away.  Perhaps imprisoned, perhaps not.  If I've wet your whistle then I certainly don't want to ruin anything you won't know after a few short games or a read through the book. :)

When they're removed from the equation, the apocalypse is stymied.  Not stopped, just stymied.  Their agents return to harassing the locals (though with a whole lot more of a heavy hand than before) and humanity is left to try and pick up the pieces.  The only real difference is now the lid's off, and everyone knows the monsters under the bed are real- and they have teeth.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 04:15, Tue 19 Aug 2014.

Ok, so basically modified history, then into the future.  Enemies are monsters and of course other people.  How long after the nukes and ghost rock bombs are dropped does the game take place?

Personally, not my thing.  Completely not, but I can contribute to it.

20 years.

If your a real evil dill pickle you could build a moat with razer wire or barb wire in it and contaminate the water somehow even if it's just urinating in it every day.

Just make sure anyone that tries an swim or wade it is getting an infection

20 years means that the only fuel is what is produced.  Vehicles will still be there and not rusted into nothingness.  The wiring and electrical systems will occasionally work.  Most scrap will have been picked over at least once.

Just remember, find a use for everything.  Old soup can?  Use it as a grenade body, small amount of explosive and some shrapnel.  Old phone books?  Tree sap and varnish and you have armor.

I've always been against using bio near my own place.  You're playing with fire.

In reply to Azraile (msg # 67):

problem there is that it is a major health hazard for the local population. moats tend to draw mosquitoes, and other insects. You also have the smell, and the general nastiness of a large cesspool completely surrounding our home.
  Planting cattails and other water plants might help, serving as a biological clean up system, as well as drawing in frogs, minnows, and birds, but  ab ig stagnant sup is a formula for dysentery and mosquito borne disease.

Now diverting a stream to flow through trenches with a steady flow to keep the insects and filth under control would work rather nicely. In addition a large fresh water source would be good for powering water wheels, and providing pens for fish farming.

Yah true trying to get some one infacted could get you infected more likely every way I think about it.... even if it's a trap it would have to be an awfull well sealed trap, and then what about cleaning it up after it went off?   no... the traps in the water are still a good idea... paticuarly if it's a muddy stream.


and hey have a net at the end of the stream who knows what might get cut up in the razer wire? lol maybe free fish!

Really, keep the razor wire out of the water.  Too likely it'll get tangled up with stuff and reduce it's effectiveness.  Have the stream semi shallow, 3 foot deep say.  Make sure it's nice and silty upstream, makes the water murky.  Line the stream bed with punji stakes.  Old rebar works great for this.  You can even be a real biscuit and slice and bend in barbs.

Edit:  Tetanus sucks, plus you have a nasty chance of infection from the water and stake beyond tetanus.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:08, Sun 17 Aug 2014.

true anything to do to keep stuff out of the water upstream won't keep stuff falling in and tangling up there.....

so many problems lol

still there is potentail for something here..... people see a moat they think it's a moat.... something to slow them down, nothing else.

Throwing something in to hurt them (Besides wild animals which is the only real exspected threat) can catch people off guard

there looking for alagators or something and get a stake through there foot....

Another variant (though it doesn't work very well in water), is a small foot sized pit about knee deep.  With this one you need multiple spikes pointing down.  Camouflage the pit, some reeds or a grass mat across the top.  This one you're fine stepping into the pit (other than maybe a good ankle twist).  The thing is you can't pull you leg out without removing the muscles from your leg or digging the whole pit out.

That could work well enough underwater if the water is muddy

Yes, but it creates a lot of upkeep.  Dirt and sediment collects in them too quick, especially if the stream is flowing.  Much easier to keep it out and straight up punji's in the water.

Misdirection is another fun thing.  If you're worried about an enemy that can think and read, Make yourself a fake minefield.  Label it, and have fake probes strewn about.

If you have a lot of 12-gauge shells laying about, there are lots of things you can do with them.  With a little work and scrap you can make them into mini-mines, micro- grenades, and other goodness.

good thing to do with that....

make a very very big fake mine field....  with a rather random strip of real mines a good 2/3rds the way into it.

True.  Or mine the areas NEXT to the minefield.

Fake mine pit is a pretty darn good idea.  I hadn't thought of that.  Especially since there are people who specialize in making junk-mines (think bottlecap mines from fallout).  So there'd be a very real fear of approaching a field of small junk objects (edited afterthought: in fact, from real life experience, I would be especially weary of any out-of-place junk anyway).  They go through enough to determine it's a decoy, and that's when they really start to risk stepping on the real thing.

Pitfalls are good ideas also, especially considering most people will have to work with what they have.  Same goes for moats, and having them lined with nasty surprises helps greatly.  It's like my 'junk pit' idea, just add water. ;)  Then they aren't going to simply look in, decide "Eh, sharp stuff in there" and find another way.  They'll lose a few first.

I was doing some research on the subject, and found another use for those pesky useless junk car engines.  As you said, not all will be just piles of scrap- some will still run.  But those that don't?  Well it's much easier to lift an engine with a pully system than a whole car.  So you could have an old school trip wire system, and an engine welded to (or just otherwise secured by) chain.  Down it drops, down the intruder in the doorway goes (fair punishment, he should've watched his step) and you simply reset it with a pulley system later.

Shotgun shells are a dirty little trick, especially for enemies such as cannibals that'd rather take someone off at a leg and slow them down for otherwise fresh meat.  It'd be rather traumatic for the players to watch an NPC companion get taken off at the leg, then have to decide whether to fight off the Sawyer family or hide.  The former will ensure plenty of bloodshed, the later the horrific experience of watching one of your own get dragged off to be somebody else's dinner.  And also make them watch under their feet from then on.

Let's see.  I also thought about it and realized that (this part isn't defense but) plastic can be restructured very easily for the sake of repurposing.  Saw a boat made entirely out of plastic bottles and fiberglass sealant (spray on I think they used).  Crazy thing is, not only did it float but it seemed to have a much longer 'life expectancy' than I expected.

But yeah, back to defense.  I was thinking on the concept of light.  After all, someone's gotta watch the walls or posts after the sun goes down (especially then).  Fuel would be rather wasted and run out sooner or later, so I don't see a gas fueled light system working too well for too long.  I was thinking 'reserve it and use trip-wire pop-up-flares'.  But I'm not sure how long those would last either. That's a rather finite resource.  Other than simple torches, can anybody think of a sustainable source of light? Something that could be dependable for a while?  Only thing I can really think of is wind-up flashlights and those... Well... You'd have to be pretty lucky to have many of them.
This message was last edited by the user at 08:33, Sun 17 Aug 2014.

Scavenge some solar panels and hook up spotlights to batteries and trip wires.

Actually, if you have someone that knows some electrical engineering, getting some power isn't very hard.  Batteries aren't too terribly difficult to make/repair.  Wire is just free for the taking, the same with lights.  Most lights aren't terribly dependent on a steady current and could even run off a twelve volt system.

Generating the electrical power isn't that difficult.  Any electrical motor can be used in reverse to make electricity.  How you turn that motor doesn't really matter.  It can be driven by water, wind, steam, or animal (humans work best for this using old bicycles).  Once you have the basic system set up you wouldn't need much in the way of upkeep.

Torches are another semi-renewable method.  Especially if you use pitch.  Just remember to place them near the out side of the perimeter.  Back lighting the enemy is more effective and gives them less light to see you by.  If they snuff the torches you know they are there and can use spot lights.  You can even make 'torch spot lights' using mirrors to focus the light.

Hrm, except the numbers I've seen on using humans to generate electricity by bicycles have generally shown that it's totally untenable for anything but a short-term stop-gap.  Humans need to consume far more calories than is reasonable to even be able to, say, run a few lightbulbs a night.  ( http://www.motherearthnews.com...e.aspx#axzz3AfQnOwp8 )  I tend to figure that in an apocalypse situation human time can be spent better than generating electric, and quality calories might be hard to find.

I have a crank-powered radio for example, but honestly, it gets old real fast.  By hour five of a power outage I'm already in the "I couldn't possibly care what's going on out there enough to crank that thing some more."  Of course, "what's going on out there" has never been a zombie apocalypse, so far (except that once).
This message was last edited by the user at 16:29, Sun 17 Aug 2014.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 81):

Are human powered generators efficient?  Not in the least.  If it's the only method you have though, it is better than nothing.  You're not going to run much, but you can get a few things going.  You can use them to charge batteries that will later power things that are used on an infrequent basis.

In reply to pfarland (msg # 82):

Right.  Where I think my doubt comes in is that if food is scarce, spending your energy recharging batteries is a poor choice, imo.  I look at it as expenditure of energy is essentially a food-based trade.  That'd have to be an insanely important battery to be spending your hard-earned food on.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:34, Sun 17 Aug 2014.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 83):

Nothing has been said about food being scarce.  Of course, if that's the case, living takes a bit higher priority.  And really, there are other methods almost all better and most likely available, to any surviving community.

Some engine blocks high up so they have a fair distance to fall, attached to cables or barbed wire or something. The wires are spread around on the ground on an approach. When someone is in the area, release the block, it tightens the wire potentially ripping open their legs, but also potentially trapping them.

Being able to use radios, and flashlights would be a huge advantage. Workig after dark increases the productivity of a group. While a handheld radio allows work groups to communicate, or warn of danger.

fortunately there are a lot of other means of charging batteries available ..anyone with some basic skills and the right instructions can whip up a power pack and generator from any DC motor, automotive alternator, etc into a power pack.

in addition a clever fella could grab one of those handy solar power units that are used to power roadside lights and information transmitters along modern highways.

once a power source was available, the same halfway decent electrician could probably cobble together enough parts to rig LED lighting. This would allow people to work after dark without burning fuel. A simple waterwheel or wind mill would be more than enough to allow the system to operate.

In reply to w byrd (msg # 86):

I think he meant that only in regards to using human powered energy generation methods and with the supposition of food scarcity.  If that's the case, then yes, it's a poor choice.

With the setting being 20 years later, I'm not sure of the continued viability of solar cells.

Another method would be steam powered.  With a decent sized steam engine you could actually power a small town.

http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

Oh no doubt after twenty years any form of power generation device is going to be iffy. solar cells usually lose their zip when they get dirty or corroded, but tend to have a long shelf life if protected in some way from moisture and dirt...say a pae of glass, and a bit of caulking.

when you talk about generating electricity you have to consider the effort and skills needed to operate a power plant. Cutting wood, or gathering fuel takes calories, which has o come from potentially limited food. Steam engines is that they require some fairly uncommon skills to build.

on the other hand Simply stripping an alternator off a wreck, or a DC motor out of a car then attaching it to a waterwheel or wind mill requires only basic skills. About any electrician or person with basic electronics knowledge could rig a power pack from lead acid batteries, which will last a very long time if properly maintained.

Now, if you happen to find a functional steam engine, yes, they are remarkably durable and can be fueled by any flammable material. if you happen to live in an area where coal is common you can usually find exposed coal banks that can be excavated with pick and shovel.

In reply to w byrd (msg # 88):

True, to a point.  Though if you have someone that has the engineering principles down and the people to make it, it wouldn't be that difficult.

We've seen in other cultures that have experienced culture clash or their own mini apocalypse that if knowledge isn't continually maintained, it's rather easy to lose it.

People (let's call them mechanics) have a set of skills but then it becomes very difficult to put these skills into practice and they aren't called upon to exercise these skills very often.  These mechanics then start to age and the youth don't really see the point in learning these archaic useless skills and the mechanics only tend to teach how to fix something right now.  In other words, the mechanics tend to teach how to repair something now and don't teach the underlying skills which would be required to build something new in the future.

From entire languages, to weaving water-tight baskets, and all sorts of other cultural crafts, it's pretty easy to lose "important" cultural skills and knowledge within the relatively short timespan of only 20 years.

Anyway, if you want to see what would be required to continue civilization, here's the best site I know: http://opensourceecology.org/

If you want the best post-apocalyptic defenses, it's to rebuild civilization.  Look at your house now -- are you worried about looters breaking in and pillaging everything?  Well, maybe if you live in Ferguson, Missouri or somewhere.  But normally you're not really worried, right?  Sure, you could go buy bunches of guns, but eventually you have to sleep and if people are all starving enough and they hear that you have food, they're going to keep coming and eventually your erstwhile neighbors will be hitting your house hard enough that you'll fall.  So you can't just defend yourself, you need to build up your neighbors as well to share the burden of defense and because 1+1+1 can equal 5 if you all really support each other (a good group is more than the sum of its parts).

Besides, if you really want to keep you and your family going, you basically have to keep civilization going or be able to rebuild civilization.  All precious metals and things require high technology to get.  No more gold, not enough oil to make plastic anymore, etc.  We need technology.

In the time I was gone today I seem to have sparked a rather brilliant and well-considered sidebar debate.  Well, it's pretty on topic.  I mean, being able to SEE your enemy is pretty crucial to avoiding losing your sentries and your settlements.


In theory, food would be exceedingly scarce in some places and not-so-much in others depending on agricultural abilities, toxicity and residual radiation in the soil, and many other factors that are far too difficult to assume.  20 years post-fall (aka apocalypse, I like 'fall' better) we can assume the survivors did so for a reason.  That means they could efficiently farm or hunt, gather or scavenge enough to get by.  These are traits they've passed on to their kids, who've now reached young adulthood.

So, we'll just assume that while there's hardly enough food to be 'fat and happy' (so to speak) they're not all starving to the point of lethargy every day.  I won't say food isn't scarce, and that some groups, tribes or settlements aren't starving to the very brink of death and probably resorting to cannibalism in some extremes (to try and say anything else would be a bit too optimistic).

Of course, we'll also assume that there are trade routes established in the more resilient communities.  Traders would probably have reverted mostly back to the old time covered wagon types, much like the caravans in Fallout.  After all, even if there IS fuel it'd probably be a might expensive to burn it up just moving back and forth from place to place- even more so if one group (like the caravan companies, also from fallout) were making rounds.  We'll assume that at least half make it at all times, because more would again be unrealistically optimistic and less would really mess with the balance of the game.

Problem is, more secure you are and better known, the more refugees you're going to have wanting to eat your food... So it's give and take.  I'd say, if you stop and think about it, there'd be a lot of people vying for the job of riding that darn bike. ;)  "We'll keep you fed enough to be nutritionally sound, but for x numbers a day you have to pedal" is a whole lot better chance of survival than "If you can bring in enough trade, bullets especially, you can have a can of beans."  Better long term job.  So I can definitely see the human powered electricity working- albeit in some places more than others.

Likewise, solar paneling would be effective under certain conditions.  I'd say they'd be rare, but feasibly still around in 20 years if the world ended today.  Most likely, there'd be backup generators and an extreme conservation of energy (especially where solar power is concerned).  Much like was said earlier in the convo: use the power when the alarm sounds, whatever that alarm may be.

Steam and water wheels are pretty brilliant as well, and fit with the setting.  I mean, Weird West (again a precursor to the post-apoc version) had some very strong inclinations toward steam-punkish if you wanted to go that route.  Didn't have to of course, but there was the option.  Steam is pretty viable, and I believe also produces heat so could possibly be dual purpose.  (Correct me if I'm wrong?)

I'm definitely liking the water wheel by the way.  The survivors would need a source of potable water.  The rivers wouldn't provide that, of course, but they'd provide water that could be boiled and filtered or otherwise purified so it stands to reason people would flock there anyway.  Waterwheels seem like a pretty logical next step for those that take up positions along rivers.

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Edit: Specifically to Hutt ('cause I forgot to add this):
Strength in numbers is pretty crucial.  The human race has in some form or another depended on it (not including outlying factors of course) since time immemorial.  That's why one of my main settlements has an all-hands defense strategy.  Strength in numbers, and when they only have five well trained guards they sometimes need more force to fight back.  Will it work?  Remains to be seen, really...  Theoretically those guards could and would train them, if they all live long enough to pass the knowledge on...  But in the end I am a slave to the dice.  (Okay, so that's a bit dramatic but yeah.)

If my PCs want to mess up the status quo they can.  If they anger enough neighboring settlements or run screaming to the walls for safety from an enemy (rather than taking a less direct route to lose them) then I very well might never get the answer.  That settlement will run the risk of being destroyed in mass battle.  Anything else, to me, runs the risk of my favoritism changing the outcome.  If I sway the results in any way they'll smell it, and slowly but surely the facade of a semi-living organic world will crumble.

ALSO: I'm in Missouri, actually.  Ironically, close enough that I'm a bit paranoid their crazy might spill over into my little personal bubble and crash with my own.  Two different forms of crazy colliding? That never ends well.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:56, Mon 18 Aug 2014.

Well, I would say that convoys between town would have to get through alright more often than not.  It's a matter of sheer economics.  Whomever throws together the caravan has to buy the wagons, pay the people, and buy the goods.  If each round trip only made it half the time, the payout would have to be enormous.  They, would probably have a 95% survival rate.  The 'harder' the area, the more guards they carry.  Anything less, the whole thing would become unprofitable (you can only charge so much before people won't (or can't) buy.

Human power, is a viable option, but it's at the bottom.  Steam would top the list, then water, then wind, finally human.  I left solar out, because it is it's own special case.  It's got a good deal of benefits, but enough drawbacks that you still need another system.

As for using newcomers as 'peddlers' it would usually be better to have them till fields and such.  Improve defenses.  Most towns I see accepting new resisdents if the brought a skill set to the town that it could use.

Funnily enough, our civilization still runs on steam power.  All those old science fiction books that I love from even as recent as the 70's talk about atomic power and how it could power engines here on earth and yadda, yadda, except still all power comes from steam.  Coal, atomic power, wind turbines, solar, pretty much all of it heats up water that drives a steam turbine.  "But what about those solar cells that directly convert sunlight into electricity?"  They're nice, but nowhere near as efficient as thermal solar, or "using sunlight to boil water to drive a steam turbine and the name just happens to sound like the more electrically direct real solar cells".

Very true.  Just boiling water and using that to power a turbine happens to be the most efficient way to convert thermal to electrical power.  Even going through the mechanical stage.

Wach ..... I think it was modern marvils idk but there is a show about modern boby traps

The kinda stuff they have been doing sence WWII has been nuts like wiring dead bodies so some one tries to take the helmet of the dead solder home as a suvinier it blows up. 0.0. Who thinks to do that to the bodies of there own guys before falling back

Or riging just a tin can in the road with a small bomb kick it or run over it and bomb

Then they showed one they were teaching US troops to use, and it was putting a live grenade in a glass cup and balancing it on a door handle

I'll have to watch that one.

Other than "he", you are correct.  :-)

It's probably a peeve of mine that most people don't realize that, in most circumstances, it's more efficient to directly burn food as fuel than to consume it and try to convert that food into electricity/stored energy by use of human-power.  Human beings are incredibly inefficient energy consumer-producers.  Anyway... got this soapbox now, only slightly used.  Anyone else want it?
This message was last edited by the user at 16:21, Mon 18 Aug 2014.

In reply to cruinne (msg # 97):

Nah, I've got my own soap box, it goes everywhere with me!  LOL

Sorry about the "he", it was meant in the gender non-specific form.  'She/he' is just too cumbersome to use conversationally and 'he/she' has negative connotations I prefer to shay far away from and all the made up non specific one's aren't well enough known.

As for burning the food compared to bodily converting it, you are correct.  To a point.  The human body doesn't convert energy all that well.  The only fault would really be the fact that a lot of our food wouldn't burn that well, lol.

In reply to pfarland (msg # 98):

I dunno, you'd be surprised what foods I can manage to burn.  :(

LoL.  Yeah, my kitchen would tend to disagree.  Burnt icecubes, coming up!  Would you like a side of blackened watermelon?  (But all kidding aside, I'd urge a look into epicene "they". http://www.editorscanberra.org/a-singular-use-of-they/ )


Anyway.  I'm enjoying the booby-trap conversations.  Next time I run a game, I'll have so, so many things to try.

Using 'they' in reference to a singular subject has only served to confuse the issue in my experience.  Most people don't get it.

And I always throw this out there.  If anyone wants to have me help them with their game, character, setting, or whatnot; I'm always willing to help.  While I'm hesitant to call myself an expert, I've very knowledgeable in this kind of stuff and military matters.  Also police as well.  If anyone has any questions that they don't want 'out there' that PC's might see, feel free to ask.

I'll stick with my (s)he.  Of course, that does get awkward these days because so many places use emoticons and sometimes have an (s).

Those 'pack explosives into something unexpected' are also known as improvised explosive devices.  Be careful looking those up or someone might end up looking you up in return. ;)  The most disturbing one I ever saw in person was inside a dead donkey.  Fortunately it didn't go off.  I think that the disgusting and shocking aspects would've been more traumatic, to me personally, than the explosion itself.  (Depending on whether or not the blast hit me I suppose.)  Pomegranates also tried to float a few explosives down the canal water.  It didn't work very efficiently so they quit, but one or two of them washed up into view so we figured out what they were up to.

I was, by force, subjected to watch Antique Roadshow last night.  Don't ask.  It was torture of the worst degree.  But I saw a bag of coins and randomly had an idea I needed to share: in the case of explosions, coins would be ready-made shrap*.  :)  You want to mine your settlement so those evil raiders don't get in?  Use coins.  Small, solid, and pretty sharp when flying through the air.  Likewise, filling a shotgun shell full of nickels will blow the lock off of a door about 70% of the time(don't ask how I know)so they'd make for good reloading when buckshot is scarce. Since they only have novelty value in a world based on barter, there's another use for them right there.

Edit: *Shrapnel
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 04:12, Tue 19 Aug 2014.

The quicker and cleaner you kill an animal, the better it'll taste.  Otherwise, the more the animal was scared, kicked, and otherwise exerted itself, the more acidic the meat will be.  Plus it'll rot faster (and I'm not making this up).  For the best taste, you really want your meat to die peacefully and quickly, and you want your meat to be well rested for a good day before it's killed.

I don't know, but I presume it's the same for humans as for other animals.

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 103):

this is Partly why hunters go for a kill shot from surprise....kill it clean and fast, with as little time to thrash about and get worked up as possible...but if yer starving you take any kill ya can...a tasty meal is a secondary concern compared to good old fashion starvation.... Goes for cannibals as well.

---

Here's a good page for solar cookers I found a while back while looking at caping gear...it's a good example of how something very effective can e made out of simple/salvaged materials.

http://www.solarcooker-at-cant...ingasolarcooker.html

think one of the better defenses is being hard to find....

but that's hard to pull off and have a place you can survive out of

I'll confirm on the hunting bit too.  And I don't see any reason why it would be different for humans as well.  Same basic biological processes.

And yes, being hard to find/inaccessible is a defensive measure in and of itself.  The flip side to that coin (like most defensive measures), is it can work against you.

You have to take extra precautions going to and from, so you aren't seen or tracked, plus there is the likelihood that also means you will have limited escape routes.  I'm not saying that it isn't valid, but that it could be used against you.

<tt> Wait... I thought fear added flavor to the meat. :O  I've been doing it all wrong.


Edit: Yeah, for some reason all of my ascii diagrams turned into graphs.  Disregard all of that message.  I did have a layout of a wall idea, but it didn't work.  If anybody's interested just shoot me a PM and I'll make some not-so-pretty paintbrush art to show you what I'm thinking. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 16:56, Wed 20 Aug 2014.

Really with any of the junk type walls, the best thing would be to use the junk as a reinforcement for other methods.  Concrete, mortar, or even adobe.

The basic re-envisioning was to have paired vertical support beams every six feet or so, and a diagonal support beam lodged between them.  That way the wall would go something like:

|\|/|\|/|\|

And all the junk and rubble would really just be filler.

The Hoss USMC FTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...t=PLBA2D9F8DFAD05563

Boom! There it is! Can't go wrong with battlefield proven methods from the good ol' US Marines.

Also, for an exterior perimeter wall, can't go wrong with standard chainlink fencing that has old hardwood utility poles lashed tightly all 'round the outside. It provides a visual barrier, it's not so easy to climb, even provides a little ballistic protection.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:09, Thu 21 Aug 2014.

Good stuff, in general.  More focused to modern defenses against another military.  Not saying it isn't worthwhile.  Heck, I've advocated the ditch from the get go.  Not using tanks to make it, but then again they probably wouldn't have tanks.  The fence is good, but I'd want more.  Fences are better than nothing, but a wall is better.

In reply to pfarland (msg # 111):

It is a wall. Once you drive a few feet of the hydro pole into the dirt, then wire it to the fence, it ain't goin' nowhere. For additional stability, reinforce it on the opposite side with hard packed earthwork. It's basically a makeshift palisade. AThey used walls almost exactly like it forn thousands of years, and they worked.

The rest of the sapper stuff is specialized, yes, but far far more useful in a world where you might run into vehicles. The Tank Berm (the ditch is only one part of the equation) is designed to basically expose the underside of a vehicle so that it can be shot at whilst the occupants of the vehicle are prevented from shooting back.

The log obstacles will stop pretty much any vehicle that's not heavily armored in it's tracks. Slamming into that is going to give the crew whiplash at the very least.

It's a reinforced fence.  You build up the rear and turn it into a palisade, that's a wall.  I'm all for that.  Double layered chain link, give it a good 16-20 foot, that's what I'm talking about.  And really the phone poles are a good idea, using them as the basis of a palisade.

The berm is ok.  Use the ditch then a wall the purpose for the berm is negated.  Your defenses are too high to really hit the bottom.  And yeah, logs will stop a vehicle.  If you have enough of them, you put extra out before the ditch at a 45 degree angle.