Continuing the theme of RPG introductions, could you tell me a little about WH40K games: Dark Heresy, Black Crusade etc.?

I know the gist: there's human space empire, immortal emperor, Chaos gods etc. What I'd like to know is:

1. Are these games serious? The general ideas seem nicely grim, but then I look closer at them and I see chainsaw swords and similar over-the-top silliness...

2. Is there anything in-depth about these games, or are their mostly action games about killing monsters?

3. Are these games connected in any way? Do I need, say, Dark Heresy to understand and play Black Crusade?

I've been playing Dark Heresy since the first supplement came out, Rogue Trader since it came out, and Only War since beta. Deathwatch and Black Crusade I've dabbled in a bit but I know those first three the best.

1. You can run very silly games in the 40K universe (it ends up being a pretty grim kind of humor) but in general the games are pretty serious. Chainswords, the "Calixian Infantryman's Portable Communications Transcription Device" (essentially, a pen), and the well-known phrase "Drive me closer; I want to hit them with my sword!" are examples of the Imperium's often backwards way of thinking. Apparently, after having a golden age of technology, we end up losing a lot of our information on that kind of stuff, so what remains is revered simply for its ancientness (even if it's not as effective). In my opinion, the silliness you point out works well to balance out the grim-dark setting of 40K.

2. Each of the games can be run as action-packed "dungeon" crawls, but the real meat of each system happens when action is story driven. Dark Heresy is focused on investigators rooting out heresy, so action results when the heretics try to fight back. Rogue Trader and Black Crusade are driven by personal ambitions, whether those be empire building or subverting the false emperor. And Deathwatch and Only War are military campaign driven, where action follows the ebb and flow of a war.

3. Short answer to the second part of your question is "no, you don't need one to understand/play/enjoy the others." However, each of the games are connected in that they share very similar systems (1d100 based, lots of matching skills/talents, often comparable character levels) and they share the 40K setting. Furthermore, the "primary location" of each system (the sector where each system takes place if you don't want to make up your own) is connected to the others. The Calixis Sector (DH) borders the Koronus Expanse (RT). Between the two is a warp gate to the Jericho Reach (DW) and a warp storm within which reside the Screaming Vortex (BC). Lastly, Only War takes place on the "northern" fringe of the Calixis Sector.

Hope this helps. I'd love to answer any more questions.

Worth pointing out there's some really neat fiction backstory too

First additional question: didn't this universe use to be WH *30* K? Or does my memory fail me?

Second question: are the systems for these games complicated? These days, I prefer simple games, like White Wolf's games, or GURPS (which has scary character creation, but is simple at its core).

Third question: is there a lot of silliness? When I look at these games, I often see cartoony art. Then, I see chainsaws. And then, I see bulky power armour... and my suspension of disbelief fails...

Let me put it this way: I like White Wolf, as well as Call of Cthulhu. I don't like DnD. Are WH40K games for me, then?

In reply to Varsovian (msg # 4):

3. Depends on what you call silly and where on the continuum your GM plays. I like the 40K universe and I prefer WoD over DnD

Hm, I see...

Another question: what kind of enemies are there in these games? I know that there's the human empire and the heretics. Are there alien races? I seem to remember something about orcs and "genestealers"...

I'm not knowledgeable in the RPG incarnations of 40K, but I have a lot of general knowledge on the setting.  The chainsword isn't silly if you consider the need to chew through often very thick armor plating on foes.  Aside from heavily armored assault troops, humans rarely want to be in melee with things as pretty much everything in the universe is either stronger, more skilled, or both.

---

Warhammer 40k in general, is the very definition of GrimDark.  Humans are ruled by their undead god-emperor that only clings to life through the repeated sacrifice of countless psionic humans.  Travel is deadly and demons lurk everywhere, just waiting to spring forth and devour the minds of the unwary (and then use their shells to murder everyone they can).  Treason and heresy lurk behind every corner as men fall prey to the seduction of demonic forces or become genetically subverted by the tyranid swarm.  External threats are even more numerous.

---

So... I can say that the flavor is very good and the setting very serious and rich.  I can't really speak to the RPGs as I've not played them (and honestly, the setting is so dark I don't know that I care to).

1. If it was, it was before I got into it (seven-ish years ago) - it's always been 40K to me. As was mentioned above, it has a neat fiction backstory that goes back to our present day here in 2014 and even before that.

2. Most people have accused the 40K RPGs of having too many things to remember (too many skills to train, too many talents, too many different actions in combat, etc.), but the core systems are fairly simple. Every test is a 1d100 roll trying to get below a characteristic plus or minus a bonus/penalty. Combat is always a Full Action worth of actions (one Full or two Halfs) and a Reaction if necessary. And the rules that are specific to each system (starship combat in RT, horde mechanics in DW, etc.) are meant to be more narrative than number-crunchy.

3. Having never played any of those other three systems, someone else will have to answer this one. I will reiterate, however, that chainswords, bulky power armour, power discs, lightning gauntlets, and long-named pens make perfect sense within the 40K universe. But if your suspension of disbelief fails because of some artist's rendition of something in the setting, then perhaps you should skip these RPGs.

4. Each game has their "signature enemy," if you will, but you can fight any enemies you want. Common opponents include heretics, daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orcs, Tyranids (including genestealers), Tau, Kroot, several other sentient races, and many other dangers in the galaxy. As a GM I would choose enemies for my players based on their power level. Beginning DH characters could take on a few cultists but would fall easily to even a single Eldar. On the other hand, late-game DW characters mow through cultists like tissue paper but are challenged by Tyrant Lords and Daemon Princes.

Thanks. Let's talk about the goals / plots of these games...

As I understand, DH is about hunting heretics. I can picture that... What exactly is BC about, aside from being an evil cultist? And what are RT and DW about?

In Dark Heresy, you work for a group called the Inquisition. The Inquisition is divided up into three sectionsm called Ordos, each of whicih deals with different "threats" to the Imperium.

Ordo Malleus deals with Chaos stuff - Daemons and cultists and all that. The four Chaos Gods are basically the embodiments of certain emotions and stuff. Khorne is all about war and blood ("Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!"), and all his daemons tend to be red and covered in spikes and other pointy bits. All Khorne cares about is that you shed as much blood as possible, regardless of whose it is (even your own). Then there's Nurgle, who's all about disease and decay and stuff. His followers and daemons tend to resemble bulging creatures with all pus and boils and icky stuff like that. Slaanesh is all about experiencing extremes of pain/pleasure, and his/her daemons (there tend to be a lot of hermaphroditic creatures/followers because...then you've got more...erm, parts...to do stuff with) tend to have tentacles and stuff, and some resemble a sort of daemonic temptress/seductress creature, and stuff like that. Finally there is Tzeentch, the Lord of Change, who'se all about mutations and stuff like that. His daemons come in all shapes and sizes but I know of one which looks like a giant vulture...thingy.
Anyway, all these things are evil and foul and they must be burned and purged from the world with fire and stuff!

Ordo Xenos deals with aliens, because they're not human and not part of the Imperium and so they are bad and evil and must be purged from existence with fire and stuff. Some alien species include Orks (with a K, not a C), who are all about "More dakka!" and "More choppy!" and going "WAAAAGGGHH". There are Tau, who are erm, I think they're blue or something...their principle is all about "For the greater good" I think, but I don't know much about them. There are Tyranids, which are all about getting their genes onto a planet so they can breed super-fast and take it over with their massive numbers, then go off and do the same to another planet. There are Necrons, which I think are basically robot-thingys whose aim is to destroy all life everywhere. And a bunch of other stuff, I think.

Ordo Hereticus deals with heretics, and this is whom you work for in Dark Heresy. You deal with any heretical tuff that doesn't fit into the areas covered by the other two Ordos.

Each of the three has its own "elite" section. Ordo Malleus has the Grey Knights, all of whom are Psykers (the 40k version of a spellcaster, they all use psychic powers to do their stuff which involves accessing the Warp in order to do it...oh yeah, the Warp is where Chaos resides so there is a chance you might accidentally bring a Daemon or something through instead). Ordo Xenos has Deathwatch, all of whom are Space Marines, the best of the best pulled from various chapters and given a special Deathwatch badge, basically - these are whom you play as in the Deathwatch game. Finally, Ordo Hereticus has the Adepta Sororitas, aka the Sisters of Battle. All female, all very religious. Mind you, if you're not a total religious nut in Dark Heresy (the God Emperor of Mankind being your god...unless you're a Tech Priest in which case it's the Omnissiah), you're probably gonna get called a heretic and purged with fire and stuff ;).

So that's Dark Heresy. In Rogue Trader you play...well, a Rogue Trader (like a freelance ship captain) and crew with your own ship. The various charcacter "classes" in Rogue Trader resemble some of those from Dark Heresy (there is a tech-based one, a psychic-powered one, a shooty-one, and so on). I've not played much of this one so I don't know much about it.

In Black Crusade you play basically the kind of people the Inquisition will be after - Chaos worshippers, doing stuff which will earn you favour with the Chaos Gods (or just one of them, if you want more specific er...benefits). You have a high chance of mutating beyond all recognition (but this is GOOD because it means your god favours you!) and/or going completely insane and just getting turned into a gribbly monster (this is...less good).

All fun :D.

Thanks :)

Could you tell me more about heretics? What do heretics do, exactly? When I first read about them, I thought heretics worship Chaos...

You can work for any of the three Ordos, or any of the other minors ones, or none of them.

Concerning "heretics," the most broad and basic definition is anyone who doesn't agree with/follow the Imperium. Since it's a mixed religio-political system, crime and heresy are often interchangeable. More specifically, there are different kinds of heretics, but usually fall under the umbrellas of Chaos heretics (those who worship one of the Chaos Gods or one of their agents) and Xenos heretics (those who side with xenos and try to help them accomplish their goals). These two categories are by far the most common and plentiful, but there are others (secessionists would probably be called heretics, as would anyone who denies the Emperor as a god).

Concerning Black Crusade, the official end goal is to start a new Black Crusade - a massive army of anti-Imperialists with the express intent of storming Terra and bringing death to the False Emperor. Of course as agents of Chaos you can choose to ignore this goal completely and serve your own ends, or aim for a small target (bringing Chaos to an Imperial sector, like Calixis for example).

In reply to Varsovian (msg # 1):

40K is one of those settings that is so 'grimdark' it becomes comedic. Like all the skulls on everything and the goofy oversized weapons. And I always get a laugh when races are labeled 'Dark.'

A question about Black Crusade: if I play a Chaos worshipper, do I have do to evil stuff? Is it a game when I have to play a mass murderer, or someone like that?

Also, I keep reading that the Empire of Man is bad place. Why is that so?

To worship Chaos you would have to do something that pleases either all of Chaos (something detrimental to the False Emperor) or something that pleases a specific god. Mass murder is one option; Khorne would certainly enjoy that. But planning and executing plots that cripple the tithe from an Imperial world would please Tzeentch. Or taking over a pleasure world and getting everyone addicted to one form of passion or another would please Slaanesh. So evil yes, but not necessarily mass murder.

The Imperium is a difficult place to live if you're not the 0.01% born into wealth or power. The reigning form of morality is utilitarianism, so the needs of the many (the survival of the Imperium) outweigh the needs of the few (the standard of living on individual worlds). So life itself is hard. And then there are daemons who eat your souls and xenos who wear your flesh. That makes it a bad place to live. The middle ages' superstitions, short life spans, life of labor, and feudal and religious hierarchy is probably the most readily understandable example.

I see. And, if I understand correctly, there's some war going on?

BTW. I looked up WH40K on Wikipedia and the page describes OW, DW and BC as martial-oriented. Is it accurate?

(I'm reading this question as continuing from the previous line of Black Crusade questions; if this is wrong, let me know.) There is a constant war between Chaos and the God-Emperor all across the universe, and this war is fought between daemons/heretics/Chaos Space Marines and the various forces of the Imperium (usually, Grey Knights, the Inquisition, and Space Marines). Occasionally an agent of Chaos becomes infamous enough to bring together a Black Crusade, a more directed large scale force.

That is definitely accurate for Only War and Deathwatch; both of those systems follow squads of soldiers through a military campaign. There can be some intrigue, some mystery, some investigation, some diplomacy, but the characters are built primarily for combat. On the other hand, certain archetypes (read "classes") in Black Crusade are combat-oriented, but others are social characters, tech characters, psychic characters, etc. It has combat just like DH and RT, but it's not the primary theme like DW and OW.

Just to get a better image: is that Empire-Chaos war very intense? Are these occassional skirmishes, or full-scare galactic war constantly going on on multiple planets? Is it a ground war, or are space fleets involved?

Coming back to Black Crusade - so, this game is... very dark, right? Because you either have to kill innocents, or - say - spread disease or perverse sex? There's no way to play a sympathetic (or even good) follower of Chaos?

In reply to Varsovian (msg # 18):

Full scale galactic war that has lasted ten thousand years

"In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war."

Really, no-one is a "good guy". The Imperium basically say "worship the God Emperor otherwise some nice people from the Inquisition will be along with flamers and pointy objects to show you why your method of thinking is wrong". If you're a Tech Priest, you worship the Omnissiah, not the same thing as the God-Emperor (who, incidentally, is basically a corpse rigged up to a machine so the remnants of the uber psychic power he had while he was alive continue to power the heart of the Imperium) and the heart of your people's stuff is on Mars rather than Holy Terra (as they call Earth int his setting). But the Adeptus Mechanicus (Tech Priests) provide all the tech the Imperium needs, so...it's okay, they don't count as heretics and the Imperium totally wouldn't fall apart without their tech or anything, honest, no, they're not being hypocritical or anything like that. Nope. Not at all. Here, come look at this power sword I'm totally not gonna decapitate you with for even thinking that there's something wrong with the way the Imperium is run.

The Imperium is basically at war with everyone. The Chaos gods want to destroy/mutate/infect everything so they and their spawn and followers need to be destroyed. The xenos (that is, every species that isn't a daemon or a human) must be destroyed because they're xenos (rehardless of whether they're actively trying to destroy the Imperium in return...though most/all of them are anyway). Mutants must be destroyed 'cause they're mutants, therefore obviously touched by Chaos and therefore a Bad Thing. Humans who don't worship the God Emperor of Mankind and aren't part of the Adeptus Mechanicus must be destroyed because they're obviously heretics so have no place in the Imperium.

Black Crusade...it depends on which Chaos God you choose to follow - you can choose not to specifically align yourself with any of the four but you don't get any many benefits as if you focus on one...though note that each of the Four has one they get on well with, one they're not fussed about, and one they can't stand - Khorne is good with Nurgle but HATES Tzeentch, because omg magic diediedie. In theory you could be a "nice" person by your own definition (in any of the games, not just in BC), but just be aware that "nice" in that setting doesn't really come anywhere close to "nice" as we know it IRL. It's the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, and, as the quote says, there is only war ;).

As Jhaelan says, it's a galaxy-spanning long-lasting war. But we're both using war here not as armies fighting armies (though that certainly happens in some cases - see the Eye of Terror) but rather like the US is at war with terrorists or Muslims and Christians fight in some countries. It's not a definitive war with two clear sides and individual battles but rather a war of ideologies that fights in the minds of citizens as well as on the battlefield.

I'm not sure what a sympathetic or good follower of Chaos would be. As to how evil you have to be, you have to be against the Imperium. But the Imperium is often an evil organization in and of itself. So are you really evil for fighting evil? It's an interesting question. In general, though, I would only play Black Crusade with mature roleplayers (where "mature" describes their maturity level, not their age) because of the complicated themes, not to mention their adult nature.

Here is a link to the Support page of Black Crusade on FFG's website. Under Official Adventures you can download "Broken Chains" for a prewritten mission. You might read through that to get a feel for some of the things you would do as an agent of Chaos.

In reply to knightriefel (msg # 21):

To expand on the "mature" players angle, just because you're following Khorne doesn't mean you're mindlessly slaughtering people. The canon has some lovely examples of subtle, long-term, intricately woven plots where, for example, the point is to ensure that an Imperial Guard regiment ends up killing a bunch of folks. Double points! Blood for the Blood God!, plus the start of potentially corrupting your foe

Oh, incidentally, there is a really useful wiki website called the Lexicanum which seems to have pretty much anything you could ever want to know about the fluff for Warhammer 40k (and Warhammer Fantasy as well, I think). Not sure how much info it has on the specific RPGs but you canfind out about the various people/factions/organisations/species/planets etc there.

Okay, I'll look it up :)

Yet another question, if you don't mind: what is the tech level of this universe? I know that the military factions seem to have sci-fi gear, but what about ordinary people?

Well, originally, tech advanced beyond how it is nowadays, to be all futuristic and stuff. Ships would travel through the Warp in order to get between the stars and stuff, and it was all very advanced.

Then Chaos found out. Chaos, which lived in the Warp. I think there were loads of Warp storms or something, and basically this meant the Warp was out of bounds, which meant no interstellar travel, which meant star systems were all cut off from each other. For ages.

Then the Emperor came along (well, apparently he's been around since ancient times, like the ancient history of Earth...maybe even before then, I'm not sure) and built this big beacon thingy called...erm, the Astronomicon, I think. This was basically a psychic beacon so bright it shone through the Warp, and could be used as a point of navigation, enabling interstellar travel again.

Meanwhile, at some point (no idea when in relation to all the above), there were problems with AI in the tech. As in, it developing sentience and trying to take over/kill people, or whatever. Something like that. So, AI became illegal. No more AI - to the Adeptus Mechanicus, if you use anything resembling AI in your machinery you are a Heretek ("heretical tech", I presume it comes from). Therefore any kind of "computer processor" is in fact a human brain with all the thinky-feely bits scooped out, and stuck inside the machine to act as...well, the processor. You get humanoid "robots" called servitors and flying skulls called servo skulls which have human brains in but basically function as robots - they have no true intelligence or personality of their own any more and purely operate as a programmed "machine".

Tech in general is pretty low-tech for what it is. Because of the whole Warp Storm thing, tech advancement ground to a halt and all the knowledge of advanced stuff became lost. That stuff is "ancient" now, and there still exist, very rarely and highly treasured if they can be found, blueprints (which have a special name which I can't remember right now, I think it has three initials though) for this ancient tech. Most of the known ones are in the possession of the Adeptus Astartes (Space Marines), hence why they tend to have more flashy armour and weapons and decent-looking gear compared to the rubbishy stuff everyone else seems to have. So while there is interstellar space travel and (crappy) laser guns and stuff like that, it's not all shiny and perfect. It's gritty and dirty and old and doesn't always work right.

Also, to operate any tech which requires much beyond the pushing of a button or pulling of a trigger, it's blasphemous to do so unless you're a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who must engage in a load of holy rituals and ceremonies and stuff involving holy (mostly Latin-based, I believe) chanting and spreading of incense and all that kind of stuff, because they believe (or they want other people to believe, I'm not entirely sure) that technological things are inhabited by machine spirits, which must be appeased. So you're not allowed to pull the lever and then turn the wheel and press the "On" switch - you have to wait for a holy priest of the Adeptus Mechanicus to come along and complete the holy ritual of Activating the Holy Technological Machine Thingy...or whatever ;).

Heh. That sounds like Dune... taken to the total extreme :)

Oh, a question: I looked at FFG's website and it looks like there'a a 2nd edition of Dark Heresy coming up?

Does anyone know if it's going to be compatible with the 1st edition and the other games?

Apologies for taking so long to reply.

Yep, 2nd Edition is coming out soon. Many speculate that it will be released at GenCon (this week), so a PDF copy of the rules is still a ways away, but the beta is out and there won't be many changes between that and the official copy.

Concerning compatibility, certainly all of the fluff is compatible. By that I mean that you could run a DH1 game in the new sector (can't remember the name) or a DH2 game in the Calixis Sector, using the stories/plots/characters/events from each location. In general, the core mechanics (1d100 below target number, rules for combat, etc.) are very similar. DH2 has a smaller skill list and more talents I think, but characters of equivalent XP from each system should be pretty equal on power level. If you're going to run or play Dark Heresy, I suggest waiting until DH2 comes out (or picking up the beta) because A) it should be simpler to learn and B) it's the new standard - technically all of the old material is obsolete now.

since i have a lot of TL;DR in this thread i'm posting this and it may just be a ton of repeating but i consider myself quite knowledgeable in this:




No, not that i know of. But there is an extensive lore and a few games about 30k, which was the great war between chaos siding primarchs (super beings meant to lead legions of space marines) whom are led by the God-Emperor's favored son Horus. i can go into a lot more detail on this if you want. But essentially they had a very intricate plan to hold up all the loyal space marine legions or destroy them, so they had a straight shot to earth where in the end the Emperor beamed onto Horus's flagship for a duel, but couldn't bring himself to kill his favorite son...horus didn't have such objections and mortally wounded the emperor, and with that the emperor killed horus.



 


I'd say so, there are lots of niggling little rules and tons of skills with different costs to buy depending on multiple factors




Eh, what art in question? but no, it's a super gridmark world where no "good guy" exists. there are humans, xenophobic and closed minded people who worship the god emperor, xenos who for a variety of reasons are just not nice, and chaos, the definition of, well, chaos which there are 4 chaos gods which i can also go into more in depth if you want, but basically they are: Tzeentch: The god of change, and sorcery he is mystical and always seems to have things "go as planned", Nurgle, god of decay and disease, Slannesh, god of excess, and Khorne the god of war and battle

In reply to knightriefel (msg # 28):

Regarding the 2nd edition of DH: so, all of the sourcebooks that had been published so far will be obsolete, when the new edition comes out? There won't be any point in buying them?

There's certainly no need to buy them; the biggest thing they would add is a lot of fluff information (about the Inquisition, the Imperium, etc., most of which you can get online at sites like Lexicanum) and the fully fleshed out Calixis Sector to play in (as opposed to the Askellon Sector which will be broadly laid out in the new rulebook and then fleshed out in supplements). But all of the character creation and advancement rules, the skill and talents lists, the psychic system, and combat will be either be changed completely or adjusted enough that the mechanics from the old system won't work in the 2nd Edition.

Okay, thanks :)

Now, here's a strange question for all you WH40K players: are you able to find any side to identify with in this universe?

I mean... the Empire seems pretty bad. Most people there live pretty awful lives... so, is it really worth saving? And saving it seems to be the motivation for people in DH, OW and DW. Meanwhile, the motivation for the protagonists of BC is serving the Chaos Gods... which are even worse...

Is there anything nice in this universe? Or something in any of the sides that would make it relatable?

In reply to Varsovian (msg # 32):

On a macro-scale everything is truly broken. On a personal scale there are still all the usual human needs, wants, final stands, foibles and moments of glory. At it's heart the setting is inherently about the nature of our humanity (check out their writers guidelines, for examples). You relate to the small human moments where you might make a difference, not the unending futility and terror of war and extinction

In reply to Jhaelan (msg # 33):

what he said, basically there are some really "nice" things going down on a personal level.


as for empire wise, maybe MAYBE, the Tau Empire, but they're essentially "either live under our philosophy of 'The Greater Good' or die" which is admittedly better than "be a non mutant/xenos/heretic filth or die" or "WE GITS IS DA BESTEST AND DA BADDEST" but that's simply because they're ignorant of most of the universe. they don't believe people when they talk about "chaos gods" or "daemons"


Also for the record i like the Orks the best.

Hm. Tell me more. :) How do you make a difference, when the Empire you serve is so awful? Or when your goal (as in DH) is to kill everyone who thinks differently?

And I really can't see how do you make a difference in BC :)

You make a difference by gaining loads of Chaotic powers and setting forth to slaughter/mutate/infect/do really dodgy things to as many people as possible ;).

Basically, the Warhammer 40k setting is a Crapsack Universe - no-one is particularly "nice" by our standards. You just have some people who are probably a bit less likely to shoot you in the face than others ;).

Unless you are talking on the personal level, you generally can't make the world a better place. Mostly you can just try to stop the world from becoming worse.

Sure, the imperial peons might have it bad, but people still survive, live and love under that system. They'll probably appreciate it, if you stop the chaos cultists which intend to make the planet into a literal hell world.

On the personal level you might be able to do more. And the "personal" level might theoretically be quite expansive.

The Gaunt's Ghosts novels is about Gaunt, who becomes the commander of a conscripted light infantry regiment from the world of Tanith. When Tanith is threatened by a superior chaos force, he decides to withdraw the regiment, rather than lose them to a doomed fight. So he is now in charge of the only survivors of that planet. While he does use them in their intended roles as soldiers, he is also good commander, who doesn't want to get them killed needlessly. So you have a struggle between him trying to preserve the regiment, and higher commanders who wants to just feed them into various meatgrinder missions.

So you can try to make sure that a squad, ship's company, or even planet survive, or maybe even thrive, in this dark and cruel universe. The more you try to protect, the more forces will be arrayed against you, both actively and passively, but you can try. However, the universe is grimdark. It is in the setting's very DNA that things don't get better. If you actually manage to do some serious, permanent good, and it isn't just the GM giving it to you, then you deserve a medal of some kind.

In order to let you know how the setting is basically sets of grey here is a summary of the rules from the Imperial Infrantryman's uplifting primer. (A real world mock up of the Impreal guardsman's orientation handbook)

Disrespect towards an officer
punishment - You are shot

Failure to salute an officer
punishment - You are shot

Striking an officer
punishment - You are shot


Failure to carry out an order
punishment - You are shot

Disobeying an order
punishment - You are shot

Ill treatment or neglect of Equipment
punishment - You are shot

Disrespectfull speach against the emperor
Punishment flogged then shot

Mutiny
punishment - You are shot

Inebriated
punishment - You are shot

Cowardace
punishment - You are shot

The list continues for a long time. Basically the moment you join the military you loose your freedom. And as payment you get to serve in the great war.

And it is quite likely that you are a conscript, rather than a volunteer.

In reply to PushBarToOpen (msg # 38):

Ah that's another thing, in the primer it shows the imperium will basically tell you outright lies, they say orks are only base intelligent creatures with nothing better than ramshackle zipguns, or that genesteeler's claws are dull, or that eldar weaponry is antiquated and fragile.

It's a bit like classic WoD, where you are basically on the cusp of "The End" and you are there to prolong it enough for your side to pull a rabbit out of it's hat.

The only exception seems to be the Tau. They seem to be the "Empire on the rise", rather than "in Decline" or "Hoping to sack Rome".

Tau are communist fascists ruled by the Elder Gods. Or something.

Roll Perils of the Warp.

It is all from the human perspective.

Lets compare notes.

You have the Eldar, who will do anything and sacrifice anyone else to save even one of their species. They are dying but they will not go down without a fight. That means that will make sure billions of humans die so that a couple hundred of them might live. They also have cousins who are Dark Eldar. They are exactly the same except for one differance. While the Eldar try to fight the Chaos, Dark Eldar serve them. Dark Eldar harvest souls to offer to Slaanesh so they can live for another day.

You have the Orks. Who are genetically engineered warriors. They will stop at nothing to fight. They will fight themselves, Imperium or anyone else. They will travel across the starts to that they can get a good fight. Problem, their reproductive system are spores. They constantly release spores especially when they bleed. These spores becomes mushrooms, these mushrooms becomes Orks. And once enough Orks are born they can make weapons and armies etc. They will kill anything and everything because its fun.

Next you have Necrons. Who are basicly robots in a sense. Their objective is to erradicate all life from the galaxy so they can win their war against the Chaos Gods.

Than you have Tyranids. Starship Troopers + Alien equals these guys. They are known as the "Great Devourer" because they consume any organic material they come across. Vegetation, animals, people, they even comsume the air. Not a pleasent concept and not pleasent to have around. They are practically unstoppable, and they will one day eat everything, if the Orks don't beat them.

Than you have Chaos. You have four gods. Khorne who is the god of slaughter, blood, combat also the god of honor and bravery. Nurgle is the god of decay, sicness, pestillence also the god of acceptance and medicine. Slaanesh is the god os lust, perversion and also the god of love. Tzeentch is the god of change and mutation also basicly the god of hope. They gain power from any and all emotions and twist them around to their own gain. Also because of this, in the end things tend to die.

Finally you have the Tau. They have great economy, infrastructure and a stable government. They comperatively treat everyone nicely, they educate them, take care of their problems etc. Basicly they are space communists. For the greater good and all that. Problem is, there are quite evident signs of mindcontrol or brain washing involved.

Compared to them you have the Imperium. Its machinations are influenced by these aforementioned powers and designed to fight them or their influence. Desperate though it may be they are at least trying their best.

There are also a whole lot more aliens involved but their are either too few in number or very limited to a certain place that they get no mention here; but they are no different, they will kill or mess things up.

Basicly, if you somehow stop the influence of these enemies, or halt their advance, it is considered a good thing. Even though you had to erradicate an entire planet to do so. Things are messed up.

As for your BC question. As I stated above, Chaos Gods might sound and seem like evil entities but their domains also cover good things. You can be the most brave and honorable servant of Khorne, or the most dutiful and life saving servant of Nurgle, or someone who gives hope to untold billions serving Tzeentch. You don't have to be a killing machine. It's just that, you actions kind of always go around and become bad. You give hope to people, they start to believe it, and billions die and as a reward you end up as an unrecognizeable but ultimately powerful blob. You stem the tide against dissease and sickness, save millions, but the methods you use cause a new and much improved dissease that kills billions and as a reward you end up as a bloated living dissease bomb. You can be the most honorable and brave fighter of all, but as you win more and more fights you will become more and more affected by rage until one day you will kill anything on sight.

Differance being, the way you get there. You can choose not to give in to temptation, try your best to not fall trap to the easy ways and you can avoid corruption and damnation. It is far easier to give into temptation and corruption though as in Black Crusade how influenced you are by the chaos gods determines extra effects. The more effected you are the powerful they become.

Edit:

Addendum:

Yes, you read that right. The god of hope is an evil manipulative thing. The rest of it becomes kind of moot after that.
This message was last edited by the user at 07:10, Tue 19 Aug 2014.

for the record Nurgle's life giving involves microbes that feed off necrotic flesh and such, not actually curing people. Though he does hand out eternal life like candy, you just have to be infected and accept him.

Yeah, from what I recall, if you're one of Papa Nurgle's "children", you basically get infected with any variety of highly-infectious diseases but don't really suffer yourself - you go all blobby and pussy and stuff but aren't actively suffering. Then you get to walk among non-infected folk, generally introducing yourself and in the process passing on as much of Nurgle's gift as you can ;).

In the one (rather short-lived) tabletop game of Black Crusade I played, I was a Heretek who ended up taking enough body-related stuff to become a Nurgle follower, and when I got enough Corruption to roll on the Gift of the Gods table, I managed to score Corpulent Immensity (I think it was called), which made me much bigger and stronger (and blobbier...with all my mechadendrites and stuff still attached and fully functional). My Size was Huge, bigger than the two Chaos Marines we had in the group and more on par with a small tank...but without all the guns and stuff since I was focusing more on the utility mechadendrites. Also had Mechanicus Assimiliation (immune to cold, don't breathe, can survive in a vacuum, an extra Armour point, Toughness score counts toward Armour when protecting against fire damage, and one or two other things, I think). Unfortunately the game fizzled out after either that session or the next one so I never really got to enjoy stomping around and being unable to fit through doorways in the Hive city we were exploring.