The major criticism of the term Oriental, as put forth by Edward Said in his book Orientalism as mentioned earlier, is that it is a narrow way of looking at history, and euro-centric.  Said doesn't say it's offensive in a racist sense, it's offensive because it assumes that oriental is other and different from occidental.

But both of those terms are still used, and I think oriental best fits the genre of games we are trying to categorize.  But if we are hesitant to pick it because some might be offended by it, Asian is the actual replacement for it in a history sense.  Oriental studies became Asian studies, and still fits the category of games we are trying to separate out.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:07, Tue 04 June 2013.

I think I'm out on this topic, until there's something new to discuss. I really don't feel like getting piled on over whether or not to include Eastern, and I don't have the kind of time required to respond to every response.

And that's not y'all's fault :-). I just happen to be the only one who can see the unassailable beauty and logic of my position, so I end up in disagreement with everyone ;-).

And really, for my own campaigns, I don't have to use it. And for my own searches in the past, I've never found the categories particularly useful, so "more useful" is still "more useful," even if I disagree with one or two categories.

I apologize.  Got a little riled up about the topic.  Too many historical methods classes.
For me it's still

+1 western
+1 oriental

if oriental is deemed offensive, then +1 Asian or Eastern.

I still think Early-Modern would work better than historical, since I think some medieval games may use historical as well, but I don't really know.  The term means something different to me I guess.  A historical game, to me, would be one that focuses on actual historical events, not just set in a medieval or ancient setting.  So a game about the war of the roses in England would be historical medieval drama, or something of that nature.  But if the majority of historical games are set between medieval and contemporary, then I guess the term is working as intended.

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 237):

It seems to me that you are basing your argument on something you read in a book.  Not to be mean, but does that have any relevence to our (and our friends'/fellow gamers') thoughts and reactions?  I would think that personal experience would be the best evidence to consider here.  And from my experience, I agree with FallingMorning wholeheartedly.

I'm not sure what you mean by basing my argument on what I read in a book.  If you are referring to the orientalism argument, that's because Said's book WAS brought up earlier as a bases for why orientalism is a biased term.

In terms of the historical, it's what I use in my experience.  I am running a dark ages vampire game, but didn't pick the historical tag because vampires aren't exactly a part of real history.  To me historical implies roleplay revolving around actual events.  But again, that is probably just how I see it.  If the current historical games are games based in settings between medieval and modern, then the term is working just fine, and doesn't need replaced with early modern.

In context of the discussion that quote was part of, I was trying to express how broad Eastern as a category would be.  :D

---

I should really knock it off with that 'sleeping' stuff; I miss so much!

I'm going to bow out for further discussion on the Oriental/Orient issue.  I know what it is to me, I know that for others it doesn't seem to carry the same negative connotation, but I had hoped that there would be at least some concession toward avoiding hurtful terms.   On that matter I do also understand that it can potentially be crippling to bow to any one set of morals since you would then also be expected to respect other such mindsets as well.

I greatly appreciated the discussion, and I look forward to the eventual results.  If a further vote comes up, everything is still as it was in my original ballot in terms of opinion: +Eastern, etc.

In reply to jase (msg # 233):

Okay, if everything else is locked in on vote count then I'll go:

+1 Eastern
+1 Western

^ But IF these more sensible votes don't make it, my backups are:
 Eastern/Oriental
 Western/Frontier

(as opposed to the less helpful and more confusing alternatives)

Hope that's not confusing.

I'll agree with arkrim, it seems like the best way to get a consensus.

And I apologize for nitpicking and arguing.  Internet forums sure do a good job of bringing that out of me.

so

+1 Eastern
+1 Western

or

+1 Eastern/Oriental
+1 Western/Frontier

I think a one word description would be better, but I also think eastern and western aren't really properly reflective of the 'wild west' or 'frontier' setting and 'oriental' or 'asian' setting on their own.

My vote remains unchanged. +1 Eastern/Oriental. +1 Western/Frontier.

I think the latest tally is...

 1)  Action/Adventure - New
 2)  Ancient - New
 3)  Anime - Existing
 4)  Arena - Existing
 5)  Comedy - Existing
 6)  Discussion - Compulsory
 7)  Fantasy - Existing
 8)  Frontier/Western - Renamed from Western
 9)  Future - New
10)  Historical - Existing
11)  Horror - Existing
12)  Intrigue - New
13)  Medieval - Existing
14)  Punk - Renamed from Cyberpunk
15)  RPoL Forums - Compulsory
16)  Sci-Fi - Existing
17)  Strategy - Existing
18)  Superhuman - Renamed from Super Hero
19)  Supernatural - Merge of Vampire and Werewolf
20)  Survival - New

21)  Post Holocaust - Rename

• Apocalyptic - FallingMorning, Lunarius, bigbadron, ErrantKnight, arkrim, Utsukushi, adrasteia1, seasong, jmkool, erbridge
• Apocalyptic/Disaster - Skald, Low Key, Nightowl, Shannara, Seahawk, BlackRavyn
  Options voted out - Remove, Holocaust, Cataclysmic, Disaster, Post Holocaust

22)  Drama, Romance, Relationship - New

• Drama - Lunarius, Lancebreaker, ErrantKnight, arkrim, Low Key, seasong, jmkool
• Romance - Piestar, Skald, Brygun, adrasteia1, Shannara, BlackRavyn, Nightowl
• Drama/Romance - jmurrell, FallingMorning, erbridge
  Options no longer available - Do not include, Relationship, Drama/Relationship, Relationship/Romance

23)  Asian, Eastern, Oriental - New

• Eastern - ErrantKnight, Brygun, jmkool
• Oriental - bigbadron, Seahawk
• Eastern/Oriental - Skald, adrasteia1, Shannara, FallingMorning, arkrim, erbridge, gladiusdei
  Options no longer available - Do not include, Asian, Asian/Eastern, Asian/Oriental, Exotic Culture

24)  Contemporary - Rename

• Contemporary - FallingMorning, Lunarius, Lancebreaker, bigbadron, Skald, Low Key, Shannara, Seahawk, seasong, Nightowl, jmkool, erbridge
• Modern - Piestar, ErrantKnight, Brygun, arkrim, adrasteia1, BlackRavyn, rogar308
  Options no longer available - Do not include, Contemporary/Modern
  (Still wondering if "Contemporary/Modern" will be the only way of satisfying most, as we're fairly split here.)

Options have haven't received enough votes are now considered not available -- they were put forward but failed to garner sufficient support.  Those who did vote on an option that's now been removed might like to revote.

Feel free to offer other alternatives, but I don't think there's any reason to rehash options that clearly aren't popular.

If Oriental is still causing much stir, may I suggest "Eastern/Wuxia" again?  It was never officially put forward so hasn't been voted off the island... yet.  (c;



A good question, and yes.  There's only an overlap of 20 games, the other 49 Pokemon/Digimon games will add to the Anime category.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:13, Wed 05 June 2013.

In reply to jase (msg # 247):

Wuxia seems very much its own genre, but you can have an Eastern setting without wuxia.

I'd switch my vote to Eastern/Wuxia.  It balances nicely with Frontier/Western - two genres which are also not necessarily "joined at the hip", but are often associated with each other.  :)

23)  Asian, Eastern, Oriental - New

• Eastern - ErrantKnight, Brygun, jmkool
• Oriental - bigbadron, Seahawk
• Eastern/Oriental - Skald, adrasteia1, Shannara, FallingMorning, arkrim, erbridge, gladiusdei
• Eastern/Wuxia - bigbadron
  Options no longer available - Do not include, Asian, Asian/Eastern, Asian/Oriental, Exotic Culture

Failing that, Eastern (which is what I originally suggested way up there somewhere... )
This message was last edited by the user at 10:48, Wed 05 June 2013.

Oh yes, given that option I'd switch to Eastern/Wuxia in a heartbeat. Great idea jase. Other votes remain unchanged for obvious reasons.

+1 Eastern/Wuxia
+1 Western/Frontier (instead of Frontier/Western)

And I'm in agreement with bigbadron. Failing Eastner/Wuxia, I'll switch back to Eastern.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:23, Wed 05 June 2013.

Always happy to follow the trendsetters ... yup, count me in too as a switch to Eastern/Wuxia (and similarly failing that, Eastern). :>

Western/Frontier arrangement does seem logical sitting next to that.

My vote for Eastern seems not to be counted.

21)  Post Holocaust - Rename

• Apocalyptic - FallingMorning, Lunarius, bigbadron, ErrantKnight, arkrim, Utsukushi, adrasteia1, seasong, jmkool, erbridge
• Apocalyptic/Disaster - Skald, Low Key, Nightowl, Shannara, Seahawk, BlackRavyn, jmurrell.

23)  Asian, Eastern, Oriental - New

• Eastern - ErrantKnight, Brygun, jmkool
• Oriental - Seahawk
• Eastern/Oriental - Skald, adrasteia1, Shannara, FallingMorning, arkrim, erbridge, gladiusdei
• Eastern/Wuxia - bigbadron, jmurrell

24)  Contemporary - Rename

• Contemporary - FallingMorning, Lunarius, Lancebreaker, bigbadron, Skald, Low Key, Shannara, Seahawk, seasong, Nightowl, jmkool, erbridge
• Modern - Piestar, ErrantKnight, Brygun, arkrim, adrasteia1, BlackRavyn, rogar308
• Options no longer available - Do not include, Contemporary/Modern
  (Still wondering if "Contemporary/Modern" will be the only way of satisfying most, as we're fairly split here.)

I have no preference here, but given that Action/Adventure, Frontier/Western, and maybe Apocalyptic/Disaster, Drama/Romance, and Eastern/? are in, Contemporary/Modern could work as well.

21)  Post Holocaust - Rename

• Apocalyptic - FallingMorning, Lunarius, bigbadron, ErrantKnight, arkrim, Utsukushi, adrasteia1, seasong, jmkool, erbridge
• Apocalyptic/Disaster - Skald, Low Key, Nightowl, Shannara, Seahawk, BlackRavyn, jmurrell.

23)  Asian, Eastern, Oriental - New

• Eastern - ErrantKnight, Brygun, jmkool, Lunarius
• Oriental - Seahawk
• Eastern/Oriental - Skald, adrasteia1, Shannara, FallingMorning, arkrim, erbridge, gladiusdei
• Eastern/Wuxia - bigbadron, jmurrell

24)  Contemporary - Rename

• Contemporary - FallingMorning, Lunarius, Lancebreaker, bigbadron, Skald, Low Key, Shannara, Seahawk, seasong, Nightowl, jmkool, erbridge
• Modern - Piestar, ErrantKnight, Brygun, arkrim, adrasteia1, BlackRavyn, rogar308
• Options no longer available - Do not include, Contemporary/Modern

I believe gladiusdei also stated an interest in Eastern & Western, but failing those he also had backup votes.  If I've understood correctly.

21)  Post Holocaust - Rename

• Apocalyptic - FallingMorning, Lunarius, bigbadron, ErrantKnight, arkrim, Utsukushi, adrasteia1, seasong, jmkool, erbridge
• Apocalyptic/Disaster - Skald, Low Key, Nightowl, Shannara, Seahawk, BlackRavyn, jmurrell.

23)  Asian, Eastern, Oriental - New

• Eastern - ErrantKnight, Brygun, jmkool, Lunarius, gladiusdei
• Oriental - Seahawk
• Eastern/Oriental - adrasteia1, Shannara, FallingMorning, arkrim, erbridge, gladiusdei
• Eastern/Wuxia - arkrim, bigbadron, jmurrell, Skald

24)  Contemporary - Rename

• Contemporary - FallingMorning, Lunarius, Lancebreaker, bigbadron, Skald, Low Key, Shannara, Seahawk, seasong, Nightowl, jmkool, erbridge
• Modern - Piestar, ErrantKnight, Brygun, arkrim, adrasteia1, BlackRavyn, rogar308
• Options no longer available - Do not include, Contemporary/Modern

Skald and arkrim had switched to Eastern/Wuxia.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:14, Wed 05 June 2013.

In reply to jase (msg # 247):

For the ones still voting on not already showing me:


21) Apocalyptic/Disaster (not showing me)

I'll keep it nice, short and simple to avoid expansive verbal typing of extranous repeatitive phrasology. - too late

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 255):

I also switched to Eastern/Wuxia. *teary puppy eyes*

In reply to arkrim (msg # 257):

That's what I said.  :)

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 255):

I believe gladiusdei stated that his vote was split between two titles, if you list him in one he should be listed in both.

23)  Asian, Eastern, Oriental - New

• Eastern - ErrantKnight, Brygun, jmkool, Lunarius, gladiusdei, arkrim
• Oriental - Seahawk
• Eastern/Oriental - adrasteia1, Shannara, FallingMorning, arkrim, erbridge, gladiusdei
• Eastern/Wuxia - arkrim, bigbadron, jmurrell, Skald

There we go. ^_^

I think we should limit voting to one per person per category.  If not then we have to allocate a fraction to each vote (with our fractions totalling 1 each) so that people don't get multiple votes.

That's why I haven't voted on a lot of stuff, can't decide which one I like the most.